SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
2 LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY
3 DOCKET NO: MID L 8044 06AS
4
5
6 RONALD DeMAYO
and FLORENCE DeMAYO,
7 Husband and Wife, DEPOSITION UNDER
ORAL EXAMINATION
8 Plaintiffs, OF
RANDAL DIAS
9 vs.
10 AMCHEM PRODUCTS, INC.,
3M COMPANY, CERTAINTEED
11 CORPORATION, GEORGIA PACIFIC
CORPORATION, RAPID AMERICAN
12 CORPORATION, individually and
as successor to the Celotex
13 Corporation, UNION CARBIDE
CORPORATION, JOHN DOE 1 through 75
14 (fictitious); CIBA GEIGY CORPORATION,
HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL, INC.,
15 Individually and as successor to
Allied Signal, Inc., Allied Chemical
16 Corp. and Aftermarket Brake and
Friction Materials, Division of Bendix
17 Corporation; NOVARTIS CORPORATION,
Individually and as successor to
18 Ciba Geigy Corp. and Sandoz;
19
(Caption continued on Page 2)
20
21
22
23 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES
Certified Shorthand Reporters and Videographers
24 90 Woodbridge Center Drive, Suite 220
Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095
25 (732) 283 5737
2
1 PZIZER, INC., Individually and as
successor to Warner Lambert Company;
2 KENTILE FLOOR, INC., Individually and
as successor to Kentile, Inc.;
3 FRANK A. MCBRIDE COMPANY; NOVARTIS
PHARMACEUTICALS CORPORATION,
4 Individually and as successor to
Ciba Geigy Corporation and Sandoz
5 Pharmaceuticals Corporation;
ROBERT A. KEASBEY CO., SIMON PROPERTY
6 GROUP, INC.; THE TAUBMAN COMPANY;
WARNER LAMBERT COMPANY, LLC,
7 Individually and as successor to
Warner Lambert Pharmaceutical Company,
8
Defendants.
9
10
11
12 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness,
13 called for Oral Examination in the above captioned
14 matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to
15 Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by
16 and before SANDRA VAN BLARCOM, a Notary Public and
17 Shorthand Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at
18 the law firm of MORGAN, MELHUISH & ABRUTYN, 651 West
19 Mount Pleasant Avenue, Livingston, New Jersey, on
20 Wednesday, November 14, 2007, commencing at
21 approximately 1:17 in the afternoon.
22
23
24
25
3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.
4 115 Maple Avenue
5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
6 (732) 747 9003
7 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Plaintiffs
9
10
11 PEPPER, HAMILTON, LLP
12 301 Carnegie Center, Suite 400
13 Princeton, New Jersey 08543 5276
14 (609) 452 0808
15 BY: ANTHONY J. DESTRIBATS, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Honeywell
17
18
19 STEIN, MCGUIRE, PANTAGES & GIGL, LLP
20 354 Eisenhower Parkway
21 Livingston, New Jersey 07039 0460
22 (973) 992 1100
23 BY: EDWARD J. SEAVER, ESQ.
24 Attorneys for Defendant, Simon Property
25
4
1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):
2
3 HARRIS BEACH, LLC
4 100 Wall Street
5 New York, New York 10005
6 (212) 912 3574
7 BY: WILLIAM T. MIEDEL, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Kentile
9
10
11 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, P.C.
12 100 Southgate Parkway
13 Morristown, New Jersey 07962 1997
14 (973) 889 4322
15 BY: CHRISTOPHER P. DEPHILLIPS, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Warner Lambert
17
18
19 MORGAN, MELHUISH & ABRUTYN
20 651 West Mount Pleasant Avenue, Suite 200
21 Livingston, New Jersey 07039 1673
22 (973) 863 7622
23 BY: ROBERT J. MACHI, ESQ.
24 Attorneys for Defendant, Novartis
25
5
1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):
2
3 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP
4 85 Livingston Avenue
5 Roseland, New Jersey 07068
6 (973) 535 0500
7 BY: MEGAN M. ROBERTS, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Frank A. McBride
9
10
11 PICILLO, CARUSO & OTOOLE, P.C.
12 60 Route 46 East
13 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
14 (973) 667 6000
15 BY: RONALD S. SUSS, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Amchem Products,
17 Certainteed, Union Carbide
18
19
20 GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
21 200 Park Avenue
22 New York, New York 10166
23 (212) 801 3173
24 BY: MARISSA BANEZ, ESQ.
25 Attorneys for Defendant, Robert A. Keasbey
6
1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Contd):
2
3 ALSO PRESENT
4 Rachel A. Placitella, Esq.
5 Patrick R. Harkins, Esq.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS PAGE
3 RANDAL DIAS
4 Direct by Mr. Placitella 8
5 Cross by Mr. Suss 102
6 Cross by Ms. Banez 104
7 Redirect by Mr. Placitella 105
8
9
10 E X H I B I T S
11 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
12 P 1 Notice of Deposition 8
13 P 2 Asbestos Survey 28
14 P 3 Report 48
15 P 4 Report 51
16 P 5 Diagrams 62
17 P 6 Assessment Report 92
18 (Exhibits P 5 and P 6 retained by Counsel.)
19
20 R E Q U E S T S
21 DESCRIPTION PAGE
22 1) Catalogs for lab equipment 81
23 2) Complete copy of Due Diligence Report 100
24 3) Copies of A 2, A 8, A 9, HV 2 and 107
color copies of P 2 and A 14
25
8
1 R A N D A L D I A S,
2 Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation,
3 One Health Plaza, East Hanover,
4 New Jersey, 07936, sworn.
5
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 (Whereupon, the aforementioned documents
8 were marked Plaintiffs Exhibits 1 4 for
9 identification on this date by the Reporter.)
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dias. Were here
11 today for purposes of taking your deposition. Have
12 you ever had your deposition taken before?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have the opportunity to discuss
15 whats going to go on in the deposition with your
16 attorney?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: I marked this as P 1
19 and I dated it.
20 Q. I want to show you whats been marked as
21 P 1 and ask you if youve ever seen that before?
22 A. No, I havent.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: For the record, this is
24 a Notice of Deposition and Demand for Production of
25 Documents and it asks that Novartis produce that
9
1 representative or those representatives with the most
2 knowledge concerning the use of asbestos and/or
3 asbestos containing products at the Sandoz building
4 located in East Hanover, New Jersey, during the
5 1960s.
6 Q. Do you understand that youre that
7 person?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. What qualifies you to give testimony in
10 this regard?
11 A. I am the person who has responsibility
12 for oversight of the capital investments in East
13 Hanover and I have been with that company since 1979
14 and have fairly in depth knowledge of what currently
15 exists from that time forward about the facilities.
16 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of
17 what exists before 1979?
18 A. No. I do not.
19 Q. You currently reside where?
20 A. Where I live?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I currently live in Green Brook, New
23 Jersey.
24 Q. Can you give us the benefit of your
25 education, please?
10
1 A. I have a Bachelor of Science in
2 Mechanical Engineering from the University of Dayton.
3 I have a Masters in Marketing from Fairleigh
4 Dickinson University. Im also a Licensed
5 Professional Engineer in the State of New Jersey.
6 Q. And you currently work for Novartis?
7 A. I do.
8 MR. MACHI: Just for the record, its
9 Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation.
10 Q. When I say Novartis well assume I said
11 it correct, okay, so we dont make the dep three
12 times longer than it has to be?
13 A. Thats fine.
14 MR. MACHI: Or you can refer to NPC.
15 Q. You currently work for Novartis, how
16 long have you worked for them?
17 A. Twenty eight years.
18 Q. Did you ever work for Sandoz at any
19 point in time?
20 A. Yes. I worked for the Sandoz Company
21 prior to the merger in 1997 to Novartis.
22 Q. What was the first job you got when you
23 got out of school?
24 A. When I first got out of school I worked
25 for a Division of Caterpillar Tractor working on
11
1 installation of emergency diesel generators.
2 Q. When did you start with Sandoz?
3 A. In 1979.
4 Q. What was your job?
5 A. My job was a project manager within the
6 engineering group.
7 Q. What did those responsibilities entail?
8 A. It entailed implementing projects
9 against the capital investments, a variety of
10 different projects. They were in production. They
11 were in offices. They were in laboratories.
12 Q. Were you physically familiar with the
13 Sandoz facility in Hanover? Did you actually tour
14 it, walk around it?
15 A. The facilities in East Hanover, yes. I
16 worked in virtually every single building on that
17 complex.
18 Q. How long did you keep the job as a
19 project manager?
20 A. Ive been in the department for
21 twenty eight years. I was a project manager and I
22 cant specifically tell you how long, but I can tell
23 you I now head up that department.
24 Q. When did you take it over?
25 A. I took over the first phase in 1989 and
12
1 then I was named head of engineering in space in 1997
2 after the merger.
3 Q. So in 1997, is that what you said?
4 A. In 89 I became the head of the
5 engineering organization under Sandoz and in 1997 the
6 head of engineering for Novartis.
7 Q. And your understanding of the
8 relationship between Sandoz and Novartis is what?
9 A. Novartis was the result of a merger
10 between Sandoz and Ciba Geigy and Novartis
11 Pharmaceuticals is now the current company of the two
12 predecessors.
13 Q. In your professional training, did you
14 have any training in construction safety?
15 A. No. I did not.
16 Q. How about as part of your job with
17 Sandoz or Novartis, have you ever had any training in
18 construction safety?
19 A. No. I have not.
20 Q. Have you ever had any training in
21 employee health and safety?
22 A. No. I have not.
23 Q. Now, this deposition notice asks that
24 you bring with you all contracts entered into by
25 Novartis or Sandoz concerning the construction or
13
1 renovation of the Sandoz buildings in East Hanover,
2 New Jersey, during the 1960s, did you bring those
3 with you?
4 A. No. I did not.
5 Q. Did you make an effort to look for them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you find anything?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Where did you look?
10 A. I looked through our records. Our
11 records only exist for approximately seven years and
12 then they are destroyed. The only records with
13 regard to this discussion is really these drawings
14 that exist today that are here for review.
15 Q. And the asbestos abatement records that
16 you supplied, youre aware of those?
17 A. I am aware of them.
18 Q. You were unable to find any documents
19 concerning contractors or subcontractors that worked?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Are you aware of any of the contractors
22 or subcontractors independently of having to look at
23 documents?
24 MR. MACHI: Can we specify a time period
25 here?
14
1 Q. Involved in the construction of, lets
2 limit it to
3 MR. MACHI: Why dont we limit it to the
4 period of time that Mr. DeMayo says he worked there
5 which was the early 1960s.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats fine.
7 A. Could you repeat the question?
8 Q. Are you aware of the identity of any of
9 the contractors or subcontractors involved in the
10 construction of the East Hanover facility during the
11 1960s?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you able to locate any material
14 specifications relating to the construction of any
15 East Hanover facility for Sandoz in the early 1960s?
16 MR. MACHI: Im going to object to the
17 form of the question. It clearly states in the
18 responses to the document production request that the
19 documentation that has been provided pertains to
20 Building 403 and 403 only.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand that
22 thats your response, but thats not what I have to
23 live with.
24 Q. Were you able to locate any documents
25 related to the construction of any buildings built by
15
1 Sandoz or for Sandoz during the 1960s?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
3 question.
4 MS. BANEZ: Join.
5 A. The documents are these that I produced.
6 Q. So these are the only documents you were
7 able to locate?
8 A. These are the only documents I was made
9 aware of.
10 Q. Who made you aware of them?
11 A. My attorney.
12 Q. Did you do an investigation yourself?
13 A. Privately?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. No. I did not.
16 Q. If you had to do the investigation,
17 where would you look?
18 A. I would look in the records that they
19 have in the archives.
20 Q. Where are they located?
21 A. I have no idea. Id have to go to a
22 source within the company to find out where they
23 archive the documents.
24 Q. So youve made no independent
25 investigation yourself to find out if there were any
16
1 documents responsive to this notice; is that fair?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
3 question.
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. The only thing you are aware of is
6 whatever your lawyer gave you?
7 A. What they had asked me about.
8 Q. What do you mean what they had asked you
9 about?
10 A. With regard to specific buildings that
11 were built in the 60s.
12 Q. What was your understanding of your
13 mission as it relates to this deposition?
14 A. I was here to talk to discussions
15 related to buildings that were constructed in the
16 early 60s at the Sandoz facility in East Hanover.
17 Q. The basis for your knowledge concerning
18 that information is what?
19 A. Would you repeat the question?
20 Q. Whats the basis for your providing that
21 information? Is it just the documents your lawyer
22 showed you or do you have some independent knowledge
23 of what went on during construction?
24 A. I dont have any independent knowledge
25 of what happened prior to 1979. I have knowledge of
17
1 the history of the site from when buildings were
2 constructed.
3 Q. Do you know who constructed any of the
4 Sandoz buildings in the early 1960s in East Hanover?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. The request asks for all documents
7 concerning Novartiss or Sandoz historical knowledge
8 of the dangers of asbestos. Did you make an
9 examination for that material?
10 A. The examination, yes.
11 Q. What did you do?
12 A. There were some surveys that were done
13 in I believe the 80s and the 90s of the presence of
14 asbestos in facilities.
15 Q. Were not on the same page. Did you
16 ever make an examination for records to determine
17 what Sandoz or Novartis knew about the dangers of
18 asbestos historically?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why not?
21 A. Thats not typically an area that I
22 would be involved in.
23 Q. Did you ask somebody else to make that
24 investigation for you?
25 A. No. I did not.
18
1 Q. Why not?
2 A. Again, thats typically an area that Im
3 not involved with.
4 Q. Did you have any understanding that that
5 was going to be part of the subject matter of this
6 deposition?
7 A. No. I wasnt aware.
8 Q. Did you look for any documents
9 concerning the prevention of exposure to asbestos
10 during the construction of any of the buildings on
11 the Sandoz property in the early 1960s?
12 A. No. I did not.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Typically, that would be handled by our
15 health, safety and environmental group.
16 Q. Whos in charge of that?
17 A. Currently?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. A gentleman by the name of Greg King.
20 Q. Where is he located?
21 A. East Hanover.
22 Q. Do you know who was in charge at that
23 job in the 1960s?
24 A. No. I do not.
25 Q. Does Greg Kings group maintain a
19
1 separate set of records concerning employee health
2 and safety?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. Did you undertake an investigation to
5 determine what documents exist in Novartiss
6 possession concerning the need to protect workers in
7 its facilities from exposure to asbestos?
8 A. No. I did not.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. Again, that would have been a function
11 of the health, safety and environmental department.
12 Q. So that would be Greg king?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Did you undertake an investigation to
15 look for all documents in defendants possession
16 relating to the warnings provided to workers in its
17 facilities concerning asbestos exposure?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why not?
20 A. Same situation, that would have been
21 something that would be handled by HS&E.
22 Q. In order to shortcut this, why dont we
23 have you look at this document and you circle for me
24 those numbers where you actually did something in
25 relation to them?
20
1 A. (Witness complies.)
2 Q. Thank you, sir. So if I understand your
3 markings correctly, out of the twenty items that were
4 requested that you bring with you today you only
5 conducted an investigation related to four of them,
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. For all the other items you conducted no
9 investigation whatsoever?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. And the reason for that was what?
12 A. I was aware of only that I was to look
13 at things related to how asbestos was used in
14 facilities.
15 MR. MACHI: Isnt that what the
16 deposition notice says?
17 MR. PLACITELLA: No. The deposition
18 notice asks him to produce all this information.
19 MR. MACHI: Well
20 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont want to fight
21 with you now. I dont have enough time.
22 MR. MACHI: Wait one second. The
23 deposition notice specifically says, all four
24 deposition notices say that the person to be produced
25 is a representative or representatives of this
21
1 defendant with the most knowledge concerning the use
2 of asbestos and slash or asbestos containing products
3 at the Sandoz buildings in the 1960s and the Summit
4 buildings and Ciba Geigy buildings in the 1970s.
5 That is this person.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not going to
7 confuse Ciba Geigy. Right now were talking about
8 Sandoz. There was a request made that all these
9 items be produced and they werent produced.
10 MR. MACHI: There was
11 MR. PLACITELLA: We dont have enough
12 time. Lets fight about it another time.
13 MR. MACHI: Were not going to fight
14 about it. Im just going to make one more statement.
15 Theres a deposition notice and theres a document
16 production request. The document production
17 requests, both sets were answered. The deposition
18 notice asks to produce the person most knowledgeable
19 about the uses of asbestos in the buildings. Mr.
20 Dias is that person.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
22 Q. What do you know about dust counts taken
23 during the installation, removal or cleanup of
24 asbestos in the Sandoz buildings in East Hanover, New
25 Jersey?
22
1 MR. MACHI: What period of time?
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just going by what
3 he circled.
4 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
5 question. You really should limit it to a certain
6 period of time.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just asking him
8 generally. Then Ill get specific.
9 A. What I can refer to is what we have done
10 since Ive been at Sandoz and now Novartis is that we
11 hire an outside contractor who actually does all of
12 the monitoring in the removal process. The procedure
13 is that there is no Novartis Pharmaceuticals
14 employees involved in that process so its strictly
15 done. They then generate the report and satisfy the
16 legal requirements of the removal of the asbestos.
17 Q. So you have no knowledge of anything
18 that predates 1979 in that regard?
19 A. I do not.
20 Q. What do you know about documents
21 concerning warnings provided by Novartis to any
22 outside contractor or any other person or entity
23 concerning the potential dangers of asbestos at the
24 Sandoz buildings?
25 A. Again, this is related to the fact that
23
1 my knowledge goes back to 1979. I do not have the
2 prior knowledge before that. What it is is our
3 warnings are given strictly to contractors that they
4 are responsible for job site safety, that they have
5 to comply with all the regulations and the
6 requirements of the law. We do not specifically
7 manage or look at any of the warnings during the
8 course of construction and it relates to any of the
9 activities that theyre doing on the job site and
10 that condition has existed since 1979.
11 Q. And you have no knowledge prior to 1979?
12 A. No knowledge prior to 1979.
13 Q. Tell me what you did to investigate and
14 prepare yourself for this deposition today.
15 A. I read the information from Mr. DeMayo
16 with regard to those excerpts that pertain to the
17 Sandoz facilities and from that I reviewed a series
18 of documents related to the building in question at
19 least from what I could incur from the information
20 which was Building 403, which was the laboratory
21 building that was built in the early 60s.
22 Q. And you said you reviewed documents,
23 what documents did you review?
24 A. Mostly the information that was
25 available which is the existing drawings of the
24
1 buildings that currently we have on record, the
2 asbestos surveys, the asbestos abatement reports that
3 we did, I believe they were in the mid 80s and
4 pretty much that was about the information.
5 Q. Was your conclusion that based upon Mr.
6 DeMayos descriptions the building he worked in was
7 Building 403?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you make a determination as to
10 whether any of the products that Mr. DeMayo described
11 in his deposition actually contained asbestos?
12 A. No. I did not.
13 Q. You dont know or did you endeavor to
14 find that out? I just want to make sure Im clear.
15 A. There was information that was provided
16 on the drawings that indicates that there were what
17 was known as asbestos containing materials that were
18 specified in the construction documents.
19 Q. Did you speak to any witnesses or
20 employees as part of your investigation?
21 A. No. I did not.
22 Q. What is your understanding of the nature
23 of Mr. DeMayos work at the Sandoz facility?
24 A. My understanding is that he was a
25 carpenter out of the union hall hired by either a
25
1 contractor or subcontractor to perform installation
2 of laboratory furniture.
3 Q. Do you know from your review of the
4 documents now that in fact the laboratory furniture
5 contained asbestos?
6 A. The laboratory furniture contained
7 components of transite. Transite is a known material
8 for asbestos, but the material itself is prefabbed
9 and is not built onsite. Its just connected onsite.
10 Q. Do you know if its ever fabricated for
11 fittings and things onsite?
12 A. No. It is not.
13 Q. How would you know what went on in 1962
14 with Mr. DeMayo?
15 A. I dont know what went on with Mr.
16 DeMayo, but I do know about the building. The
17 building itself is very typical laboratory buildings.
18 Ive built and destroyed existing labs. In fact, I
19 removed and destroyed a section of Building 403 as
20 part of an expansion program. The laboratory
21 furniture itself has linings that are called
22 transite. They come in prefabbed and assembled from
23 the manufacturer. Typically a carpenter is only
24 assembling the bottoms with the top and they do not
25 even handle the Transite.
26
1 Q. Who was the manufacturer in this case?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. Who did you speak to that was present
4 that would know what Mr. DeMayo did when he did the
5 construction of Building 403?
6 A. That I do not know.
7 Q. So the statements you make are based
8 upon assumptions, not upon personal knowledge,
9 correct?
10 A. My knowledge is based on the experience
11 of removing what existed in the building.
12 Q. Do you know when Mr. DeMayo was working
13 in that building whether there were other trades that
14 worked around him?
15 A. That I do not know.
16 Q. How many buildings are there in the
17 Sandoz East Hanover facility?
18 MR. MACHI: Presently are you talking
19 about?
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
21 A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty
22 to twenty five.
23 Q. How many existed during the 1960s?
24 A. Three.
25 Q. What buildings existed during the
27
1 1960s?
2 A. Building 401, Building 403 and then the
3 third building I believe was building 701.
4 Q. Do you know what order they were built
5 in?
6 A. 401, 403, 701.
7 Q. When was 401 built?
8 A. I believe it was 1940.
9 Q. When was 403 built?
10 A. 403 I believe was built in 1962.
11 Q. How do you know that?
12 A. Just from going back through the records
13 of the blueprints and seeing when the blueprints were
14 generated, the date they were generated.
15 Q. And the last building?
16 A. 701 was 1965.
17 Q. What was 701?
18 A. 701 was an office building.
19 Q. It had no laboratories?
20 A. No laboratories.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Ive marked this as
22 P 2.
23 Q. I have it marked as P 2, but just so we
24 can move through it quickly if you can turn to Bates
25 number 139.
28
1 MR. MACHI: Chris, when you say you have
2 it marked as P 2, you have that particular report
3 marked as P 2?
4 MR. PLACITELLA: The whole section. It
5 goes from 135 and goes to 243.
6 MR. MACHI: Thank you.
7 Q. Can you tell me what this is by the way,
8 this document?
9 A. This is an asbestos survey. It was done
10 by Atlantic Environmental.
11 Q. When was it done?
12 A. 1997.
13 Q. And the purpose was what?
14 A. To identify the presence of asbestos.
15 Q. Why?
16 A. In 1997 we were going to renovate the
17 buildings as a result of the merger of the company
18 and we were going to do extensive renovation of the
19 work.
20 Q. And you needed to identify the asbestos
21 for what reason?
22 A. It was according to the standard
23 operating procedure that we have in dealing with
24 older facilities.
25 Q. Were you involved in the commissioning
29
1 of this study?
2 A. Personally I was not, but it would have
3 been done under my organization.
4 Q. What were the results of the study
5 generally, if you remember?
6 A. Well, generally it was finding out
7 whether or not the pipe and the insulation in various
8 different areas including tiles and mastic, whether
9 or not they included parts of asbestos, to identify
10 where they were located and the extent of the
11 location throughout the building.
12 Q. Is it fair to say that the survey
13 demonstrated the presence of asbestos containing
14 products throughout Building 403?
15 A. Thats correct.
16 Q. If we can go to Page 3 of the report
17 which is I guess Bates Number 139, do you have that
18 in front of you?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. It says on the last paragraph, materials
21 which were positively identified as asbestos
22 containing in the two buildings include block pipe
23 insulation, do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Whats block pipe insulation?
30
1 A. Block pipe insulation would be what
2 would be called its a hard material that would be
3 used in high temperature steam operation.
4 Q. Where was the block pipe insulation
5 found?
6 A. I would have to review the report to
7 know.
8 Q. Have you ever seen block pipe insulation
9 installed?
10 A. No. I have not.
11 Q. Have you ever seen it removed?
12 A. No. I have not.
13 Q. The block pipe insulation, do you know
14 what trade would have installed that?
15 A. The insulators.
16 Q. When you say insulators, what do you
17 mean by that?
18 A. Its usually one of the trades out of
19 the union. They work closely with the pipe fitters,
20 but on most of our jobs we have a second trade that
21 comes in to insulate the pipe after the pipe fitters
22 complete the installation.
23 Q. What happened in 1962, do you know the
24 order of when the trades were in there?
25 A. I do not know.
31
1 Q. Do you know the contractor that
2 installed the block pipe insulation in Building 403?
3 A. No. I do not.
4 Q. Do any records to your knowledge exist
5 that would tell us that information?
6 A. No. There are no records.
7 Q. The block pipe insulation, do you know
8 whether or not that was ever installed in the
9 vicinity of where the carpenters were working?
10 MR. MACHI: Where Mr. DeMayo was working
11 in the labs are you talking about?
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Im talking about
13 carpenters right now.
14 A. No. I do not.
15 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether
16 block pipe insulation was installed in the vicinity
17 of where you believe Mr. DeMayo worked?
18 A. No. I believe not.
19 Q. Why do you say that?
20 A. The piping where we found asbestos is
21 located in the corridor of the building. The
22 corridor of the building was actually made out of
23 ceramic block and the piping transversed north to
24 south and vertically up through the utility closets.
25 The area of the laboratories is remote from that.
32
1 Its actually outside that area. Where the
2 laboratory fume hoods, the laboratory benches were
3 all put together is not the same area. What they did
4 is they used the main corridor of the building and
5 the overhead and the adjacent utility closets in
6 order to run vertically and north and south. So they
7 would not have the two trades in the same area.
8 Q. Do people have to walk through the
9 corridor to get to the laboratories?
10 A. In some instances yes and others no. It
11 depends on what room was being worked on. Many of
12 the rooms at the time have interconnecting suites.
13 So you could literally go from an outdoor area and
14 walk through all the suites without going through the
15 main hallway.
16 Q. How did you come into the building to
17 get to the laboratories, did you have to go through
18 the corridor?
19 A. When the building is finished, but I do
20 not have any knowledge of how they were accessing the
21 building during construction. Typically, there are
22 two or three secondary entranceways into a building
23 as theyre doing construction to bring men and
24 material into a building. Usually you dont use the
25 main entrances.
33
1 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to
2 whether or not Mr. DeMayo came into contact with
3 people installing block pipe insulation?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Pipe fitting insulation, whats that?
6 A. Pipe fitting is the insulation, usually
7 its a loose mat and its used to insulate around
8 elbows and valves and tees.
9 Q. Do you understand that to be a
10 cementitious material?
11 A. It could be a combination of different
12 materials.
13 Q. Do you understand it to come dry in a
14 bag?
15 A. Im not familiar with it.
16 Q. Are you familiar with how it was
17 installed?
18 A. No. Im not familiar with how it was
19 installed.
20 Q. Are you familiar with whether pipe
21 fitting insulation was installed in any of the
22 laboratories that Mr. DeMayo would have worked in?
23 A. My knowledge of reviewing the drawings
24 it was probably doubtful there was any pipe
25 insulation in the labs themselves. Most of the
34
1 insulation was related to steam piping. The steam
2 piping and the runs and the turns were all done in
3 the corridor areas. In the laboratories themselves
4 they were just very small fittings for gases and for
5 water. These are typically not insulated and in this
6 building they were as with our other buildings they
7 were not insulated. These are very small pipes
8 usually in the range of half inch, quarter inch type
9 compression fitting tubings.
10 Q. Do you have any information to indicate
11 whether or not Mr. DeMayo would have been in contact
12 while doing his job with people installing pipe
13 insulation?
14 A. No. I do not.
15 Q. Do you know what trades would have been
16 in the vicinity of people installing pipe insulation
17 in Building 403?
18 A. No. I would not.
19 Q. If Mr. DeMayo testified that he saw
20 people doing pipe covering in his vicinity, would you
21 have any information to contradict that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Floor tile, did you determine that there
24 was asbestos containing floor tile?
25 A. Yes, we did.
35
1 Q. Where was that installed?
2 A. That was installed throughout the
3 laboratory areas and the main corridors.
4 Q. Do you know what trades installed the
5 asbestos containing floor tile?
6 A. No. I do not.
7 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
8 vicinity of when the asbestos containing floor tiles
9 were installed?
10 A. No. I do not.
11 Q. Laboratory countertops, do you
12 understand that they contained asbestos?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What trades would have to your knowledge
15 installed laboratory countertops?
16 A. The countertops would have been part of
17 the laboratory furniture installation. They would
18 have come prefabbed from the manufacturer and they
19 would be assembled similar to the laboratory
20 furniture. You usually put the bench in first, the
21 countertop on top and then if you have a fume hood,
22 the fume hood goes on top of that and they would have
23 been glued together.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you read my
25 question back?
36
1 Q. Could you try to answer my question,
2 please?
3 MR. MACHI: He wanted to know which
4 trade.
5 Q. All I wanted to know is what trade
6 installed it?
7 MR. MACHI: If you know.
8 Q. Do you know what trade installed it?
9 A. In the actual building?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No.
12 Q. When the laboratory countertops come,
13 you said they had to be glued together or assembled?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. The edges of the countertops, are they
16 exposed or are they smooth?
17 A. Smooth.
18 Q. How do you know that?
19 A. From my knowledge of removal of the
20 existing installations.
21 Q. What was your knowledge as to how they
22 came though? Did they ever have to put bull noses on
23 any of the countertops?
24 A. No. The countertops are typically
25 brought in all finished and are only assembled.
37
1 There isnt
2 Q. When
3 MR. MACHI: I dont think hes done with
4 his answer. Did you finish your answer?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 Q. Where are the countertops fabricated?
7 A. At the manufacturer of the laboratory
8 furniture.
9 Q. Do you know who Sandoz typically used as
10 the manufacturer of laboratory furniture?
11 MR. MACHI: In 62?
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Historically.
13 A. Historically, it was Hamilton Fisher.
14 Q. Whats the basis for that information?
15 A. Just from all the laboratory work that
16 Ive done over the years at the Sandoz site.
17 Q. Where are they located?
18 A. I do not know.
19 Q. Are they still in business?
20 A. I believe they are.
21 Q. Do you continue to use them as a vendor?
22 A. We have used them in the past. We have
23 not used them recently.
24 Q. The laboratory hoods, you understood
25 that they contained asbestos?
38
1 A. They contained transite, yes.
2 Q. And the laboratory hoods were placed
3 over the tables or over the countertops?
4 A. Over the countertops.
5 Q. What trades to your knowledge installed
6 the laboratory hoods?
7 A. On this particular job I dont know what
8 trade.
9 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
10 vicinity of the people installing the laboratory
11 hoods?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Laboratory hood exhaust ducts, what are
14 they?
15 A. They are typically exhaust ducts.
16 Q. Do you understand that they were
17 installed in the laboratories that Mr. DeMayo worked
18 in?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Do you know what trades installed those?
21 A. Would typically be the mechanical
22 contractor.
23 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
24 vicinity while the laboratory hood exhaust ducts were
25 installed?
39
1 A. No.
2 Q. Whats a duct coating?
3 A. Typically, its film that would be
4 coated onto lets say sheet metal, whether it was
5 steel or whether it was aluminum, to be resistant to
6 chemical vapors.
7 Q. Where would asbestos containing duct
8 coating be installed in Building 403?
9 A. Would have been on the exhaust ducts.
10 Q. In the laboratories?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. What trade would have been involved in
13 installing that product?
14 A. That would have been the mechanical
15 contractor.
16 Q. Do you know what form that duct coating
17 comes in?
18 A. No. I do not.
19 Q. Do you know whether its fabricated or
20 not during installation?
21 A. It typically is not fabricated. It
22 usually comes in already coated.
23 Q. Do you know in this case whether it was
24 fabricated or not?
25 A. Do not.
40
1 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
2 vicinity of the people installing the duct coating?
3 A. Do not.
4 Q. The laboratory and fire doors, do you
5 understand that they contained asbestos in Building
6 403?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know what trades installed those?
9 A. No. I do not.
10 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
11 vicinity of the laboratory and fire doors when they
12 were installed?
13 A. No. I do not.
14 Q. Do you know from personal knowledge
15 whether these doors were ever fabricated onsite in
16 Building 403?
17 A. No. I do not.
18 Q. Transite lined laboratory cabinetry, is
19 that something from your reading of the record,
20 something that Mr. DeMayo would have worked with?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
22 question, but how is this witness supposed to know
23 whether Mr. DeMayo would or would not have worked
24 with something?
25 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont know. He said
41
1 he read his testimony and so Im asking him a
2 question.
3 Q. Do you know as a carpenter installing
4 equipment in the laboratories in Building 403 whether
5 this would have been a product that Mr. DeMayo
6 installed?
7 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
8 question.
9 A. I doubt that he would have installed it
10 since the cabinet comes in already preassembled.
11 Q. Who installs the cabinet?
12 A. The cabinets are mounted together.
13 Q. Who does that?
14 A. That typically is a carpenter trade.
15 Q. And thats what Mr. DeMayo did, right?
16 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
17 question.
18 Q. He was carpenter in the laboratories?
19 A. According to the information he was
20 working as a carpenter in the laboratories.
21 Q. Do you know what trade installed the
22 transite lined laboratory cabinetry?
23 A. The transite would have been installed
24 at the factory that produced the laboratory
25 cabinetry.
42
1 Q. Who was your historical supplier of that
2 equipment at Sandoz?
3 A. Historically, it would have been
4 Hamilton Fisher.
5 Q. Do you know what trades worked in the
6 vicinity when the transite lined laboratory cabinetry
7 was installed in the laboratories at Building 403?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Am I correct that the main steam lines
10 distributed throughout the building in different
11 floors contained asbestos material?
12 MR. MACHI: What page are you referring
13 to, Chris?
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just asking him a
15 question.
16 A. According to what I know of the report,
17 there were a number of lines that contained asbestos.
18 Q. Throughout the building on all the
19 floors, correct?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. And the majority of the flooring in
22 Building 403 also contained asbestos, correct?
23 A. If youre referring to the vinyl
24 asbestos tile that was noted in the report.
25 Q. So is the answer yes?
43
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. DeMayo testified about installing
3 soap stone countertops, do you recall that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. All the soap stone laboratory
6 countertops were disposed by Sandoz as
7 asbestos containing material, correct?
8 A. According to the report, correct.
9 Q. Why dont you describe to me from your
10 recollection what the laboratories looked like
11 generally at the Sandoz facility before you took out
12 all the asbestos in 1997?
13 A. A typical lab would be about a thousand
14 square feet in size. It would consist of benches on
15 either side of the wall and a center bench very
16 similar to what you would have in a kitchen, not
17 wood, mostly metal. There would typically be one,
18 maybe two fume hoods in the room. They would be
19 connected to an exhaust duct that would lead to an
20 exhaust fan usually located on the roof of the
21 facility.
22 Q. The ducts which are connected to the
23 exhaust fans also contained asbestos, correct?
24 A. I believe the ducts were transite
25 material and some lined steel.
44
1 Q. The report indicates theres
2 approximately eighty linear feet of
3 asbestos containing black tar like duct material, are
4 you familiar with that?
5 MR. MACHI: What page are you on?
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Page 7 of the report.
7 A. That would have been what we referred to
8 as lining of duct work.
9 Q. Theres a network of duct work that
10 contains that material, correct?
11 A. According to the report, yes.
12 Q. In Building 403 there were two hundred
13 and eighty eight doors that contained asbestos,
14 correct?
15 A. According to this report, yes.
16 Q. Was that every door in the facility?
17 A. That I do not know.
18 Q. You dont know whether those doors were
19 cut to be fit when they were installed, correct?
20 A. Most likely not.
21 Q. But you dont know?
22 A. The doors what I do know about the
23 doors is the doors were metal doors. The asbestos is
24 the material that was done to insulate and fireproof
25 the door. That was inside the door itself.
45
1 Q. Where is the transite located in the
2 laboratory cabinetry?
3 A. And the laboratory cabinetry, these are
4 fire cabinets that are required by code. Thats
5 where they store the solvent bottles from the
6 materials that theyre using in the laboratory. Its
7 physically like an inside lining to the cabinet.
8 Q. The setup for the laboratories, was that
9 typical of how laboratories were set up in the
10 pharmaceutical industry to your knowledge?
11 A. In the 1960s, yes.
12 Q. Did that ever change to your knowledge
13 in the 1970s?
14 A. Yes, it did.
15 Q. When did it change and why to your
16 knowledge?
17 A. It changed in the late 70s, mainly due
18 around the requirements of the labs.
19 Q. What do you mean by that?
20 A. Labs became more critical to have more
21 fume hoods to deal with the experiments, not on open
22 benches, but within fume hoods.
23 Q. So up until the late 1970s the labs
24 would typically have asbestos containing countertops,
25 correct?
46
1 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
2 question. I dont know if that accurately reflects
3 what he just said. You can ask him, but
4 MR. PLACITELLA: So let me ask him and
5 maybe if you dont testify just let him answer the
6 question.
7 MR. MACHI: I dont think I was
8 testifying, Chris.
9 Q. Its my understanding that up until some
10 time in the late 1970s the countertops used in these
11 kind of labs typically contained asbestos?
12 A. I dont know if they typically contained
13 asbestos. They were typically referred to as soap
14 stone. In the 70s they went more to an epoxy resin
15 material. Thats the change I know about.
16 Q. What about the exhaust hoods, did they
17 continue to contain transite well into the 1970s?
18 A. No. They did not.
19 Q. When did that change?
20 A. I can only go back to when I was heavily
21 involved in laboratories which was back in the late
22 70s. Most of the material then went to galvanized
23 duct work and stainless duct work.
24 Q. Do you know when that happened?
25 A. Again, I only know the fact that when I
47
1 was involved in a lot of construction and design of
2 laboratories they were no longer using transite
3 materials.
4 Q. More than fifty percent of the pipe
5 fittings in Building 403 contained asbestos, true?
6 MR. MACHI: Where are you, Chris, what
7 page?
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just asking him a
9 question. Ill get to the page.
10 A. That Im not familiar with. I know
11 there was asbestos in the fittings. I dont know to
12 what extent it was.
13 Q. If you look at Page 4 of the report,
14 first of all, Im sorry, I mischaracterized. It says
15 asbestos was found to be present in about fifty
16 percent of the pipe fitting insulation samples
17 collected, correct?
18 A. Uh huh.
19 MR. MACHI: Where does it say that, Im
20 sorry?
21 MR. PLACITELLA: First full paragraph,
22 third sentence.
23 A. I must be on a different page.
24 Q. Youre right. Go to the Bates Number
25 244.
48
1 MR. MACHI: Is this P 3 then?
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Right, P 3.
3 MR. MACHI: So P 3 goes from 244 to
4 what, Chris?
5 MR. PLACITELLA: 335.
6 MR. MACHI: Thank you.
7 A. Yes. According to the report, yes.
8 Q. And this report is from 1995, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And what this report says is that as of
11 1995 asbestos was found to be present in about fifty
12 percent of the pipe fitting insulation samples,
13 correct?
14 A. That were taken, yes.
15 Q. Many of these fittings were located in
16 areas which are accessible to their physical
17 placement above duct work, other building system
18 components or structural obstructions, correct?
19 MR. MACHI: Inaccessible.
20 A. Inaccessible, correct.
21 Q. There was duct work that contained
22 asbestos suspended above the ceilings in the
23 laboratories, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What typically happens in your
49
1 experience, when is the ceiling put up in the chain
2 of events during the construction of a laboratory?
3 A. In the chain of events?
4 Q. Right.
5 A. The ceiling is usually put up after the
6 duct work has been installed and completed and all
7 the piping in the overhead has been completed.
8 Usually there are no other trades in that area. The
9 ceiling as well as the furniture are pretty much the
10 last activities that happen, because youre at the
11 point of really finishing the facility for occupancy.
12 Q. Do you know what efforts were made by
13 Sandoz during the construction of Building 403 to
14 ensure the asbestos was out of the laboratory areas
15 before Mr. DeMayo got there?
16 A. I actually have no knowledge of that.
17 Q. Do you know the process for insulating
18 the asbestos containing ducts that were above these
19 suspended ceilings in the laboratories in Building
20 403?
21 A. Im not familiar with the process they
22 would have employed.
23 Q. You understand that both chrysotile
24 do you know what chrysotile asbestos is?
25 A. No, I dont.
50
1 Q. Do you know what crocidolite asbestos
2 is?
3 A. No, I dont.
4 Q. Do you understand from reviewing this
5 report that they found both chrysotile and
6 crocidolite asbestos in Building 403 when they did
7 these surveys?
8 A. No. I didnt identify that information.
9 Q. Who is Jonathan Smith?
10 A. Jonathan Smith is one of the engineers
11 who works for me.
12 Q. What was his role in relation to the
13 removal of asbestos in Building 403?
14 A. He was probably assigned to do the
15 abatement.
16 Q. What do you mean by he was assigned to
17 do the abatement?
18 A. He would have been involved in the
19 removal of the asbestos as part of the demolition.
20 Q. Youre familiar with the fact that when
21 they quantified the amount of asbestos they found
22 there was seven hundred asbestos containing elbow
23 fitting insulation on existing pipelines as of 1997?
24 MR. MACHI: Where are you referring to?
25 Q. Building 403?
51
1 MR. MACHI: Where are you referring to,
2 Chris, Bates stamp number if you could?
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Novartis 08. Ive
4 marked it as P 4.
5 MR. MACHI: What was your question
6 again?
7 Q. Do you understand that they found seven
8 hundred asbestos containing elbow fitting insulation?
9 A. According to this report, yes.
10 Q. And approximately twenty seven thousand
11 three hundred square feet of asbestos containing
12 vinyl floor tile and mastic?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And five thousand seven hundred and
15 twenty five square feet of asbestos containing
16 countertops?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And a thousand linear feet of asbestos
19 duct work?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And approximately nineteen hundred
22 square feet of troweled on tile adhesive were even
23 found in the bathrooms?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Are there certain basic principles of
52
1 worker protection followed in industry to make sure
2 the employees of the pharmaceutical industry working
3 in the labs are protected?
4 MR. MACHI: Objection. What period of
5 time are you talking about here?
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just asking him
7 generally.
8 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
9 question.
10 Q. Ill ask the question this way. Would
11 you agree with me that the owner of a work site has
12 responsibility to provide a safe place to work?
13 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
14 question.
15 MR. DEPHILLIPS: Objection to form.
16 MR. MACHI: Are you asking for an
17 opinion?
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, in his experience.
19 MR. MACHI: Hes not here as an expert
20 witness.
21 Q. Are there basic principles that you
22 follow as part of your job to make sure peoples
23 health and safety are protected that work in your
24 facilities?
25 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
53
1 question.
2 MR. SEAVER: Objection to the form.
3 A. I can talk to the process that we go
4 through.
5 Q. If you cant answer it yes or no, tell
6 me that. Are there certain basic principles that you
7 follow to make sure people who work during the
8 construction of your facilities are protected?
9 MR. DEPHILLIPS: Objection.
10 MR. SEAVER: Objection.
11 MR. MACHI: Youre talking about today,
12 right?
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Ill go back. I want
14 to know what he knows and well go backwards.
15 MR. MACHI: The question doesnt specify
16 a time period. If you can answer the question,
17 thats fine, but I would suggest you qualify it.
18 Q. Are you familiar with the principle that
19 the owner of a work site has responsibility to
20 provide a safe place to work?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
22 question. Calls for a legal conclusion.
23 MR. DEPHILLIPS: Objection to form.
24 Q. You can answer it.
25 A. Do you want to repeat the question
54
1 again?
2 Q. Are you familiar with the principle that
3 an owner of a work site has responsibility to provide
4 a safe place to work?
5 MR. MACHI: Objection to form.
6 MR. DEPHILLIPS: Objection to form.
7 A. Im familiar with the requirements of
8 what Novartis requires us to do on the site.
9 Q. So is the answer to that yes or no?
10 MR. MACHI: Objection. He just answered
11 the question.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the principle that
13 the owner of a work site has a responsibility to
14 provide a safe place to work?
15 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form.
16 MR. SEAVER: Objection to the form.
17 MR. DEPHILLIPS: Objection to the form.
18 Do you want to ask him if there is such principle?
19 MR. PLACITELLA: No. I want to ask the
20 question my way. You can do it when its your turn.
21 A. I dont really understand what you mean
22 about the principle.
23 Q. In your involvement in construction as a
24 project manager, do you understand the owner, that
25 being Sandoz or Novartis, had a responsibility to
55
1 hire contractors knowledgeable about state and
2 federal safety laws designed to protect workers on
3 the site?
4 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
5 question. You can answer.
6 A. What I can tell you is that we do
7 require our contractors to follow all the regs and
8 requirements and as part of that process of selecting
9 a contractor that is one of the criteria that we
10 evaluate.
11 Q. So is the answer to my question yes?
12 A. If you could repeat the question, sorry.
13 Q. Did Sandoz as an owner of a work site
14 when it was constructing a work site have
15 responsibility to hire contractors knowledgeable
16 about state and federal safety laws designed to
17 protect workers on the site?
18 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
19 question. This is so unfair, because youre asking
20 when it was constructing a work site. If youre
21 asking for 1960s, hes already testified he can tell
22 you about 1979
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Hes told me all about
24 his assumptions in 1960s. Ill ask him if its
25 changed over time.
56
1 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
2 question.
3 A. What I can tell you is today, yes.
4 Q. To your knowledge, has that ever changed
5 historically?
6 A. I cannot tell you anything prior to
7 1979.
8 Q. Have you ever seen anything in the
9 records of Novartis or Sandoz to indicate that they
10 did anything other than hire contractors
11 knowledgeable with federal and state safety
12 regulations?
13 A. I can only refer to what my experience
14 has been since 1979 and the answer to that is no.
15 Q. You agree that an owner of a work site
16 like Sandoz or Novartis has a responsibility to know
17 and understand the activities being carried on at the
18 site?
19 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
20 question. Calls for a legal conclusion and an
21 opinion and hes not here to give either.
22 Q. Im just asking you as your experience
23 as an engineer and a project manager?
24 MR. MACHI: Hes not here for that
25 purpose.
57
1 Q. Youre an engineer, are you not, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And a project manager?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you have been involved in
6 construction of facilities for Sandoz and then
7 Novartis, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In your trade as an engineer and as a
10 project manager, thats the context Im asking you
11 these questions, does an owner of a work site have a
12 responsibility to know and understand the activities
13 that are being carried on at the site?
14 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
15 question.
16 MR. SEAVER: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 Q. While under construction?
19 A. In the case of Novartis we do not. We
20 rely solely on the responsibility of the contractor
21 to deal with all the issues related to the job site.
22 In fact, we do not even directly supervise any of the
23 requirements of the job site. We rely solely on the
24 contractor to manage his staff, his subcontractors
25 and his subcontractors to manage the work and create
58
1 a safe environment for his employees.
2 Q. No matter how dangerous the conditions
3 that exist during the construction, thats your
4 policy?
5 A. If we in fact observe a situation in our
6 opinion could be an unsafe condition on the job site,
7 our responsibility is to notify the contractor of the
8 situation and have him deal directly with the
9 situation.
10 Q. So if you know that somebody is working
11 in a dangerous condition, you believe your
12 responsibility is solely to tell the contractor and
13 that you have no further responsibility beyond that?
14 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
15 question.
16 Q. Is that what youre saying?
17 A. We have in fact told them and thats
18 what we do as a process.
19 Q. So if somebody is being injured on the
20 job that youre paying for, you think your
21 responsibility stops by telling the contractor to
22 take care of it even though you know a dangerous
23 condition exists, is that what youre telling me?
24 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
25 question.
59
1 A. From my perspective, were not on the
2 job site all the time. What I indicated is if we do
3 observe something that we notify the contractor of
4 the situation.
5 Q. And then what?
6 A. And then we have the contractor deal
7 with the situation.
8 Q. Suppose the contractor does not, then
9 what?
10 A. Then we would have the right to halt the
11 work.
12 Q. So if somebody is encountering a
13 dangerous condition during the construction of one of
14 your facilities, you have the ultimate right to shut
15 down that job until its done safely, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. So you maintain ultimate control over
18 the health and safety of the workers on that site,
19 true?
20 MR. MACHI: Objection.
21 A. No. We do not.
22 Q. You dont?
23 A. No. We do not.
24 Q. You have the right and the
25 responsibility to shut down the job site if you know
60
1 that people on that job site are in harms way,
2 correct?
3 A. We reserve the right under our contract
4 to terminate any activity that we observe as being
5 unsafe.
6 Q. And that is something that has existed
7 traditionally in contracts for Sandoz and Novartis
8 going back to the 1950s, true?
9 A. I cannot speak for anything prior to
10 1979.
11 Q. So you dont know what the policy was
12 for Sandoz before 1979 if somebody would be in a
13 dangerous condition while involved in the
14 construction of a Sandoz facility?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you believe that it would have been
17 incumbent upon Sandoz to shut down an operation where
18 it had noticed that people were encountering a
19 dangerous condition during construction?
20 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
21 question. Again, youre asking for opinions, youre
22 presenting hypothetical facts.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: No, Im not. Im
24 asking him his understanding.
25 Q. What was the policy of Sandoz
61
1 historically when it received notice that somebody on
2 its job site was encountering a dangerous condition?
3 MR. MACHI: Thats a different question.
4 What period of time?
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Historically.
6 A. Historically, the process has always
7 been that it is up to the contractor to maintain the
8 job site safety on construction sites. Historically,
9 we are not given notice of an unsafe condition on a
10 job site. We occasionally visit the job sites to
11 verify that the work is proceeding according to the
12 notification of the contractor on schedule and per
13 the scope that was contracted for, but those are
14 occasional. It was even less in the early days when
15 I first came. The company relied extremely heavily
16 on the contractor to do the majority of the work with
17 regard to the construction site, because there were
18 not sufficient resources on the Sandoz side to really
19 monitor anything that was going on on the job site
20 and thats how the policy came into play.
21 Q. When you say not sufficient resources,
22 what do you mean by that?
23 A. The organization is really set up as a
24 project management organization so we oversee the
25 work from the capital projects. We are not a
62
1 contractor. We dont profess to be a contractor and
2 we dont get involved in any of the negotiations with
3 regard to subcontractors and the trades and the
4 scheduling of the activities and the subcontractors.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. This group of
6 documents is going to be marked P 5 for
7 identification. I put P 5 up there. I dont know
8 how you want to mark it later on.
9 MR. MACHI: I dont know if I want to
10 mark it at all. In the lower right hand corner is
11 there a diagram number or something we can refer to?
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Im going to ask the
13 group be marked P 5. We dont have to do it right
14 now. Well do it during a break and if he can
15 identify these generally, thats sufficient for my
16 purposes now.
17 (Whereupon, the aforementioned diagrams
18 were marked Plaintiffs Exhibit 5 for identification
19 on this date by the Reporter.)
20 A. Identify these?
21 Q. Yes.
22 MR. MACHI: I just want to make sure
23 when we go back and read the transcript we know what
24 diagram hes referring to.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: When I get to a
63
1 specific diagram I will definitely articulate that.
2 A. Can I take a look?
3 Q. Absolutely.
4 A. These are the original blueprint
5 drawings for Building 403.
6 Q. Where did you get these from?
7 A. These were from our records of
8 buildings.
9 Q. Who approves the architectural drawings?
10 A. The architect who produced them.
11 Q. Does Sandoz have to approve the drawings
12 before the building is built?
13 A. Sandoz usually reviews the buildings
14 before the building is built, but the drawings are
15 actually signed by the architect or in this case also
16 the engineer.
17 Q. Did Sandoz have an engineer or somebody
18 in charge of reviewing the blueprints to your
19 knowledge with the architect to make sure they
20 satisfied your needs?
21 A. That I dont know.
22 Q. You did not find as part of your
23 examination the material specifications?
24 A. No. We did not.
25 Q. Who would have put together the material
64
1 specifications for this building?
2 A. The respective architect and engineer
3 who developed the drawings.
4 Q. Would those specifications ultimately
5 have to be approved by Sandoz?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would Sandoz know what materials were
8 going into its facility?
9 A. They would know in general terms what
10 materials were specified on the documents.
11 Q. The facility wouldnt be built without
12 Sandoz knowing exactly what was going in its
13 facility, correct?
14 A. It could. Sandoz could not focus on
15 every aspect of the job, just the key components.
16 Usually those components are the components that are
17 related to the things that people will utilize.
18 Q. There were thousands of square feet of
19 asbestos installed in this facility, correct?
20 A. According to the report, yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me what, if anything, to
22 your knowledge Sandoz did to determine whether the
23 material the asbestos that was installed in this
24 building could present a hazard to human health?
25 A. I am not familiar with what would have
65
1 been done at that time. I can only go back to 1979.
2 Q. If somebody was involved in the
3 construction of this building and was exposed to
4 asbestos, Sandoz had the ultimate authority to shut
5 down that job if it wanted to, correct?
6 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
7 question.
8 A. I do not know what the condition was for
9 the contract for this project.
10 Q. Can you think of an instance where the
11 owner like Sandoz would not have the authority to
12 stop the job and shut it down?
13 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
14 question.
15 A. As to what condition?
16 Q. When a dangerous condition is presented
17 to the people who are on the construction site, did
18 Sandoz have the authority to shut the job down?
19 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
20 question. What do you mean by dangerous condition in
21 the context of something that happened in 1960 or
22 61? Are you talking about any dangerous condition?
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you want to switch
24 seats with him and Ill ask you the questions?
25 MR. MACHI: If youd like.
66
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Why dont we do that.
2 Why dont we take a break and you switch seats,
3 because your objections are clearly not in line with
4 the New Jersey court rules.
5 MR. MACHI: Ive read the New Jersey
6 court rules.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Then you know youre
8 misbehaving.
9 MR. MACHI: No, Im not. What Im doing
10 is objecting to the form of the question.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: So then just say object
12 to the form. Thats good.
13 MR. MACHI: No. The New Jersey court
14 rules permit me to state the basis for the objection.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
16 MR. MACHI: Yeah, they do. I read them
17 the other day.
18 Q. Mr. DeMayo, he is exposed to asbestos
19 according to his testimony while he is in the
20 construction of the building in East Hanover in the
21 early 1960s, do you recall that?
22 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
23 question. That isnt even a question. Its a
24 statement.
25 Q. Do you recall reading that testimony?
67
1 A. No. I do not recall reading it.
2 Q. Im going to ask you to assume that
3 there was asbestos exposure to people who were
4 constructing this facility and ask you whether Sandoz
5 had the right to shut down that job if it wanted to?
6 MR. MACHI: Object to the form of the
7 question. Why are you asking a fact witness to
8 assume anything? He either knows something or he
9 doesnt know something. Hes not an expert witness.
10 Q. Did Sandoz have the right to shut down
11 this construction project if it wanted to?
12 A. In 1960, I do not know.
13 Q. What would have changed in your
14 professional experience that would have made it a
15 different situation in 1979?
16 A. It would be what the regulations were
17 covering, the requirements that were considered
18 hazardous that would require us to take some action
19 if we thought there was a serious violation of a
20 regulation.
21 Q. What did you know in 1979 about the
22 dangers of asbestos?
23 MR. MACHI: Youre asking for his
24 personal knowledge?
25 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
68
1 A. In 1979, I was aware of the fact that it
2 was considered a hazardous material.
3 Q. When you say hazardous, what do you mean
4 by that?
5 A. What I mean by that is there are laws
6 covering the handling and the containment of
7 asbestos bearing materials.
8 Q. Do you know when Sandoz first became
9 knowledgeable that exposure to asbestos is
10 potentially hazardous to human health?
11 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
12 question.
13 A. Im not aware of when Novartis did. Im
14 aware of when I became aware of it, but not Novartis.
15 Q. Did your contracts historically require
16 that all parties comply with federal and state laws
17 when theyre constructing your facilities?
18 A. Our contracts since 1979 have. I have
19 not seen any contracts prior to that period of time.
20 Q. Who hired the general contractor for the
21 construction of Building 403?
22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. Do you know whether it was Sandoz or
24 some other entity?
25 A. That I do not know.
69
1 Q. Who hired the subcontractors for the
2 construction of Building 403?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. Was someone present at any point in time
5 on behalf of Sandoz during the construction of
6 Building 403?
7 A. I dont know that.
8 Q. Who monitored the work of the
9 contractors during the construction of Building 403?
10 A. Dont know.
11 Q. Describe to me all measures taken by
12 Sandoz to ensure that the mandatory safety
13 regulations were followed by the contractors during
14 the construction of Building 403?
15 MR. MACHI: What mandatory safety
16 regulations?
17 MR. PLACITELLA: All mandatory safety
18 regulations.
19 A. I do not know the process that was
20 employed at that time. I can refer to what we do and
21 what weve done historically.
22 Q. Im just asking you about
23 A. No.
24 Q. What representative of Sandoz was
25 responsible for protecting the health and safety of
70
1 workers constructing Building 403?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. Do you have any information as to
4 whether Sandoz made sure that air monitoring was done
5 during the construction of Building 403?
6 A. No. I have no information on that.
7 Q. Do you have any information as to
8 whether Sandoz made sure that people who were
9 encountering asbestos containing products during the
10 construction of Building 403 wore respiratory
11 protection?
12 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
13 question.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have any information as to
16 whether Sandoz made sure that trades were segregated
17 from one another during the construction of Building
18 403?
19 A. I have no knowledge.
20 Q. Do you have any information to indicate
21 that Sandoz in any way warned workers on the site
22 during the construction of Building 403 that they
23 were being exposed to asbestos?
24 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
25 question.
71
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you have any information to indicate
3 that Sandoz made sure that workers who are using hand
4 powered tools during the construction of Building
5 403?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you have any information concerning
8 what, if any, measures were taken during the
9 construction of Building 403 to ensure that people
10 exposed during the cleanup of construction materials
11 were protected?
12 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
13 question.
14 A. No.
15 Q. As the person most knowledgeable about
16 the use of asbestos in Building 403, do you have any
17 evidence to contradict Mr. DeMayos testimony that he
18 believes he was exposed to asbestos during that work?
19 A. No.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Lets take a couple
21 minutes.
22 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
23 Q. Have you now told me everything you know
24 about the use of asbestos in Building 403 in the East
25 Hanover facility for Sandoz?
72
1 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
2 question.
3 A. To the best of my knowledge.
4 Q. Is that answer yes?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Its no?
7 A. My answer is to the best of my knowledge
8 Ive given the information as accurately as I can.
9 MR. MACHI: We havent gone through
10 this, right?
11 MR. PLACITELLA: I have not gone through
12 that yet.
13 MR. MACHI: This meaning the drawings.
14 Q. In reviewing these drawings, did they
15 provide you any information concerning where
16 asbestos containing products were installed in
17 Building 403?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What information was that?
20 A. The information related to basically the
21 use of vinyl asbestos tile in the architectural
22 drawings.
23 Q. And there was a mention I think on the
24 very first page
25 MR. PLACITELLA: You dont have this
73
1 Bates marked.
2 MR. MACHI: No. If you want anything
3 produced, Ill make a copy and Ill Bates stamp it
4 for you.
5 Q. The very first page here of P 5 mentions
6 vinyl asbestos floor tile?
7 A. Yeah.
8 MR. MACHI: Is there a diagram reference
9 number on there?
10 MR. PLACITELLA: A 2.
11 A. That would be a good way to refer to it.
12 Thats the second architectural drawing in the
13 packet.
14 Q. Other than A 2, was there any other
15 information that youve learned from reviewing these
16 drawings as to where asbestos would have been used in
17 Building 403?
18 A. I cant recall whether or not I saw on
19 the laboratory furniture drawings whether or not they
20 were transite lined. I just cant recall.
21 Q. Would you be able to look at the
22 laboratory furniture drawings and actually compare
23 them with the abatement report to determine or to
24 draw in where the asbestos would have been installed?
25 A. The entire laboratory drawings youre
74
1 referring to?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I could kind of reference the two from
4 the standpoint of the abatement report identifying
5 where certain elbows and certain piping was and
6 relate that onto the drawings.
7 Q. To make this go quicker, can you show me
8 what drawing would best assist you in that regard,
9 because there are many?
10 A. Do you mind if I move it closer?
11 Q. No, please. You can just turn them
12 around.
13 MS. BANEZ: Can I just have the last
14 question and answer read back, please?
15 (Whereupon, the referred to question and
16 answer were read back by the Reporter.)
17 Q. Mr. Dias, you selected drawing P 2, what
18 is P 2?
19 A. P 2 is a plumbing drawing, a mechanical
20 drawing.
21 Q. What does it represent?
22 A. It represents the main distribution of
23 the services in the building to the various different
24 distribution points throughout the building and this
25 would be typical of what you might see on some of the
75
1 other floors.
2 Q. Does it show distribution to
3 laboratories?
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. Im going to have to apologize and come
6 around.
7 A. This point Im referring to right here.
8 Q. The bottom part of the drawing where it
9 says ground floor plan that you pointed to, that is
10 typical of what a laboratory layout looks like?
11 A. Very typical.
12 Q. For all the floors?
13 A. For all the floors.
14 Q. From reading the abatement report and
15 looking at this drawing, are you able to estimate
16 where the asbestos would have been located on this
17 drawing?
18 A. It would have been located predominantly
19 in this area in here.
20 MR. MACHI: Mr. Dias, youre going to
21 have to do your best to identify where exactly youre
22 looking, because when we read the transcript
23 THE WITNESS: Thats fine.
24 Q. Im going to make it a little bit
25 easier. Im going to give you this highlighter and
76
1 ask if you can highlight the area that youre talking
2 about.
3 A. I can describe it pretty well.
4 Q. If you can highlight it it would be
5 great while youre doing it.
6 A. On the ground floor in the center of the
7 building is a series of pipes that run from the north
8 of the building to the south of the building that are
9 a series of pipes that represent various different
10 services to the lab. They represent air, vacuum and
11 distilled water. Im having a hard time identifying
12 the main steam line from this drawing, but it would
13 be in this vicinity of the area between the north and
14 the southern runs of 403 where you would have had
15 pipe that would have been insulated.
16 Q. With asbestos?
17 A. According to the report, yes.
18 Q. Could you draw a line from one end to
19 the other in yellow for the area that youre
20 referring to?
21 A. In general, its in this general
22 vicinity. Although Im not seeing any lines here
23 that are specific to steam, typically these lines,
24 cold water, hot water, vacuum, air, gas, either
25 distilled or deionized water or waste water are
77
1 typically not insulated.
2 Q. And the steam pipe, is this in the
3 hallway?
4 A. Its in the hallway.
5 Q. Between them?
6 A. The labs would be located on either
7 side?
8 Q. These rectangular representations on
9 either side of the hallway, theyre the laboratories?
10 A. That would be the lab. This is
11 typically a typical future lab area. So you can see
12 this is typical. These are the service chases. On
13 either side of the corridor are the service chases
14 that allow the services to move vertically within the
15 building.
16 Q. Could you just put a circle around what
17 you say is a typical lab with this pen and write
18 typical lab?
19 A. (Witness complies.)
20 Q. Okay. Now, could you point out for me
21 in this lab where the countertops would be located
22 that were made of soap stone that were discussed?
23 A. That would be on a different drawing.
24 Q. You cant estimate where that would be?
25 A. No. I would have to go to the record
78
1 that indicates the installation for the furniture.
2 Q. See if you could find that record for
3 me.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: This by the way for the
5 record is P 2.
6 MR. MACHI: Drawing P 2, not exhibit
7 P 2.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Drawing P 2.
9 A. Here would be a typical laboratory.
10 Q. Now were looking at A 14. When you say
11 a typical laboratory, what are you referring to?
12 A. Im referring to this module right here.
13 Q. Lower part of the diagram?
14 A. Yes. Its in A 14. It is the section
15 thats the lowest part of the drawing itself. It
16 shows a series of different laboratory furniture
17 separated by walls.
18 Q. Could you put a circle around so its
19 easier later on what you would consider to be the
20 typical laboratory?
21 A. If you look at this, this is very
22 similar. You could see how they are either mirror
23 images of each other or roughly the same arrangement.
24 Q. How many of these laboratories would be
25 located approximately in Building 403?
79
1 A. I would have to review in detail and
2 count the numbers.
3 Q. Do you have an estimate?
4 A. No.
5 Q. More than ten, less than a hundred, more
6 than a thousand, do you have any estimate at all?
7 A. I would say its probably in the
8 neighborhood of about maybe fifty.
9 Q. This kind of setup would be repeated
10 generally in each laboratory; is that fair?
11 A. This is very typical of a lab designed
12 at that time.
13 Q. What is depicted in this circled area of
14 the typical lab you can tell me?
15 A. You have just a series of benches.
16 These are just benches that would be typically about
17 thirty nine inches in height from the floor, a couple
18 of sinks and then a couple of fume hoods.
19 Q. These fume hoods, are they the
20 structures that we talked about being transite lined?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Can you please just highlight the fume
23 hoods that youre referring to?
24 A. (Witness complies.)
25 Q. We talked about asbestos containing
80
1 countertops, are they depicted on this?
2 A. Theyre not depicted on this.
3 Q. Are there any other asbestos containing
4 areas depicted on this diagram?
5 A. Not on this. This is strictly just the
6 arrangement of the metal furniture.
7 Q. The furniture itself we learned had
8 asbestos inside it, correct?
9 A. Only on cabinetry that was used to store
10 solvents.
11 Q. Where would that be located in this
12 diagram?
13 A. This would be hard to identify, because
14 its based on the model of the furniture from the
15 manufacturer. As you could see, in a typical lab you
16 have a furniture manufacturers model designation
17 number. Each one of these are that way, because they
18 refer to the manufacturers catalog number that was
19 purchased and assembled here onsite. Remember, these
20 are all prefabbed at the factory. They come onsite
21 and literally theyre bolted together on the sides
22 where the metal cabinets are.
23 Q. Do you have in your possession
24 historical catalogs for equipment that you would
25 order for laboratories?
81
1 A. You know, I dont know.
2 Q. Could you check?
3 A. I could check.
4 REQUEST:
5 Q. And these numbers that are on these
6 rectangles, they would correspond to the
7 manufacturers specifications?
8 A. They would correspond to the
9 manufacturers catalog number.
10 MR. MACHI: Can you mark that part of
11 the deposition where the request was made.
12 Q. Is there another drawing that would show
13 where the asbestos containing countertops would be
14 located?
15 A. Yeah. I could look through this
16 drawing is designating the countertops as formica,
17 not as soap stone. So I would have to look for
18 another drawing.
19 Q. Lets leave that aside for a second.
20 Whats depicted in A 14, am I correct, is the first
21 floor of Building 403?
22 A. So that says.
23 Q. And what we see is laboratories or
24 offices on either side of the main corridor, correct?
25 A. Correct.
82
1 Q. I think you told us in the last drawing
2 that the asbestos insulated piping would run up and
3 down the main corridor, correct?
4 A. Right. Thats the corridor that goes
5 from the north to the south.
6 Q. Would that be in this area from here to
7 here?
8 A. Yeah. Youre referring to the corridor
9 that runs north to south that separates the two
10 sections of laboratory.
11 Q. Could you draw with this yellow marker a
12 line from north to south where the
13 asbestos containing pipe covering would be installed
14 in the corridor?
15 A. (Witness complies.)
16 Q. Now, we also discussed that there would
17 be asbestos insulated duct work above a suspended
18 ceiling, correct?
19 A. Uh huh.
20 Q. Where would that be in relation to the
21 circle that you put on this diagram?
22 A. That would be located at the corridor
23 area above the fume hoods.
24 Q. And going straight up?
25 A. Typically, it would run up over into the
83
1 corridor again and/or up and into the chase and all
2 the way up to the building. It depends on whether or
3 not they were what we referred to as ganging the fume
4 hoods, which is matching fume hoods together.
5 Q. So where you have the fume hoods there
6 would be additional asbestos containing products
7 linking into the piping; is that correct?
8 A. Not linking into the piping.
9 Q. Going straight up?
10 A. It would run slightly horizontal into
11 the service chase. The service chase is what
12 separates the corridor from the laboratories. Its
13 where all the utilities including the duct work runs
14 vertical through the building. This allows access to
15 these during the course of a renovation or an
16 addition or a removal, but it wouldnt be connected
17 to the piping.
18 Q. Can you just take this highlighter and
19 just mark where you believe that asbestos containing
20 material would be located?
21 A. Probably here.
22 MR. MACHI: You drew a circle.
23 Q. You drew a circle and you say thats for
24 duct work?
25 A. Thats for duct work.
84
1 Q. Put an arrow there for duct work.
2 A. (Witness complies.)
3 Q. Now, the flooring in the laboratory did
4 we learn was typically asbestos containing flooring?
5 A. Throughout most of this building the
6 report indicates that it was VAT.
7 Q. That would include a typical lab like
8 this?
9 A. It would include a typical lab.
10 Q. Can you please highlight for me in
11 yellow all the areas where the asbestos containing
12 flooring would be located?
13 A. (Witness complies.) It could also go
14 under the furniture, because typically the flooring
15 is installed before the furniture is installed. So
16 Im just highlighting the area around the furniture,
17 but it is most likely that all of the floor was
18 installed before the furniture was installed and
19 thats fairly typical.
20 Q. The material between the laboratories,
21 the walls, what were they made of? Was it wall board
22 or metal or wood or what?
23 A. It was a combination of some wall board,
24 some concrete masonry units and some prefabbed metal
25 panels.
85
1 Q. Do you know whether joint compound was
2 ever used in the construction of the wall board?
3 A. That I dont know.
4 Q. Do you know whether the wall board was
5 ever tested to determine whether it contained
6 asbestos containing joint compound?
7 A. I dont recall seeing that in the
8 report.
9 Q. So you dont know whether it was tested
10 one way or the other?
11 A. No. Like I said, I dont recall whether
12 or not it was present.
13 Q. In this diagram, where would the
14 laboratory countertop typically be?
15 A. It would be the area on top of the
16 cabinetry. So typically in the lab that were
17 referring to, a typical lab, you would have it
18 located along this wall theres a series of one, two,
19 three cabinet unit modules and a sink, in the center
20 aisle which looks like its one more unit, its like
21 four units long and then on the other side where
22 theres now a series of cabinets. Typically, they
23 were on top of the metal cabinets just like you would
24 have in your house.
25 Q. And the countertops we learned you
86
1 treated as asbestos containing materials when you
2 removed it, correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Can you highlight with this highlighter
5 and well mark it where the asbestos containing
6 countertops would have been in this laboratory?
7 A. (Witness complies.)
8 Q. For purposes of the record, youve put a
9 yellow X in the areas where there was
10 asbestos containing countertops, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Just mark asbestos countertops so when
13 somebody goes back and looks at it we know what it
14 is.
15 A. (Witness complies.)
16 Q. In this diagram, how big is the room?
17 A. The room is approximately twenty by
18 twenty five feet.
19 Q. Can you estimate for me in looking at
20 this room how much of the room did not contain
21 asbestos containing material?
22 A. No. I cant estimate.
23 Q. Was it more or less than fifty percent?
24 A. I really cant estimate.
25 Q. Of the surface areas in the room, would
87
1 you agree with me that in the surface areas in the
2 room more than ninety percent of the surface areas
3 contained asbestos?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What surface areas in this room that
6 youve shown me do not contain asbestos?
7 A. The walls, the ceiling, all the metal
8 cabinetry thats exposed, its basically painted
9 steel.
10 Q. Do you know the ceilings do not contain
11 asbestos?
12 A. My knowledge of this building, a lot of
13 the ceiling tile in this building was metal pan. It
14 was not fibrous.
15 Q. But the duct work above the ceiling
16 contained asbestos?
17 A. Only the duct work that serviced the
18 fume hoods.
19 Q. From the nonvertical surfaces in the
20 room, what percentage of the nonvertical surfaces
21 contained asbestos?
22 A. Hard to estimate.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that more than
24 seventy percent of the nonvertical surfaces in this
25 room had asbestos containing material on them?
88
1 A. Again, its hard to estimate.
2 Q. Can you tell me what nonvertical
3 surfaces in this room did not contain asbestos?
4 A. The ceiling.
5 Q. So other than the ceiling, every other
6 nonvertical surface in this laboratory contained some
7 form of asbestos, true?
8 A. What I see is that the only things Im
9 aware of is that the floor materials was a vinyl
10 asbestos tile and the soap stone tops were. What I
11 cant tell you is whether or not this laboratory had
12 soap stone tops or formica. As I said, there was a
13 combination of both soap stone and formica used in
14 this building. So its hard to make an estimate as
15 to whether or not that much horizontal surface really
16 had asbestos containing materials.
17 Q. This setup that youve circled here,
18 that repeats itself approximately fifty times?
19 A. Approximately fifty times.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, youve also been
21 designated as the person most knowledgeable about the
22 use of asbestos in the Ciba Geigy Summit facility,
23 correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you are qualified to give that
89
1 testimony how?
2 A. At the point of acquisition of the
3 merger of Ciba and Sandoz I was assigned to deal with
4 the assets on the Ciba facility. That was in 1997.
5 As part of that program, my team did an extensive due
6 diligence analysis of the site and its facilities
7 that were currently in operation on the Ciba site.
8 Q. When you did your due diligence analysis
9 for both the Sandoz site and the Ciba site, was part
10 of that to identify whether there were environmental
11 hazards related to that site?
12 MR. MACHI: Objection.
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Did those potential environmental
15 hazards include the presence of asbestos containing
16 materials?
17 A. Yes. We completed a survey of asbestos
18 materials onsite.
19 Q. Did you do that for the Ciba Geigy
20 Summit site as well?
21 A. We did it for the Ciba site, yes.
22 Q. How many buildings were at the Ciba site
23 in 1997?
24 A. I would say it was in the neighborhood
25 of about twenty and Im referring to main buildings.
90
1 There are a lot of smaller buildings too.
2 Q. Did you do your due diligence for the
3 presence of asbestos for each and every one of those
4 buildings?
5 A. Each and every one of the main
6 buildings, right.
7 Q. Were reports generated for that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you make an effort in conjunction
10 with your preparation for testimony today to
11 determine what buildings were constructed during the
12 1970s in the Ciba Summit site?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What buildings were constructed during
15 the 1970s at the Ciba Summit site to your
16 recollection?
17 A. To my recollection there were a series
18 of really just one main building which was referred
19 to as a Building G. That was predominantly a
20 mechanic shop with some laboratories above and some
21 offices and then two other small what we refer to as
22 out buildings. One was a small solvent building and
23 the other one was probably a pump house. Its
24 referred to as Building T.
25 Q. Whats the solvent building?
91
1 A. That was just a storage area for waste
2 solvents coming out of the laboratories for proper
3 disposal.
4 Q. When you did your due diligence with
5 respect to those three buildings, did you determine
6 whether those buildings contained any
7 asbestos containing products?
8 A. I believe a few of them did, yes.
9 Q. Did Building G contain asbestos?
10 A. I believe the report did indicate.
11 Q. And the report that youre talking
12 about, did you produce that here today?
13 A. Theres some information that was
14 produced with regard to the materials in Building G.
15 Q. Who prepared the report that youre
16 addressing?
17 A. Im not familiar with the firm who did
18 the analysis. I do know that we commissioned the
19 analysis I believe in 1997 to look at all of the
20 facilities in Summit with respect to asbestos?
21 MR. PLACITELLA: This is a document that
22 was produced by your attorney today. I really
23 havent had time to go through it in detail, but Ill
24 have this marked as P 6.
25 MR. MACHI: Can you identify its Bates
92
1 stamp numbers?
2 MR. PLACITELLA: The Bates stamp
3 numbers that I have for this particular document are
4 336 through 353.
5 (Whereupon, the aforementioned document
6 was marked Plaintiffs Exhibit 6 for identification
7 on this date by the Reporter.)
8 Q. Im going to hand this to you and ask
9 you if you can tell me what it is?
10 A. This would be part of the assessment
11 that was done.
12 Q. That entire document was a portion of
13 the assessment?
14 A. I believe so.
15 Q. And the whole document is where?
16 A. I really dont know.
17 Q. How large is the whole document?
18 A. I dont recall all the extent of the
19 document. Ive only looked at excerpts from the
20 document related to buildings that were constructed
21 in the 70s.
22 Q. Who determined what buildings were
23 constructed in the 70s?
24 A. We have a report that indicates
25 approximately when buildings were constructed. So we
93
1 just referred to the information on the drawings. In
2 fact, with over four million square feet, thats the
3 only way to really manage the information.
4 Q. Who did that for you?
5 A. That would have been done by people
6 within my group who have the record information.
7 Q. Who did it in this case for this
8 deposition?
9 A. To be honest with you, I dont know who
10 was asked upon to produce the information.
11 Q. This document, P 6, is a sum total of
12 all the information in the possession of Novartis
13 concerning the use of asbestos containing products in
14 buildings constructed at the Ciba Summit facility
15 during the 1970s?
16 MR. MACHI: That could be located at
17 this time?
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, thats available
19 now.
20 A. Yeah, whats available now.
21 Q. Thats it?
22 A. Thats it.
23 Q. Did Building G by the way have
24 laboratories in it as well I think you told me?
25 A. Yes. It had some laboratories.
94
1 Q. Were those laboratories similar to the
2 laboratories at the Sandoz facility?
3 A. No. The Sandoz facilities were research
4 laboratories. These were what we referred to as
5 analytical laboratories.
6 Q. Can you tell me from your recollection
7 whether asbestos containing products were found in
8 Building G as part of your due diligence?
9 A. I believe it was.
10 Q. Can you tell me from your recollection
11 whether asbestos containing products were found in
12 Building T?
13 A. I believe so, yes.
14 Q. When was Building T constructed, do you
15 remember?
16 A. No, I dont.
17 Q. I have a note here on Page 345 that says
18 it was constructed around 1975, does that refresh
19 your memory?
20 A. Would have been in the neighborhood of
21 that.
22 Q. Do you know whether in Building T you
23 found asbestos containing products?
24 A. I believe we found some insulation in
25 the piping.
95
1 Q. I want to show you from this exhibit
2 P 6, Bates numbers 351 through 353 and I just want to
3 ask a couple of questions about it. Just glance at
4 it and Ill ask a couple questions.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Can you tell me what this is?
7 A. Looks like some of the analysis that was
8 performed on the piping and the piping insulation.
9 Q. It talks about manufacturers of
10 asbestos containing pipe insulation, correct?
11 MR. MACHI: Youre looking at what
12 document number, Randy, 351?
13 A. 351, 352 and 353, it refers to a Johns
14 Manville. It says the base bid manufacturer used in
15 the design for the specification.
16 Q. Do you see a little bit further down
17 where it says thermabestos?
18 A. It says pipe covering over five hundred
19 degrees Fahrenheit.
20 Q. Now, there is also the name of a company
21 on there on the upper left hand corner, do you see
22 that?
23 A. Upper left hand?
24 Q. Yes. My apologies, on the next page,
25 Page 352, Wigden Abbott Corporation, who is that?
96
1 A. Wigden Abbott was a design build firm,
2 dates back to the 60s and 70s. I just have some
3 general knowledge about the firm.
4 Q. Do you know where theyre located? Are
5 they still around?
6 A. Do I know where theyre located, I dont
7 believe theyre in business anymore.
8 Q. The solvent building, did your due
9 diligence demonstrate that asbestos was used in the
10 construction of the solvent building?
11 A. In some of the piping we found some
12 asbestos.
13 Q. Do you have any information to
14 contradict Mr. DeMayos testimony that he believes he
15 was exposed to asbestos during the construction of
16 Ciba Geigy buildings in Summit, New Jersey, during
17 the 1970s?
18 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
19 question. I think that mischaracterizes his
20 testimony. You can answer. Can you refer him to
21 certain testimony?
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not going to do
23 that now.
24 A. Based on what I read in his testimony I
25 would find it difficult because of the location of
97
1 those buildings. Those buildings arent located
2 he referred to working on a building that was located
3 behind the cafeteria. These buildings are not
4 located behind the cafeteria. In fact, a few of
5 these buildings are quite remote from the cafeteria.
6 Q. What testimony are you referring to?
7 A. What I had read in his testimony.
8 Q. How many transcripts were you given to
9 read?
10 A. I only read the ones that related to the
11 Ciba or Novartis facility.
12 Q. How many transcripts were you given to
13 read, how many physical transcripts?
14 A. I cant tell you the number.
15 Q. Was it more than one?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you read testimony concerning his
18 work at Ciba Summit during the 1970s?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you point to me the physical
21 evidence that you have to show that he was mistaken
22 when he said he was exposed to asbestos while working
23 at Ciba Summit?
24 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
25 question.
98
1 A. No.
2 MR. MACHI: Its been asked and
3 answered.
4 Q. How much asbestos was located in the G
5 building based upon your due diligence?
6 A. I cannot recall.
7 Q. How much was located in the solvent
8 building based upon your due diligence?
9 A. I remember it was a relatively small
10 amount.
11 Q. How about the T building, how much
12 asbestos?
13 A. A relatively small amount.
14 Q. When you say relatively small, what do
15 you mean by that?
16 A. Im referring to the information Ive
17 read or recollect reading indicates it was limited to
18 some piping in some corners of the buildings.
19 Q. What about the G building?
20 A. The building, I do not recall the
21 extent.
22 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the
23 manufacturer or supplier of asbestos used in the G
24 building, the T building or the solvent building?
25 A. No.
99
1 Q. Do you have any knowledge concerning who
2 any of the contractors were involved in the
3 construction of the G building, the T building or the
4 solvent building?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you have any information concerning
7 what, if any, steps were taken by Ciba Geigy to
8 protect people involved in the construction of either
9 the G building, the T building or the N building who
10 may have been exposed to asbestos?
11 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
12 question.
13 A. No.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you want me to break
15 them down? Okay. Ill break them down. I was
16 trying to do them fast.
17 Q. Do you have any information concerning
18 what, if any, steps Ciba Geigy took to protect people
19 working around or near asbestos during the
20 construction of the G building?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
22 question.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have any information what, if
25 any, steps Ciba Geigy took to protect people working
100
1 with or around asbestos during the construction of
2 the solvent building?
3 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
4 question.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you have any information concerning
7 what, if any, steps Ciba Geigy took to protect people
8 working with or around asbestos in the construction
9 of the T building?
10 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
11 question.
12 A. No.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: I would make a request
14 at this time for a complete copy of the due diligence
15 report and not just selected pages. I understand
16 what your position will be, but I want to make my
17 record and if I need to go back and ask more
18 questions, Ill do that.
19 REQUEST:
20 MR. MACHI: Let me just respond to that,
21 because I know you understand what my position is but
22 I want to put it on the record. My position is that
23 the request that was made was for any records
24 pertaining to new construction that took place in the
25 1970s and that is exactly what I provided.
101
1 Q. Were there any major renovations done to
2 any buildings during the 1970s where asbestos was
3 used based upon your due diligence?
4 A. I have no knowledge of it.
5 Q. Do you know of any significant
6 renovations to any buildings at the Ciba Summit site
7 during the 1970s?
8 A. I have no knowledge of it.
9 Q. To your knowledge, are these the only
10 three buildings that we just discussed, T, N and G,
11 where construction was done during the 1970s at Ciba
12 Summit?
13 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you read that back?
15 (Whereupon, the referred to question was
16 read back by the Reporter.)
17 A. As far as new buildings, yes, based on
18 the information.
19 Q. Was there any major renovations done?
20 A. I would not know that.
21 Q. You keep saying as far as you know new
22 construction, was there any other installation of
23 asbestos containing products to your knowledge at
24 Ciba Geigy in Summit during the 1970s other than
25 these three buildings?
102
1 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of the
2 question.
3 A. My knowledge of asbestos in the building
4 is strictly limited to the survey report that we did.
5 Records regarding previous records on the Summit site
6 were not existent when we merged as a company.
7 Q. Is there anybody to your knowledge who
8 currently works for Novartis who was present during
9 the construction of any buildings on the Novartis
10 site during the 1970s?
11 MR. MACHI: The Summit site?
12 MR. PLACITELLA: The Ciba site, sorry.
13 A. No.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: What Im going to do is
15 take two minutes. I think Im almost done.
16 MR. SUSS: While were waiting, could I
17 ask a couple questions, Bob?
18 MR. MACHI: Sure.
19
20 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SUSS:
21
22 Q. My name is Ron Suss. I represent some
23 codefendants in the case and I wanted to ask you,
24 sir, other than your testimony that you have given us
25 today regarding the lab furniture which may have been
103
1 supplied by Hamilton Fisher to Building 403, do you
2 have any knowledge of who manufactured any of the
3 asbestos containing materials which may have been
4 installed in that building in the 1960s?
5 A. No. We have no records. I have no
6 knowledge.
7 Q. Youve anticipated my next question. To
8 your knowledge, are there any records which would
9 reflect the manufacturer of asbestos containing
10 materials which were installed in Building 403 in the
11 1960s?
12 A. The only records that would exist that
13 date back to the 60s are the set of drawings we
14 referred to earlier.
15 Q. Would your responses be the same with
16 regard to anyone who may have supplied
17 asbestos containing materials which would have been
18 installed in Building 403 in the 1960s?
19 A. As far as the installer?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, the answer would be the same.
22 Q. To your knowledge, would it be correct
23 that Mr. Kings department also would have no records
24 regarding the manufacturers or suppliers of
25 asbestos containing materials which would have been
104
1 installed in Building 403 in the 1960s?
2 A. Correct. Records pertaining to
3 facilities are retained by my department in archives.
4 MR. SUSS: Thank you.
5
6 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. BANEZ:
7
8 Q. Just so Im clear, do you know whether
9 or not there are any records available in Novartiss
10 possession relating to either the Ciba Geigy or
11 Building 403 which relates to the identity of the
12 contractors that were employed at either site in the
13 60s and in the 70s?
14 A. Yeah. The typical situation as we
15 retain our project files, which would include the
16 contracts, the vendor selections, all that pertinent
17 information, for a period over only seven to eight
18 years after completion of construction. At that
19 point, they are literally destroyed. The only
20 records we keep are the actual drawings from the
21 installation for future reference. In the Summit
22 site its slightly different. They did not retain
23 records to any great extent and with the sale of the
24 site to Schering all of the drawings that we were
25 able to obtain were handed over to Schering Plough.
105
1 Q. When was that?
2 A. That I believe was in the period between
3 2001 and 2003. I cant be exact, because we were
4 phased out. They phased in. So it was just the way
5 the contracts were written on us exiting the site.
6 Q. When you say the sale to Schering, what
7 was sold to Schering?
8 A. Schering purchased the entire site in
9 Summit which was the previous Ciba.
10 Q. The former?
11 A. Yes, the former Ciba Geigy site.
12 Q. Just so I get a clear answer to my
13 question, to your knowledge there are no documents
14 which identify the contractors that worked at either
15 the Ciba Geigy site or
16 A. To my knowledge, no.
17 Q. or the Sandoz site; is that correct?
18 A. To my knowledge, no.
19 Q. So that is correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. BANEZ: Thank you.
22
23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:
24
25 MR. PLACITELLA: I just have to identify
106
1 some stuff. I want to tell you the pages I would
2 like copies of. A copy of A 2 in addition to the
3 ones weve gone through.
4 MR. MACHI: Im going to have to wait
5 until I get the transcript.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand. A 8,
7 A 9, HV 2. I want to just ask you a couple
8 questions.
9 Q. I have in front of me HV 2, can you tell
10 me what this represents?
11 A. This is a duct layout drawing.
12 Q. Concerning what area of the plant?
13 A. This looks like the laboratories on the
14 lower level of the building.
15 Q. So this would have been an overlay of
16 the laboratory area that we looked at before?
17 A. Right. Theyre being referenced from
18 the mechanical room which is towards the top of the
19 drawing section. The laboratories would be in the
20 bottom section.
21 Q. Can you tell me from looking at this
22 duct work and in conjunction with the abatement
23 report what of the duct work here would have
24 contained asbestos?
25 A. I cannot tell you from just looking at
107
1 the duct work layout. You would have to look at the
2 specification for each one of the runs that are
3 identified on the drawings. Its extremely
4 difficult.
5 Q. And you dont have that specification?
6 A. I dont have that specification.
7 Q. And you cant tell by looking at the
8 abatement report?
9 A. No.
10 MR. PLACITELLA: Bob, the ones that are
11 colored which were P 2 and A 14, somehow
12 technologically well figure it out, I want the color
13 copies of this or give me the original. We can get
14 it color scanned or something, but I want the color
15 copies of these two particular. The other ones I
16 dont really care about, but the ones that were
17 colored on thats the request Im making.
18 REQUEST:
19 MR. MACHI: Anybody else? I think were
20 done.
21 (The deposition was adjourned at 3:52 p.m.)
22
23
24
25
108
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, SANDRA VAN BLARCOM, Notary Public
4 and Shorthand Reporter of the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that prior to the
6 commencement of the examination
7 RANDAL DIAS
8 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth,
9 the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the
11 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript
12 of the testimony as taken stenographically
13 by and before me at the time, place and on
14 the date hereinbefore set forth.
15 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
16 a relative of nor employee nor attorney nor
17 counsel for any of the parties to this
18 action, and that I am neither a relative
19 nor employee of such attorney or counsel,
20 and that I am not financially interested in
21 the action.
22
23 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
