Asbestos at Johns Manville New Jersey Caused Mesothelioma

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. MID-L-3955-05

3 WILLIAM AVON, JR., and
JOAN AVON, his wife, VIDEOTAPE
4 Plaintiffs DEPOSITION UNDER
ORAL EXAMINATION
5 vs OF
WILLIAM AVON
6 3-M COMPANY, f/k/a
MINNESOTA MINING AND MANUFACTURING
7 COMPANY, et al.,
Defendants
8 ______________________________

9 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the

10 witness, called for Oral Examination in the

11 above-captioned matter, said deposition being

12 taken pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice

13 and Procedure by and before MIRIAM ALFANO, a Notary

14 Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State

15 of New Jersey, at the COURTYARD MARRIOTT, 245 Half

16 Mile Road, Red Bank, New Jersey, on Tuesday,

17 August 15, 2006, commencing at approximately 1:15

18 in the afternoon.

21
BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC.
22 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS & VIDEOGRAPHERS
90 Woodbridge Center Drive, Suite 220
23 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095
(732) 283-5737
24

1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

3 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.

4 115 Maple Avenue

5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701

6 (732) 747-9003

7 BY: CHRISTHOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ.

8 MICHAEL FERRARA, ESQ.

9 Attorneys for Plaintiffs

11 WEITZ & LUXENBERG, P.C.

12 180 Maiden Lane

13 New York, New York 10038

14 (212) 558-5500

15 BY: CHRISTOPHER ROMANELLI, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Plaintiffs

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

3 HOFHEIMER, GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP

4 530 Fifth Avenue

5 New York, New York 10036

6 (212) 944-0500

7 BY: BONNIE TUCKER, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American Corp.

10 PICILLO, CARUSO & OTOOLE, P.C.

11 371 Franklin Avenue

12 Nutley, New Jersey 07110

13 (973) 667-6000

14 BY: RONALD S. SUSS, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendants, CertainTeed,

16 Union Carbide

18 McCARTER & ENGLISH, LLP

19 100 Mulberry Street, Gateway 4

20 Newark, New Jersey 07102

21 (973) 622-4444

22 BY: MITCHELL KURTZ, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Uniroyal

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

3 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH

4 1600 Market Street, 33rd Floor

5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103

6 (215) 979-8200

7 BY: MADHURIKA JEREMIAH, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, ACL and Bell

10 KENT & McBRIDE, P.C.

11 555 Route 1 South

12 Woodbridge Towers, 4th Floor

13 Iselin, New Jersey 08830

14 (732) 326-1711

15 BY: THOMAS F. VERRASTRO, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendant, Mine Safety Appliances

18 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C.

19 23 Vreeland Road

20 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

21 (973) 822-1110

22 BY: NANCY GIACUMBO, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Hollingsworth & Vose

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

3 WADE, CLARK, MULCAHY

4 917 Mountain Avenue

5 Moutainside, New Jersey 07092

6 (908) 789-1681

7 BY: ROBERT F. BALL, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Mitsui & Company

10 BRESSLER, AMERY & ROSS, P.C.

11 325 Columbia Turnpike

12 Florham Park, New York 07932

13 (973) 514-1200

14 BY: RICHARD V. JONES, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Metropolitan Life

16 Insurance Co.

18 McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP

19 1300 Mt. Kemble Avenue

20 P.O. Box 2075

21 Morristown, New Jersey 07962

22 (973) 993-8100

23 BY: JOSEPH D. RASNEK, ESQ.

24 Attorneys for Defendant, Occidental Chemical

25 Corporation

1 A L S O P R E S E N T:

3 CARMINE GIULIANO, Videographer

4 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES

5 90 Woodbridge Center Drive

6 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095

7 (732) 283-5737

9 JOAN AVON, Plaintiff

1 I N D E X

3 WITNESS NAME PAGE NO.

5 WILLIAM AVON

7 Direct by Mr. Placitella 18

8 Cross by Mr. Rasnek 92

9 Cross by Mr. Suss 118

10 Cross by Mr. Kurtz 121

13 E X H I B I T S

15 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO.

17 Avon-1 Vendor list with attached

18 Vendors, seven pages 8

20 Avon-2 Vendor list with attached

21 Vendors, nine pages 8

1 (A vendor list with attached

2 Vendors, seven pages, is marked

3 as Avon-1 for Identification.)

4 (A vendor list with attached

5 Vendors, nine pages, is marked

6 as Avon-2 for Identification.)

7 MR. RASNEK: Joe Rasnek.

8 McElroy, Deutsch, Mulvaney &

9 Carpenter.

10 Ive had conversations with

11 Mr. Placitella about this deposition.

12 My position is we were not noticed of

13 the discovery depositions and had no

14 opportunity to appear.

15 I have talked with

16 Mr. Placitella about that issue. Hes

17 agreed to have a discovery deposition

18 either later today or at some

19 subsequent date, so weve resolved

20 that issue.

21 I object to this videotape being

22 used against Occidental at this point.

23 MR. PLACITELLA: My response is

24 that you were given notice. Your

25 client was served, actually, June 1st.

1 Faxes went out.

2 With that being said, I still

3 said you could have the opportunity to

4 ask him questions if you wanted to.

5 When that would happen would depend on

6 how he feels at the end of my

7 questioning.

8 MR. RASKAK: I appreciate that

9 with respect to the notice issue. I

10 would note that the dates of

11 employment and the complaint are

12 incorrect, so that there was some

13 issue as to that notice as well.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

15 MR. SUSS: Yes, Chris. I also

16 wanted to just state — and I dont

17 know how the Direct testimony is going

18 to come out, so theres no way to know

19 for certain — but its been suggested

20 that the Direct testimony may rely, on

21 part, on some of the documents that

22 were in Mr. Avons possession.

23 To the extent that it is, Im

24 going to object, only because when we

25 had an opportunity to do the Direct

1 Examination, he indicated that he

2 hadnt reviewed any documents prior to

3 his discovery deposition.

4 And if, in fact, he has reviewed

5 documents in between the discovery

6 deposition and now, I think we

7 certainly should have been informed

8 and had the right to know which of the

9 documents that he might rely on.

10 And I say that particularly

11 because there were some documents

12 which have been presented to counsel

13 here today in which, namely, one of my

14 clients appears, and we may be

15 prejudiced by that procedure.

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Can I respond

17 to that one?

18 There are two documents which I

19 handed Mr. Suss out of all the

20 documents that were there that he had

21 some knowledge of, and I intend to ask

22 him questions about it.

23 If you want to ask him questions

24 about it, youre free to do so. Okay?

25 MS. GIACUMBO: It was stipulated

1 and agreed among counsel that were

2 reserving all objections as to form

3 during the videotape deposition.

4 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.

5 MS. GIACUMBO: And I suppose if

6 any discovery deposition takes place

7 as well thereafter, and also on behalf

8 of my client, I had requested an

9 opportunity to ask limited discovery

10 questions based upon on your limited,

11 and still incomplete, ability to

12 review the documents that were

13 produced at the plaintiffs deposition

14 on July 26, 2006.

15 I had made the request that for

16 the time after the video Direct, off

17 the video, and before the video Cross

18 today. And plaintiffs counsel has

19 indicated earlier he has not yet made

20 a determination as to whether hes

21 going to agree to this.

22 And in the event that he does

23 not, then we reserve all rights and

24 objections to the testimony, based

25 upon our inability to do this, as well

1 as the introduction of any documents

2 at the time of trial.

3 MR. PLACITELLA: Dont let my

4 silence be interpreted as acquiescence

5 to your statements.

6 MR. VERRASTRO: Tom Verrastro,

7 with Kent & McBride, on behalf of Mine

8 Safety Appliances.

9 My appearance today does not

10 waive any rights of my client due to

11 the right of service of process.

12 MR. KURTZ: I join in that my

13 appearance does not waive any rights

14 to service of process.

15 MS. GIACUMBO: We do as well.

16 MS. JEREMIAH: My name is

17 Madjurika Jerermiah from Goldfein &

18 Joseph. My appearance at this

19 deposition does not constitute a

20 waiver of service or any waiver of any

21 objections regarding jurisdiction on

22 behalf of any of my clients.

23 Also, I object to the use of

24 some of the photographs that was

25 passed out by plaintiffs counsel with

1 photographs of bags of fiber. I

2 object to their relevancy and

3 authenticity.

4 The plaintiff was questioned

5 regarding certain defendants shown on

6 those photographs, and he did not have

7 any knowledge.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Are you saying,

9 for the record, that you showed him

10 photographs?

11 MS. JEREMIAH: No. Im saying I

12 specifically questioned him about it

13 at his discovery deposition, and he

14 was not aware of any.

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Thats

16 fine.

17 Anybody else?

18 (No response given.)

19 MR. PLACITELLA: Maybe I

20 shouldnt use these documents. They

21 only help you.

22 Do you want to withdraw the

23 objection?

24 MS. GIACUMBO: No. The

25 objection was generalized as to any

1 documents.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: These documents

3 may actually help you. So maybe

4 youll want to decide what you really

5 want to object to.

6 By the way, for the record, I

7 faxed these documents to your office

8 earlier in the week, these very

9 documents. Just so the record is –

10 MS. GIACUMBO: Two of them.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Those are the

12 two documents that I have, yes.

13 MS. GIACUMBO: Again, I state my

14 objection. It was generalized to all

15 documents.

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Just so the

17 record is clear.

18 MS. GIACUMBO: And was reserving

19 my rights.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: Of course.

21 I passed around

22 some photos. Before we start, does

23 anybody want to ask the plaintiff any

24 questions about the photos?

25 MS. JEREMIAH: Are you going to

1 mark these?

2 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just going

3 to show them to him.

4 (Discussion off record.)

5 VIDEOGRAPHER: My name is

6 Carmine Giuliano of Brody Deposition

7 Services, located in Woodbridge, New

8 Jersey. The date today is August

9 15th, 2006. And the time is

10 approximately 1:19 p.m.

11 This deposition is being held on

12 the Courtyard Marriott located at 245

13 Half Mile Road, Red Bank, New Jersey.

14 The caption of this case is

15 William Avon, Jr. and Joan Avon, his

16 wife, versus 3-M Company, f/k/a,

17 Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing

18 Company, et al, in the Superior Court

19 of New Jersey, Law Division, Middlesex

20 County. Docket number MID-L-3955-05.

21 The name of the witness is William

22 Avon.

23 At this time the attorneys will

24 identify themselves and the party they

25 represent, after which our court

1 reporter, Miriam Alfano, will swear

2 the witness and we will proceed.

3 MS. GIACUMBO: Nancy Giacumbo,

4 McGivney & Kluger, on behalf of

5 Hollingsworth & Vose.

6 MS. JEREMIAH: Madhurika

7 Jeremiah from Goldfein & Joseph, on

8 behalf of ACL and Bell.

9 MS. TUCKER: Bonnie Tucker of

10 Hofheimer, Gartlir & Gross, on behalf

11 of Rapid American.

12 MR. KURTZ: Mitchell Kurtz from

13 McCarter & English on behalf of

14 Uniroyal.

15 MR. JONES: Richard V. Jones,

16 Bressler, Amery & Ross, on behalf of

17 Metropolitan Life Insurance Company.

18 MR. RASNEK: Joseph Rasnek,

19 McElroy, Deutsch, Mulvany & Carpenter,

20 for Occidental Chemical Corporation.

21 MR. BALL: Robert Ball. Wade,

22 Clark & Mulcahy, for Mitsui & Company.

23 MR. SUSS: Ronald L. Suss from

24 Picillo, Caruso, OToole, on behalf of

25 CertainTeed Corporation and Union

1 Carbide Corporation.

2 MR. FERRARA: Michael Ferrara,

3 Cohen, Placitella & Roth, on behalf of

4 the plaintiff, William Avon.

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Christopher

6 Placitella on behalf of plaintiff,

7 William Avon.

8 MR. ROMANELLI: Chris

9 Romanelli, Weitz & Luxenberg, for the

10 plaintiff.

1 W I L L I A M A V O N,

2 17 Applesauce Lane, Wappinger Falls,

3 New York, 12590, called as a witness,

4 having been first duly sworn

5 according to law,

6 testifies as follows:

8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY PLACITELLA:

10 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Avon. How

11 are you?

12 A Chris, fine.

13 Q Good. Were here to take your

14 sworn testimony as if you were testifying at

15 trial.

16 Do you understand that?

17 A Yes, I do.

18 Q Okay. And it will be up to the

19 jury to consider your testimony, along with

20 all the other evidence. And your testimony

21 will help the jury decide the merits of the

22 case.

23 Do you understand that?

24 A Yes, I do.

25 Q Now, at you sit here today, do

1 you have an understanding as to whether you

2 are suffering from any kind of disease?

3 A Yes, I am.

4 Q And what disease is that?

5 A Mesothelioma.

6 Q Okay. Do you have an

7 understanding about what, if anything, caused

8 that disease?

9 A I was told that asbestos created the

10 disease.

11 Q All right. And who told you

12 that?

13 A Dr. Taub.

14 Q Where do you — where do you

15 believe — or scratch that.

16 Do you believe you were exposed

17 to asbestos during the course of your life?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Where do you think that

20 happened?

21 A Johns-Manville.

22 Q Is that, you believe to be true?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Now, you live where?

25 A Presently Wappinger Falls, New York.

1 Q And who — you have to try to

2 look at the camera somewhat.

3 A (Witness nods head.).

4 Q Okay. Are you married?

5 A Yes, I am.

6 Q Who are you married to?

7 A Joan. Joan M.

8 Q And how long have you been

9 married?

10 A September 6th, 1969. 37 years.

11 Q Do you have any children?

12 A Two older boys, or two boys.

13 Q And what are their names?

14 A William and Robert.

15 Q And what about grandkids, do you

16 have any grandkids?

17 A We have a new grandchild, the first

18 one, born December 9th.

19 Q And the childs name is?

20 A Chloe Grace.

21 Q And how often do you get to see

22 your children and your grandchildren?

23 A Sometimes daily; sometimes on a weekly

24 basis.

25 Q Can you give us the benefit of

1 your education? How far did you go in

2 school?

3 A I graduated high school and then took

4 night courses in Ryder College in Somerset

5 County College.

6 Q And where did you grow up?

7 A Basically, New Jersey.

8 Q When you say basically, what do

9 you mean by that?

10 A Well, throughout my life time I had

11 moved. But my adult life, basically I grew

12 up in New Jersey.

13 Q And what about high school,

14 where did you graduate from?

15 A Somerville, New Jersey.

16 Q And when you were in high

17 school, did you do any — what kind of

18 activities did you participate in?

19 A Various sports. Nothing specific.

20 Just general.

21 Q Okay. Now, Im have in front of

22 you on the screen a picture. Can you

23 describe that picture, what that is, what

24 that depicts?

25 A Thats the picture of our wedding.

1 September 6th, 1969.

2 Q And thats you and Joan?

3 A And Joan.

4 Q And I see the hairlines a

5 little bit more solid in that picture.

6 A Yes, it is.

7 Q Where were you married?

8 A South Plainfield, New Jersey.

9 Q And is that at the reception?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Where was the reception, do you

12 remember?

13 A It was at a — one of the American

14 Legions in South Plainfield, New Jersey.

15 Q Now, this next picture I put up,

16 can you tell us what this is a picture of?

17 Do you recognize these people, by the way?

18 A Sure do. Thats, basically thats my

19 family.

20 Q Is that the Avon clan?

21 A Thats the Avon clan, and also my

22 sons-in-laws.

23 Q And thats your new grandchild?

24 A Thats Chloe Grace. Thats correct.

25 Q When was this taken?

1 A That was at the baptismal in April.

2 Q And was that a happy time for

3 you?

4 A Extremely happy.

5 Q Now, I want to just step back a

6 little bit. And can you tell me who this

7 good looking guy is here on this picture?

8 A Thats when I guess I was fairly

9 decent looking. Thats me at a picnic.

10 Q And who sponsored that picnic,

11 if you remember?

12 A Johns-Manville.

13 Q Now, did you — when did you go

14 to work for Johns-Manville?

15 A 1956.

16 Q What brought you, why did you go

17 to work for Johns-Manville?

18 A Why did I go to work for

19 Johns-Manville? Basically because my dad

20 worked for Johns-Manville and I thought it

21 was a good living.

22 Q And how long did he work for

23 Johns-Manville?

24 A Roughly, my dad worked there roughly

25 20 — 28 years.

1 Q And he lived at home with you

2 while he worked for Manville?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And when he came home from work

5 who laundered his clothes?

6 A My mom.

7 Q Do you know whether he had the

8 opportunity to change his clothes at work, or

9 did that always happen at home?

10 A That always happened at home.

11 Q When you worked at

12 Johns-Manville yourself, how do you believe

13 you were exposed to asbestos generally?

14 Let me ask the question this

15 way: Did you ever have the opportunity to

16 actually work in processes that involved

17 asbestos?

18 A Yes. The — both the finishing end

19 and the wet end.

20 Q Did you ever have the

21 opportunity to be exposed as a bystander? Do

22 you know what I mean by bystander?

23 A Not exactly.

24 Q Did you ever have the

25 opportunity to be exposed when you werent

1 physically handling the product but you were

2 near somebody else handling an asbestos or

3 asbestos-containing product?

4 A Throughout Johns-Manville. Throughout

5 the pipe plant, yes.

6 Q Now, when you first went to work

7 at Johns-Manville, that was 1956?

8 A Thats correct.

9 Q And what was your job in 1956?

10 How old were you, do you remember, by the

11 way?

12 A Sixteen and a half, barely seventeen.

13 Q You were at Somerset High School

14 then?

15 A Somerville, yes.

16 Q Somerville High School.

17 A Uh-huh.

18 Q Was that a summer job?

19 A Yes, it was.

20 Q And what was your job in 1956

21 for the summer?

22 A I worked in the service organization

23 called the yard gang.

24 Q And did you have that job at any

25 subsequent period of time?

1 A Only during the summer at

2 Johns-Manville.

3 Q Did you work for Manville the

4 next summer?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q What would you do at the yard

7 gang? What was your job?

8 A As I said, we were a service

9 organization or a service group. We would

10 perform anything that they asked us to do,

11 whether it be clean-up or moving things

12 around or repairing something.

13 I worked at clean-up and from

14 clean-up, all the way up to installing rails

15 and rail sidings.

16 Q Did you work in every building

17 or some of the buildings? What buildings did

18 you work in?

19 A Throughout — throughout the time I

20 put in the yard gang, we were probably in

21 every building there was in Johns-Manville.

22 Q When you worked in every

23 building in Johns-Manville, do you believe

24 you were exposed to asbestos in those

25 buildings as a yard gang member?

1 A Primarily the pipe division, but Im

2 sure there was asbestos in other areas.

3 Q And when you say the pipe

4 division, what building are you talking

5 about?

6 A Thats the I-Buiding.

7 Q Now, I want to talk a little bit

8 about I-Buiding with you. What did they make

9 in I-Buiding?

10 A Basically the transite pipe and

11 fittings, which would be sewer and water

12 pipe.

13 Q Okay. Now, I have on the screen

14 a picture. Can you tell me what thats a

15 picture of, if you know?

16 A That happens to be a ten-inch sewer

17 pipe thats used for basically roads, or

18 whatever, into divisions that carry sewerage.

19 Q Now, and that was made in what

20 building?

21 A Thats in I-Buiding.

22 Q When you touch this pipe, when

23 it was all done being made, what did it feel

24 like?

25 A Cement.

1 Q Okay. Now, when you got out of

2 high school, did you go right into

3 I-Buiding?

4 A Yes.

5 Q All right. What year was that?

6 A 19 — early 58.

7 Q How many years in a row did you

8 work in I-Buiding before you took another

9 job?

10 A How many years did I work in

11 I-Buiding? I worked in I-Buiding until the

12 I-Buiding actually closed, other than a short

13 stint that I put in Chemtite pipe.

14 Q When you first got out of school

15 and started to work in I-Buiding, before you

16 left to do another job, what was that time

17 span?

18 A Up until 1964, I believe it was.

19 Q Okay. And when you worked in

20 I-Buiding from, say, 1958 to 1964, what were

21 your jobs?

22 A When I first started in I-Buiding you

23 started as clean-up. Utility person, whether

24 it be sweeping up, cleaning up scrap,

25 stenciling fittings, that type of thing.

1 After that I went to lathe

2 operations, which I operated on numerous

3 number of lathes, cut-off saws, that type of

4 thing.

5 Q Whats a lathe? What does that

6 mean, a late operate?

7 A Lathe operator is, its a machine that

8 you install or put in a coupling blank,

9 machine the inside out to accept the O-rings

10 to seal that piping — pipe together.

11 Q Did that process that you worked

12 on in the lathe generate dust in the process?

13 A Yes, it did.

14 Q Now, describe generally what the

15 inside of I-Buiding looked like.

16 A It was a huge building. It had

17 various number — in the finishing end it had

18 various number of pipe machines, which they

19 were long lathes, which machined the outside

20 of the pipe at the ends.

21 They had a numerous number of

22 coupling lathes, fitting lathes. They had an

23 epoxy department where they cut off fittings

24 and actually epoxyed them together for

25 special 45-degree laterals, et cetera.

1 And then toward the other end of

2 the building was the four wet end process

3 pipe machines where they actually

4 manufactured the pipe.

5 Q And was it an open building?

6 Did it have floor to ceiling walls? What did

7 it look like?

8 A It was a wide open, huge warehouse

9 filled with equipment.

10 Q So if you walked in one side of

11 the building, could you see the other side?

12 A For the exception of equipment, yes.

13 Q And if dust was generated in one

14 part of the building, would it travel

15 throughout the building?

16 A Yes, it would.

17 Q And what parts of the building

18 did you work in during that 1958 to 1964 time

19 period?

20 A We had occasion to go to the wet end

21 process, but the majority of time was spent

22 in the finishing end.

23 Q And that was on the lathe?

24 A Thats with the lathe, yes.

25 Q Did you also have occasion to do

1 fill-in work while you were there?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q What kind of fill-in work did

4 you do?

5 A You would work different lathes. And

6 also I would fill in as a truck driver,

7 whether it be a fork truck or platform truck

8 driver.

9 Q How did you get trained to do

10 that?

11 A On-the-job training.

12 Q Did the conditions change at all

13 over time when you were there from 58 to 64

14 in the plant?

15 A Conditions as far as dust or

16 environment?

17 Q Yes. Did it remain the same or

18 change? Thats what Im trying to assess.

19 A There wasnt — there wasnt a great

20 deal of change at that point. They might

21 have installed — they might have installed a

22 dust collector or additional dust pipes to

23 take dust away.

24 Q Okay. Now, if there was dust

25 generated in that plant during that time

1 period, would you have been in position to be

2 exposed to that dust?

3 A Yes, I would.

4 Q Okay. Now, when you worked in

5 the I-Buiding, did you actually see asbestos

6 fiber in its raw state?

7 A Yes, I did.

8 Q How would that happen? Where

9 would you see it? What would you see?

10 A I would see it coming in out of the

11 warehouse, which is the back end of

12 I-Buiding. It would be moved on pallites and

13 brought to what they call a willow station

14 where — thats where they opened up the

15 bags.

16 Q And how did the asbestos come in

17 to I-Buiding?

18 A Trucks, usually a flatbed truck or a

19 rail siding.

20 Q And how was the asbestos

21 packaged?

22 A On pallites.

23 Q Well, did it come in anything or

24 was it just sitting on a pallite?

25 A On no, they were just packaged sitting

1 on pallites.

2 Q It came in a package?

3 A Right.

4 Q Okay. How was it packaged?

5 A Usually 100-pound bags.

6 Q Now, when the bags came in, what

7 was physically done with them?

8 MR. RASNEK: Let me assert an

9 objection to the form. Are we talking

10 about 1958 to 1964 time frame?

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats correct.

12 A Im sorry?

13 Q What was done with the bags when

14 they came in during this time that you

15 observed?

16 Do you understand my question?

17 A No. Only that once they were — once

18 they came in, they were unloaded by the

19 shipping department, or whatever, and stored

20 in the warehouse.

21 Q All right. And then there came

22 a time when the bags, that the product was

23 used in the process?

24 A Yes.

25 Q What happened, what

1 physically — what was physically done with

2 the bag of asbestos?

3 A They were brought to, as I mentioned

4 before, the willows. The willows is an open

5 piece of equipment that the operator would

6 cut the bag and actually dump it into the

7 chute.

8 Q And were you present to witness

9 that happen?

10 A I witnessed it, yes.

11 Q Now, I put — go ahead.

12 A Let me just add that especially when

13 filling in as a fork truck driver, you

14 traveled throughout that whole building, and

15 a platform driver.

16 Q Now, I put up a picture.

17 Can you tell me whether this

18 accurately depicts what asbestos looked like

19 in its raw form when you were at Manville?

20 MR. JONES: Objection to form.

21 A The asbestos itself would look like

22 that, yes.

23 Q Okay. And when you say it would

24 look like that, what do you mean by that?

25 A The person that would be opening –

1 the operator that would be opening the bag,

2 wouldnt handle it in that way.

3 Q But the physical appearance of

4 the asbestos, thats what it looked like?

5 A Yes, absolutely.

6 Q Now, in 1964 did you leave

7 I-Buiding to do another job?

8 A Yes, I did. Thats when I went to

9 Chemtite pipe.

10 Q Okay.

11 A Im sorry, thats when I went to North

12 Carolina for training, and then I went on the

13 road.

14 Q Okay. Now, what was the purpose

15 for your going to North Carolina?

16 A To learn how to operate an

17 eighteen-wheel large trailer truck.

18 Q Now, did the trailer truck look

19 something like that?

20 A Very similar.

21 Q It had eighteen wheels. What

22 went on inside the trailer truck?

23 First of all, you went down

24 there for training?

25 A To North Carolina, thats correct.

1 Q Now what did they train you to

2 do?

3 A To actually operate a truck like that

4 legally all throughout the United States.

5 Q Okay. So you actually learned

6 to drive an eighteen wheeler?

7 A Thats correct.

8 Q Did you get certified or

9 anything? What kind –

10 A Yes, I was certified. Yes, I was

11 certified through North Carolina school.

12 Q So at that point you could have

13 left and become a truck driver and –

14 A Without question.

15 Q — and drove bird seed around if

16 you needed to?

17 A Without question. Thats what I did.

18 Q Okay. And what was your job

19 once you finished your training?

20 A We would — we would take the unit.

21 Our particular trailer was filled with

22 various testing equipment protectors and it

23 had bins.

24 The only difference in this

25 picture, as an example, they had bins all

1 across the bottom on both sides where we

2 stored samples, et cetera.

3 It was basically an educational

4 unit where we had hydrostatic tests,

5 corporation pull-outs, flex tests. And

6 again, movies to show the way pipe was

7 produced.

8 Q Now, when you were doing the

9 demonstrations, did you ever have to do

10 anything to the product, physically do

11 anything to the product?

12 A Yes, we actually, depending on the

13 tests that we performed, we actually

14 destroyed the product.

15 Q Did that process create dust?

16 A At times it did, yes.

17 Q And would you be in the vicinity

18 of the dust when that was created?

19 A Yes, because I was handling equipment.

20 Q When you worked in this job –

21 what was it called, by the way? Did it have

22 a name?

23 A Pipe mobile.

24 Q Pipe mobile, okay. When you

25 worked in the pipe mobile, did you visit any

1 Manville plants other than the plant in

2 Manville, New Jersey?

3 A Yes, I did.

4 Q And what plants did you visit?

5 A Waukegan, which was Johns-Manvilles

6 oldest plant. Dennison, Texas. Marrero, on

7 one occasion. I believe it was Savannah.

8 And I dont believe we visited the other

9 plants.

10 Q And what was the purpose of

11 going in those plants?

12 A We would — when we traveled

13 throughout the country, we had two units.

14 One basically was — took care of the central

15 East Coast, and the other one, central West

16 Coast.

17 When we traveled throughout the

18 country, whether it be to town fathers or

19 engineering colleges or whatever, we would

20 literally destroy our samples. So we had to

21 replenish.

22 Q And when you went into these

23 other Manville plants, would you be exposed

24 to asbestos in those plants?

25 A Oh, absolutely. Yes.

1 Q Now, how long did you keep that

2 job in the pipe mobile?

3 A Just under two years. A year and ten

4 months, I believe it was.

5 Q And after you left the pipe

6 mobile, what was your next job?

7 A Supervisor of Chemtite pipe.

8 Q And is that the product that we

9 have up there on the screen?

10 A Thats some of the products, yes.

11 Q And what was your job as

12 supervisor for Chemtite pipe?

13 A To oversee the manufacture and finish

14 and shipping of Chemtite pipe and fittings.

15 Q But how long — well, let me

16 start again, okay?

17 About what year was that when

18 you went to work in Chemtite pipe?

19 A Im going to — its going to be

20 roughly 66. 65, 66.

21 Q How long did you stay in that

22 job?

23 A I believe it was 70. 70 plus,

24 maybe.

25 Q What was Chemtite pipe? What

1 was that used for?

2 A Chemtite pipe was a chemical process

3 pipe. We made three different types; an

4 epoxy, phenolic and polyester. And it was

5 for processing different types of chemicals.

6 Q Okay. And in that process, do

7 you know whether or not asbestos was used?

8 A It was.

9 Q Okay. Did you observe asbestos

10 being used?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What kind of asbestos was used

13 in that process, if you know?

14 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the

15 form. Two different processes.

16 Q What kind of asbestos did you

17 observe in the Chemtite pipe building?

18 A I believe that the asbestos, Bell is

19 the most common. So Im going to say Bell

20 asbestos. Thats in the raw state.

21 And then the only other

22 asbestos, besides the billets being made for

23 fittings, the only other asbestos was the

24 rolls of asbestos, reinforced paper.

25 Q So there were two different

1 kinds of asbestos-containing products used

2 there?

3 A Yes.

4 Q One was a fiber?

5 A Thats correct.

6 Q And the other was paper, is that

7 what youre saying?

8 A Thats correct.

9 Q Okay. Now, what did the

10 asbestos paper look like that came in?

11 A Huge rolls of toilet paper wrapped in

12 craft paper.

13 Q And what was that used for in

14 the processes in the Chemtite building?

15 A That would go through the, what they

16 call a saturation process. Rerolled,

17 rewrapped. And then those finished pieces,

18 after it was saturated, would go to the pipe

19 machine and they would wrap and make chemical

20 pipe, Chemtite pipe.

21 Q Okay. What, if anything, would

22 happen in the rolling out of the asbestos

23 paper?

24 A In that particular process, that was

25 the dustier area, if you will. Thats what

1 youre referring to or asking me. You

2 would — it would be unrolled, go through a

3 looper, and then through a saturation fan and

4 into an oven to dry to a certain degree, and

5 then be rewrapped at the other end, rerolled.

6 Q Did some part of that process

7 you just described create dust?

8 A The unrolling, if you will, where they

9 fed the machine would be a little dustier

10 than the front end of the machine.

11 Q Okay. And how often would you

12 observe that process?

13 A As a supervisor, I couldnt tell you

14 the number of times. But every time I walked

15 by the machine or checked something out, I

16 would see the operation.

17 Q Now, would you be in a position

18 to be exposed to the dust that was generated

19 in that process?

20 A Oh, yes.

21 Q Did there come a time when your

22 job changed in Chemtite from production

23 supervisor to something else?

24 A Yes. At one point in time I left the

25 same building, but I left the production

1 supervisor and became a planning and

2 scheduling supervisor.

3 Q And for how long did you have

4 that job?

5 A Im going to estimate about a year and

6 a half.

7 Q Where did you have more exposure

8 to asbestos as the production supervisor, or

9 planning and scheduling?

10 A Production supervisor.

11 Q Now, when you were in planning

12 and scheduling did you still have occasion to

13 go back into the plant?

14 A Oh yes, yes.

15 Q And how often would you do that?

16 A Several times a day.

17 Q Now, you stayed on that job

18 until, you said, around 1970 plus, correct?

19 A Yes. We ended up, thats when we

20 ended up, or Johns-Manville ended up, selling

21 the operation.

22 Q And what was the next job you

23 had after that operation was sold?

24 A After a three-month stint of helping

25 the new owner set the operation up, then I

1 went to I-Buiding as a production supervisor.

2 Q Okay. And do you recognize any

3 of these logos or pictures from the time you

4 were in I-Buiding?

5 A Absolutely.

6 Q What do you recognize?

7 A All of it, actually. Transite

8 pressure pipe refers to a water pipe. The

9 pressure pipe with Ring-Tite couplings. A

10 Ring-Tite coupling would be — could be used

11 for any designation, meaning water or sewer.

12 Q Okay. Now, you went back into

13 the I-Buiding now around 1970 or 1971. What

14 was your job?

15 A Please repeat that.

16 Q What was your job title when you

17 went back into the I-Buiding after leaving

18 Chemtite?

19 A Production supervisor.

20 Q And what was your job? What did

21 you have to do there?

22 A I was — when I first left Chemtite I

23 went to the wet end, which is the manufacture

24 of pipe and fittings in the raw state.

25 Q When you say wet end, why do you

1 call it wet end?

2 A All the — that was the machines.

3 They were wet machines. All the ingredients

4 were in a dry state. Then they were put

5 through a mixer. Once they left the mixer,

6 they — water was added to it. It became a

7 slurry and thats when the pipe was produced.

8 Q Now, when you say ingredients,

9 what ingredients are you talking about?

10 A Asbestos fiber, silicate and cement.

11 Q When you say silicate, what do

12 you mean by that?

13 A Silica is a sand. A brown, pulverized

14 brown sand.

15 Q Would it come already

16 pulverized?

17 A No, we had our own — I-Buiding had

18 its own ball mill. Sand would come in in

19 dump trucks, as a rule. Just dumped on the

20 ground outside, and then conveyored into

21 the — through the ball mill.

22 Q Would all of those ingredients

23 create dust?

24 A Absolutely.

25 Q Now, during the time — how long

1 did you stay in I-Buiding, the second time

2 you went back as a production supervisor?

3 A Until they actually closed down.

4 Q When was that?

5 A Mid 70s.

6 Q And when you were in the

7 I-Buiding during the 1970s working there,

8 what areas of the plant would you be in on a

9 daily basis?

10 A Basically the whole plant. We would

11 be throughout, whether it be the warehouse,

12 wet end or finishing end, we would be

13 throughout the whole plant.

14 Q Now, before I asked you about

15 the product. Is that the product, is that

16 what the product looked like when it went

17 into the wet end?

18 A In bags, but yes.

19 Q Thats what it looked like out

20 of the bags?

21 A Out of the bags, yes.

22 Q Now, after you left the

23 I-Buiding, what was the next job you had?

24 A When I-Buiding — when I-Buiding

25 closed, I went to the F-Building, which is

1 the roofing — roofing shingles.

2 Q Is that the building you worked

3 in, asbestos roofing felt?

4 A Thats correct.

5 Q And at that point in time was

6 asbestos actually being used in the shingles?

7 A Not in the — when I got there, the

8 the shingles were actually fiberglass

9 reinforced.

10 Q And how long did you work in

11 this job?

12 A To roughly 1980.

13 Q And do you believe during this

14 job that you had asbestos exposure?

15 A I would say there was some asbestos

16 exposure. Not as much as I-Buiding, of

17 course. The only asbestos they literally

18 used at the beginning was in their black line

19 shop.

20 Q Now, in 1980 you left that job,

21 and whats the next — where did you go?

22 A Industrial building products.

23 Q And where is it? Is that a

24 Manville plant?

25 A No, that is not a Manville plant.

1 That was in New Orleans, Louisiana.

2 Q And what did they make there?

3 A Basically corrugated siding and

4 imitation slate shingles.

5 Q And what was your job there?

6 A Mill manager.

7 Q Was asbestos used in any process

8 at that plant?

9 A Yes, it was.

10 Q What process?

11 A In the — in both the corrugated and

12 the imitation slate.

13 Q Okay. And how long did you stay

14 at that particular job?

15 A Less than two years, I believe.

16 Q And then did you have — what

17 job did you have after that?

18 A Then I went back to Johns-Manville in

19 Marrero, Louisiana. And that was — that was

20 a roofing plant. Roofing shingles.

21 Q Was there — did you have any

22 asbestos exposure in that plant?

23 A I dont believe so.

24 Q Now, how long did you stay in

25 that job?

1 A Until they closed down. That was

2 close to 1985.

3 Q And in 1985, did you take

4 another job with Johns-Manville?

5 A Yes. Thats when I became

6 architectural sales rep.

7 Q And was does an architectural

8 sales rep do?

9 A What I would do is with Manville, its

10 what they call cradle the grave, where I

11 would work with architects, I would work with

12 contractors, building owners, et cetera. And

13 we would literally — I would help the

14 architects design, design a roof and put it

15 out to bid. And after it would bid, I would

16 basically visit the product to make sure –

17 the project to make sure it was being

18 installed correctly, et cetera.

19 Q And how long did you have that

20 job, from 85 to what?

21 A Until I retired from Manville. Im

22 going to say December, 02, maybe.

23 Q And when you say retired, what

24 do you mean by that?

25 A I literally left Johns-Manville

1 completely. And a couple weeks later I went

2 to work for Firestone.

3 Q And when you were an

4 architectural rep for Johns-Manville, do you

5 believe you had any asbestos exposure in that

6 job?

7 A Im going to say no, not to any

8 extent, no.

9 Q Okay. Now, I want to back up a

10 second and ask you: During the time that you

11 worked for Johns-Manville, do you recall the

12 names of any of the suppliers of asbestos

13 fiber to the Johns-Manville plant?

14 A The ones that I specifically remember

15 was the Bell fiber. The blue fiber, which

16 was either African or — and/or Australian.

17 But I dont remember the names of the mines

18 or whatever. Advocate, but I dont — I

19 dont remember which — I cant place a name

20 on a particular bag.

21 Q Okay. When you say you cant

22 place a name on a particular bag, what do you

23 mean by that?

24 A I know if someone ran past a list of

25 names to me, that some I would recognize and

1 some I wouldnt.

2 Q Okay. You said, you mentioned

3 Bell fiber.

4 A Thats correct.

5 Q What do you remember about Bell

6 fiber?

7 A I think the thing that stands out with

8 Bell fiber was it always reminded me of — I

9 dont know if Im pronouncing it right — Arm

10 & Hammer. I think that was a kitchen

11 product. It was just the logo that stood

12 out. Because Arm & Hammer had a ring with

13 a — something inside of it.

14 Q And what kind of fiber was that?

15 You said blue fiber. What was Bell fiber?

16 A Its a white fiber.

17 Q What was the strongest fiber

18 that you were aware of when you worked there?

19 A Bell fiber. Thats probably the other

20 reason that I really knew Bell fiber, if

21 anything. Because they used that especially

22 for water pipes, et cetera.

23 Q During what period of time do

24 you recall Bell fiber?

25 A What period of time? From the time –

1 from the time I worked in the wet end of

2 I-Buiding.

3 Q Now, when you were in I-Buiding

4 the first time around, do you recall Bell

5 fiber then?

6 A The first time around, meaning when I

7 was a clean-up and lathe operator?

8 Q From 58 to 64. Thats what I

9 mean by the first time around.

10 A Toward the end — toward the end I

11 did, because we would have occasion to be in

12 the wet end throughout the wet end process.

13 Q Because thats when you would be

14 in a position to see it?

15 A Thats the only reason.

16 Q Okay. And in addition to — so

17 you saw Bell fiber during the first time you

18 were in I-Buiding. Did you see it at all

19 when you went back to I-Buiding in the 1970s?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. How often would you see

22 Bell fiber?

23 A It varied. Sometimes it could be on a

24 daily basis.

25 Q Would you be in the vicinity of

1 where it was used?

2 A After — after — yes, any time it was

3 in the wet end I would see that. Thats

4 correct.

5 Q Now, while you were at the

6 Chemtite building I think you also said you

7 remember Bell fiber. Do you recall that?

8 A Thats — I recall that only because

9 Bell fiber, I recall being the strongest

10 fiber they had. And for chemical fittings

11 they needed — they needed a good product and

12 good process.

13 Q Now, did you also remember

14 seeing Manville fiber in any of the jobs that

15 you did?

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q What jobs did you see Manville

18 fiber?

19 A That was mainly in I-Buiding.

20 Q And you said the word Advocate.

21 Where did you see that?

22 A I-Buiding.

23 Q Now, you said that there were

24 other suppliers; you just didnt remember the

25 names?

1 A Thats correct.

2 Q I put up a picture here that I

3 actually got off the internet. And its –

4 the internet indicated that it was a photo of

5 taken at the Bell mines.

6 MS. JEREMIAH: Objection.

7 Q Can you tell me whether anything

8 on the top of the photo means anything to you

9 in terms of your recollection of Bell?

10 MS. JEREMIAH: Objection.

11 A Im not 100 percent sure, but I would

12 say that the Bell — the Bell on top of the

13 building inside the circle, that would remind

14 me of the Arm & Hammer.

15 Q Okay. Now, you have a specific

16 recollection of a Bell logo being on bags?

17 A I thought so, yes.

18 Q Now, Im going to show you

19 another picture. The first time you saw this

20 picture was when?

21 MS. JEREMIAH: Objection to the

22 picture.

23 Q Thats okay. Shes doing what

24 shes got to do.

25 A This morning.

1 Q And can you tell us whether or

2 not that picture refreshes your recollection

3 at all of a Bell product used at the Manville

4 plant?

5 A The — these are pictures of burlap

6 bags. Like the first one, I dont think, has

7 anything in it. But when a burlap bag is

8 stenciled, its an extremely rough surface,

9 and you couldnt make out hardly any of the

10 labels whatsoever.

11 Q This bag purports on the right

12 to be Asbestos Corporation Limited. Does

13 that ring a bell to you in any way?

14 A Asbestos –

15 MS. JEREMIAH: Objection.

16 THE WITNESS: Pardon me?

17 A Asbestos Corp. does, but I cant — I

18 wouldnt be able to place it anywhere.

19 Q Okay.

20 A The name does ring a bell.

21 Q Do you recall that from the

22 plant?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. Now, while you were at

25 the Chemtite plant, lets focus on that.

1 A Yes.

2 Q You said that you were around

3 where asbestos paper was being used, came in

4 big rolls. Do you remember that?

5 A Yes, thats correct.

6 Q Do you know the manufacturer or

7 the supplier of the asbestos paper that was

8 used while you were at the Chemtite plant?

9 A The main one was H&V.

10 Q When you you say H&V, what do

11 you mean by that?

12 A Hollingsworth & Vose.

13 Q Why do you say H&V?

14 A Well, thats what we called it.

15 Q And how is it that you remember

16 Hollingsworth & Vose?

17 A That was the bulk of the paper that we

18 used.

19 Q But when you say that, whats

20 the source of that recollection, if you know?

21 A It had a stencil — the one thing I do

22 remember is the stencil on the craft paper

23 inside of it. And as I said, I couldnt give

24 you a percentage, but that was the bulk of

25 the product that we used for saturation.

1 Q And was that the product that

2 you described before that created dust when

3 you unrolled it?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And were you in the vicinity of

6 that product to breathe that dust?

7 A Off and on, yes.

8 Q Now, the last time we were

9 here — well, scratch that.

10 At some point in time did you

11 look to see if you had records from the time

12 when you were at the Manville plant?

13 A Repeat that, please.

14 Q All right. Do you have any

15 records in your possession from the Manville

16 plant?

17 A Without question.

18 Q Okay. And where are those

19 records located?

20 A At 17 Applesauce Lane, Wappinger

21 Falls.

22 Q Okay. And why do you have those

23 records? First of all, what are they?

24 A Theyre — I guess the bulk of the

25 records, needless to say, is from my dad. My

1 dad worked in I-Buiding most of the time.

2 And — all his life, actually, I guess.

3 But anyway, its things that he

4 had. And when he passed on, I wasnt going

5 to throw anything he had away.

6 Q What was his job in I-Buiding?

7 A He ended up being a general foreman.

8 Q So he had documents and you just

9 kept them?

10 A Thats correct.

11 Q Did you accumulate any of your

12 own documents while you worked at Manville?

13 A I did.

14 Q And is that part of your

15 collection?

16 A Thats part of the crate, yes.

17 Q Have you ever actually tried to

18 read all the stuff?

19 How many boxes of documents do

20 you have, by the way?

21 A I have, I believe theres seven in

22 total. And six, six of them probably refer

23 to asbestos one way or another.

24 Q Okay. Did you ever actually try

25 to read all those documents?

1 A Heavens, no.

2 Q Do you even know whats in most

3 of those documents?

4 A No, I dont.

5 Q You just kept them because

6 youre a pack rat?

7 A Thats what my wife tells me.

8 Q Okay. And did you turn those

9 documents over to your attorneys for purposes

10 of giving them to the defendants in this

11 case? Do you recall that?

12 A Yes, I did.

13 Q All right.

14 A And they copied them and returned

15 them.

16 Q So now you have the documents

17 again?

18 A I do.

19 Q So if you were asked questions

20 about what was in those documents, what would

21 you be able to say?

22 MR. SUSS: Object to the form of

23 the question.

24 MS. GIACUMBO: Join.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Let me withdraw

1 the question and ask it this way:

2 Q Some of the documents actually

3 come from the time when you worked there?

4 A Yes, they did.

5 Q Have you reviewed all of those

6 documents from the time you worked there, or

7 just some of them?

8 A Just some of them.

9 Q And Ive marked two exhibits

10 here. The first one is Exhibit 1 which, for

11 the record, Ill say, came out of your boxes,

12 and ask you if you recognize this document?

13 You know what it is, dont you?

14 A Yes. These are products used in

15 Chemtite.

16 Q During the time that you were

17 there?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Now, I want to show you whats

20 been marked as Exhibit 2.

21 And can you tell me what that

22 is?

23 A Again, these are products that are

24 used in Chemtite.

25 Q How do you know that?

1 A Your — the fibers on here. The high

2 voltage asbestos paper is on here. The epoxy

3 resins. The curing agent.

4 I mean, these are all products

5 that went into various products, whether they

6 be pipe or fittings. You got release agents

7 used on the presses. The film was used on

8 wrapping the pipe products.

9 Q And those were the products that

10 were used during the time that you were in

11 Chemtite?

12 A Yes, thats correct.

13 Q Now, I want to show you just an

14 excerpt from that — the second, actually,

15 the third page of the first document I showed

16 you. Ifyou just look up at the screen.

17 See where it says, Blue

18 asbestos paper, where the blue area is?

19 A Yes.

20 Q What does it indicate in terms

21 of the suppliers of the blue asbestos paper?

22 A Hollingsworth & Vose Paper Company.

23 Q And is there another one there?

24 A Im looking for Strathmore. I dont

25 see it.

1 Q Let me give you an easier copy.

2 A No. This has got Union Carbide Corp.

3 Q Right.

4 A I do not remember that.

5 Q Okay.

6 A It might have been used at trial.

7 Q So its within the records, but

8 not something you have a personal

9 recollection of?

10 A Thats correct.

11 Q Okay. The fourth page of this

12 document on the bottom has another product.

13 Do you see that?

14 A The Bakelite and Union Carbide?

15 Q Right. Do you know what

16 Bakelite is or what it was used for?

17 A In this particular case, I do not.

18 I know what Bakelite is, or

19 Union Carbide, actually. Its a plastic type

20 product. But I dont — the only thing I can

21 think of at that point, it was a product used

22 with our injection molders.

23 Q Now, the other document I want

24 to show is the second one you identified,

25 where it has high bulk asbestos paper.

1 And what does it say the

2 suppliers of high bulk asbestos paper are?

3 A H&V and Strathmore. Thats the name I

4 was looking for.

5 Q And what is it you remember

6 about Strathmore?

7 A Strathmore was used — if I remember

8 correctly, Strathmore was used when we could

9 not or did not have enough supply or could

10 not get H&V, which was seldom because we

11 always kept it on hand. And was more — more

12 of a trial than anything else.

13 Q Okay.

14 A But it was used, yes.

15 Q Okay. Now, why dont we just

16 take a two-minute break?

17 A That sounds good.

18 Q Sure.

19 VIDEOGRAPHER: Were going off

20 the record. This is the end of video

21 tape number one in the deposition of

22 William Avon. The time is now 2:12.

23 (Recess.)

24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Were back on the

25 record. Its the beginning of video

1 tape number two in the deposition of

2 William Avon. The time is now 2:21.

3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:

4 Q Bill, is there a time when you

5 worked at Manville where you learned that a

6 lot of asbestos exposure could cause — be

7 dangerous to your health or dangerous to

8 health?

9 A No, not throughout my career. Not

10 until the end when they actually were talking

11 about shutting down the operation.

12 Q Okay. But your dad, what did he

13 die from?

14 A Asbestosis.

15 Q And when was that?

16 A October 2nd, 1969.

17 Q So did you know in 1969 he died

18 from asbestosis?

19 A At that time I did.

20 Q And what conclusions did you

21 reach at that point in time about the working

22 conditions in Manville, knowing that your

23 father died from asbestosis?

24 A At that — at that time I would say I

25 have to — I have to — I would have known

1 that asbestos was bad because he did die from

2 asbestosis.

3 But at the same time, he

4 worked — he worked in the Manville plant

5 when, I guess in theory, there was very

6 little dust collection and things as far

7 as — as far as clouds of dust, that type of

8 think, had to be more severe back then than

9 it was ever when I worked there.

10 I mean, were talking about the

11 19 — 1940s.

12 Q When you worked at Manville did

13 you believe you were working in a safe

14 environment?

15 A Absolutely.

16 Q And when you worked at Manville,

17 why did you believe you were working in a

18 safe environment?

19 A Well, at that time everybody

20 appeared — appeared healthy, if you will.

21 But the bottom line was we were told the dust

22 collection systems took care of everything.

23 And if you had a dusty area or problem, they

24 gave you masks.

25 On top of that, we had — we had

1 annual physicals, or close to an annual

2 physical as you can get. And needless to

3 say, you were always healthy when you came

4 out of that physical.

5 Q So were you getting physicals

6 from the 1950s all the way through to the

7 70s?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And the same with the guys that

10 were working with you or around you?

11 A Thats correct, yes.

12 Q And you were always told that

13 everything was okay?

14 A Thats correct.

15 Q And when you say you wore masks,

16 when would you wear a mask?

17 A If there were — if there were areas

18 where safety operation or safety operating

19 procedures called for it, or if we happen to

20 be in a cleanup area or whatever it is,

21 creating dust, we would wear the masks.

22 Q Now, when you say dust, what are

23 you referring to? When you say dust, what

24 does that mean?

25 A Sweeping the floor. Any kind of dust,

1 basically.

2 Q Was that dust specifically from

3 asbestos or other materials or what?

4 A Its — I think its a combination of

5 everything. You had — needless to say, you

6 had typical dirt. You got cement. You got

7 silica and asbestos. So its a combination

8 of all products.

9 Q Right. So when it was

10 particularly dusty, youd wear a mask?

11 A Thats correct.

12 Q And were there like safety

13 procedures or operating procedures in place

14 that told you how to protect yourself?

15 A On — in certain areas on certain

16 equipment you definitely had to follow the

17 safety procedures. And it called for a mask.

18 So whether — it didnt matter who you were,

19 you had to wear a mask in that area.

20 Q And did you follow the safety

21 procedures?

22 A Oh, absolutely.

23 Q And did you make sure that the

24 guys who were working for you followed the

25 safety procedures?

1 A Absolutely.

2 Q And did you believe that in

3 following the safety procedures that you were

4 working safely?

5 A Yes. If I thought at any time that it

6 would make me sick down the road, I wouldnt

7 be there. I felt very comfortable.

8 Q Now, when you observed the

9 packaging of the asbestos that came into the

10 plant, did you ever see any warnings on the

11 packaging about the need or the dangers of

12 asbestos?

13 A I had never noticed any.

14 Q Okay. Now, did you ever see any

15 warnings on any packaging that said that, you

16 know, wearing the masks — by the way, what

17 kind of masks were they, that you recall?

18 What did they look like?

19 A Paper, cloth type, with rubber bands.

20 A rubber band or two rubber bands around.

21 They were 3-M masks.

22 Q Okay. Did you ever see anything

23 that said that wearing those masks was not

24 going to protect you?

25 A Never.

1 Q During the entire time that you

2 worked at Manville were you ever told that

3 working around asbestos could cause cancer?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Were you ever told that slight

6 exposures — and what I mean by that is

7 exposures where the dust collection equipment

8 is working and youre doing what youre

9 supposed to do — was enough to cause you

10 cancer?

11 A There was never, never anything told

12 to us that associated the product with

13 cancer.

14 Q Now, if you were told that you

15 were working in a dangerous environment that

16 could cause cancer, what would you have done?

17 A I would have left the job.

18 Q Did you have other options?

19 A I would go — I would leave as a

20 carpenter. And Id leave — I mean, I

21 already had training as a truck driver. Id

22 do anything to support my family and stay

23 healthy.

24 Q You didnt need asbestos, did

25 you?

1 A No, I did not need that particular

2 job, no.

3 Q When you say a carpenter, what

4 do you mean? Did you have some skills as a

5 carpenter?

6 A One of my hobbies was to build various

7 items, build things.

8 Q Okay. Now, this time last year,

9 August, 2005, how was your health?

10 A Excellent. I had no problems

11 whatsoever.

12 Q And did there come a point in

13 time where your state of health changed after

14 August, 2005?

15 A I had — I had an upset — an upset

16 stomach. We didnt know exactly what caused

17 it or whatever. The doctor sent me for a

18 sonogram. And during that particular

19 sonogram, the sonogram come out very well,

20 according to the doctor. But they noticed a

21 shadow, and that happened to be an aneurysm.

22 Q Okay. And when was that?

23 A Im going to say that was August of

24 2005.

25 Q All right. And the aneurysm was

1 where?

2 A It was a triple A, an aortic abdominal

3 aneurysm.

4 Q And what was done for you at

5 that point in time?

6 A October, October 11th, they did scans,

7 et cetera, to find out — the surgeon, that

8 is — had a scan performed to find out how to

9 approach and remedy the aneurysm.

10 Theres basically two ways of

11 taking care of that particular situation.

12 One is putting a stent, I guess they call it,

13 up through the groin area and tying it off

14 where the aneurysm is. And the other is an

15 operation where they literally go in and take

16 care of it 100 percent.

17 In my particular case, they

18 could not go up through the groin because the

19 aneurysm that I had was too close to the main

20 arteries going to the kidneys. So they had

21 to operate and lift everything and take care

22 of it that way.

23 Q And when was the operation?

24 A October 11th.

25 Q And where did you have the

1 operation?

2 A Vasser Hospital, Poughkeepsie, New

3 York.

4 Q Were you expected to have a full

5 recovery?

6 A Without question.

7 Q Did you have an expectation that

8 you were going to resume your activities?

9 A Yes. In fact, the doctor told me that

10 I had no limitations; that as soon as I felt

11 I could do whatever, start doing it. He did

12 not restrict me in any way.

13 Q And did you start back on any of

14 your activites after that operation?

15 A I surely thereafter, I mean, I

16 would — I would go to — I would go outside,

17 et cetera. And I was in — I was in the

18 typical, what I would consider any, a typical

19 postoperative pain.

20 They basically just removed 42

21 staples from my side, which is a pretty good

22 slice. And as I walked and things, it got

23 better. I did go back to work at that point.

24 Q I thought you retired.

25 A Well, I did retire from

1 Johns-Manville. But Firestone — Firestone

2 found out I retired, so the roofing reps

3 hired me.

4 Q So you were working at that

5 point in time?

6 A Yes. Thats correct.

7 Q When you got the aneurysm?

8 A Thats correct, yes.

9 Q And what were you doing? What

10 was your job?

11 A Architectural sales rep.

12 Q Same job you had for Manville?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Different product?

15 A Thats — roofing to roofing. It was

16 the same, basically the same system, same

17 products. And it was handy for Firestone

18 because I dealt with the same customers. I

19 had a loyal following.

20 Q And you started back to work?

21 A Yes, I did.

22 Q Was your plan to continue to

23 work full-time or part-time?

24 A The general plan was to work full-time

25 until January. And then I was going to go to

1 half-time at that point, or part-time.

2 Q Okay. And did there come a time

3 when you had to stop work again?

4 A Yes. I went through the — as I said

5 earlier, I was going through the pains of

6 postoperative healing, if you will. Thats

7 what I was calling it.

8 But toward the latter part of

9 the year, I went back to the doctor several

10 times. The surgeon, as well as my family

11 doctor. I felt I was, besides being in more

12 pain than I thought was necessary or normal,

13 I was losing muscle mass tremendously. I was

14 getting slender in areas I shouldnt be

15 getting slender in.

16 So thats when I — my doctor,

17 my family doctor, had another sonogram taken

18 to see if anything was going on.

19 Q And what, if anything, were you

20 told at that point in time?

21 A That sonogram immediately showed up

22 liquid in my abdominal area.

23 Q And then what happened?

24 A He put me — he put me in Vasser

25 Hospital and they drained three and a half

1 liters of liquid out of my abdominal area.

2 Q And when was that,

3 approximately?

4 A December.

5 Q Okay. And after the liquid was

6 drained did you receive a diagnosis as to

7 what was the cause for that fluid buildup?

8 A They sent — they sent the fluid to

9 various places for different tests. And my

10 doctor ended up, as a back-up, sending a

11 sample to Columbia Presbyterian in New York.

12 And that came back stating that, more than

13 likely, its mesothelioma.

14 Q And could you pronounce that

15 word at that point in time?

16 A No. No.

17 Q Is that the first time you ever

18 heard such a word?

19 A I never — I never knew what it was.

20 I saw it on television a couple of times, as

21 far as the word goes, but I had no idea what

22 it was, no.

23 Q Now, did you discuss with the

24 doctors what your potential course of

25 treatment would be for that disease?

1 A Once — at one point in time when we

2 literally got Dr. Taub to ask us to come in,

3 thats the time that actually I sat down with

4 the doctor, Dr. Taub, as well as Dr. Shivot,

5 and they went over the possibilities of what

6 could be done.

7 Q Okay. And did you ever have a

8 discussion with them at that point in time

9 what the possible causes could be for the

10 mesothelioma?

11 A Dr. Taub told me it was definitely

12 asbestos-related. Thats the only way you

13 can get it.

14 Q But you smoked –

15 A Thats correct.

16 Q — before that?

17 A I did.

18 Q And did the doctor tell you

19 whether or not smoking had anything to do

20 with the mesothelioma?

21 A The doctor told me that smoking had

22 nothing to do with mesothelioma. It was only

23 asbestos-related.

24 Q Now, after you were diagnosed –

25 well, before you were diagnosed with

1 mesothelioma, did you smoke at all?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q And how much were you smoking?

4 A I used to smoke, I used to smoke a

5 pack a day. And actually, once I had the –

6 my triple A, I had cut down.

7 Q Had you ever attempted to stop

8 before that?

9 A I stopped many times. Throughout –

10 throughout my career of smoking, if you will,

11 Ive stopped for months at a time. Ive

12 stopped for two years at one point.

13 Q Now, after you were diagnosed

14 did you ever smoke after that?

15 A Yes, I did.

16 Q Okay. Why?

17 A I guess its called addiction.

18 Q Did you ever have a discussion

19 with your doctor about the fact that you had

20 smoked, or you might be smoking even after

21 you were diagnosed?

22 A I spoke to an oncologist up in Vasser,

23 in Poughkeepsie, and I basically asked the

24 question straight out. Since I did not

25 have — the particular disease that I have

1 has not affected lungs. Basically, my lungs

2 are supposed to be clear. Will smoking be a

3 problem if I smoked a few a day? And the

4 doctor told me no, Id have no problem.

5 Q And why did you think at that

6 point in time you needed to smoke, with all

7 that you were going through?

8 A Im sorry?

9 Q Why at that point in time you

10 thought you needed to smoke with all you were

11 going through?

12 A Stress is a funny thing. The bottom

13 line, it helped me relax.

14 Q Okay. Now, the course of

15 therapy that was chosen for you to deal with

16 the mesothelioma, what was that?

17 A Chemotherapy.

18 Q And where would you get the

19 chemotherapy?

20 A At Dr. Taubs building. 161 Fort

21 Washington Avenue in New York. Next to

22 Millstein — Millstein, I believe it is,

23 Hospital.

24 Q Okay.

25 A Columbia Presbyterian.

1 Q And how often would you go for

2 chemotherapy?

3 A That varied depending — depending on

4 the dose that he was giving me at the time

5 and the reaction.

6 Q Now, are you still going for

7 chemo?

8 A I am.

9 Q Whens the last time you had it?

10 A This past Wednesday.

11 Q How do you –

12 A That would be the 9th.

13 Q How do you tolerate the chemo –

14 scratch that.

15 When you get the chemotherapy,

16 what, if any, affects do you feel?

17 A Actually, the next day, as a rule, the

18 next day I dont feel too bad.

19 After that, its as if I

20 crashed. Ill be extremely tired. I would

21 have to take naps. Worn down and exhausted.

22 Q When you got the chemotherapy,

23 did it produce any affects that somebody

24 could see on your body?

25 A The first time I got it I had a rash

1 from head to toe. I mean, totally a rash.

2 My blood — blood counts went wild. And I

3 ended up spending eleven days in the

4 hospital.

5 They even brought a

6 dermatologist in to see if they could

7 recognize anything and do anything.

8 Q Did the chemo ever have any

9 affect on any of your limbs or anything like

10 that?

11 A Yes, the — I believe it was the

12 second dose of chemo. It gave me cellulitis

13 in the right leg. Dr. Taub told me it was a

14 direct response from the disease and it

15 created blood clots.

16 They ended up — my leg swelled

17 up probably two and a half times its normal

18 size. I could not put — let me back up.

19 Its not that I couldnt put weight on it. I

20 couldnt literally slide my leg over to the

21 side of the bed because the blood would rush

22 down to the bottom of my leg.

23 I eventually — that morning,

24 that morning I went to Dr. Mallick and my

25 blood pressure was extremely low. And after

1 my experience in the hospital, I told him I,

2 you know, I told him how I felt about

3 hospitals, which he knew. And he didnt want

4 to push the issue so he said, if you — if I

5 have a problem, or whatever, call me.

6 I left his office that

7 afternoon. I took a nap. I stayed in bed

8 until, Im going to say, ten oclock in the

9 evening. My wife took my temperature. It

10 was sky rocketed. I had to go to the

11 hospital. Called the doctor. It took me two

12 hours to get out of bed. My wife and son

13 were helping me.

14 And I ended up in the hospital

15 for nine days. Thats because the

16 combination of everything else, the

17 cellulitis.

18 Q Now, were you ever given any

19 kind of treatment to deal with the blood clot

20 issue?

21 A Before I left, before I left Columbia

22 Presbyterian the first time, the eleven days,

23 they did two things. They implanted a

24 filter, a permanent filter to stop blood

25 clots from reaching my lungs. And they also

1 implanted a twin port where I can get the

2 chemotherapy or blood, or whatever, through

3 the port without punching holes in my arms.

4 Q So when they say a filter, where

5 is that?

6 A I dont know exactly where it is, but

7 they put it in up here and it went down

8 through one of my main arteries or veins

9 (indicating).

10 Q Do you have to medicate yourself

11 in any way in conjunction with the therapies

12 youre getting?

13 A Every morning and evening my wife has

14 to give me a needle filled with Lovenox.

15 Q Now, I want to turn the clock

16 back for a second to last summer before you

17 got sick.

18 What was your activity level

19 like at that point in time?

20 A I had a fairly high activity level.

21 Q Well, I mean –

22 A I bowled every week. I played golf a

23 minimum of once a week. In fact, depending

24 on — excuse me, depending on the weather, I

25 would take architects out to play golf. I

1 mean, that was part of my job, to –

2 Q Were you strict or did you play

3 winter rules all the time?

4 A I let the architects play winner

5 rules, but I was more strict than anything

6 else.

7 Q What gave you the greatest

8 pleasures before you got sick?

9 A Oh, besides golf, Im going to tell

10 you my family.

11 Q Okay. Now, I brought a couple

12 of pictures that you gave me. I want to ask

13 you some questions about them.

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q Now, what is this picture?

16 A Thats a — thats a team I manage for

17 baseball. It came in first place in the

18 division, as a matter of fact.

19 I love working with kids. Well,

20 because I have two boys.

21 Q And how often would you do this?

22 A I was doing that daily every season

23 for years.

24 Q Is that something that gave you

25 joy and pleasure?

1 A Oh, without question.

2 Q And by the way, how did that kid

3 get the broken arm?

4 A That actually wasnt a baseball. That

5 was a basketball.

6 Q Okay. You knew what all the

7 kids were doing?

8 A Oh yeah.

9 Q And how they got their injuries,

10 even if it wasnt on the baseball field?

11 A Oh yes, absolutely. I was close with

12 the kids.

13 Q Now, this picture, can you tell

14 us what these pictures are?

15 A That is basically from our first

16 grandchild. Thats Chloe Grace. The top

17 left is myself. And the proud father, my

18 son, Bill. The right side, naturally, is me

19 and Chloe. The center is myself and Chloe.

20 The bottom left is my sweetheart, Chloe and

21 myself.

22 Q And –

23 A The bottom right.

24 Q And what do these times that you

25 spend with your granddaughter and your wife

1 and your kids mean to you?

2 A Oh, it means everything. That sort

3 of — she was born December 9th, and that was

4 a pick-me-up, if you will, as sick as I was.

5 Q Now, what are these pictures of?

6 Let me ask you a question. I

7 see over on the right, it looks like its

8 during the holiday time?

9 A Yes. That was a Christmas picture.

10 Q How would you and your family

11 spend a typical holiday?

12 A We would, we would actually split it

13 up where the whole family would come over to

14 our house Christmas Eve. And then Christmas

15 Day they would celebrate it with my sons

16 in-laws.

17 Q Okay. And so you spent the time

18 together?

19 A Oh, absolutely.

20 Q And these other pictures, what

21 are they?

22 A The bottom, the bottom right is

23 Chloes Christening. Thats at the church.

24 The left, needless to say, is a

25 wedding picture.

1 Q How much did you weigh there?

2 A That was –

3 Q Remember, youre under oath.

4 A I would say thats probably around

5 2 — 215, 220.

6 Q And what do you weigh now?

7 A I went down to 183, and I just picked

8 up. I think Im up to 209, if Im not

9 mistaken.

10 Q So youre working hard at it?

11 A Absolutely.

12 Q The upper left corner, whats

13 that?

14 A The upper left is a week in Hawaii

15 that — Maui, that my wife and I spent.

16 Q Now, you had lots of pictures of

17 boats. Tell me about you and boating. What

18 is this about?

19 A Boating, boating was one of our

20 favorite things. I was out of boating for

21 several years, and then my children were just

22 about the right age and my wife said, how

23 would you like to get back into boating? I

24 mean, after twisting my arm, I said okay.

25 And that happens to be my

1 23-foot Wellcraft. And the center picture

2 shows the kids. My kids and myself. And the

3 bottom left is my older son. And on the

4 right is my older son and my son Bob –

5 Robert.

6 Q And –

7 A And thats me skiing on the top right.

8 Q Now, Im not going to ask you

9 what you weighed in that picture.

10 A 197. Ill tell you that.

11 Q That looks a little bit better.

12 Now, how often before you got

13 sick would you go out on a boat?

14 A When we went out — Im going to say

15 quite often. Because when we did go out on

16 the boat, Id be working in Connecticut. And

17 if it was a pleasant, very pleasant day, Id

18 call my wife on the way home or shed call me

19 and ask if, you know, we thought it would be

20 good to go out. And we said yes, and the

21 boat would uncovered when I got to the boat

22 yard. And we went out to dinner.

23 Q Now, its August of 2006.

24 A Uh-huh.

25 Q How many times have you taken

1 out the boat this summer?

2 A Zero.

3 Q Do you miss it?

4 A Very much.

5 Q Now, this picture thats here,

6 thats — where was that taken?

7 A This was taken at a golf course in

8 Connecticut. Thats, top right, is myself

9 with three customers.

10 The bottom left, thats myself

11 and two sales reps from Johns-Manville. That

12 was at a sales meeting in that particular

13 picture.

14 Q And how often this summer have

15 you played golf?

16 A I havent played at all.

17 Q And how often did you play last

18 summer before you got sick?

19 A Quite often. Weather permitting, I

20 mean, I dont think weve ever missed a week.

21 And sometimes went out two, three times,

22 depending.

23 Q Now, whats this a picture of?

24 A Thats a picture of myself leaning

25 against a mantle that I built.

1 Q You built that yourself?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q And what about this? Whats

4 this a picture of?

5 A Thats our hot tub outside the

6 lower — the lower deck, which I built.

7 Q You built that whole thing?

8 A Yes, I did.

9 Q And when did you do that?

10 A Thats approximately, Im going to

11 say, three years ago.

12 Q And this picture is what?

13 A Thats another one of my hobbies. I

14 built a — that picture shows a building of a

15 replica for a lighthouse. And the bottom

16 left shows the lighthouse, as well as — I

17 dont have the bases finished because I got

18 sick — but the bottom left shows a light

19 keepers house that I built.

20 Q Where what was your intention

21 for this?

22 A Just an ornamental thing to put it

23 outside. We have a big pond out there. And

24 I wired that up, its got a beacon in it and

25 lights. And the little house got lights in

1 it.

2 Q Did you ever have a chance to

3 finish it?

4 A As you see on the left side, the

5 bottom left, thats where it sits right now.

6 I was never able to finish the foundation.

7 Q Now, when you were diagnosed

8 with mesothelioma, do you remember that day?

9 A Yes, I do.

10 Q What went through your mind on

11 that day, on that occasion?

12 A I dont have much time left. Thats

13 really the bottom line.

14 Q Well, how do you spend a typical

15 day now?

16 A I get up and have breakfast.

17 Depending what time it is, watch a little TV.

18 I might make some — go to the store with my

19 wife if theyre short trips. Come home, sit

20 around, watch a little TV and go to bed.

21 Q And when you sit home and youre

22 looking out, what are your, you know, what

23 are your greatest hopes and what are your

24 greater concerns?

25 A Hope for a minimum of remission. The

1 best thing, make it disappear. Greatest

2 concern is my family.

3 Excuse me.

4 Q Bill, thank you very much. I

5 dont have any other questions.

6 A Thank you.

7 MR. PLACITELLA: Take a break.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Can we

9 take a break?

10 MR. PLACITELLA: Take a break.

11 VIDEOGRAPHER: Were going off

12 the record. The time is now 2:57.

13 (Recess.)

14 VIDEOGRAPHER: Were back on the

15 record. The time is now 3:11.

16 MR. PLACITELLA: My

17 understanding is that there is no

18 Cross. That because documents, there

19 were a lot of documents produced.

20 Some people may want to ask some

21 questions about the documents.

22 Theyre not going to ask questions

23 they didnt have an opportunity to ask

24 before.

25 I will reserve my right to go

1 back on the tape, depending upon the

2 questions that you ask him in a

3 discovery — in this part of discovery

4 deposition.

5 VIDEOGRAPHER: Were going off

6 the record. Its the end of videotape

7 number two. The time is now 3:11 of

8 William Avon.

9 (Off video record.)

11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RASNEK:

13 Q Good afternoon. My name is

14 Joseph Rasnek.

15 Can you hear me?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Ill try to keep my voice up,

18 and I dont want to make you talk too load.

19 If its uncomfortable, please tell me.

20 A Thats fine.

21 Q Ill try not to burden you and

22 not ask questions that have already been

23 asked, and Ill try not to take too long.

24 Sir, you told us your father had

25 been a general foreman in I-Building?

1 A Thats correct.

2 Q He passed away in 1969?

3 A 69, yes.

4 Q So he would have started in 49?

5 A I believe. In fact, I believe he

6 started in 41. Because I have a quarter

7 century clock at home from him, which was

8 1966. So that would be the 25 years.

9 Q Do you have any information as

10 to what his jobs in I-Buiding were, beginning

11 in 1941 until he became general foreman?

12 A No, I dont.

13 Q Do you –

14 A I know he was a supervisor prior to

15 becoming a general foreman. But prior to

16 that, I really dont know.

17 Q Do you know when he became a

18 supervisor the first time?

19 A No. No.

20 Q When you were growing up, did

21 you ever visit the Manville plant to visit

22 your father?

23 A They had — every so often they had

24 what they call open house. And it was a

25 family-type thing.

1 The bottom line, they cleaned up

2 the building and people would be led through

3 the plant in various areas of the plant on

4 tours, if you will. And it was just an open

5 house for the family so they could see where

6 their loved ones worked, whatever.

7 Q That would take place whenever

8 production was not taking place?

9 A Very limited production.

10 Q There was some production going

11 on?

12 A Very limited.

13 Q How often would you go to these

14 events?

15 A They only had them once every few

16 years.

17 Q Do you recall observing any

18 production in I-Buiding?

19 A Im sorry?

20 Q Do you recall observing any

21 production going on in I-Buiding on any one

22 of those visits?

23 A I think I was too young at the time.

24 No.

25 Q So then –

1 A I know there was scrambling going on

2 with people and things of that nature. So I

3 know there were things going on.

4 Q But you dont recall any

5 specifics?

6 A No, no. As I said, it was — if

7 anything, it was limited. And it was on a

8 weekend.

9 Q While you were growing up, did

10 your father bring any Johns-Manville products

11 home to your residence to use on your house

12 or anything like that?

13 A Not that Im aware of, no.

14 Q Did you ever have occasion to do

15 that?

16 A No.

17 Q I believe you told us that your

18 fathers last job when he was a general

19 foreman was to prepare standard operating

20 procedures. Is that right?

21 A He was put — he was given a special

22 assignment to review and correct the

23 operating procedures book, if necessary. The

24 SOPs.

25 Q What specifically was he

1 correcting for, do you know?

2 A Manufacturing processes.

3 Q Did any of that have to do with

4 safety procedures?

5 A Not that Im aware of.

6 Q Now, you told us that your

7 father died of asbestosis?

8 A Yes, he did.

9 Q Do you know when he was

10 diagnosed with asbestosis?

11 A I would say within six months of his

12 death.

13 Q So he died in 1969. Six months

14 prior to that he would have been in good

15 health?

16 A I would — I would say approximately

17 six months. Prior to six months he was in

18 good health.

19 Q Now, you told us that your

20 mother passed away in 1975?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Had she ever worked in the

23 Manville plant?

24 A No.

25 Q Other than your father, have any

1 of your other relatives ever worked at the

2 Manville plant in Manville, New Jersey?

3 A Not that I know of.

4 Q Sir, in terms of your father

5 having been diagnosed with asbestosis, do you

6 believe that diagnosis occurred within six

7 months of his death? Is that right?

8 A What was that last part?

9 Q Do you believe he would have

10 been diagnosed within six months of his

11 death?

12 A Yes. I dont think he was diagnosed

13 prior to that.

14 Q Okay. Do you recall who

15 diagnosed his condition?

16 A No.

17 Q Sir, in your first discovery

18 deposition you talked about working in the

19 yard gang, and you talked about that today as

20 well.

21 And one your responsibilities in

22 the yard gang during the summer 1956 and

23 1957, as I understand, was to do cleanup

24 work?

25 A Yeah.

1 Q Were you involved in cleaning

2 the dust collection equipment during those

3 summer months?

4 A No, I dont believe we had to do that.

5 No.

6 Q Did you observe other people

7 doing that while you were there?

8 MR. PLACITELLA: 56 and 57?

9 MR. RASNEK: Yes.

10 A No, not really. Because depending on

11 the building, each one had their own separate

12 units.

13 Q And you also told us that you

14 worked all over, in almost all the buildings

15 at the plant during the summer?

16 A At one time or another weve been

17 through them all, yes.

18 Q Would you work in all different

19 parts of those buildings?

20 A Some, I would say yes; some, I would

21 say no.

22 Q Well, were there certain

23 buildings that you spent more time in during

24 those summers?

25 A Not — no, not necessarily. No.

1 Q Now, what, if any, jobs did you

2 have in I-Buiding during those two summers

3 that you recall?

4 A What jobs did I have in I-Buiding?

5 Q Yes. In 56, 57, those two

6 summers.

7 A I couldnt point anything out there.

8 I mean, we might have repaired railroad

9 tracks, you know, from the railroad ties,

10 things of that nature.

11 But no, no specific jobs. We

12 never had a specific job, per se, in any one

13 building. I mean, youre not an operator of

14 anything, you know, in any one building.

15 Q You move around as needed every

16 day, different places?

17 A Absolutely.

18 Q You talked a little bit this

19 morning about the time that you spent in

20 I-Buiding from 57 through 65.

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q And I believe your counsel asked

23 you whether any changes had taken place in

24 I-Buiding during that time frame, and your

25 response was there may have been a dust

100

1 collector added or something like that.

2 Do you recall that testimony?

3 MR. PLACITELLA: Are you

4 crossing him now, or are you doing a

5 discovery dep?

6 MR. RASNEK: Im doing

7 discovery. Im not starting from

8 scratch.

9 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

10 A If anything, there was maybe a few

11 more dust pipes added, you know, that type of

12 thing.

13 Q Did — Im sorry. Go ahead.

14 A No, its from dust collectors off

15 equipment.

16 Q During the time you were

17 there — again, referring to that time frame

18 from 57 through 65 — did anyone ever tell

19 you why that was being done?

20 A No. Theyre just trying to improve

21 their environment.

22 Q And what do you base that

23 understanding on? Did someone tell you that

24 or, is that just your general perception?

25 A I would say its general perception.

101

1 Q Did you have any personal

2 involvement with any of those changes during

3 that time frame?

4 A No.

5 Q What crew at the plant would

6 have been making those changes?

7 A The maintenance department.

8 Q Now, I asked you a few minutes

9 ago about whether you ever had occasion to

10 clean the dust collector during the time that

11 you worked there in the summer.

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q At any subsequent time, did you

14 ever get involved in cleaning dust collectors

15 at any of your jobs at the Manville plant?

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Asked and

17 answered.

18 Answer it again.

19 A During 56, 57?

20 Q No. During your entire tenure

21 at the Manville plant.

22 A Oh, during the entire time I was in

23 there? I mean, we would go in as a

24 supervisor, as an example. If we had a

25 problem with the dust collector, wed go in

102

1 and see what the problem was.

2 Q But you wouldnt personally do

3 this and prepare this?

4 A No, no. I would send a crew in to do

5 it.

6 Q You told us a little while ago,

7 again, about the time that you spent on that

8 training truck for Manville.

9 A Pipe mobile.

10 Q Pipe mobile. And you indicated

11 that you went to various Manville plants to

12 pick up supplies?

13 A Thats correct.

14 Q How often did you make those

15 trips to Manville plants to pick up supplies

16 during that time frame?

17 A Quite honestly, its impossible to

18 answer. If we — if we had a lot of stops,

19 they were close together or whatever, wed

20 run out of samples quicker. Then wed

21 make — you know, call in advance, or

22 whatever, and theyd make samples up for us.

23 But there was no set designated

24 time that we would pick samples up.

25 Q During those eighteen months

103

1 that you had that job, where were you based,

2 or if thats a proper –

3 A In theory, we were based in Manville,

4 New Jersey. In theory.

5 Q When you say in theory, was more

6 of your time spent elsewhere?

7 A Oh, more times on the road.

8 Q And how many times did you go to

9 the Manville plant itself to pick up products

10 or samples?

11 A Thats what Im saying. Its

12 difficult to say. I mean, we — we might

13 have gone to — which I didnt mention

14 earlier, because Im a transite plant — but

15 Franklin, Pennsylvania. Its a PVC pipe, as

16 an example. If were anywhere near that

17 plant, we needed samples, we would have

18 samples shipped — say, transite samples –

19 shipped to Franklin, PA.

20 And because were picking up PVC

21 samples also, so its hard to pinpoint and

22 say, I was at that plant a certain amount of

23 time. Its impossible.

24 We would — we generally were

25 geared to stay on the road three months at a

104

1 time. Sometimes we did; sometimes we didnt.

2 Q When your tenure on that job was

3 over, did others take over in that position?

4 A We had two vehicles mentioned. One

5 was on the East Coast. One was on the West

6 Coast.

7 If I remember correctly, the

8 East Coast, after I left, was shut down

9 shortly thereafter. The West Coast continued

10 for awhile.

11 Q Now, when you returned to

12 I-Buiding — strike that.

13 You went to the Chemtite plant?

14 A Chemtite.

15 Q For about four years. Is that

16 fair?

17 A Im sorry?

18 Q Were you at the Chemtite plant

19 for about four years?

20 A Approximately.

21 Q And by the way, do you have any

22 records at home that would reflect your job,

23 your specific job duties over the years at

24 Manville?

25 A I think I turned over — turned over

105

1 all the records that were copied.

2 Q That would have been in the

3 records that your counsel gave us?

4 A I believe so.

5 Q Did you ever keep a log while

6 you were employed by Manville as to what you

7 were doing when?

8 A No. No.

9 Q Now, based on what you said in

10 your discovery deposition and what you said

11 this morning, I guess youre not entirely

12 sure when you returned to I-Buiding; it was

13 1970, 1971?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Object to the

16 form.

17 Q Is that your recollection?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 MR. ROMANELLI: You should

20 verbalize yes or no.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I said.

22 MR. ROMANELLI: You said uh-huh.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Im sorry.

24 Q Do you recall the strike at the

25 Manville plant in 1970, sir?

106

1 A Yes, I do.

2 Q When did that occur? When in

3 1970, when did that occur? Do you remember

4 what months were involved?

5 A The only thing I can tell you is warm

6 weather.

7 Q How long was the strike?

8 A I dont recall.

9 Q Months?

10 A It — it lasted a good month, Im

11 sure.

12 Q Did you return to I-Buiding

13 after that strike?

14 A I was salaried personnel at that time.

15 Q I know. My question is

16 inartful.

17 When did you become a salaried

18 employee?

19 A I became salaried the day I went to

20 pipe detail.

21 Q And continued in that

22 capacity –

23 A As a –

24 Q — throughout the rest of your

25 tenure?

107

1 A Salaried. I was always on salary.

2 Q So you were technically a

3 management employee?

4 A Thats correct.

5 Q So did you work during the

6 strike at the Manville plant? Were you doing

7 any work at the facility during that time

8 frame?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And what kind of work were you

11 doing during that period during the strike?

12 A We would package fittings and get them

13 ready for shipment.

14 Q Did any production take place

15 during that time frame?

16 A Actual production, no.

17 Q Now, when you think about that

18 strike, sir, does that refresh your

19 recollection as to what your job was before

20 and immediately after that strike?

21 A My job was?

22 Q In terms of location.

23 A Oh, I was in Manville.

24 Q I understand. But what

25 building?

108

1 A Oh, Chem. Chemtite. And also down

2 plant, but Chemtite. Because I remember one

3 time they wanted, good or bad, they wanted

4 newspaper pictures, pictures of the picket

5 line, stopping everything from going in or

6 out. And they called me down to drive the

7 truck up.

8 Q So during that strike in 1970

9 you were still technically assigned to the

10 Chemtite plant?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Do you recall how long after the

13 strike you moved over to that title?

14 A No, I dont.

15 Q Do you recall what the issues

16 were during that strike, sir?

17 A No.

18 Q Were working conditions and

19 exposure to asbestos issues during that

20 strike?

21 A I — I couldnt say for sure.

22 Q Did you ever get involved in any

23 negotiating with the union during that time

24 frame?

25 A As far as contracts?

109

1 Q Yes, sir.

2 A No.

3 Q Now, when you came back to

4 I-Buiding sometime after that strike, you

5 were a shift supervisor in I-Buiding?

6 A Thats correct.

7 Q I believe you said at your prior

8 deposition that you rotated shifts?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Is there some way for you to

11 prepare what I-Buiding looked like during

12 your first stint there as a full-time

13 employee, and your second stint when you were

14 a shift supervisor, starting as a shift

15 supervisor?

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Object to the

17 form. What do you mean, what it

18 looked like? Was it white, green,

19 blue?

20 MR. RASNEK: If he understands

21 what it looks like, he can tell me.

22 If he doesnt –

23 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you remember

24 what it looked like?

25 A Im going to say there was no

110

1 difference.

2 Q Were there any differences at

3 all between I-Building during those two time

4 frames?

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Object to the

6 form.

7 A No.

8 Q You told us during the first

9 time that you worked there dust collectors

10 were added, right?

11 A Yeah.

12 Q Now, were there more dust

13 collectors added between the time of your

14 first long stint at I-Building and the second

15 time that you returned to I-Buiding after the

16 strike in 1970?

17 A There might have been. Im not sure.

18 There might have been a new dust collector

19 added to the finishing end. But it doesnt

20 change — it doesnt change the appearance of

21 the building.

22 Q Do you recall — you said there

23 might have been a dust collector added at the

24 finishing end?

25 A Right.

111

1 Q Do you recall any other things

2 that may have changed in the I-Buiding after

3 you returned from the strike in 1970?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you describe it as being

6 cleaner at that point, in terms of dust in

7 the air?

8 A I didnt see the change at that point.

9 Q Did you ever see a change?

10 A Not really, no.

11 Q You said at your discovery

12 deposition that you recalled OSHA having some

13 involvement at Manville.

14 Do you recall some OSHA

15 inspection at Manville or visit?

16 MR. PLACITELLA: This is not a

17 question.

18 Q Do you understand my question?

19 Do you recall having testified about an OSHA

20 visit at Manville?

21 MR. PLACITELLA: If he

22 testified, he testified.

23 MR. RASNEK: Im trying to

24 facilitate this. I dont want to be

25 here a long period of time.

112

1 MR. PLACITELLA: Dont answer

2 the question.

3 Next question

4 MR. RASNEK: How can you direct

5 him not to answer?

6 MR. PLACITELLA: I just did.

7 Ask a new question.

8 MR. RASNEK: Youve objected to

9 the form.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: Ask a new

11 question.

12 MR. RASNEK: Im not going to

13 ask a new question. Get the Special

14 Master on the phone.

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Is there

16 somebody else that wants to go, then?

17 MR. RASNEK: Counsel –

18 MR. PLACITELLA: Excuse me.

19 Anybody else have any questions?

20 MR. RASNEK: I am not done.

21 MR. PLACITELLA: Then ask the

22 next question, please. Dont ask

23 questions that have –

24 MR. RASNEK: You have violated

25 the court rules.

113

1 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not

2 violating any court rule. Im doing

3 this as a courtesy to you, as a

4 courtesy to you. Id ask you to be

5 courteous and ask questions that

6 werent asked the first time around.

7 MR. RASNEK: Im trying to ask

8 the next question and Im trying to

9 bring him back to that and do it

10 quickly.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: Please do.

12 MR. RASNEK: We would have been

13 past this already.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Next question,

15 please. Next question, please.

16 Q Sir, do you recall OSHA

17 employees inspecting I-Buiding at any point

18 in time?

19 A Not specifically. But Im sure OSHA

20 has been in there because they had meetings.

21 Not with us, but they had meetings up front

22 or in the office.

23 Q OSHA had meetings with Manville

24 management?

25 A Oh, certainly.

114

1 Q Do you recall when that first

2 occurred?

3 A No.

4 Q Do you recall OSHA ever having

5 cited Manville for any violation with respect

6 to I-Buiding?

7 A No, I cant say for sure.

8 Q During the time that you were

9 working as a shift supervisor in I-Buiding

10 after the strike in 1970 — Im just trying

11 to do that by way of shorthand. Im not

12 confusing, you know, the time period youre

13 talking about.

14 A Youre talking about when I went –

15 Q During the time you were working

16 as a shift supervisor, how many time did you

17 work in the office, as opposed to the plant?

18 A Thats an impossible thing to answer.

19 It depends on what was going on, what was

20 warranted, whatever.

21 We didnt sit in our office. We

22 had to be on the floor.

23 Q Is there any way you can

24 approximate for me how much time you spent on

25 the floor?

115

1 A Not now, no.

2 Q Do you recall having to wear a

3 respirator at any time in the I-Buiding?

4 A Certainly.

5 Q On which occasions did you do

6 that, the mask or respirator?

7 A Any time it was a dusty condition

8 and/or standard operating called for –

9 operation called for it. It depended on the

10 procedure, what equipment.

11 Q Do you have any specific

12 recollection of an event that required you to

13 wear a respirator or mask?

14 A Whenver it was called for, thats when

15 we did it.

16 Q And during that time you were in

17 charge of enforcing the safety requirements

18 for your employees?

19 A Thats correct.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: This has all

21 been asked and answered the first time

22 around. Why are you doing this?

23 MR. RASNEK: I have one or two

24 additional questions. Well be done

25 in a few minutes.

116

1 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats what

2 Columbo said.

3 Q Sir, Im going to ask you one

4 more question.

5 Not to belabor this, but during

6 the time frame were talking about in the

7 1970s when you were in I-Buiding, can you

8 approximate for me how often you would have

9 worn a mask?

10 A Its impossible to tell you. It

11 depends on the occasion, what I was doing at

12 that particular time, day, or whatever it

13 might be.

14 If I had — if I had to

15 supervise a piece of equipment in the

16 willows, I would have to wear a respirator at

17 that point. The operators had to wear a

18 respirator.

19 Q You would follow the rules that

20 your employees would have to follow?

21 A Oh, no question about it.

22 Q During that time frame were

23 talking about, how much vacation time were

24 you entitled to?

25 A At that time, I think it was two

117

1 weeks.

2 Q At that time, when would you

3 take the two-week vacation time?

4 A It varied. I used to take my vacation

5 the last two weeks of August.

6 Q While you where an hourly

7 employee, sir, did you have occasion to

8 complain to any management employees about

9 working conditions at the Manville plant?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you have an occasion to

12 complain after you became a management

13 employee?

14 A No.

15 Q Do you recall ever having looked

16 at bags of asbestos to determine whether or

17 not there were warnings on them in the 1970s?

18 A I dont recall any warnings.

19 Q Do you recall having looked at

20 the bags to determine whether there were

21 warnings?

22 A I saw bags and stuff, but I didnt

23 look for — I didnt look for a specific

24 warning label.

25 Its my assumption that if there

118

1 was a warning label there, its going to

2 stand out and bite me.

3 MR. RASNEK: Thas all I have,

4 sir. Thank you very much.

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you,

6 Counsel.

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUSS:

10 Q My Mr.Avon?

11 A How are you?

12 Q Just a few questions with

13 specific reference to what we marked today as

14 Avon-1 and Avon-2.

15 And Im just going to put these

16 over here. And I may come near you?

17 MR. SUSS: If thats all right,

18 Counsel, just because I dont have a

19 copy of them.

20 Q Are you able to tell us, sir,

21 prior to this afternoon, when the last time

22 was that you ever saw these documents?

23 A No, I couldnt begin to tell you.

24 Q And are you able to indicate to

25 us when you came into possession of those

119

1 documents?

2 A Well, this is — this is Chemtite, so

3 it was during the time that I was working at

4 Chemtite.

5 Q Do you recall when the Chemtite

6 facility opened?

7 A No. It was opened before I got there.

8 Q Do you know whether or not these

9 documents are referenced to a period of time

10 before you went to work there?

11 A Repeat that.

12 Q Do you know whether or not these

13 documents, which weve discussed as Avon-1

14 and Avon-2, are related to a period of time

15 before you went to work there in about 1966?

16 A I would say before and after.

17 Q Okay. With regard to Avon-1 for

18 Identification, there are headings — and

19 correct me if Im wrong — that talk about a

20 description and amount, a vendor and a date

21 ordered and then slash received.

22 Does that look right to you,

23 sir?

24 A Yes.

25 Q There isnt, on the far right

120

1 column, which references the date order and

2 received, as best as I can tell, any year of

3 reference.

4 Are you able to indicate to us a

5 particular year when this particular document

6 would have been referring to?

7 A Im going to say no. As I said, I

8 mean, these months could be any year. They

9 were in effect at the time frame that I was

10 there.

11 Q Are you saying, then, that each

12 of the description of material that appears

13 on Avon-1 for Identification was, in fact,

14 delivered to the Chemtite facility during the

15 entire time period that you were there, or

16 during a time period that you were there?

17 A The items that I am looking at, at the

18 present time, whether it be sanding belts,

19 you know, threaders, spray coating and things

20 like that, those items were being used when I

21 was there.

22 Q But once again, you cant tell

23 whether or not this particular document makes

24 reference to a specific year when you were

25 there?

121

1 A Thats correct.

2 Q On the last pages of Avon-2 for

3 Identification where theres a list of

4 companies, theres some handwriting that

5 appears next to some of the company names.

6 Is any of that your handwriting?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q Do you know whose handwriting it

9 is?

10 A No, sir.

11 MR. SUSS: Thank you.

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KURTZ:

15 Q Hi, again, sir. My name is

16 Mitchell Kurtz. We talked the first day.

17 I have a couple of questions

18 about a vendor that is listed on Avon-2 for

19 Identification. And I believe that name was

20 mentioned here for the first time today, next

21 to high bulk asbestos paper.

22 A Strathmore.

23 Q Yes. Can you tell me what you

24 know about that company?

25 A The only — the only thing I know

122

1 about Strathmore is that we did use

2 Strathmore paper.

3 To the best of my knowledge, it

4 was used as trials, as well as a back-up

5 source.

6 Q Did you use this paper only in

7 the Chemtite building?

8 A To my knowledge, yes.

9 Q Would that be when you were

10 there between 66 and 70?

11 A Yeah. Whenever I was in Chemtite,

12 yeah.

13 Q Can you describe the product for

14 me, if you know?

15 I know you described the other

16 product as toilet paper rolls.

17 A I could only describe it as the same

18 thing.

19 Q Toilet rolls that were in craft

20 paper?

21 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont think

22 he said toilet rolls. I think he said

23 pretty big toilet paper rolls.

24 A Big, big toilet paper rolls.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Not one that

123

1 would fit in your bathroom.

2 A It wouldnt fit through the door.

3 Q Thats a really big roll.

4 A I would be guessing.

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Unlikely to be

6 very soft.

7 A Very unlikely. It was not soft.

8 I would say no. I would be

9 lying if I told you it was in craft paper,

10 stenciled all pretty and everything.

11 Q Okay. Was it packaged in any

12 way? Was there any type of protection around

13 the product?

14 A Any time that type of product came in,

15 it always had craft paper on it. I cant

16 specifically tell you that that particular

17 one had it.

18 Q Craft paper?

19 A Craft paper with a nice stencil. I

20 just cant tell you that.

21 Q How do you know the name

22 Strathmore? Just familiar from –

23 A Im familiar with it because it –

24 well, several things. If we ran out of H&V,

25 as an example, or someone came out and said,

124

1 we want a trial run, they would tell us what

2 to put on.

3 Plus, you have to understand, I

4 was also planning schedule supervisor at one

5 point.

6 Q As a planning scheduling

7 supervisor, would you order a particular

8 product?

9 A On a given time, if we needed it.

10 Q Did you ever specifically order

11 Strathmore paper?

12 A I cant say for sure.

13 Q Okay. Do you know who supplied

14 the Strathmore paper, or did it come directly

15 from the manufacturer?

16 A I dont know the name.

17 Q Could you remember, tell me what

18 color the paper was?

19 A No.

20 Q Did you use the paper the same

21 way you described earlier, when it would be

22 unrolled and used in the machines in the

23 Chemtite plant?

24 A The same as H&V, you mean?

25 Q Yes.

125

1 A Identical.

2 Q The use was identical?

3 A Yes, uh-huh.

4 Q And you described — or rather,

5 you testified — that you would use it as a

6 trial.

7 Would this be — what would a

8 trial be, to try a new supplier or something

9 like that?

10 A New supplier. Strength of the

11 product.

12 Q And did you use Strathmore

13 frequently, or was it seldomly used?

14 A I couldnt compare the use of

15 Strathmore to H&V.

16 Q Why?

17 A H&V was the popular choice, shall we

18 say.

19 Q So was Strathmore used, if you

20 could give me a percentage out of 100?

21 A I couldnt begin to do that.

22 Q But it would be less –

23 A It was seldom used in relation — you

24 know, relatively speaking.

25 Q Besides Strathmore and H&V, were

126

1 there any other paper products that you can

2 recall using?

3 A Not that I recall.

4 MR. KURTZ: Okay. Thank you

5 very much.

6 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody else?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody have

9 Cross, in light of the opportunity to

10 ask some questions, now that youve

11 had the opportunity to ask him

12 whatever questions you want for

13 discovery?

14 MR. RASNEK: Say that again,

15 please.

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you have any

17 Cross, now that youve had the

18 opportunity to ask him whatever

19 discovery questions you have so I

20 would have the opportunity to address

21 any concerns you may raise?

22 MR. RASNEK: I do not. Thank

23 you.

24 MR. KURTZ: I do not.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats it.

127

1 (The witness is excused.)

2 (The deposition is concluded.)

128

1 C_E_R_T_I_F_I_C_A_T_E
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

3 I, MIRIAM ALFANO, Notary Public and

4 Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of New

5 Jersey, do hereby certify that prior to the

6 commencement of the examination

8 WILLIAM AVON

10 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth, the

11 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the

13 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the

14 testimony as taken stenographically by and before

15 me at the time, place and on the date hereinbefore

16 set forth.

17 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am

18 neither a relative of nor employee nor attorney

19 nor counsel for any of the parties to this action,

20 and that I am neither a relative nor employee of

21 such attorney or counsel, and that I am not

22 financially interested in the action.

23 _______________________________________

24 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey

25 License No. XI01114

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Asbestos at Johns Manville New Jersey Caused Mesothelioma

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