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Asbestos Exposures in Sheet Metal Shop Capable of Causing Mesothelioma

Sheetmetal workers were exposed to asbestos raising their risk of mesothelioma both on construction sites and in the shops. The following deposition details some of these exposures.

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-8360-06 AS

3

4 MICHAEL C. GERDING, As
Executor of the Estate of DEPOSITION UNDER
5 AUGUSTUS C. GERDING, ORAL EXAMINATION
OF
6 Plaintiff, FREDERICK FARRELL

7 vs.

8 3M COMPANY, INC.;

9 Defendants.

10

11 Transcript of the deposition of the
witness called for Oral Examination in the
12 above-captioned matter, said deposition being
taken pursuant to Superior Court Rules of
13 Practice and Procedure by and before MARC BRODY,
a Notary Public and Certified Shorthand
14 Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the
INN AT PANTHER VALLEY, Route 517, Allamuchy,
15 New Jersey, on Wednesday, May 21, 2008,
commencing at approximately 11:00 in the
16 forenoon.

17

18

19

20

21
BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES
22 Certified Shorthand Reporters and Videographers
90 Woodbridge Center Drive, Suite 220
23 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095
(732) 283-5737
24

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2

(ROUGH DRAFT – APPEARANCES ARE INCOMPLETE)

1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

2

3 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.

4 115 Maple Avenue

5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701

6 (732) 747-9003

7 BY: RACHEL PLACITELLA, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Plaintiff

9

10 MARKS, ONEILL, OBRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C.

11 6981 North Park Drive, Suite 300

12 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08109

13 (856) 663-4300

14 BY: PAUL SMYTH, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Georgia Pacific

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 PICILLO, CARUSO, POPE, EDELL & PICINI, P.C.

4 60 Route 46 East

5 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004

6 (973) 667-6000

7 BY: RONALD S. SUSS, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, Union Carbide,

9 CertainTeed, Amchem, Notte Supply

10

11 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, EDELMAN & DICKER, LLP

12 33 Washington Street

13 Newark, New Jersey 07102

14 (973) 624-0800

15 BY: GINA CALABRIA, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendant, Ductmate Industries

17

18 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C.

19 23 Vreeland Road, Suite 220

20 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

21 (973) 822-1110

22 BY: NANCY GIACUMBO, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendants, Duro-Dyne,

24 Safeguard, Schering Plough, Raritan, DAP

25

4

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 RONCA, HANLEY, NOLAN & ZAREMBA, LLP

4 5 South Regent Street, Suite 517

5 Livingston, New Jersey 07039

6 (973) 994-2030

7 BY: JOHN RONCA, JR., ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, York Industries

9

10 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN

11 216 Haddon Avenue

12 Westmont, New Jersey 08108

13 (856) 858-7200

14 BY: RYAN M. KOOI, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendants, Passaic Metal

16 Products Co., Central Jersey Supply, Co.,

17 Karnak Corp.

18

19 GARRITY, GRAHAM, MURPHY, GAROFALO

20 & FLINN, P.C.

21 One Lackawanna Plaza

22 Montclair, New Jersey 07042

23 (973) 509-7500

24 BY: MICHAEL P. MCGRATH, ESQ.

25 Attorneys for Defendant, State Insulation

5

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 LAVIN, ONEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO

4 190 North Independence Mall West

5 Suite 500

6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106

7 (215) 627-0303

8 BY: EDWARD FINCH, ESQ.

9 Attorney for Defendant, Verizon

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19 SEGAL, McCAMBRIDGE, SINGER & MAHONEY, LTD.

20 103 Carnegie Center, Suite 103

21 Princeton, New Jersey 08540

22 (609) 452-1558

23 BY: LISA WILDSTEIN, ESQ.

24 Attorneys for Defendant, Garlock, Inc.

25

6

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 KENT & McBRIDE, P.C.

4 555 Route 1 South

5 Woodbridge Towers, 4th Floor

6 Islin, New Jersey 08830

7 (732) 326-1711

8 BY: STEPHEN DENARO, ESQ.

9 Attorneys for Defendant, Mooney Brothers

10

11 GIBBONS, P.C.

12 One Riverfront Plaza

13 Newark, New Jersey 07102

14 (973) 596-4500

15 BY: ROB BROWN, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendant, Hoffmann-LaRoche

17

18 HARRIS BEACH, LLP

19 100 Wall Street

20 New York, New York 10005

21 (212) 687-0100

22 BY: ROBERT SCHAEFER, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Kentile Floors, Inc.

24

25

7

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP

4 200 Park Avenue

5 New York, New York 10166

6 (212) 802-9100

7 BY: MARISSA BANEZ, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Robert A. Keasbey

9

10 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP

11 85 Livingston Avenue

12 Roseland, New Jersey 07068

13 (973) 535-0500

14 BY: CHRISTOPHER ABATEMARCO, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Frank A. McBride

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8

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):

2

3 SEDGWICK, DETERT, MORAN & ARNOLD, LLP

4 3 Gateway Center

5 Newark, New Jersey 07102

6 (973) 820-1133

7 BY: STEVEN SINGER, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Foster Wheeler

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9

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS PAGE

3 FREDERICK FARRELL

4
Direct by Ms. Placitella 11
5
Cross by Mr. McGrath 68
6
Cross by Ms. Wildstein 77
7
Cross by Mr. Singer 94
8
Cross by Mr. Abatemarco 95
9
Cross by Mr. Gilbert 96
10
Cross by Mr. Suss 123
11

12

13

14

15 E X H I B I T S

16 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

17 P-1 SUBPOENA AD TESTIFICANDUM

18 D-1 Hand drawn diagram

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

10

1 MR. FINCH: Ted Finch and I am here on

2 behalf of Verizon. We received a phone call

3 approximately three weeks ago advising of this

4 deposition.

5 MS. PLACITELLA: A very nice lady.

6 MR. FINCH: A nice lady advising that

7 Verizon may be brought into this lawsuit based

8 on the testimony of Mr. Farrell.

9 We are also advised that theres a

10 possibility that obviously we may be scrapped,

11 joined as a party. To date we are not aware

12 the complaint has been amended or that Verizon

13 has been joined in this action. Therefore, my

14 presence here is not a waiver of any objections

15 we may have to service, jurisdiction or any

16 other objections we may have.

17 In addition, the very nice lady I spoke

18 with also advised me that we would be receiving

19 some materials including answers to

20 Interrogatories and possibly a transcript from

21 prior depositions in this matter and to date I

22 have not received anything. Therefore, we are

23 not waiving our right to possibly redepose

24 Mr. Farrell upon receipt of that information.

25 Im not saying it is going to be necessary. If

2

1 we get the information and we have the

2 opportunity to review it there may be some

3 additional questions that may arise from the

4 materials we receive.

5 MS. PLACITELLA: Thats fair.

6 MS. RUSSONIELLO: My appearance at the

7 deposition here does not waive any objections

8 we have to being named as a defendant in this

9 action including, but not limited, to do

10 service of process and jurisdiction.

11

12 F R E D E R I C K F A R R E L L,

13 2 Park Terrace, Andover,

14 New Jersey, sworn.

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PLACITELLA:

15 Q. Mr. Farrell, do you mind if I call you

16 Fred?

17 A. You play.

18 Q. Thank you. As you know, Im Rachel

19 Placitella. It is my understanding that you have

20 been sent a subpoena for todays appearance?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we have that marked on a break. Do

23 you understand that you have been subpoenaed as a

24 witness in a case involving the estate a Augustus

25 Gerdling?

3

1 A. Yes..

2 Q. Did you know Gus while he was living?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you refer to him as Gus?

5 A. Among others, yes.

6 Q. Among other names?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the other names you dont want to

9 mention?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. In what context did you know Gus?

12 A. As a co-worker and as my foreman and as I

13 supervisor.

14 Q. What place of employment would that be?

15 A. Both Capital and Folander.

16 Q. Capital, would this be Capital Sheet

17 Metal?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what job occurred first, Capital Sheet

20 Metal or —

21 A. Capital.

22 Q. When did you start at Capital?

23 A. 1960.

24 Q. 1960?

25 A. Yes.

4

1 Q. When you started in 1960 was Gus working

2 also?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. And how long did you personally work at

5 Capital?

6 A. Until 1963.

7 Q. When you left Capital was Gus still

8 working or had he left before you?

9 A. He left before me.

10 Q. Do you recall around what year he left?

11 A. Im going to say he left in 1962 plus or

12 minus a couple of months.

13 Q. He worked at Capital —

14 A. Folander.

15 Q. Until 61 or 62. Somewhere around there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when you left Capital in 1963 where

18 did you go to work?

19 A. I wound up at Folander.

20 Q. Did you go to Folander directly from

21 Capital?

22 A. No, I had a couple of short jobs in

23 between.

24 Q. When did you come to Folander? Round what

25 year?

5

1 A. 1963.

2 Q. Around 1963?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you started at Folander in 1963 was

5 Gus working there at that point?

6 A. Yes, Gus was working there.

7 Q. Did you work there from 1963 continuously

8 until you retired?

9 A. No, I didnt.

10 Q. Did you work back and forth at Folander

11 and other jobs?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you retire from the sheet metal

14 entry?

15 A. Three years ago.

16 Q. 2005?

17 A. I believe April 2004. Whatever that works

18 out to.

19 Q. Do you recall when Gus stopped working for

20 Folander?

21 A. Im not positive.

22 Q. Thats fine. Am I to understand both

23 Folander and Capital are companies that deal with

24 the sheet metal industry?

25 A. Correct.

6

1 Q. Were there products used at Folander on a

2 regular basis that you and/or Gus worked with?

3 A. Yes. All the companies basically used the

4 same items.

5 Q. Im going to go through some products and

6 Im going to ask you whether they were used at

7 Folander and/or Capital Sheet Metal. For the moment

8 lets concentrate on Folander because that was a

9 longer period of time, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have an occasion to work with any

12 gasket materials?

13 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

14 Leading.

15 Q. You can answer.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was gasket material used on a regular

18 basis in the sheet metal industry?

19 A. Very much so.

20 Q. Do you recall whether or not you used

21 Garlock gaskets?

22 A. Garlock, yes. The asbestos Garlock

23 gasketing, yes.

24 Q. Did you have an occasion to see Gus

25 working directly with Garlock gaskets?

7

1 A. We worked together, so yes.

2 Q. Not only did Gus use Garlock gaskets did

3 you ever have occasion to see him in the vicinity of

4 others who were using Garlock gaskets?

5 A. Yes. We all used it.

6 Q. Did you have an occasion to use or see

7 CertainTeed transite pipe used on jobs while you

8 worked at Folander?

9 MR. SUSS: Objection to the form.

10 Q. You can answer.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you explain to me what type of

13 applications CertainTeed transite pipe was used?

14 A. It was mainly used underground. It was

15 the forerunner of the fiberglass conductor and

16 buried underground.

17 Q. Did you ever see Gus working directly with

18 the CertainTeed transite pipe?

19 A. Yes, we worked together.

20 Q. Could you tell me what it looked like?

21 A. Came in mainly 10-foot lengths, anywhere

22 from 6 inch to 3-foot in diameter. Thickness

23 3/4s — depending on the size of the diameter, it

24 would go from half to 1 inch.

25 Q. Did it have any labeling on the pipe that

8

1 you recall?

2 A. I just remember the CertainTeed. They had

3 decals on CertainTeed. Thats all I remember.

4 Q. Did you ever see Gus cut the CertainTeed

5 pipe?

6 A. Yes. Thats how we made transitions and

7 elbows.

8 Q. In addition to cutting the pipe themselves

9 do you recall Gus being in the vicinity of others

10 cutting the pipe?

11 A. We were all in the vicinity.

12 Q. Was that a dusty process?

13 A. Horrible.

14 Q. Do you recall if Gus wore a mask?

15 A. Nobody wore masks back then.

16 Q. What appliance was used to cut the

17 CertainTeed pipe? Do you recall?

18 A. We used circular saws with a transite pipe

19 cutting blade. They have similar blades today. We

20 also used Sawzalls and cut-off saws for the smaller

21 pipe.

22 Q. Do you recall whether or not Gus ever used

23 a carborundum blade?

24 A. Yes. He had to. Thats the way we did

25 it.

9

1 Q. Did Folander have Carborundum blades at

2 the shop?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. Was there cutting done at the work site as

5 well as at the shop?

6 A. Both.

7 Q. What did the Carborundum blades look like?

8 A. They were flat, toothless difference with

9 granular pieces a box seed or imbedded into the

10 blade to cut through the pipe.

11 Q. Did you see the name Carborundum at all on

12 the —

13 A. That was a common name. I dont remember

14 too many other blades. They were Carborundum. They

15 were called Carborundum also at that time.

16 Q. Did you ever see the boxes they came in?

17 A. I did see them. I couldnt give you any

18 particulars on it.

19 Q. Did you see them at the shop?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see them at the various work sites

22 that you were at with Gus?

23 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have an occasion during your work

10

1 at Folander to use different kind of products for

2 connecting ductwork to the roofs at work sites?

3 A. Yes. We used black masking, whats called

4 roofing cement with gas, a black gauze cloth that

5 held it together.

6 Q. And do you recall the names of the

7 different kinds of roofing cement that you used?

8 A. I do remember the Black Cat.

9 Q. You remember Black Cat at the work site?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember Gus using the Black Cat

12 roofing product?

13 A. I used it, he used it. Did the same job.

14 Q. What about Karnak cement, do you recall

15 if that was on a job site?

16 MR. RONCA: Objection.

17 A. That was a very popular brand. That was

18 widely used.

19 Q. Do you remember Karnak cement at various

20 work sites?

21 MR. RONCA: Objection.

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Do you recall whether there was Karnak

24 cement at the shop as well?

25 MR. RONCA: Objection.

11

1 A. Im not sure.

2 Q. Is that a type of product that would be

3 sent directly to a work site?

4 A. Yes. Thats where we would wind up having

5 it delivered, directly to the job site.

6 Q. Do you recall whether or not you and/or

7 Gus ever used CertainTeed plastic cement?

8 MR. SUSS: Objection to the form.

9 Q. You can answer.

10 A. Im sorry.

11 Q. You can answer the question. Do you

12 recall what the question was?

13 A. Please repeat the question.

14 Q. Do you recall whether or not you and/or

15 Gus ever used CertainTeed plastic cement at job

16 sites?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Again, it was kind of a standard in the

19 industry.

20 Q. What would that be used for?

21 A. CertainTeed. Please mentioned the name of

22 it again.

23 Q. Plastic cement.

24 A. The plastic cement was also roofing bond

25 for waterproofing duct work in relation to the roof

12

1 tiles.

2 Q. Do you recall ever using a product by the

3 name of DAP?

4 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection.

5 Q. At any work sites?

6 A. Yes. I did use DAP.

7 Q. What was application?

8 A. Well, the DAP was a joint compound that we

9 would put with the ductwork when we were putting it

10 together, and Im trying to think. When we put

11 casings, building rooms out of metal to section it

12 off, instead of a sheetrock wall they would use

13 metal fabrication and DAP would be part of how it.

14 Q. How would it be applied?

15 A. Caulking guns, spreading devices. I cant

16 think of the name of the implement.

17 Q. Do you recall Gus using it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At job sites?

20 A. Yes. Again, when we worked together we

21 worked together.

22 Q. Do you recall Gus using the CertainTeed

23 plastic cement you just you spoke about?

24 A. The roofing cement, yes.

25 Q. These products that we just talked about

13

1 which would be the DAP, Karnak, Black Cat roofing,

2 CertainTeed plastic cement, was that a dusty process

3 when you applied it on the roofing materials?

4 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

5 A. Not all of it. More of it was when you

6 jostle it around or you would have to remove the

7 piece to refit. Not everything in a building is

8 made perfect. A lot of times things had to be

9 moved. Thats when dust really got created, the

10 transite pipe or the pipe was devastating with the

11 dust.

12 Q. With the adhesive products we just spoke

13 about, did you notice whether it would get on your

14 hands or did you see whether it would get on Gus

15 hands or clothing?

16 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

17 A. We tried to wear gloves, but it had a

18 habit of getting on everything. Thats why we used

19 it. It was a great adhesive. Quality product, but

20 it stuck to your hands, your clothes, the seat of

21 your car and anything else that it came into contact

22 with. Stayed with you.

23 Q. Do you recall whether or not it was dusty

24 to try to remove the dried on product from your

25 hands and clothes?

14

1 MR. SUSS: Objection.

2 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection.

3 A. When you broke it off it left a dusty

4 residue.

5 Q. Do you recall whether or not 3M duct

6 sealers or duct tape were at the job sites?

7 A. Constantly since they were developed.

8 Q. And do you recall Gus using these

9 products?

10 A. Again, we worked together. If I used it,

11 he used it.

12 Q. In what applications would they been used?

13 A. Duct tape was used for flexible

14 connections. Duct tape was used for everything. It

15 is used today in all walks of life.

16 Q. Do you recall whether or not Gus ever had

17 occasion to use a Benjamin Foster sealant on the

18 job?

19 MR. SUSS: Objection to the form.

20 A. Yes, he did. That was another popular

21 product used by our companies, Folander, Capital.

22 Q. What was that used for?

23 A. That was to make sure that the duct was

24 air tight and passed inspection. We used it in

25 connections which at that time were box locks and it

15

1 would be put in the box locks and around the

2 outside.

3 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were at

4 any jobs where Gus was present and Georgia Pacific

5 joint compound was at the jobs?

6 MR. KOOI: Objection to the form.

7 A. Georgia Pacific, green and white can

8 bucket. They were on probably 70 percent of the

9 jobs. The answers would be yes. that was part of

10 our job.

11 Q. What was part of your job?

12 A. To be in these buildings while other

13 trades were in there such as the dry wall, spackle

14 people. That was a normal day at work.

15 Q. Do you recall what other trades people

16 were on jobs on a regular basis?

17 A. A full compliment. You had anywhere from

18 plumbers, pipefitters, iron workers, insulators,

19 duct workers, of course, sheet metal workers,

20 carpenters, electricians. We all worked at the same

21 time on the same job.

22 Q. Do you recall being at any job sites with

23 Gus where Georgia Pacific joint compound was being

24 sanded?

25 MR. KOOI: Objection to the form.

16

1 A. I would say yes Do you need a specific

2 job?

3 Q. If you remember, otherwise Im sure there

4 were a lot of jobs. If you remember, you can tell

5 us.

6 A. Any time they built or rebuilt any of the

7 Bell buildings Gus and I would be there. You could

8 say most of those had the spackle products.

9 Q. Was it a dusty process when it was sanded,

10 if you recall?

11 A. Yes, very much so.

12 Q. Do you recall Gus ever welding during the

13 course of his employment?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall what welding products he

16 used?

17 A. We mainly used Lincoln and Hobart welding

18 rods, bracing. We have Evidor, is what they used to

19 call it, electric bracing.

20 Q. Do you recall the type of welding rods

21 that Gus would use —

22 A. I would say Lincoln was a very popular

23 brand.

24 Q. Do you remember the numbers?

25 A. 6011, 6013, 7020. Wait a minute, the

17

1 numbers dont come to mind as quickly as they used

2 to. 7014. There was popular rods. I dont recall

3 all the rest of the numbers. There were a half

4 dozen rods that we used consistently.

5 Q. In addition to Gus welding was he around

6 others that welded?

7 A. I was mainly the welder. Gus filled in

8 when he could. He wasnt a good welder.

9 Q. Why is that?

10 A. Why wasnt he a good welder?

11 Q. Was he impatient? What was the reason

12 why?

13 A. He was mainly my foreman. I was supposed

14 to be doing 90 percent of the work and he would be

15 overseeing the projects and I dont think he got to

16 put as much as you called, it patience into welding.

17 It is an art, not a job. Put it that way.

18 Q. Do you recall whether Gus used any

19 Duro Dyne flex connectors on the job?

20 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection.

21 A. Yes, he did. We put many, many roof units

22 on and all of them require a vibration eliminator

23 which is what the Duro Dyne product represented on

24 the job.

25 Q. Can you explain to me what the Duro Dyne

18

1 flex connectors were used for and how they were

2 applied?

3 A. We would put a roof fan up and before you

4 could connect the duct work to the fan you would

5 have to have a flexible connection in there.

6 Many a time they had to be of a

7 fireproof design which meant that they would have

8 that asbestos cloth separating the two metal runners

9 that got connected, one to the fan, one to the duct

10 work.

11 Q. How would it be sealed together?

12 A. We used some of that Foster-Wheeler on

13 that. Also duct tape, staples. Thats basically

14 covering it.

15 Q. Im going to go through a list of

16 suppliers that we learned about during the course of

17 the case. I want you to please tell me whether or

18 not you recall any the names of the companies and

19 whether you recall any of the particular companies

20 supplied to Folander?

21 A. Ill try.

22 Q. Before I go to the list I want to do ask

23 you, were you in charge at all of ordering supplies

24 at Folander?

25 A. No. I had — when I ran work I had the

19

1 option you of going to some of these companies to

2 pick products up that I needed specifically for my

3 job, but an out and out major order was always

4 through the shop.

5 Q. Were items delivered to the shop and also

6 work sites?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Who made the decision whether the product

9 should go to the shop or the work site?

10 A. Mainly that decision laid with the people

11 in the office and the time constraints on the job.

12 A lot of times it was more convenient and time

13 saving to have it shipped directly to the job rather

14 than put in storage and then pulled out later.

15 Q. American Hardware?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall that?

18 A. Yes, I do. Freddy. I cant think of his

19 last name.

20 Q. Who was Freddy?

21 A. Freddy was the owner of American Hardware.

22 Q. Do you know if Folander had an account

23 with Freddy at American Hardware?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall what items Folander received

20

1 from American Hardware?

2 A. Originally when Folander started almost

3 all hardware, screws, glue, hardware cloth, nuts,

4 bolts. He supplied 80 percent of what Folander used

5 on his jobs when he started out.

6 Q. Would gasketing material come from

7 American Hardware?

8 A. The majority of it would, yes.

9 Q. Would the sealants that we spoke about

10 already —

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All the sealants we named?

13 A. Would come out of American Hardware.

14 Q. And the roofing cement?

15 A. Again, yes.

16 Q. Passaic Metal? Do you recall that name?

17 A. Yes.

18 A. They supplied a lot of the metal products

19 and also Passaic the vibration cloth. I dont

20 recall if you could — I cant think of the name of

21 it now. It escapes me, but yes.

22 Q. Do you recall whether or not you got the

23 Duro Dyne from Passaic Metal?

24 A. Thats what I was trying to remember the

25 Duro Dyne name, yes.

21

1 Q. York Industries, does that name sound

2 familiar in connection with your work at Folander?

3 A VOICE: Objection to the form.

4 A. The name is familiar, but I wouldnt swear

5 to them in connection with Folander.

6 Q. Notte Safety Appliance Company, can you

7 say verbally for the record? You cant nod your

8 head.

9 A. That a no.

10 Q. Certain Jersey Supply?

11 MR. KOOI: Objection.

12 A. I dont remember.

13 Q. Mooney Brothers?

14 MR. DeNARO: Objection to the form.

15 Q. Do you know that name?

16 A. I dont recall.

17 Q. Raritan Supply?

18 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

19 Q. Let me rephrase.

20 Do you know Raritan Supply as a

21 supplier to Folander?

22 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

23 A. In the later years, yes.

24 Q. What later years would that be?

25 A. That would encompass in the low 80s to –

22

1 That was about the last time I worked for them.

2 Q. Safeguard Industrial, do you know that

3 company in connection with Folander?

4 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

5 A. I dont recall.

6 Q. State Insulation, do you know that

7 company?

8 A. State insulation, I remember them very

9 well.

10 Q. In what connection do you remember State

11 Insulation?

12 A. They were a very big supplier for the

13 insulation industry at that time.

14 Q. Do you recall them as a supplier to the

15 Folander shop?

16 A. Yes. I do remember their trucks coming

17 in. I didnt handle the products coming off at that

18 time. I was an older mechanic, but yes.

19 Q. Do you recall what products came off the

20 truck?

21 A. They also carried a lot of the roofing

22 cements, the gasketing that we used, the 3M

23 products, but as I said, I didnt unload the trucks

24 I remember them coming in.

25 Q. Do you remember Elizabeth Industrial?

23

1 Objection to the form?

2 A. Not offhand. I dont remember.

3 Q. Do you remember Keasbey?

4 MS. BANEZ: Objection.

5 A. I remember Keasbey in connection with

6 again the insulation products that they would

7 deliver. Again I didnt unload the trucks.

8 Q. Do you recall Keasbey making deliveries to

9 the Folander shop or was it to the work site?

10 A. Work sites that I remember.

11 Q. Do you remember any specific work sites

12 Keasbey delivered to that you and Gus were at the

13 jobs?

14 A. I cant recall.

15 Q. Do you recall Westinghouse on any jobs

16 that you and Gus were at?

17 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

18 A. Westinghouse was on the majority of early

19 jobs in connection with the elevators that I can

20 recall.

21 Q. Did they manufacture the elevators or did

22 they —

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. They manufactured the elevators?

25 A. Yes. We had occasion to work in the

24

1 Westinghouse manufacturing facility near Jersey

2 City. I cant recall exactly where. We did a job

3 in there.

4 Q. What did you do?

5 A. We put some exhaust fans in for them.

6 Q. When you say we, was that you and Gus?

7 A. Gus was on the job for a few days. Not

8 the whole time.

9 Q. What time frame was this job at

10 Westinghouse in Jersey City?

11 A. The year?

12 Q. Around what year?

13 A. If I may have a minute to think.

14 Q. If you can give me the decade?

15 A. Im going to say I would like to give you

16 the correct year. I was driving a Chevy truck. It

17 had to be in the 70s and I would say around 78.

18 Q. Are there any other suppliers that you

19 recall that supplied products to Folander that we

20 havent talked about?

21 A. Not that I can remember.

22 Q. Were there any suppliers that delivered to

23 Capital Sheet Metal while you and Gus were there

24 that we have not already talked about?

25 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

25

1 A. There were other suppliers, but they dont

2 come to mind now.

3 Q. I would like to talk about work sites that

4 you worked, places where you worked with Gus during

5 the course of your career at Folander first. Do you

6 recall working at any Bell buildings with Gus?

7 A. Folander and Capital, but Folander built

8 his business on his connection with the Bell system

9 or Bell Company and we did his — the majority of

10 work he did was in the Bell buildings.

11 The one that specifically comes to

12 mind was the one, one of the Bell buildings in

13 Newark we put a bomb shelter in.

14 Q. Do you recall the location of that Bell

15 building?

16 A. I cant give you the number, but it was

17 right off of Broad and Market in about a block or

18 so.

19 Q. That was Newark?

20 A. Newark. One of their major buildings.

21 Gus and I worked on that job.

22 Q. Do you recall around what some frame that

23 was?

24 A. That was in the 60s.

25 Q. When you said you built a bomb shelter in

26

1 the basement, was there anything specific that was

2 already in the basement that you had to rip out?

3 A. The room itself was fairly clear. We had

4 to demo or demolition a few things. The shaft on

5 the way up through the building we had to go up all

6 the way through all the floors and come out the roof

7 and then down the side of the building. There was a

8 lot of demolition work on that job.

9 Q. What specifically did you have to demolish

10 in the basement?

11 A. There was some duct work, old duct work in

12 there that had been there previous for whatever

13 reason. Generally some ceiling tile.

14 Q. What did you do after the demolition?

15 What did you do specifically there?

16 A. Then we built the bomb shelter in the

17 basement.

18 Q. Was this during the Cold War?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you use the products that we have

21 already spoken about when you built the bomb shelter

22 at the Bell building in Newark?

23 MR. DeNARO: Objection.

24 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

25 A. They were the common products of the day.

27

1 Q. Which are? Can you tell us?

2 A. The sealants. We went through the roof,

3 used all the roofing products. They specified

4 specifically about trying to get the duct completely

5 sealed as to no contaminant supposedly could get in.

6 I didnt understand it. That was the

7 specifications. So we used a lot of sealant.

8 Thats about it.

9 Q. Did you use the Duro Dyne duct connectors?

10 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

11 A. Yes. For the air supply, the blowers.

12 Q. Do you recall whether or not you used

13 Certainteed transite pipe at that job?

14 MR. SUSS: Objection to the form.

15 A. Not on that job.

16 Q. Do you recall who the mechanical

17 contractor that hired Folander at that job?

18 A. I dont recall.

19 Q. Do you recall who the general contractor

20 was at that job?

21 A. I cannot recall.

22 Q. Do you recall whether there were other

23 trades working next to you and Gus at the Newark

24 facility?

25 A. As the duct work was done the insulators

28

1 were there, the brickers.

2 Q. What is a bricker?

3 A. Bricklayer. They still made things out of

4 brick. Bell specified.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. The laborers, electricians, a full

7 compliment of a workforce.

8 Q. Do you recall whether or not the pipe

9 coverers were working near you and Gus at that job?

10 A. Yes. They were following us up with their

11 insulation and of course they had their own projects

12 with the piping which had to be covered.

13 Q. Do you recall when you worked there with

14 Gus if it was — if the air was dusty?

15 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

16 A. Every job I ever worked on was dusty.

17 There was no such thing as clean air in those

18 buildings.

19 Q. Do you recall any other Bell buildings you

20 worked at with Gus for Folander?

21 A. The one that comes to mind is we did a

22 beautiful job down in Oak Tree, I thought it was Oak

23 Tree, New Jersey, but it was Oaktree Road down

24 Middlesex in the Bell think tank where all the ideas

25 came from and we put up in the middle of the

29

1 building we put a flowered — It was a glassed in

2 area with ventilation.

3 Q. Like a conservatory?

4 A. Thank you for the name. A conservatory.

5 Q. You said conservatory and then you said a

6 think tank building?

7 A. That was right inside the building. We

8 built the conservatory inside of a building.

9 Q. So the think tank was the outside

10 structure?

11 A. Think tank was all the people around us.

12 Q. A lot of brainiacs there?

13 A. Yes. Thats where their brain power or

14 brain trust, developed all that ideas. In other

15 words, they didnt make a product, they thought of a

16 product.

17 Q. In other words, inside the building was

18 this conservatory?

19 A. All welded iron, beautiful, glass.

20 Q. Do you recall what years you and Gus were

21 at that site?

22 A. That would have been in the 70s.

23 Q. Was that the early 70s? Do you recall?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall how long that job lasted?

30

1 A. Yes. It was about three months. There

2 was a short stoppage for redesign of about a week.

3 It was about three months.

4 Q. What was Gus position with Folander

5 during that job, if you recall?

6 A. He was supposed to be my supervisor but

7 Gus is a hands-on type person when he would come

8 down. I would have him working with me clamping up

9 the angle iron and the iron to be welded and we

10 would do our welding, things like that.

11 Q. When he was a supervisor, the term

12 supervisor, was he there every today or did he go to

13 other jobs and come back?

14 A. No. He would go to other jobs and come

15 back, but on average he would stop three times a

16 week.

17 Q. Do you recall what products were used at

18 this Oak Tree facility when you worked there with

19 Gus?

20 A. There was a lot of welding and gasketing.

21 There was no worries about air sealant.

22 Q. Do you recall the manufacturer of the

23 welding materials you used at that site?

24 A. We used a lot of Lincoln products because

25 thats the type of machine we had. We had to use

31

1 the gasketing on that job also. That would be the

2 asbestos gasket when the glass got clamped and

3 bolted into place.

4 I didnt put the glass in. I had

5 glued the gasketing on to the metal so that the

6 glazer could come in later and slide the glass in

7 and clamp it.

8 Q. Do you recall the manufacturer of the

9 gasketing material?

10 A. I can picture it, but I cant put a label

11 on it.

12 Q. Would it have been the Garlock material

13 you had said was at the Folander shop?

14 A. That was one of the popular ones.

15 MS. WILDSTEIN: Objection.

16 A. Trying to picture the label on the

17 packaging. I cannot remember.

18 Q. Do you recall any other products that you

19 used at that site?

20 A. Not specifically.

21 Q. Do you recall whether you and Gus were

22 around other trades doing work?

23 A. On that job we mainly had the laborers.

24 Of course, the concrete brickers, whatever you want

25 to call them. I dont recall too many other trades

32

1 there at that time. We were mainly working on our

2 own.

3 Q. Going back to the Newark facility, I

4 forgot to ask you.

5 A. Which Newark facility? With the bomb

6 shelter?

7 Q. Right. What was Gus job title with

8 Folander at that job site?

9 A. He was the foreman.

10 Q. As a foreman would he be at the job site

11 everyday?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you recall about how long did that job

14 last?

15 A. I cannot recall how long. It was quite a

16 job.

17 Q. Was it years or months, if you remember?

18 I dont want you to guess.

19 A. It was months.

20 Q. Thats fine.

21 A. It wasnt years.

22 Q. Regarding the Oak tree, I dont mean to

23 confuse you —

24 A. Thats okay.

25 Q. Would that have been somewhere in the

33

1 vicinity of Middlesex County, Edison area?

2 A. Down the Parkway.

3 Q. That was the location?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall who the mechanical

6 contractor was on that job?

7 A. No, I dont know.

8 Q. Do you recall who the general contractor

9 was on that job?

10 A. Im sorry I cannot come up with it.

11 Q. Do you recall working at any other Bell

12 building with Gus?

13 A. We did. First let me say we probably did

14 50 buildings in New Jersey, but one of them was down

15 in Hackensack where we put an emergency diesel

16 generator in the building and built the exhaust

17 system for it.

18 Q. This was a Bell building in Hackensack?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall around what time frame you

21 worked there?

22 A. That was also in the 70s.

23 Q. Was that before the Oak Tree Road or

24 after?

25 A. Yes. That was before the Oak Tree job.

34

1 Q. Was that considered new construction or

2 renovation?

3 A. New construction. The diesel engine we

4 put in or we didnt put it, we exhausted it, but the

5 building was existing. I dont know how to define.

6 Q. The building was existing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did the diesel generator go?

9 A. They pulled the old generating system out

10 and put a brand new system in. I guess that would

11 be renovation. Sorry.

12 Q. Thats fine.

13 A. I misspoke.

14 Q. There was renovation?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall about how long that job

17 took?

18 A. Through about a months work. Again, not

19 straight. There would be a break of a day or two

20 here or there because of other trades having to get

21 into the area that we were working in to get their

22 end of it done so that we could come in and finish

23 our end.

24 Q. What products did you use in doing the

25 duct work?

35

1 A. That was a nice one.

2 Q. What does that mean, it was a nice one?

3 A. They had a titanium exhaust stack

4 vibration eliminator we put in that was a specialty

5 order. Supposedly they wouldnt tell me how much it

6 cost, but they told me that I better leave the

7 country if I destroyed it.

8 That was all gasketing again because

9 the exhaust temperatures were quite high on that and

10 of course you had to run all the exhaust duct up and

11 out through the roof again which we used all the

12 common products.

13 Q. Did you use Duro Dyne in —

14 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

15 A. Used Duro Dyne on the exhaust, yes.

16 Q. Did you use the roofing products you

17 already spoke about today?

18 A. Yes. Up on the roof itself we had a

19 special unit right below the roof to heat transfer

20 which required the asbestos gasketing doubled over

21 and put around the — I cant design it with my

22 hands.

23 We used asbestos gasketing in there,

24 quite a bit of it.

25 Q. I dont recall if you answered the

36

1 question about if you used the roofing cement

2 products that we spoke about.

3 A. Yes. Going through the roof.

4 Q. Do you recall if there were other trades

5 people around when you and Gus working at this

6 Hackensack facility?

7 A. Again, the plumbers, fitters, carpenters,

8 insulators, electricians. They all were around.

9 Q. Do you recall whether or not it was a

10 dusty work places at Hackensack?

11 A. Yes. Short answer what was Gus job title

12 at that job was supervisor.

13 Q. At that Hackensack job did he come to the

14 job everyday or did he come in between checking on

15 other jobs?

16 A. That job he was there quite a bit because

17 he also sketched the pieces that we needed. He was

18 also a draftsman.

19 Q. Did he sketch other jobs while you were

20 working?

21 A. Yes. Had to be on the job.

22 Q. While he was sketching while Gus was

23 sketching was he in close proximity to your work?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall who the mechanical

37

1 contractor was on this job? I have to ask these

2 questions even throw you may not remember. Im

3 sorry.

4 A. Thats quite all right. Ill have to give

5 you the same answers. I dont recall.

6 Q. Do you recall the name of the general

7 contractor at that job?

8 A. I dont recall.

9 Q. Do you recall Kentile floor tiles on any

10 of the jobs you and Gus worked at?

11 UNKNOWN VOICE: Objection to the form.

12 A. Yes. Kentile did a lot of the flooring in

13 the Bell buildings, not the people. They were

14 installed in the Bell buildings.

15 Q. Were you and Gus in the vicinity when the

16 floor tile was being installed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were at

19 any job sites where you and Gus had to do work on a

20 Foster-Wheeler boiler?

21 MR. SINGER: Objection.

22 A. I worked at Foster Wheeler Company, but

23 no, I cant recall.

24 Q. Do you want to take a break?

25 A. No, I want to get through this.

38

1 ( Recess taken )

2

3 Q. You indicated so far three buildings that

4 you and Gus had worked at that were Bell buildings,

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. One was Oak Tree Road in Middlesex County,

8 one was in Newark and one was in Hackensack,

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You just indicated to me off the record

12 before we started that you recalled another

13 building?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where was that located?

16 A. That was another think tank in Whippany.

17 We had a one-year project in there where we did all

18 the renovation work, Folander.

19 Q. Do you recall what years that was? Was

20 that before the other jobs or after we already spoke

21 about?

22 A. Let me see if I can place it. That would

23 have been after the bomb shelter, but before the

24 other two.

25 Q. That would be the late 60s?

39

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was Gus at that job?

3 A. Yes, he was my supervisor. He was there

4 two, three times a week going over the projects and

5 making sure the work was done to Bells

6 specifications.

7 Q. You said that was renovation work?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was done?

10 A. It was a monster building right off of

11 Route 10. Maybe monster is the wrong word.

12 Q. I didnt get that.

13 A. Stop typing.

14 Q. Thats all right. Keep going. Very large

15 building and due to their projects that they would

16 be working on we would have to rearrange certain

17 areas to suit their requirements for whatever

18 projects they were developing.

19 I was there for one year as sketcher,

20 estimator, foreman, worker and we would bring in

21 Local 22 men to supplement my laborers and Gus was my

22 supervisor and sometimes worker.

23 Q. What products were used in this renovation

24 work, if you recall?

25 A. We used mainly duct sealant, again, duct

40

1 tape, 3M products. They were very big on air

2 percentage. In other words, they didnt want the

3 air contaminated by other parts of the jobs they

4 were working on and any time that we had black iron

5 work it had to be gasketed with — Ill get it.

6 With the white gasketing that we were using. I

7 cant think of the name of it.

8 Q. Are you talking about a manufacturers

9 name or a type of product?

10 A. We used — going through the roof it had a

11 wood roof which was unusual at the time due to the

12 design of the building. So we used a lot of the

13 Black Cat and the other mastic which is what we

14 called it going through the roof for all intents and

15 purposes, but what we would do there is they would

16 have us rebuild a room.

17 They would rip it out and then we

18 would come in and run all new duct work up and

19 through the attic, through the roof and new fans,

20 but we would use a lot of existing areas. They

21 would put a bigger fan where a smaller fan was.

22 That meant we would have to rip up the old. We

23 called them mushroom fans or exhaust fans and

24 replace them with larger or dual purpose units.

25 Q. Who did the demolition work you spoke

41

1 about?

2 A. When it came to duct work we did our own.

3 Each trade demos its own. Thats why theres a

4 union.

5 Q. Did you use the flexible duct connectors

6 in that job also?

7 MS. GIACUMBO: Objection to the form.

8

9 A. Not all of the rooms were renovated, but

10 on some of the rooms we renovated.

11 Q. Were you around other trades on that job

12 in Whippany?

13 A. Yes, again, full compliment. We had the

14 carpenters, electricians, plumbers, fitters,

15 insulators, the roofers.

16 Q. Was it a dusty work environment, if you

17 recall?

18 A. We worked in the attic most of the time so

19 yes there was a horrendous air fallout.

20 Q. Do you remember on that job any of the

21 products that any of the other trades used on that

22 job?

23 A. Well, the pipefitters. Im trying to

24 think of something that — of course, the insulators

25 used the insulation. They did. Because of the

42

1 wooden roof they did some of the — they used a

2 fireproofing which had asbestos in it. Now I find

3 out a very thin board to protect the wood where

4 exhaust would go up through due to the fire codes.

5 Q. Was that a transite board?

6 A. Thats it, transite.

7 Q. Do you recall the manufacturer of the

8 transite board, if you know?

9 A. I cant recall.

10 Q. Do you recall any other products that were

11 on the job site by other trades?

12 A. Not offhand, no.

13 Q. Do you recall if there was Kentile floor

14 tile at the Whippany building that was installed

15 while you were there?

16 A VOICE: Objection.

17 A. Yes. The Kentile flooring, again Kentile

18 people didnt put it down. A rug layer or tile guys

19 would come in and do that.

20 Q. Do you recall who the mechanical

21 contractor was on that job?

22 A. On that job there was no mechanical for

23 me. That was strictly right through Folander.

24 Folander had the maintenance contract. It was done

25 under maintenance.

43

1 Q. Who did they have the maintenance

2 contractor with?

3 A. Bell Labs.

4 Q. So Folander reported directly to Bell

5 Labs?

6 A. Yes. He reported to Bell Labs. Bell Labs

7 had a gentleman who was put in charge of

8 renovations. Gus and I worked directly with him.

9 Q. Do you recall —

10 A. He would give us a project. We would give

11 him an estimate and we would get the job, but it was

12 automatic.

13 Q. I see.

14 A. There was nobody else.

15 Q. Do you recall the name of this guy from

16 Bell Labs?

17 A. He is dead. Not offhand.

18 Q. Was this arrangement at the Whippany

19 building where Folander worked directly for the

20 individual from Bell Labs, was that a different

21 arrangement than the other three buildings you

22 worked at?

23 A. Yes. Bell would hand out maintenance

24 contracts each year I guess through a bidding

25 process. Only way I can figure it.

44

1 Q. Do you recall any other Bell buildings

2 that you and Gus worked at other than the ones we

3 already spoke about?

4 A. There were many more and they just dont

5 come to mind anymore.

6 Q. Im going to go through other job sites

7 that we have already learned about in this case and

8 I would like to ask you if you recall working at any

9 of those job sites.

10 Do you recall whether you and/or Gus

11 were at the Sandoz building in East Hanover?

12 A. I was not there.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether

14 Gus was at that —

15 A. Gus worked at Sandoz.

16 Q. But you dont know have any personal

17 knowledge about what went on there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Schering-Plough, did you work at the

20 Schering-Plough building?

21 A. I didnt work at the Schering-Plough

22 building.

23 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to

24 if Gus was there and what he did?

25 A. Folander had jobs with Schering-Plough

45

1 which would have put Gus there as he was the outside

2 superintendent for Folander, but I dont have

3 knowledge of that.

4 Q. Did you ever work at the Hoffman-LaRoche

5 site?

6 A. I worked there many times for many

7 companies.

8 Q. Did you ever work at the Hoffman-LaRoche

9 site for Folander?

10 A. Not for Folander.

11 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about

12 Gus doing any work at Hoffman-LaRoche for Folander?

13 A. I dont recall.

14 Q. Did you ever work at the M & M building.

15 A. Yes, I worked there for Folander.

16 Q. What years did you work for Folander at

17 the M & M building?

18 A. I can remember the last time I worked

19 there was in the 80s. I cant remember.

20 Q. Do you recall if Gus was at that site at

21 the M & M building while you were there?

22 A. Yes. Gus was the outside superintendent.

23 That was another job where Folander had the

24 maintenance contract but they were there for 30 some

25 odd years. Strange. The foreman they had there for

46

1 that long died early.

2 Q. Who?

3 A. Joe worked with his son. I cant think of

4 his last name. He was there for at least 30 years

5 straight.

6 Q. Was the guy you just spoke about, Joe the

7 foreman, was he an employee of Folander?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He was the guy that was on site for

10 Folander at M & M?

11 A. Yes, maintenance contractor.

12 Q. As far as you are aware was it Gus

13 responsibility to go and supervise that work site?

14 A. Thats what the outside super does.

15 Q. If you are aware for the whole 30 years

16 that Folander had this contract with M & M and was

17 it Guss responsibility to check on that site as an

18 outside super?

19 A. Gus left Folander after about. He left in

20 the 70s. He probably only worked there 15, 18

21 years.

22 Q. I understand from this case that Gus left

23 for a short time and came back, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You are saying obviously he couldnt have

47

1 worked for M & M for Folander during the time he

2 left?

3 A. Yes. He was there. When he worked for

4 Folander he was responsible for the M & M jobs.

5 Q. Do you know as far as during the earlier

6 years, the 70s, late 60s or 70s do you have any

7 knowledge as to what the contract with Folander and

8 M & M entailed?

9 A. No. I was not privy to that.

10 Q. You dont know what work Folander did for

11 M & M?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Thats what I want to know.

14 A. We only do what they ask, of course. Our

15 jobs ranged from putting up catwalks and pipe

16 railings which we welded into place, the duct work

17 to get the candy dust out of the buildings or the

18 smell.

19 Q. Theres a smell? You didnt like that

20 smell?

21 A. It was nice for a day, but I lived in the

22 apartment right next door. It becomes overwhelming.

23 Q. You lived in the apartment next door?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The smell would travel, I guess?

48

1 A. Yes. Terrible. We also rebuilt certain

2 types of machinery what you would call delivery

3 systems. We would weld racks into place where the

4 candy boxes were grouped together. They would

5 travel throughout the building to where they would

6 become a finished product.

7 We had or at least I had the

8 opportunity to develop some of that equipment.

9 Q. Could you explain to us generally what

10 products were used at this site?

11 A. From my part I did welding there. There

12 wasnt a lot of going through the roof. They were

13 pre-existing holes. All we did was mask them up.

14 It has a rubber roof so we would just put that

15 masking around the base of the roof curve and then

16 the roofers would bring in the rubber roof up and

17 over. It wasnt a normal job.

18 Q. When you say that mastic was that the

19 products that we spoke about, Black Cat. I dont

20 know if you are supposed to tell me, but the other

21 name I can picture the can. I cant come up with

22 the title.

23 Q. Another product of roofing material?

24 A. Correct. There were two. I dont know

25 whether it was due to the suppliers, their

49

1 preference or whether it was Folanders preference,

2 but Black Cat and this other one kept showing up job

3 after job. Maybe it was the prices. That, I dont

4 know.

5 Q. If you remember the other product let us

6 know.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You indicated the last time you worked at

9 M & M. Do you recall the first time you worked

10 there?

11 A. I worked there in the 70s. Trying to

12 think. I put some filtering systems in, dust

13 collectors, you might call them. Again, asbestos

14 cloth, gasketing.

15 Q. Did —

16 A. Yes, he worked with — not everyday, but

17 yes, I did put him to work helping me with there.

18 Q. Did they give you any candy when they

19 worked there?

20 A. As a matter of fact, I worked there, I got

21 four bags and also the engineer when I finished the

22 job give me eight boxes of chocolate covered

23 almonds.

24 Q. Not bad.

25 A. I almost got fired. We were not allowed

50

1 to take anything out of the building. My boss

2 Folander, John saw me leaving with all the candy and

3 thought I was stealing it.

4 Q. You straightened that out?

5 A. I had the engineer talk to him. He was

6 pleased with my work.

7 Q. Did you work at the School of Dentistry

8 for Folander in Newark?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell me when you worked at the

11 School of Dentistry?

12 A. That was in the 70s. Pardon me. Im

13 wrong. I worked at the School of Dentistry, but it

14 was for Capital.

15 Q. When you worked at the School of Dentistry

16 for Capital did Gus work with you at that time?

17 A. Yes. He was a foreman at that time.

18 Q. This was for Capital Sheet Metal?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether

21 Folander ever worked for the School of Dentistry?

22 A. I dont have knowledge of that. There

23 were two buildings side by side. There were four

24 companies. I dont remember what they did. I

25 remember what I did.

51

1 Q. The School of Dentistry that you worked at

2 for Capital Sheet Metal, that had to be in the early

3 60s?

4 A. At that point almost put them out of

5 business.

6 Q. Let me clarify. You said you worked for

7 Capital Sheet Metal from 60 to 63. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Correct. I worked for them over a period

10 of 43 years 20 times.

11 Q. Let me clarify. Is it correct to say

12 during the period of your career in sheet metal you

13 worked for Folander and then there were times you

14 would leave Folander, take other employment and go

15 back to Folander?

16 A. There were times I went back to Folander.

17 There were times I worked for other companies. In

18 our trade, or lets say some people in our trade

19 like myself dont — after a job is over we leave.

20 We go to another company and then finish, go to a

21 job there. In other words ,it is a hopscotch.

22 Q. Thats not necessarily true regarding Gus

23 employment, correct?

24 A. Gus was very fortunate.

25 Q. Gus stayed with for Folander for a long

52

1 period, left for a short period and came back. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. He went to Capital.

4 Q. Didnt he go to Capital in the beginning

5 of his career in the early 60s, thats where you

6 first met him, right?

7 A. Gus was at Capital when I got there. He

8 left for Folander. I joined him a year later. I

9 worked for 3 to 5 years at Folander with him. Then

10 I left and then I came back maybe for a one-year

11 clip, sometimes two years over the next 30 years or

12 so.

13 Q. So now we are talking about the School of

14 Dentistry.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall how many times you worked at

17 the School of Dentistry?

18 A. Once on the original building.

19 Q. So it was one time in the original

20 construction?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you aware of whether Folander was

23 there doing renovations later on?

24 A. I was not aware.

25 Q. Do you recall any products that you and

53

1 Gus would have used at the School of Dentistry?

2 A. That was a new building when I worked

3 there and it had a full compliment of the same usual

4 suspects with the gasketing, the duct tape by the

5 hundreds of miles, the 3M glue to do the seam work.

6 They also started using it on the

7 inside of the duct, I guess, for condensation. I

8 didnt do any of the roof work, but I know they had

9 roof work done that I did part of the penthouses.

10 That was for the air handlers. Again, exhaust work.

11 Q. Do you recall who the mechanical

12 contractor was on that job?

13 A. I dont recall.

14 Q. Do you recall who the general contractor

15 was on the job?

16 A. I dont recall.

17 Q. Did you ever work at the Martland Hospital

18 in Newark?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to

21 whether Gus worked at the Martland Hospital in

22 Newark?

23 A. Not personally. I dont know.

24 Q. Did you have an occasion to work at any

25 job that you recall where Frank McBride was a

54

1 mechanical contractor?

2 MR. ABATEMARCO: Objection.

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. What job was that?

5 A. Probably 20 times over a 43 year career I

6 worked for Frank McBride Company. I also worked for

7 the Frank McBride Company before they changed their

8 name. They used to have fitters and sheet metal

9 workers, separate companies within a company. I

10 worked for Frank McBride Sheet Metal.

11 Q. When you worked for Frank McBride Sheet

12 Metal was that one of your hiatuses from employment

13 with Folander?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Im interested in any jobs that you worked

16 for Frank McBride when Gus was on the job. Can you

17 recall —

18 A. I worked in the shop when I worked for

19 Frank McBride.

20 Q. Were there occasions when you worked for

21 Folander with Gus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When Frank McBride was mechanical

24 contractor on the job site?

25 A. I cant recall.

55

1 Q. You can not recall the specific job site.

2 Is that what you are saying?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But there were job sites?

5 A. Yes. They did a lot of work together.

6 Q. Did Frank McBride have a relationship with

7 Folander, business relationship?

8 A. From what I understand.

9 Q. Do you recall a company by the name of

10 Frank Briscoe?

11 A. I heard the name.

12 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about

13 them being on any job sites?

14 A. I cant recall.

15 Q. Atmos Engineering, do you have any —

16 MS. RUSSONIELLO: Objection.

17 A. Atmos.

18 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Atmos

19 Engineering about being on any job sites where you

20 and Gus worked?

21 A. I dont recall? I cant recall.

22 Q. Do you recall any job sites in the 60s

23 that you worked at with Gus that we have not talked

24 about today?

25 A. I can remember specifically working with

56

1 Gus on the Luberplate Building in Down Neck, Newark.

2 Only a one month job. Standard jobs. A lot of

3 welding, but as far as anything specific, other than

4 that, no.

5 Q. Do you recall any job sites you worked at

6 with Gus in the 70s that we havent spoke about

7 today?

8 A. None come to mind.

9 Q. Are there any jobs that you worked at with

10 Gus while you were employed, while you were both

11 employed for Capital Sheet Metal that we havent

12 discussed today?

13 A. None that I recall.

14 Q. Are there any products that you and Gus

15 used at Capital Sheet Metal that we have not already

16 talked about today?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I dont think I asked you about a product

19 called Duct Mate.

20 UNKNOWN VOICE: Objection.

21 Q. Did you ever use a product called Duct

22 Mate in your sheet metal business?

23 A. Everybody did. Duct Mate from the time

24 it was developed, we used it in all the shops. It

25 became the superseding of what we called the

57

1 connection box lock. There was a connection called

2 the box lock that Duct Mate literally took over for.

3 Q. When did you first use Duct Mate?

4 A. I remember using it in the 70s. Exactly

5 what year, I cannot recall.

6 Q. Can you describe for me the particular

7 products?

8 A. Duct mate, when they make duct work it

9 comes out with a raw edge. Duct Mate came with an

10 end cap that allowed us to clip the duct together

11 instead of crushing it together before the four

12 corners get bolted. They are separate. You put a

13 gasketing material in between it. It was a rope

14 material for the most part and metal clips that you

15 had a special tool that you clipped on the sides of

16 the Duct Mate. It was used to put all the ducts

17 together. I dont know if I described that well.

18 Q. Did we have an occasions to meet prior to

19 today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I came to your home?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall when that was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Several months ago, right?

58

1 A. Several months ago.

2 Q. About how long was our visit?

3 A. Couple of hours.

4 Q. It wasnt that long. I know I was

5 probably borring you to tears.

6 A. I hate to say it, I dont remember. We

7 did meet. We did talk.

8 Q. Did we talk about Gus and his work

9 history?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did I ask you about what products Gus had

12 used at job sites?

13 A. Yes, you did.

14 Q. Did I ever at any point suggest to you

15 about what you could talk about today?

16 MR. SUSS: Objection to the form.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did we meet again this morning?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did I go over with you what the procedure

21 was going to be today?

22 A. Thankfully, yes.

23 Q. Before today had you ever had your

24 deposition taken?

25 A. No.

59

1 MS. PLACITELLA: Thats all I have.

2

3 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. McGRATH:

4

5 Q. I have a few questions for you. As I

6 understand this when you worked for Folander did you

7 ever order materials from any supply house?

8 A. Did I ever order?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I would go and pick them up directly.

11 Q. Thats my next question. Start with that.

12 Which supply houses did you go to pick up materials

13 from?

14 A. Mainly I had an account with Freddy.

15 American Hardware.

16 Q. Other than Freddy do you recall picking up

17 materials for Folander anyplace else?

18 A. As an apprentice I was sent out with the

19 truck to pick them up. The metal company we were

20 talking about earlier, but nothing specific comes to

21 mind.

22 Q. The metal company you went to pick up

23 stuff, where was that company located?

24 A. Passaic.

25 Q. Same question when you worked at Capital,

60

1 did you go anyplace to pick up anything?

2 A. They were one block apart, the companies.

3 They dealt with the same. In fact, Folander — are

4 you familiar with the history?

5 Q. Not completely. Maybe you should fill me

6 in. What is the history that I should know?

7 A. Folander was one of the original

8 estimators for Capital and decided he would go into

9 business on his own and make more money doing so.

10 He left, moved into a building one block away and

11 became a competitor.

12 Q. During the time you worked for Capital did

13 you pick up materials other than the metal shop you

14 told me about in Passaic and Freddy?

15 A. Not really.

16 Q. During the time you worked for Capital did

17 you have to call any supply houses to get material?

18 A. No. I was an apprentice at Capital.

19 Q. What years were you an apprentice?

20 A. 1960 through 64.

21 Q. During the years you were working for

22 Folander did you have to call any supply house to

23 pick up anything?

24 A. No. Done through the office.

25 Q. At Capital did they have some sort of a

61

1 storeroom or supply room? Anything like that?

2 A. All sheet metal companies have a

3 storeroom.

4 Q. At Capital if you needed material did you

5 help yourself or you was there a supply person that

6 passed things out?

7 A. Both.

8 Q. Were you ever assigned to work in the

9 supply room at Capital?

10 A. No. I was a sheet metal worker.

11 Q. Same question. At Folander were you ever

12 assigned to work in the supply room?

13 A. No. Again, I was a sheet metal worker.

14 Q. At Capital did you ever help them out

15 doing inventory or anything like that?

16 A. Not to my recollection.

17 Q. At Folander did you ever help them out

18 doing any inventory?

19 A. Not to my recollection. Excuse me, sir.

20 They really didnt do inventory. It was more we

21 need — we are out of this and the office would

22 order it.

23 Q. I think I know the answer, but I have to

24 ask. At Capital did you have anything to do with

25 paying for the materials?

62

1 A. No.

2 Q. How about at Folander?

3 A. No. Never had to pay.

4 Q. At either of these jobs did you handle the

5 invoices at all?

6 A. No, not directly. When I went there, like

7 American Hardware to pick anything up, he would give

8 me a small bill for what I picked up. No prices,

9 what I picked up. That would go to the office.

10 Q. The only time you were handling the

11 paperwork was for the materials you picked up. You

12 had to have a record for the office so they know

13 what you got?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What about if material was delivered to a

16 job site, did you have anything to do with receiving

17 materials on the job site?

18 A. Other than taking it off the truck at

19 times, no.

20 Q. Did you ever unload any trucks at the

21 Folander shop?

22 A. Oh, yes.

23 Q. Did you ever unload —

24 A. As an apprentice.

25 Q. Did you unload trucks at the Capital shop?

63

1 A. As an apprentice.

2 Q. The fellow that was the supervisor at

3 M & M, was his name Burke, Joe Burke?

4 A. How could I forget Burke? Wonderful guy.

5 Q. You told me earlier when Ms. Placitella

6 was asking you questions you knew the name State

7 Insulation and you saw they were a supplier to the

8 insulation trade. Did I get that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. These are union shop?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Customarily if it is a union job site it

13 is pretty much all union contractors?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Theres rules about who does what trades?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who does what work?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there any job sites where for some

20 reason you were installing insulation on a pipe?

21 A. We insulated duct work at times in the

22 shop. I would say 95 percent or more of the

23 insulation was done by the insulators.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. There were times where brothers were in

64

1 that particular area.

2 Q. The duct work we are talking about, air

3 handling type of systems, hot air, cold air?

4 A. Exhaust filtering, dust collecting.

5 Q. Are they normally insulated with a

6 fiberglass material?

7 A. Normally, yes.

8 Q. In the course of doing your work you did

9 ever unload a State Insulation truck?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever stand around and watch

12 somebody else?

13 A. Yes. Six of my relatives are insulators.

14 Q. What are the names of your relatives?

15 A. Steitz. Three brothers.

16 Q. Did you watch them on some job sites?

17 A. My cousin was, yes.

18 Q. Do you know who he worked for at that

19 time?

20 A. He worked for all of the insulating

21 outfits.

22 Q. On any of the jobs you were on did you see

23 your cousin or any of the other insulators using

24 fiberglass materials?

25 A. Im sorry?

65

1 Q. Did you see them using fiberglass

2 insulation on jobs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever hear of an insulation known

5 by the brand name Foamglas, F O A M G L A S?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You are smiling.

8 A. Yes. You know what foamglas smells like?

9 Q. Like rotten eggs.

10 A. Yes. Thats heat absorbing.

11 Q. Did you ever see anybody using any cork

12 insulation on any job?

13 A. Work?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No, not to my recollection.

16 Q. Have you ever heard of urethane

17 insulation?

18 A. I heard of it. I wouldnt know it if I

19 tripped over it.

20 Q. Do you know what mineral wool insulation

21 is?

22 A. Ive seen mineral wool very early in my

23 career.

24 Q. Have you ever heard of something called

25 Super Powerhouse cement?

66

1 A. No, not offhand.

2 Q. Have you ever seen the insulators putting

3 plastic covers over the elbows and pipes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. PVC elbows?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know whether or not State

8 Insulation delivered any of the PVC elbows?

9 A. I couldnt say.

10 Q. Do you know whether or not State

11 Insulation delivered any of the fiberglass?

12 A. I imagine they did.

13 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge one way

14 or the other as to whether or not State Insulation

15 delivered any fiberglass?

16 A. Personal knowledge? Im going to say no.

17 Q. Let me ask you. When the State Insulation

18 truck came do you remember any writing on any of the

19 packages that came off the State Insulation truck?

20 A. I can tell you the colors, white and blue.

21 Insulation is fiberglass. They dont make it out of

22 concrete.

23 Q. Do you have any information as to what

24 State Insulation delivered to any job sites?

25 A. Those plastic elbows and coverings you

67

1 were talking about is what would come off the

2 trucks. As far as what brand or anything, I have no

3 real knowledge.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not State delivered

5 any of the foamglas?

6 A. Not to my personal knowledge. I have it

7 at home if you need it.

8 Q. No, I dont. You said something before

9 and Im not sure if I remembered you correctly. Did

10 you say it was your believe State delivered gaskets

11 or maybe I misunderstood?

12 A. I believe they did.

13 Q. What makes you think State delivered

14 gaskets?

15 A. That was a multi-purpose product.

16 Q. The gaskets?

17 A. Yes. It came — didnt just come in one

18 form, it came in many forms. Sheets, rolls.

19 Q. Ill tell you what is bothering me. You

20 can tell me what you think. The man that owns the

21 company, who ran it from the beginning, they never

22 sold gaskets. He said that. Thats why Im puzzled

23 by your testimony.

24 A. It is not my —

25 MS. PLACITELLA: He wants to ask you a

68

1 question.

2 A. It is not my point to ask.

3 Q. Here is my question. If you were to hear

4 him say that, that they never —

5 A. I would be surprised.

6 Q. You would be surprised?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever take any gaskets take off a

9 State Insulation truck?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know where it was you think you saw

12 gaskets coming off of a State Insulation truck?

13 A. As far as a job?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Not specifically.

16 MR. McGRATH: Nothing further.

17

18 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. WILDSTEIN:

19

20 Q. Im Lisa Wildstein. I have some questions

21 I want to ask you as well.

22 Am I correct that you cannot recall a

23 specific location having worked with a Garlock

24 gasket when the plaintiff was present?

25 A. That would be correct.

69

1 Q. I wanted to ask you some follow up

2 questions regarding details of when the plaintiff,

3 Mr. Gerding, was a supervisor. Tell me if you have

4 a job description of the type of supervisory

5 position that Mr. Gerding held?

6 A. In other words, explain what he did?

7 Q. Not him in particular, but the job

8 description for the position he held when he was

9 acting as a supervisor.

10 A. In sheetmetal he would be — he ran the

11 outside. In other words, the construction site for

12 the sheetmetal workers. He was involved in all

13 facets of our work. Any questions or problems would

14 be run through him. Generally I only speak for him.

15 I was trying not to overrun your

16 thoughts. Dont worry. There are some supervisors

17 that are hands on, some that wouldnt get their

18 hands dirty if their life depended on it. Gus was a

19 hands on, jump in and help type person.

20 Q. I never went want to interrupt. Are you

21 done?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to follow up. When you say as a

24 supervisor Gus would have been responsible and

25 involved in all facets of the work, did he maintain

70

1 an office at each of the facilities where he was

2 acting as a supervisor or in a supervisory position?

3 A. Only on some jobs. Most of the time he

4 was traveling job to job to job.

5 Q. On an average how many jobs would he have

6 going at once?

7 A. I cant answer that.

8 Q. Considering i know —

9 A. I dont know.

10 Q. Considering I know nothing about it, would

11 it be fair to estimate that on average it would be

12 between 5 and 15 jobs, something less than that,

13 something greater than that?

14 A. A week, a month?

15 Q. When he was working on a particular job.

16 Im trying to get some kind of idea how many other

17 jobs he would be supervising as well at one time?

18 MS. PLACITELLA: If you know.

19 Q. Im trying to get some kind of average

20 because I have no idea.

21 A. I cant give you an answers. In our job

22 the title supervisor is very nice, but in actuality

23 as I told you I worked for 20 or 30 companies in my

24 life.

25 In a single company you can have ten

71

1 jobs going at one time or one going at a time. What

2 would happen is each supervisor when theres four or

3 five jobs, he might have to check on them. He will

4 take a day and go to two or three different jobs and

5 come back to his main job, but when work is slow,

6 our supervisors become workers.

7 Q. Can you give me any kind of percentage

8 estimate as to the amount of time Gus would have

9 have been in a true supervisory position as you

10 described as opposed to more of a —

11 A. True supervisor.

12 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You can

13 answer.

14 A. I would say 30 percent.

15 Q. Can you tell me as we sit here today any

16 of the job sites we have discussed where Gus was in

17 a true supervisory position?

18 A. He didnt help?

19 Q. Correct.

20 A. None. I wouldnt have that happen.

21 MS. PLACITELLA: What does that mean?

22 A. I was a foreman for most of my career.

23 When somebody came on the job, including John

24 Folander, if I need something done, I expected it to

25 be all hands.

72

1 Q. That said, a supervisor was in a

2 supervisory position and somebody working was in a

3 working positions. It would not be the supervisor

4 doing the work first, it would be the worker, then

5 if we needed the supervisor, last in line.

6 Q. Im a little unclear as to the exact time

7 periods you actually worked with the plaintiff in

8 whatever position he held or you hold.

9 Could you tell me the first time you

10 worked with him?

11 A. First time?

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. Would have been in 1960 when we worked in

14 Capital.

15 Q. How long did that last tha you worked with

16 the plaintiff?

17 A. Couple of days.

18 Q. When was the next time you worked with

19 him?

20 A. A week later.

21 Q. My question was unclear. Im looking for

22 consecutive time periods you actually worked with

23 the plaintiff. You told me the first time was with

24 Mr. Gerding at Capital?

25 A. Yes.

73

1 Q. In the 60s?

2 A. From 60 to —

3 Q. Consecutively?

4 A. We worked for the same company. Me being

5 an apprentice, I would be in the shop in what you

6 would call on call.

7 Q. I understand you wouldnt always be side

8 by side.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the same shop working together, what

11 time periods?

12 A. 1960 to 1963 and with Folander from around

13 63 to, Im trying to think when I left there. I

14 know I left there in 65, came back, I think I spent

15 two more years in that range. I cannot be specific.

16 There were too many jobs I worked on and too many

17 companies I worked for. I did have a workbook a

18 couple years ago unfortunately I shredded

19 everything.

20 MS. PLACITELLA: When?

21 A. I was retired I was happy. Wanted to

22 forget everything. In fact, I did too good a job.

23 Q. From 63 to about 65 did you work at

24 Folander with Mr. Gerding?

25 A. Yes.

74

1 Q. When was the next period of time you can

2 recall having worked with him?

3 A. Couple of years later. Im 1967 to —

4 something. Say mid 70s.

5 Q. 1975. Is that a fair estimation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were you working together from 67

8 to 75?

9 MS. PLACITELLA: He already told about

10 that.

11 MS. WILDSTEIN: I understand he testified.

12 Im clarifying. I thought it was a little

13 muddy.

14 A. What happened is —

15 Q. Theres no question pending. When was the

16 next time you worked together with Mr. Gerding?

17 A. Over the years.

18 Q. Just your best estimate. You told us 67

19 to 75. When was the next time you can recall

20 having worked with him?

21 A. I cannot put a figure on it. Sorry.

22 Q. Do you recall the next decade that you

23 worked with him?

24 A. In the 80s.

25 Q. Would that be the mid, late 80s?

75

1 A. Say the mid 80s. If I may take a minute

2 here, I tried to explain before. I later on after

3 this business in the 70s with the gas crunch and

4 everything.

5 I spent more time jumping from

6 company to company to company to get the best amount

7 of money. There are times I know when Gus left

8 Folander, I wound up working at Capital with him for

9 three or four months. I found a better job and

10 left. Very haphazard career, but it is a career.

11 Q. You are thoughtful and giving great

12 answers.

13 A. Trying to be fair.

14 Q. I know you are. I dont want to take up

15 more of your time than necessary.

16 A. I have time.

17 Q. I got big plans. Let me ask you the

18 questions and if you know the answers, give me an

19 answer. If not, Ill move on.

20 A. Good.

21 Q. You have a lot to say. I appreciate it.

22 MS. PLACITELLA: He just wants to make

23 sure he is being clear.

24 MS. WILDSTEIN: I understand.

25 Q. You told me you can specifically recall

76

1 having worked with Mr. Gerding from 63 to 65 for

2 Folander from 67 to 75 for Folander and then from

3 60 to 63 at Capital?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Any other time you can specifically recall

6 sitting here today having worked with Mr. Gerding?

7 A. Yes. I can remember many times, but not

8 the dates.

9 Q. You described a process at Folander and at

10 the Bell think tank on Oak Tree Road. I want to

11 flow up. I was unsure what you were describing.

12 You use gaskets and you used it with a glass that

13 got clamped and you would actually glue the

14 gasketing on to the metal.

15 A. Yes. So it would stay in place until the

16 glaziers came in and put the glass in.

17 Q. When you were using glue to put the

18 gasketing on, assuming you were not disturbing the

19 gasketing —

20 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You can

21 answer.

22 A. Unfortunately, no. What you have to do is

23 put it — spot the glue down the rail and then you

24 have to cut it. When you start cutting it it gets a

25 little frayed and we were idiots. We took files and

77

1 edged it so that you wouldnt see that when the

2 glass was in there.

3 Q. What form did that gasketing take? Was

4 that sheet gasketing?

5 A. A roll about this wide.

6 Q. You are saying —

7 A. Asbestos gasketing.

8 Q. Three inches thick?

9 A. No. More like an inch and a half.

10 Q. Later on you also talked about while you

11 were at Bell in Hackensack that you were working on

12 something, you said it was very expensive if you

13 ruined it, you would have to leave the country.

14 A. Titanium.

15 Q. What was it called?

16 A. Titanium flex connection.

17 Q. What was the purpose of the titanium flex

18 connection?

19 A. So when the diesel generator ran it

20 wouldnt shake all the duct work off the building.

21 Q. You said you were using gasketing on that

22 titanium flex connector?

23 A. It was hot exhaust. Every connection got

24 gasketing caulked.

25 Q. What type, shape or form did that

78

1 gasketing come in that you are describing?

2 A. That was a roll of gasket and it had a

3 ladder effect in the middle so you could put your

4 bolts through and the caulking was out of a bucket

5 or gallon can, whatever.

6 Q. Do you know the brand name or manufacturer

7 of that caulking? When you say caulking, are you

8 using that term interchangeably with the term duct

9 sealant?

10 MS. PLACITELLA: He answered duct

11 sealant.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Every time you refer to duct sealant you

14 are referring to —

15 A. Theres a couple of different types. They

16 all do about the same job.

17 Q. We talked about sealants. How about

18 caulking? Do you know any brand names or

19 manufacturers of caulking we have yet to discuss

20 here today?

21 A. Not offhand.

22 Q. You told us about a process you would use

23 when working with gaskets and you said it was called

24 doubling over. I thought you used that term.

25 A. I remember using doubling over. What

79

1 respect?

2 Q. I was going to ask you. Im not sure.

3 What did you mean when you said doubling over? Do

4 you know?

5 A. We had so many different ways. I wish you

6 had asked me right off the bat.

7 Q. When you apply these gaskets on the

8 conrners where the bolts go through, you overlap

9 them, doubling over so that when the bolt goes

10 through naturally it has more gripping power than

11 clips.

12 If the gasket overhangs, depending on

13 the material you are using, stainless, aluminum,

14 galvanized, black iron, at times you might put the

15 gasket on and roll it so that it becomes thicker

16 where the duct comes together on the outside.

17 Q. I understand.

18 A. I hope so. Sounds confusioning I can

19 picture it.

20 Q. Then you told us another process while at

21 the Bell building in Whippany, New Jersey also

22 involving gaskets. I didnt understand that fully.

23 You said you used gasketing on black iron work and

24 it was a white gasketing. What white gasketing?

25 What was that made of, if you know?

80

1 A. I know. It will take a second.

2 Q. Take your time. If it helps refresh your

3 recollection you told me or us you used it through a

4 wood roof. Does that help?

5 MS. PLACITELLA: If you remember let us

6 know.

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. PLACITELLA: Next question.

9 Q. The next question is you told us brand

10 names of manufacturers of products here today.

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. PLACITELLA: He wants to write it

13 down.

14 A. It bothers me. Temporary memory.

15 Q. If you want to take a minute to do that,

16 that is okay. I dont want to keep talking while

17 you are doing that.

18 A. Go ahead. Up through the roof.

19 MS. PLACITELLA: Different question now.

20 Q. Do you have issues with your short term

21 memory? You started to tell me about —

22 MS. PLACITELLA: Dont we all?

23

24 A. How old are you?

25 Q. Thirty-seven. I shouldnt jinx myself.

81

1 A. Lets wait a little while. Lack of

2 concentration. Being home as a retired person I get

3 to talk to myself all day and not use my

4 conversational skills I used to have and therefore,

5 things dont come to me as quickly as they used to.

6 Q. I lost my train of thought.

7 You told us about brand names and

8 manufacturers of various products here today. What

9 I want to ask you is other than what you told us,

10 what other brand names or manufacturers of gasketing

11 did you work with throughout your career?

12 A. Brand names?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I dont recall.

15 Q. Did you ever work with any Armstrong

16 gasketing?

17 A. Armstrong? / I only remember them as

18 flooring.

19 Q. Did you work with Armstrong flooring?

20 A. No. It was on the job.

21 Q. Did you ever work with any gasketing

22 manufactured by Owens-Corning?

23 A. I dont recall.

24 Q. Were you ever on jobs where Owens-Corning

25 asbestos-containing products were being used?

82

1 A. Thank you. Asbestos. That was the answer

2 to your last.

3 Q. Tha was the name of the material, the

4 white material was asbestos?

5 A. Yes, it was called — the workers called

6 it asbestos gasketing. That was heat resistant.

7 Q. Thats all right.

8 A. Repeat the last question.

9 Q. Were you ever on any jobs working where

10 asbestos-containing products manufactured by

11 Owens-Corning were used, pipe covering, insulation,

12 anything of that nature?

13 A. I might have been, but I dont recall.

14 Q. Do you know a product by the name of

15 Kaylo, K A Y L O?

16 A. I cant recall. Sounds familiar.

17 Q. Did you ever work with any products

18 manufactured by Ruberoid?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you work with gasketing manufactured

21 by Ruberoid?

22 A. In my race cars we used to use stuff by

23 Ruberoid.

24 Q. How about in your jobs?

25 A. I dont recall myself using that.

83

1 Q. What about products manufactured by GAF?

2 A. I remember the building, but not the

3 product.

4 Q. What about products manufactured by

5 Johns-Manville?

6 A. They were on the job all the time.

7 Q. At a job you worked at with the plaintiff?

8 A. Not every job. They were a very big

9 supplier back in the 60s. I think early 70s they

10 were a big supplier.

11 Q. Did you work with gasketing?

12 A. JM. Red and black on it. I remember

13 that.

14 Q. JM gasketing?

15 A. Insulation, too.

16 Q. Gas it quilting and insulation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about pipe covering?

19 A. I dont recall offhand.

20 Q. What percentage of time did you work with

21 gaskets that were pre-made as opposed to gaskets you

22 actually had to cut?

23 A. Maybe we used pre-made 10 percent. Hours

24 is a custom fit.

25 Q. What percentage of your job, and I

84

1 understand you had a myriad of jobs including

2 welding and a bunch of other stuff, what percentage

3 would you say did you actually work with gasketing

4 lets say on a daily basis. Lelss than 5 percent?

5 Something other than that?

6 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

7 A. Depends on the job more than anything

8 else. On average. Gaskets and sealing were

9 probably 70 percent of our jobs.

10 Q. Not all gasketing was

11 asbestos-containing, correct?

12 A. I dont think all of it was. We never

13 used to notice. It was just what you had. This is

14 what you put in. You couldnt tell which was

15 asbestos-containing and which was not. We used

16 asbestos rugs for welding so that we didnt burn up

17 other peoples products or jobs.

18 Q. Who manufactured the rugs?

19 A. I dont recall. I have one at home.

20 Theres no label on it. Even today I dont look at

21 these things as being this has this, this has that.

22 Q. You just used what you were given?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. WILDSTEIN: Nothing further.

25

85

1 (Recess taken)

2

3 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SINGER:

4

5 Q. Good afternoon. Im Steve Singer from

6 Sedgwick, Detert and I represent one of the

7 defendants brought in the suit by Mr. Gerdings

8 estate.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. I have two companies to talk to you about.

11 Earlier today you were talking about a flex

12 connection product you put between a fan and a duct.

13 Do you recall that testimony?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You mentioned that a Foster-Wheeler

16 product was used on that?

17 MS. PLACITELLA: I think you heard

18 incorrectly.

19 Q. Let me rephrase. Do you recall a

20 Foster-Wheele product being used in conjunction with

21 those flexible connections?

22 A. I dont recall.

23 Q. You also mentioned you worked for

24 Foster-Wheeler at some point?

25 A. On the building.

86

1 Q. Where was that building?

2 A. In Morristown.

3 MS. PLACITELLA: The building was a

4 Foster-Wheeler building.

5 A. I thought it said future home of

6 Foster-Wheeler. I didnt work for the company, if

7 that clarifies it.

8 Q. Who were you working for at that time?

9 A. I think I want to say Bonland. I believe

10 it was Bonland Corporation, sheet metal.

11 Q. Were you working with Mr. Gerding?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you recall working with Mr. Gerding at

14 Foster-Wheeler site?

15 A. No.

16 MR. SINGER: Nothing further.

17

18 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ABATEMARCO:

19

20 Q. Good afternoon. Im Christopher

21 Abatemarco. I want to clarify testimony you gave

22 about Frank McBride. You said you worked for Frank

23 McBride in your own personal work history

24 approximately 20 jobs over your 43 years?

25 A. Yes.

87

1 Q. You also testified you could not recall a

2 specific job site where you worked for McBride with

3 Gus. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned when you worked for McBride

6 you made mention that you were working in the shop.

7 Kind of got looked over.

8 A. I worked in the field for the McBride

9 Sheet Metal Company, but the majority of my time I

10 spent in the shop welding.

11 Q. How much time would you have been in the

12 shop?

13 A. 90/10.

14 MR. ABATEMARCO: Nothing further.

15

16 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GILBERT:

17

18 Q. Im Ryan Gilbert. I have some questions

19 for you. Are you okay to continue?

20 A. Please.

21 Q. I want to ask you about Carborundum

22 products. You mentioned earlier that it was a

23 common name in the industry?

24 A. Correct. In fact when you — if they

25 order them you call in and say I need 20 Carborundum

88

1 blades or whatever to differentiate between Sawsall

2 blades or regular tooth blades, whatever.

3 Q. When you refer to it do you refer to it as

4 a type of product like a generic, like Kleenex for a

5 tissue, I need a Carborundum blade?

6 A. Thats what I would do.

7 Q. When you say Carborundum, to your

8 knowledge thats not necessarily a manufacturer, but

9 a type of product?

10 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

11 A. I would say I used it in reference to a

12 blade, not — I never told the company who to order

13 from.

14 Q. So when you were talking about Carborundum

15 do you know for certain whether Carborundum was the

16 manufacturer or just a type of product that was

17 used?

18 A. At times they were Carborundum Company

19 blades and other times they were just Carborundum

20 knock-offs, what you would call.

21 Q. When the blade was on the saw did you have

22 any way of knowing who manufactured the product?

23 A. No, but when it wore out you would take it

24 from the box and there were times when the box said

25 Carborundum.

89

1 Q. Do you have a recollection of ever putting

2 a new blade on a saw while working with Gus?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall which job site that

5 occurred?

6 A. There was the one where we did all the

7 transite pipe. I cannot specify which job it was.

8 I just remember the job, the work involved, not the

9 actual.

10 Q. Do you recall which decade that job was

11 in?

12 A. That was back in the 70s.

13 Q. Do you recall the type of job?

14 A. It was another Bell building.

15 MS. PLACITELLA: Other than the ones we

16 already talked about?

17 A. Im going to say yes.

18 MS. PLACITELLA: There was another

19 building other than the four you spoke about?

20 A. I worked on 50 plus Bell buildings in New

21 Jersey. Unfortunately I cannot differentiate one

22 from the other.

23

24 Q. Do you know if you could differentiate it

25 by county? Do you recall what county it was in?

90

1 A. I cannot recall.

2 Q. Do you know how long the job lasted?

3 A. For me?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Personally I was there for three weeks.

6 The job was quite a bit bigger than that.

7 Q. What was your title on this job?

8 A. Worker.

9 Q. Was Gus a supervisor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall how often he was on that job

12 when you were there for those three weeks?

13 A. While I was there he was there at least

14 four days a week.

15 Q. What was he doing as a supervisor on that

16 job?

17 A. Hands on, I couldnt. The guy couldnt

18 not work. He did the measuring. It was all buried

19 in the ground and he more or less measured it for

20 the angles that we had to cut. It wasnt a straight

21 run.

22 MS. PLACITELLA: What was buried in

23 the ground?

24 A. The transite.

25 Q. Were you personally cutting the pipe?

91

1 A. Me and five, six other people, yes.

2 Q. Do you recall which co-workers were with

3 you on that job?

4 A. No, I can not remember.

5 Q. What specifically, what type of tool did

6 you use to cut the pipe on this job?

7 A. I used a seven and a quarter inch circular

8 saw and a Sawzall.

9 Q. Can you describe what a Sawzall is?

10 A. A reciprocating straight blade saw,

11 handsaw, motorized handsaw.

12 Q. The circular saw, was that —

13 A. Like you would use at home. I burned a

14 bunch of them out.

15 Q. What exactly were you doing with the pipe

16 on this site? What was the application of the pipe?

17 A. They told me to put it in. I dont know.

18 Q. Do you recall what work you were doing on

19 this site besides cutting pipe? Do you recall was

20 this new construction?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What were you constructing?

23 A. Transite pipeline. I have no idea what

24 they were using it for.

25 Q. So for your three weeks did you do

92

1 anything but install pipe?

2 A. I unloaded some trucks. Really my job was

3 just to get the transite in place and then a couple

4 of guys would follow up and glue it together.

5 Q. Were there any other trades with you on

6 this site?

7 A. On the site?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Full compliment. This was a complete job.

10 Carpenters, laborers, electricians, plumbers. They

11 were inside the building all those people Im

12 talking about except for the laborers. They were

13 helping us with the digging of the holes. They were

14 operating engineers because they ran the backhoes

15 and inside they did regular duct work. I didnt get

16 on that part of the job.

17 Q. Were the pipefitters installing any of

18 this transite pipe?

19 A. It wasnt a specific crew, if thats what

20 you are getting at.

21 Q. Do you know who the general contractor

22 was?

23 A. Im sorry. I cant recall.

24 Q. Thats all right. Had to ask.

25 A. I never cared. For me it was the paycheck

93

1 at the end of the week. I didnt care who signed

2 it.

3 Q. I understand. On this site for the three

4 weeks you were there were there any buildings

5 erected in place at that time?

6 A. Buildings erected?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. There was a building going up alongside —

9 we were putting the pipe alongside the building.

10 The building was — the structural building was

11 there.

12 Q. Do you recall having worked in the field

13 cutting this pipe on any other job site with Gus?

14 A. With Gus?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No. I think that would have been the big

17 job that I did with him with transite.

18 Q. Did you ever work in the shop with Gus?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During what time frame?

21 A. Same. I was an apprentice for Capital and

22 Folander and then became a mechanic for Folander and

23 worked for them in that 60 to 63, 63 to 67,

24 whatever.

25 Q. When you were an apprentice at Capital,

94

1 what was Gus title?

2 A. Foreman. At capital?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. He was the foreman or a foreman.

5 Q. Did he work —

6 A. And sketcher, come to think of it.

7 Q. Do you recall him ever doing any work in

8 the shop?

9 A. He would come back to help me lay out the

10 black iron fittings and get them tacked up and

11 welded.

12 Q. You said you used a Carborundum blade to

13 cut the pipe. Did you use it for any other purpose?

14 MS. PLACITELA: Use what?

15 Q. The Carborundum blades you were talking

16 about. Did you use them for any purpose other than

17 to cut the transite pipe?

18 A. Theres a saw, cut-off saw in the shop.

19 Mostly in the shop, but they also send them out to

20 the field and they are on almost every job. Theres

21 about a 14 to 16-inch wheel and you cut angle iron

22 and metal with these Carborundum blades.

23 Q. The cut-off saw you cut iron?

24 A. Oh, yes. It is a great cutter.

25 Q. Did you ever install a new blade on the

95

1 cut-off saw?

2 A. Yes. They wear down.

3 Q. Can you describe the blade that goes on

4 the cut-off saw?

5 A. We were using I think 14-inch by about

6 3/16th wide circular. No teeth.

7 Q. What color were these blades?

8 A. Brownish, gritty brown.

9 Q. Was it the same throughout the blade? Was

10 it a gritty texture throughout the blade?

11 A. I would say yes. I know everybody here is

12 interested in this. It is a round blade, cardboard

13 decal, whatever you want to call it, and it would

14 come up to about here on the 14 inche. we had them

15 12, 14. They had 7.

16 As you wore down there was just that

17 short space before the decal. When you got down

18 within an inch or so you took the thing and threw it

19 away.

20 Q. Do you recall any of the writing on the

21 decal?

22 A. I dont remember.

23 Q. Did you ever see the boxes for these

24 cut-off saw blades?

25 A. Yes, I did and no, I couldnt describe it.

96

1 Q. Do you recall any writing on the box?

2 A. I dont recall.

3 Q. Do you know who the manufacturer of these

4 cut-off saw blades was?

5 A. Thats who would have been on the box. I

6 cant remember.

7 Q. Did anyone ever tell you who the

8 manufacturer of that blade was?

9 A. I never asked.

10 Q. Did you ever see any product literature

11 for that blade?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Do you know what that product was composed

14 of?

15 A. At the time, no.

16 Q. Do you know what that product was composed

17 of?

18 A. Even today I dont know. I dont care.

19 Q. Do you have any factual basis that product

20 was composed of asbestos?

21 A. Any factual basis?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. No idea.

24 Q. Did Gus use the cut-off saw at Capital?

25 A. Capital?

97

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. We used them in all the shops. That was a

3 piece of our standard equipment.

4 Q. The only two shops I believe you worked at

5 with Gus, the only two places would be Capital and

6 Folander. Is that correct?

7 A. From my recollection, yes.

8 Q. Did you ever see Gus using this cut-off

9 saw while — was there a cut-off saw at Folander?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you ever see Gus use it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. During what time frame?

14 A. Hours or days?

15 Q. No. Which decade would it have been?

16 A. That would have been in the earlier part.

17 The 63 to 67 part when we did the most work.

18 Q. You said you used the cut-off saw. Was it

19 any different than the cut-off saw used at Capital

20 than the one you used at Folander?

21 A. Not to my recollection.

22 Q. Other than this 63 to 67 period did you

23 ever see Gus use the cut-off saw at Folander?

24 A. Other than that I dont know how to answer

25 that. I really have no answer for that. Im sorry.

98

1 Q. At this is time you dont recall?

2 A. When you work, you dont watch other

3 people. You have to watch your own hands and job

4 and there are times when I would ask him to do me a

5 favor, even as my boss, and go cut this or cut that.

6 I didnt go watch what he did.

7 There were times I would be standing

8 next to him, he would use a tool. It could have

9 been a drill, could have been anything.

10 We used so many different tools in

11 our trade that you dont sit there and try to

12 remember each one. These are tools we used day in

13 and day out like your computer. You use it day in

14 and day out. If I asked you what her computer

15 looked like, you would say yes, she has a computer.

16 It is not something I took special

17 notice of. I do know what he did use. I know he

18 couldnt have cut through this stuff we were using

19 and making — he had to use a particular item which

20 would have been, as I said, like a cut-off saw for

21 the angle iron.

22 We had other angle iron cutters, but

23 at certain times, depending on what part of the

24 equipment was on the job, thats what you used. I

25 tried to verify what we were both trying to help

99

1 each other get to.

2 Q. Gus was a supervisor the whole time at

3 Folander, correct?

4 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. Thats a

5 mischaracterization.

6 A. He was always my supervisor.

7 Q. Was Gus primarily out in the field

8 after —

9 A. His title for most of the time I worked

10 with him was outside supervisor or road supervisor.

11 Q. Would that title have applied as well from

12 63 to 67?

13 A. Yes. Nothing to do with what type of job

14 he did. I was called an apprentice but I was

15 actually doing mechanical l work. Titles werent

16 specific.

17 Q. We were talking before about cutting

18 transite pipe.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just so we are clear, where that process

21 occurred out on the job at Bell Labs, you cant

22 recall which location?

23 A. There was a Bell building, the

24 laboratories, they had three different laboratories

25 that I worked at. That I can tell you. Murray Hill

100

1 was one, Whippany was the other and Oak Tree, New

2 Jersey was the third. Why I remember them, I dont

3 know.

4 MS. PLACITELLA: Wait a second. You

5 never talked about Murray Hill.

6 A. I worked for Bonland.

7 MS. PLACITELLA: When you worked at

8 Murray Hill you didnt work with Gus at that job?

9 A. No. Thats what makes it so confusing.

10 Didnt mean to derail you.

11

12 Q. Not a problem.

13 A. What was that last question?

14 Q. You still dont recall the town where the

15 Bell building was that you worked on with Gus with

16 the transite pipe. Is that correct?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Did you use both a Sawsall and a circular

19 saw to cut the pipe at that site?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, the Sawall blade, was that a metal

22 product?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of the

25 Sawzall blade?

101

1 A. That I can tell you. Milwaukee. I have

2 some at home.

3 Q. The seven and a quarter inch circular saw,

4 do you know the manufacturer of that?

5 A. I cant tell you.

6 Q. Let me back track for a second.

7 A. May I guess at it?

8 MR. GILBERT: Since the witness has

9 drawn a picture, I guess we will mark that as D-1?

10 MS. PLACITELLA: On a break he will

11 redo it on a piece of paper that we can have marked

12 and we will put it with the transcript. Lets keep

13 moving.

14 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of the seven

15 and a quarter inch circular saw you used at this

16 site? Im going to limit all my questions to this

17 Bell lab site you worked at with Gus and the

18 transite pipe so I dont have to keep repeating it.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of that

21 circular saw?

22 A. I dont recall. It was a Black and

23 Decker, but I dont remember.

24 MS. PLACITELLA: You said you didnt

25 remember?

102

1 A. I wouldnt swear to it.

2 MS. PLACITELLA: You are not

3 positive?

4 Q. Dont guess. If thats your best

5 recollection, thats fine. If you are not certain,

6 let me know.

7 A. Im not certain. Most of Folanders

8 equipment was either Milwaukee or Black and Decker,

9 but I wouldnt want to swear to something like that

10 because I cant be positive which it was.

11 Q. What was the diameter of the blades used

12 on the circular saw?

13 A. On the circular saw it was seven and a

14 quarter and on the cut-offs it was 14.

15 Q. Am I correct did you use a cut-off saw in

16 the field?

17 A. At times we did, yes. On the small —

18 they had runners going out. I dont know what they

19 were for, but they had runners.

20 Q. On this particular site Im referring to

21 about Bell Labs, do you recall using cut-off saws at

22 this site?

23 A. I didnt personally use the cut-off saw.

24 Q. Do you know if Gus used a cut-off saw?

25 A. I dont know.

103

1 Q. Going back to the circular saw, you said

2 it was seven and a quarter inch diameter?

3 A. Circumference.

4 Q. What color was it?

5 A. The blade or decal?

6 Q. Blade.

7 A. Dirty gray, if thats a color.

8 Q. Could you describe for me the texture?

9 A. Yes. A gritty sandpaper on the sides.

10 Q. Was the color and texture homogienous

11 throughout the blade?

12 MS. PLACITELLA: The same.

13 A. Thank you.

14 Q. Was it consistant throughout?

15 A. Yes, except I dont know what was under

16 the decal. They all have the decal. I dont know.

17 Q. How was this affixed to the saw?

18 A. With a bolt.

19 Q. How many bolt holes were there?

20 A. One.

21 Q. Do you recall any of the writing on the

22 decal?

23 A. I dont remember.

24 Q. Did you change the blades for this

25 circular saw?

104

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember the boxes?

3 A. I was just handed a pack of them.

4 Q. How many came in a pack?

5 A. When I say a pack of them, they were tied

6 together with string. As somebody said, you are

7 going to need ten of these.

8 Q. Do you recall how many blades were in the

9 bundle?

10 A. Six.

11 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of the blades

12 you used at this site?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what those

15 blades were composed of?

16 A. I never asked. Wasnt my job.

17 Q. On average how long would the blade last

18 before you had to change it?

19 A. On the bigger transite like the 3-foot,

20 how long?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Maybe you would get a full cut

23 circumference — maybe you would get 10-foot of cut

24 out of it.

25 Q. What were the range in pipe, circumference

105

1 you cut transite pipe on this site?

2 A. From two foot to the biggest that I worked

3 on was probably 4 foot.

4 Q. That was the circumference around?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was the majority of the pipe 2 foot or 4

7 foot?

8 A. Four.

9 Q. Roughly how many pipes would you be able

10 to cut with one blade, if you can recall?

11 A. I cant recall.

12 Q. Do you know if it would be ten, more than

13 ten?

14 A. I honestly cannot recall.

15 Q. Did you cut any other material at this

16 site?

17 A. Band iron. That is all I did.

18 Q. Which tool did you use to cut the band

19 iron?

20 A. My hand snips.

21 Q. Am I correct the circular saw was only

22 used to cut the transite pipe at this site?

23 A. Thats all I did.

24 Q. Did you see Gus cutting anything else at

25 this site?

106

1 A. Not while he was with me.

2 Q. Do you recall anyone cutting any other

3 materials in Gus presence at this site?

4 A. You mean like a carpenter cutting 2 by 4s

5 and stuff?

6 Q. Just with respect to the circular saw at

7 this site. The saw you used that belonged to

8 Folander.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did anyone else use this Folander saw in

11 Gus presence to cut materials other than the pipe?

12 A. No.

13 MS. PLACITELLA: Did other people cut

14 the pipe in Gus presence at that site?

15 MR. GILBERT: That wasnt my

16 question.

17 MS. PLACITELLA: I know. Im asking the

18 question to be clear.

19 MR. GILBERT: Can you wait until Im

20 finished and you can ask? It is confusing.

21 A. Im totally confused. You dont use the

22 Carborundum blade that you were using on transite on

23 something else. In other words, you dont cut wood

24 with a Carborundum blade. You use a regular

25 circular saw blade for something like that. If you

107

1 needed a proper — Im lost in the question, if you

2 could either rephrase it.

3 Q. What I want to know is the saw. You used

4 a seven and a quarter inch circular saw.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Did you, Gus or any other employee from

7 Folander use the saw for any purpose on this site

8 other than —

9 A. Without changing the blade?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. No. I didnt see that.

12 Q. Did you see anyone using that saw for any

13 other purpose at this site?

14 A. While I was there, no. I didnt see

15 anybody.

16 Q. I wasnt trying to confuse you.

17 A. I want to give you the right answer. I

18 didnt understand what you are getting at.

19 Q. I dont want to cut you off.

20 A. Thats all right.

21 Q. You said the Carborundum blade — am I

22 correct when you say the word Carborundum, you use

23 that generically and you are not certain of the

24 manufacturer of the blade, but just as a certain

25 type of blade?

108

1 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

2 Mischaracterization.

3 A. Im saying going to say yes.

4 Q. What?

5 A. Thats what we call them is Carborundum

6 blades.

7 Q. When you say Carborundum do you have any

8 knowledge as to who manufactured the blade that was

9 used on this circular saw?

10 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

11 A. In other words did I look at the label or

12 whatever?

13 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. He

14 doesnt understand the question.

15 Q. You said there was a decal on the blade?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you have any knowledge what the writing

18 said?

19 A. Every blade that comes through had some

20 kind of paper, like a record. Thats the way I can

21 describe it. Looks like a record. It has a decal

22 and it usually is a promo for whatever company made

23 it.

24 Q. Do you recall any of the writing on the

25 decal?

109

1 A. Never bothered to read them. Wasnt part

2 of my job, like you cant tell me what kind of ink

3 is in that pen. You use it everyday, but it is just

4 ink.

5 Q. You talked about the shop. Is that a

6 moveable item?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is there a bolt hole on that to affix the

9 blade to the machine?

10 A. Through the blade.

11 Q. How is that blade affixed to the machine?

12 A. It is the same thing. It is bigger and

13 has a very large shoulder support that goes over the

14 shaft of the cut-off saw and then you put the bolt

15 in it. Theres one on each side to keep the blade

16 in, you know.

17 Q. Im not sure if I asked you. Do you know

18 the manufacturer of the cut-off saw you used?

19 MS. PLACITELLA: Already asked. You

20 can ask again.

21 A. He asked me about the seven and a quarter.

22 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of the

23 cut-off saw?

24 A. No. Standard commercial item.

25 Q. Do you happen to know the manufacturer of

110

1 the cut-off saw you used at Folander?

2 A. Sorry, I dont .

3 Q. That too is a moveable saw?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you use the Carborundum type blade,

6 Ill call it?

7 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

8 Q. Did you use that blade for any other

9 purpose in Gus presence other than what we

10 discussed today.

11 MS. PLACITELLA: At any time?

12 Q. At any time you worked with Gus.

13 A. No. Two separate items. You have cut-off

14 for steel. They cut pipe with them and things like

15 that. Then they had the transite pipe. Whether it

16 was a different grid or what, I dont know. Again,

17 I didnt take notice.

18 Q. So far today we have discussed, I believe,

19 you said you used it to cut that type of blade on

20 the cut-off saw. When you used it in the shop, the

21 cut-off saw, what particular product were you

22 cutting?

23 A. Duct Mate.

24 Q. At Capital?

25 A. Capital?

111

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Inlay angle iron when you need a clean

3 finish.

4 Q. And at Folander?

5 A. In the shop?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Again, same thing. Welding department

8 would cut angle iron or round rod. Whenever you

9 needed a clean finish you used a Carborundum blade,

10 not the angle iron cut which left a hook on the end.

11 Q. Did you use the circular saw in the shop

12 or would you just use the cut-off saw?

13 A. No. Circular saw was not used in the

14 shop.

15 Q. Did you ever see Gus cut angle iron at

16 Capital?

17 A. Yes. Theres an iron working machine that

18 they use and to make fireproofing frames he would

19 use the iron worker.

20 Q. How many cut-off saws were there at

21 Capital, in the shop?

22 A. How many?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. In the storeroom?

25 Q. On the shop floor.

112

1 A. One.

2 Q. How many cut-off saws were there on the

3 shop floor at Folander?

4 A. Just one.

5 Q. Was that cut-off saw used for anything

6 other than cutting iron?

7 A. Not in my presence.

8 Q. Would it be the same at both Folander and

9 Capital?

10 A. Usually, yes.

11 Q. Did you change blades for different

12 applications?

13 MS. PLACITELLA: Different

14 applications? Objection, what do you mean by

15 applications?

16 Q. Would you ever change blades or cut angle

17 iron with this cut-off saw?

18 A. Yes. A chop saw is a cut-off saw. Very

19 good. You used this cut-off saw whenever you needed

20 to cut the angle.

21 If you needed a clean cut for a weld

22 where it would butt up, yes, you would use a chop

23 saw or cut-off saw.

24 Q. If you werent concerned with a clean cut,

25 which tool would you use?

113

1 A. Iron worker — angle iron cutter, a

2 V-blade.

3 Q. Do you know the manufacturer of the

4 V-blade on the angle iron cutter?

5 A. No idea. I know it is written on there

6 somewhere. Never looked.

7 Q. What type of tool is an angle iron cutter?

8 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.

9 Q. Can you describe what the appearances is?

10 A. I can definitely give you a description.

11 Construction plank with a metal case with an

12 inverted V in it on one side which is the anvil side

13 and then on the other side theres an arrow shaped V

14 with an iron puller. Thats the land iron worker.

15 Then the motorized iron worker is

16 6-foot high unit that has the same anvil and blade

17 and also underneath has holes for round rod, square

18 rod and flat, like heavy, heavy band iron you would

19 stick in and cut it off.

20 Q. What type of application would you need

21 the clean cut versus the regular standard angle iron

22 cut?

23 A. What application? When you are welding

24 angle iron or iron, any kind of iron, it is

25 preferable to have a square cut. These iron workers

114

1 that I described, they are very loosely — the V is

2 very lose for a very variety of thicknesses. When

3 the blade comes down it pulls the angle to the side

4 and you dont get a true 90. With the Carborundum

5 blade you bring it down and it eats it right up and

6 gives you a square 90 cut.

7 Q. On what appliations or what jobs are you

8 using the cut-off saw versus the angle iron cut?

9 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

10 word application.

11 Q. You did use the angle iron cutter in the

12 shop, correct?

13 A. It gets used a lot more than the

14 Carborundum.

15 Q. What percentage would you say it was used

16 for the angle iron cut versus the cut-off saw?

17 A. Seventy.

18 MR. GILBERT: Nothing further.

19

20 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SUSS:

21

22 Q. Im Ron Suss. I represent some of the

23 defendants in the case. I would like to begin my

24 questioning this afternoon by following up on some

25 of the information you just provided to Mr. Gilbert

115

1 in the answers you gave to him.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. I would like to focus your attention how

4 to that Bell building site you and Mr. Gilbert

5 talked about where you have indicated to us was the

6 only location where you can recall working with

7 Mr. Gerding and using transite pipe?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You indicated to us you recall as best you

10 can working on that site with Mr. Gerding back in

11 the 70s?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you be a little more specific for me

14 in terms of telling me when in the 70s that might

15 have been, whether it was —

16 A. I wish I could help you, but I dont

17 remember.

18 Q. Let me see if I can prompt you only

19 because of an answer you gave earlier.

20 You were able to give us a time

21 period based upon the motor vehicle you recalled

22 driving at the time. Do you happen to remember what

23 your car or truck was that you may have used to get

24 to that work site for that period of time?

25 A. I was running through — Ive had a lot of

116

1 vehicles. Sorry, I cannot place it.

2 MS. PLACITELLA: Was it before the

3 other sites you talked about, the other Bell

4 buildings?

5 MR. SUSS: I would appreciate it if

6 you would let me do my questioning. I dont need

7 any assistance. Thank you.

8 Q. You indicated at that site one of your

9 duties was unloading trucks. At least thats what I

10 noted. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. The transite will to come off the

12 truck.

13 Q. Did you unload the transite from the

14 truck?

15 A. With the crane operators.

16 Q. Do you recall who delivered the transite

17 to that work site?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Lets talk specifically about that

20 transite at that site at that time.

21 In response to an earlier question a

22 number of hours ago you indicated transite pipe to

23 your recollection came mainly in 10-foot lengths.

24 Do you remember the length of the transite pipe you

25 unloaded and installed at that work site?

117

1 A. The length of the transite pipe, we burn

2 it off in 10-foot lengths, and what was the other

3 part?

4 Q. I think you answered the question. I

5 wanted to know what the length of the pipe was you

6 recalled unloading and installing at that location.

7 It was 10-foot?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe for me the color of that

10 pipe?

11 A. Grayish white. I know when you cut into

12 it it was real white.

13 Q. Can you tell me what the ends of this pipe

14 looked like? Did it have an edge to it? Did it

15 have any kind of flange?

16 A. No. It was raw pipe.

17 Q. Raw pipe?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does that mean it just had a smooth

20 surface on each side of the 10-foot piece? No

21 ridges, no edge, no bell?

22 A. No ridge no edge, no bell.

23 Q. What was the texture of this pipe as best

24 you recall?

25 A. More of a — I can feel it today when you

118

1 ran your hand over it, it was like it had very small

2 veins in it. Like a tweed when you ran your hand

3 over it.

4 Q. It didnt feel smooth. Is that correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Were you responsible for digging the hole

7 in the ground in which the pipe had to be placed?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Can you tell me how deep that hole was

10 into which the pipe was placed?

11 A. It was 6-foot to the bottom of the hole.

12 Q. How did the pipe get from being on the

13 truck to ultimately into the hole into which it was

14 placed? Were you involved in that aspect?

15 A. Yesl. We used ramping. I can only talk

16 about my part of the job, but I unloaded mine with 4

17 by 4s which we applied a ramp and blocking and a

18 come along to keep it.

19 This was heavy stuff from flying down

20 the ramp. We put these like cargo straps around it,

21 affixed it to the trailer and brought it down the

22 ramp. Then we used construction planks to get it

23 over to the edge of the hole and luckily we had the

24 operating engineer, we had cargo straps.

25 Q. You told us that in addition to Mr.

119

1 Gerding being on that job you recalled other men who

2 worked with you on that job. Do you remember the

3 names of any of the other men who worked with you in

4 installing that transite pipe on that job?

5 A. That worked with me?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. I cant name a specific person. That

8 sounds weird.

9 MS. PLACITELLA: If you remember, let

10 us know.

11 Q. You indicated that there were

12 circumstances in which the pipe on that job had to

13 be cut. Is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Was the cutting of the pipe done before it

16 was placed into the hole in the ground?

17 A. Both.

18 Q. You did some cutting up on top and some in

19 the hole?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For that cutting process you indicated I

22 believe, and correct me, you used the Sawsall. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. The Sawsall was mainly to trim. The

25 circular saw was to do the big work.

120

1 Q. Would the circular saw be used both on the

2 ground and in the hole?

3 A. At times.

4 Q. How long would it take to make a cut

5 through the pipe?

6 A. Through the pipe?

7 Q. If you were cutting it, how long would it

8 take you to make the cut?

9 A. Which size? The 2 foot or the 4?

10 Q. I appreciate your asking that question.

11 How long would it take to cut the 2 foot diameter

12 pipe?

13 A. About 15 minutes.

14 Q. And how about the 4 foot?

15 A. You cant multiply it. Close to half an

16 hour.

17 Q. Would that be the only thing that you

18 would have to do to the pipe in order to have it

19 prepared for the final installation, that is to say

20 you would be cutting it to fit a particular spot

21 within the hole in the ground?

22 A. It wasnt just a straight run. What we

23 had to do was at times miter it. Thats why when

24 you say how long would it take, depends if lunchtime

25 was coming or back then I ate lunch. When we cut it

121

1 you couldnt always cut it because you are working

2 on a larger area. You couldnt always cut it clean

3 like I had a big saw or blade to come down.

4 You would cut it as best you can and

5 then you would have to cut the other side and

6 sometimes you would have to put the thing in the

7 hole, run another piece of transite up against it to

8 use as a template and measure. This is where Gus

9 was my partner. He would measure and then go up and

10 lay it out so that I could go off and cut it.

11 When you asked me who worked there,

12 there were 50 guys on this job. Gus was basically,

13 although he was my supervisor, he was supervising me

14 and thats why it is very hard to just come up

15 with — I would tell you 20 names you wouldnt know.

16 Q. On this particular job this was a job

17 where you were employed by Folander?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Gus was also a supervisor for Folander on

20 that job?

21 A. Yes, supervisor slash sketcher.

22 Q. Were there other Folander employees who

23 you remember working with you on the installation of

24 this pipe on that job?

25 A. There were other people there. I cant

122

1 come up with the names.

2 Q. I appreciate that.

3 A. Are you able to tell me or estimate the

4 number of linear feet of pipe that was involved in

5 that job?

6 A. No idea.

7 Q. You have cant estimate for me. Is that

8 fair?

9 A. Very fair to say.

10 Q. Was this one run of pipe that started at a

11 spot and was to end at a spot? Thats to say with

12 the —

13 A. I wasnt there for the whole job so my

14 part was to be done was X to X.

15 Q. You indicated, and correct me if Im

16 wrong, part of this job included the pieces were

17 glued together. Is that how the pieces of pipe were

18 joined? How were they joined?

19 A. We used band iron clips that were drilled

20 a hole in each side and spot band iron clips around

21 the sections, depending on the size of the pipe and

22 then we drilled a hole and put a screw in each one

23 and used the sealant around the lip of it the edge.

24 Q. In addition to having to cut some of the

25 pieces to size you also would drill a hole in the

123

1 end of each piece of pipe in order to get them to

2 fit together. Is that correct, you would drill

3 holes and put screws in and band them?

4 A. The band iron were clips. Lets say the

5 pieces came together, you would overlay a strap and

6 come in this way, hold them together until you could

7 get everything.

8 Q. That didnt require you to drill into the

9 pipe itself?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You would drill into the pipe itself?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you use to do that?

14 A. Regular drill bit. We ate up drill bits

15 like they went out of style.

16 Q. Then you used another product that you

17 talked about to get the pieces to adhere to each

18 another as additional sealant? Is that correct?

19 A. I believe you are correct.

20 Q. Tell me what else you did to get the two

21 pieces of pipe to fit together in addition to using

22 the band iron clips? How would you finish that job

23 and know you would be ready to move on to the next

24 section?

25 A. I only did the cutting and the connecting.

124

1 There were two other gentlemen that followed up with

2 the glue and stuff like that.

3 Q. You didnt do the glue part?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Gerding did the

6 glue part?

7 A. He was returning back and forth. I hope

8 he I was doing something.

9 Q. What kind of product was being used? Did

10 you take note of what the co-workers were using?

11 A. No?

12 Q. Do you know what kind of container the

13 material came in?

14 A. All I know is they came in gallon cans of

15 it.

16 Q. Did you take note of what that material

17 looked like? Was it a wet product, a dry product?

18 A. It was a whitish kind of glue like spackle

19 and they also had a gauze they put around.. Im

20 glad Im not doing that because they were — that

21 was all over.

22 Q. Did you ever note what they used to apply

23 that glue like product that you described?

24 A. Paint brushes and trowels. Paint type

25 brushes. I dont know exactly what they were.

125

1 Q. Do you know what the pipe product was made

2 of?

3 A. Transite?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Transite.

6 Q. Do you know whether that pipe product

7 contained asbestos?

8 A. I never asked. It wasnt my job.

9 Q. The answer is you dont know whether it

10 contained asbestos. Is that correct?

11 A. I never took it to a chemist to have it

12 analyzed. It was just a material.

13 Q. It is really a yes or no question.

14 A. Sorry. No.

15 Q. Do you know who manufactured that transite

16 pipe that we have been talking about that you

17 installed at the Bell building at that time back in

18 the 70s?

19 A. I dont know.

20 Q. You dont recall seeing any marks on that

21 particular —

22 A. Not on my stuff.

23 Q. Earlier today Ms. Placitella mentioned the

24 name CertainTeed transite pipe. You talked to her

25 about that for a few moments.

126

1 Do you have a recollection of ever

2 working with Mr. Gerding at any site where you and

3 he would have worked with a CertainTeed transite

4 pipe?

5 A. Could you repeat that?

6 Q. As best I understand your testimony so far

7 you worked with Mr. Gerding at one site where you

8 and he both worked with transite pipe.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We have talked about that?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. You indicated you dont know whose

13 transite pipe that was.

14 A. I didnt know that there was more than one

15 manufacturer.

16 Q. Did you ever observe at any job, whether

17 you worked with Mr. Gerding or not, a Johns-Manville

18 transite pipe?

19 A. That would have been the old black and

20 orange JM.

21 Q. We are going to change direction because I

22 have to ask you about other products you talked

23 about.

24 A. Fine.

25 Q. You talked a little bit earlier today

127

1 about a CertainTeed product called a mastic cement

2 and I believe a roofing cement. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that a product you recall working on

5 jobs with Mr. Gerding?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Lets talk a little bit about that. How

8 did that product come packaged at the time you and

9 Mr. Gerding would have been using it?

10 A. Gallon cans. There was almost a common

11 denominator among these things.

12 Q. The cans that you were talking about, what

13 were the cans made of? Metal, plastic, some other?

14 A. Metal.

15 Q. How would you know that it was a

16 CertainTeed product? Was there some labeling or

17 writing on the can that told you who the

18 manufacturer was?

19 A. As I told you before, I did not read . .

20 Not that Im incapable, but I didnt care what the

21 labeling was. However, there was like the JM, like

22 the Black Cat, just certain things that would catch

23 your eye and stick in your mind a little. I dont

24 know. I hope that answers it.

25 Q. I appreciate the nature and quality of

128

1 your response, but one of the things I have to do is

2 try to get some more specifics.

3 A. All right.

4 Q. Do you recall seeing the name CertainTeed

5 on the can so that you would then know it was

6 actually a CertainTeed product?

7 A. I dont recall.

8 Q. This particular product, what did it look

9 like when you opened the container and looked

10 inside? What did the material itself look like?

11 What was the color?

12 A. Some was silver. Most of it was black and

13 it had a tar like quality. Texture would have been

14 like peanut butter.

15 Q. What would you use to apply it?

16 A. At times a piece of wood. We also were

17 supplied with like spatulas, being sheet metal

18 workers, that was always around. We would make long

19 pieces with a handle where you could use it.

20 Q. What would be the purpose of applying the

21 product? Why would you be applying it?

22 A. For waterproofing.

23 Q. Where would you be applying it?

24 A. The county?

25 Q. No. When you took it out of the can you

129

1 put it someplace. What would it be applied to?

2 A. Duct work, roofing.

3 Q. When you say duct work, where on the duct

4 work would you apply it?

5 A. Some of the products you were talking

6 about we used with flashing to put a metal under

7 base. Put this over it with the membrane. We did

8 have trowels. I cant say we didnt have trowels.

9 Why waste a good tool. You had to throw them away

10 after you used this stuff.

11 Q. What Im interest in knowing is whether or

12 not you have a specific recollection of using a

13 CertainTeed roofing cement on a job where you worked

14 with Mr. Gerding?

15 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You can

16 answer, if you can.

17 A. No, Im afraid not unless it had a label,

18 you know, like Goodyear Tire or whatever.

19 Q. Is it correct you dont have a

20 recollection of such a label as you sit here today?

21 Is that correct?

22 A. That would be an assumption.

23 Q. Fair enough. Lets move on to another

24 product.

25 A. Give me one second. Go ahead.

130

1 Q. Let me ask about another product Ms.

2 Placitella mentioned when she was talking to you and

3 that is Benjamin Foster sealants. Did you use

4 Benjamin Foster sealants during the course of your

5 career?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have a recollection of using those

8 sealants on jobs where you worked with Mr. Gerding?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell me what you used those

11 sealants for?

12 A. We used the Benjamin Foster sealant mainly

13 to seal the seams of the duct work more for

14 condensation and stop loss of air flow.

15 Q. Where other duct work would the sealant be

16 applied?

17 A. It could be in the Pittsburgh. You know

18 what a asbestos bearing is?

19 Q. I was going to ask you what that is. I

20 dont.

21 A. It is very hard when you say where did you

22 use this. It is very hard to explain to you being

23 the terminology doesnt equate to regular

24 conversations. Im not trying to make fun of the

25 situation.

131

1 Q. Im sure you are not.

2 A. There are times we painted it on, times we

3 fit it on with a little trowel. I dont know what

4 you are looking for.

5 Q. Maybe I can ask the question in a

6 different way.

7 A. Please.

8 Q. I know very little about sheet metal work.

9 A. I cant describe it so we are in great

10 shape.

11 Q. Lets see if we can do it this way. Would

12 the material be placed on the seam between two

13 pieces of duc t work in order to make a seal?

14 A. Okay. Thats one use.

15 Q. Are you able to describe for me other

16 uses?

17 A. We used it in Pittsburgh.

18 Q. Can you tell me what that is?

19 A. When you make a piece of duct work it is a

20 four sided piece of duct and it comes around and

21 then theres an edge that comes in and it gets

22 driven in and hammered over. That seam is called a

23 Pittsburgh. Why, I have no idea. Never asked.

24 MS. PLACITELLA: Because it looks

25 like a P.

132

1 Q. Some of the sealants would go to seal that

2 edge where the pieces would fit together which is

3 termed a Pittsburgh?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. This Benjamin Foster sealant, how did that

6 come packaged? What kind of container did it come

7 in?

8 A. Again, gallon cans.

9 Q. What would you use to apply that product

10 to the duct work?

11 A. Mostly paint brushes. You might use a

12 stick or something in a pinch.

13 Q. Was it a wet product then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What color was it?

16 A. Gray.

17 Q. After it was —

18 A. They make other colors?

19 Q. Unfortunately I dont get to answer

20 questions, Im just going to ask the. I believe you

21 have given us your best recollection, which is all

22 we can ask for. I appreciate it.

23 After the sealant was applied to the

24 duct work did anything else have to be done to the

25 sealant?

133

1 A. Not to my knowledge.

2 Q. In response to an earlier question you

3 indicated the sealant, Benjamin Foster sealant was

4 used in the duct connections which I believe we have

5 been talk talking about, but you also used the

6 phrase box locks?

7 A. Another type of connection.

8 Q. Was that another type of term thats used

9 to describe a connection between two pieces of duct

10 work?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you able to tell me when the first

13 time you recall using a Benjamin Foster sealant when

14 you worked with Mr. Gerding?

15 A. No. Sorry, I dont recall.

16 Q. Are you able to tell me the last time you

17 used a Benjamin Foster sealant when you worked with

18 Mr. Gerding?

19 A. Sorry, I dont recall.

20 Q. Is the Benjamin Foster sealant a product,

21 you whether or not you were working with Mr. Gerding

22 from the time you began as a sheet metal worker?

23 A. Off and on yes. Good product.

24 Q. How did you know it was a Benjamin Foster

25 product? Was their marking on the can?

134

1 A. It said Benjamin Foster. White can, blue

2 lettering.

3 Q. Go ahead.

4 A. Some of these things, you can picture

5 them.

6 Q. Do you know whether or not the Benjamin

7 Foster sealants contained asbestos?

8 A. No. I still dont.

9 Q. Finally, lets talk a little bit about

10 another product you talked about here today which is

11 the Black Cat product.

12 A. I wore that for years.

13 Q. You say you wore it for years. Tell me

14 what you mean by that.

15 A. It is a very sticky, sticky product. It

16 seems if you are on the roof, if you are applying it

17 over there, Ill go home with it. It just seems to

18 get on everything. A very good sealant.

19 Q. Is that a product that was used for

20 application by you solely as a roofing product?

21 A. Yes. For me it was a roofing product.

22 Q. Is that a product you recall using on jobs

23 that both you and Mr. Gerding worked on during the

24 course of the period you worked together?

25 A. Yes.

135

1 Q. How did this product come packaged? In a

2 can?

3 A. Gallons. The bosses were pretty

4 consistent.

5 Q. Was this a metal can?

6 A. Yes. It did come in a 5 gallon. The 5

7 gallons were more popular. One gallon was mine.

8 Q. Do you have a recollection of any specific

9 work site where you use the Black Cat product?

10 A. I did the Luberplate. I did a job at

11 Luberplate Down Neck, Newark specifically with that.

12 Tha was one of the first times that was in there, in

13 the early 60s.

14 Q. Was that a job you worked on with Mr.

15 Gerding?

16 A. No. I dont believe Gus was on that job.

17 Q. Do you have a specific recollection of any

18 job site where you used the Black Cat product where

19 you did work with Mr. Gerding?

20 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You can

21 answer.

22 A. I would say the bomb shelter job in Newark

23 where we penetrated some of the roof. That was one

24 job that I know Gus and I worked on together.

25 Q. I see.

136

1 A. Also, the wall we had to come out this way

2 also.

3 Q. This Black Cat product, what was the

4 color?

5 A. Black.

6 Q. There you go.

7 A. It may come in other colors.

8 Q. How did you apply that product when you

9 used it?

10 A. Tha was done with a trowel and a flat

11 piece of metal.

12 Q. Was this also a wet product?

13 A. Tar like. Loose. Peanut butter

14 consistency. Most of your roofing dabs are of that

15 type.

16 Q. After you would apply this product to the

17 roof would you have to do anything else to the

18 product after it was applied?

19 A. It wasnt a one step item. You had to use

20 membrane. You would put a layer down, then bush

21 membrane into it and then go over it again to keep

22 it from cracking.

23 Q. Was it then basically a three step product

24 where you would apply the material putting on and

25 then put another coat?

137

1 A. I would do it at least three steps where

2 other roofers would be working.

3 Q. Would you be putting the product —

4 A. Right on the flashing.

5 Q. After you finished the number of steps,

6 however many there were, did you have to do anything

7 else to it after the last application of the

8 product?

9 A. I didnt have to do anything.

10 Q. Was the process of applying the Black Cat

11 product a dusty process?

12 A. When mistakes were made originally

13 applying it, no, but when we either removed some of

14 the mistakes it — not mine. It got quite dusty.

15 Between scraping and grinding and trying to clean up

16 the area.

17 Q. What kind of mistakes are we talking about

18 that would require that revision that you talked

19 about?

20 A. Not everybody can read a ruler and there

21 were times when people would put stuff up in the

22 wrong place. Im not saying all the time, but it

23 happened enough. I would go up there and refab it.

24 Q. Do you have a recollection of being on a

25 roof on a job where you had to do that when Mr.

138

1 Gerding was present with you?

2 A. Did we talk about the Whippany job?

3 Q. It has been mentioned here today.

4 A. Yes. The Whippany job that happened.

5 Wrong size curb came in.

6 Q. When you say wrong size curb, C U R B,

7 what does that mean?

8 A. Before you can put a fan down you have to

9 have a wooden buttress, usually metal covered wood

10 and you put your fan over it and then you use this

11 Black Cat and the rest of it and the fan was one

12 size, the curb was another. We didnt find out

13 until the fan came in.

14 Q. Was that a job in which both and you Mr.

15 Gerding were involved?

16 A. Yes. Never heard the end of that.

17 Q. Was Black Cat the only roofing cement that

18 Folander used on their jobs?

19 A. No. There were at least three different

20 types of cans that he used.

21 Q. Do you know whether or not the Black Cat

22 roofing cement was used on the Whippany job?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was the Black Cat cement the only cement

25 used on the Whippany job?

139

1 A. No. There were other parts of the

2 building that I worked on that we used other cans.

3 Q. Are you the one that originally installed

4 the fan that had to be moved?

5 A. The fan didnt come in until late. I put

6 the curb down.

7 Q. Did you use the Black Cat cement when you

8 put the curb down?

9 A. Yes. That was a 5 gallon. Big curb.

10 Q. How did you know a particular cement was a

11 Black Cat cement? What was there about the labeling

12 that let you know?

13 A. There was a Black Cat on it, black and

14 orange with a literal Cat on it. That is the only

15 one I remember. Not only one, but the one that

16 sticks out in my mind.

17 Q. Do you know whether or not the Black Cat

18 cement that you described using contained asbestos?

19 A. I dont know.

20 Q. Just jumping back for a minute because I

21 neglected to ask you, did the Benjamin Foster

22 sealant we have talked about just a few moments ago

23 in the application, create any dust?

24 A. Did it create any dust?

25 Q. When you applied it was there any dust

140

1 that was created when you would take it out of the

2 can and put it on the duct work?

3 A. I dont recall.

4 Q. Can you remember any other time when you

5 and Mr. Gerding were involved in a revision job like

6 the one that you have described for us that you did

7 at the Whippany facility? Are there any other

8 places where you recall specifically working with

9 him and that task having to be undertaken?

10 A. I dont recall.

11 Q. Can you estimate for me the amount of time

12 it took to remove the old roof cement in order to

13 revise the location for the fan?

14 A. If I had my time tickets I could, but I

15 dont have them and Im sorry I cant come up with a

16 time.

17 Q. I see.

18 A. It wasnt nice. It wasnt cheap.

19 MR. SUSS: Nothing further.

20 MS. PLACITELLA: We are going to stop

21 now and I will contact you with a new date.

22 (The deposition is adjourned at 3:40 p.m.)

23

24

25

150

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2

3 I, MARC BRODY, Notary Public and

4 Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State

5 of New Jersey, do hereby certify that prior

6 to the commencement of the examination

7 FREDERICK FARRELL

8 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth,

9 the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the

11 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript

12 of the testimony as taken stenographically

13 by and before me at the time, place and on

14 the date hereinbefore set forth.

15 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither

16 a relative of nor employee nor attorney nor

17 counsel for any of the parties to this

18 action, and that I am neither a relative

19 nor employee of such attorney or counsel,

20 and that I am not financially interested in

21 the action.

22

23 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey

As a leader of the plaintiffs' bar, Chris Placitella is known for helping to establish a national asbestos litigation group dedicated to successfully and effectively representing individuals suffering from asbestos-related diseases and their families.

Helping families suffering with mesothelioma for over 35 years. Listen…