1
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-3458-09
———————————:
3 JOYCE BRADLEY, : VIDEOTAPE
Plaintiff, : DEPOSITION UPON
4 : ORAL EXAMINATION
vs. : OF
5 : LLOYD C. AMBLER
3M COMPANY, et als., : VOLUME 1
6 Defendants. :
———————————:
7 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
8 DOCKET NO. L-1628-09
———————————:
9 GARY R. CHAVAN and JULIE H. :
CHAVAN, Husband and wife, :
10 Plaintiffs, :
:
11 vs. :
:
12 3M COMPANY, et als., :
Defendants. :
13 ———————————:
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
14 LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-3465-09
15 ———————————:
PATRICIA DUGGAN and JOHN J. :
16 DUGGAN, Husband and wife, :
Plaintiffs, :
17 :
vs. :
18 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
19 Defendants. :
———————————:
20
21
22
23 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC.
Certified Shorthand Reporters & Videographers
7 Elm Street
24 Westfield, New Jersey 07090
Phone: (908) 789-2000
25 Fax: (908) 789-2007

2
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-3454-09
———————————:
3 ROCCO ANGELO FORTE and JANICE :
FORTE, Husband and wife, :
4 Plaintiffs, :
:
5 vs. :
:
6 3M COMPANY, et als., :
Defendants. :
7 ———————————:
8
9
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
10 LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-8360-06
11 ———————————-:
MICHAEL C. GERDING, as Executor of:
12 the Estate of Augustus C. Gerding,:
Plaintiff, :
13 :
vs. :
14 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
15 Defendants. :
———————————-:
16
17
18 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
19 DOCKET NO. L-5838-06
———————————-:
20 CHARLES F. GLOCK and IRENE GLOCK, :
Plaintiffs, :
21 :
vs. :
22 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
23 :
Defendants. :
24 ———————————-:
25

3
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-3463-09
———————————-:
3 PAUL HINSENKAMP, :
Plaintiff, :
4 :
vs. :
5 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
6 Defendants. :
———————————-:
7
8
9
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
10 LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-2994-09
11 ———————————-:
JAMES JOHNSON and MARY JOHNSON, :
12 Husband and wife, :
Plaintiffs, :
13 :
vs. :
14 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
15 Defendants. :
———————————-:
16
17
18
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
19 LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-81-08
20 ———————————-:
PATRICIA A. SNYDER, :
21 Plaintiff, :
:
22 vs. :
:
23 3M COMPANY, et als., :
Defendants. :
24 ———————————-:
25

4
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-312-08
———————————-:
3 GLADYS THOMAS, Individually and :
as Executrix of the Estate of :
4 JOHN A. THOMAS, SR., :
Plaintiff, :
5 :
vs. :
6 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
7 Defendants. :
———————————-:
8
9
10
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
11 LAW DIVISION – MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-9455-06
12 ———————————-:
CHARLES H. WECKER and ANN WECKER, :
13 Husband and wife, :
Plaintiffs, :
14 :
vs. :
15 :
3M COMPANY, et als., :
16 Defendants. :
———————————-:
17
18 TRANSCRIPT of testimony as taken by and
19 before Sean M. Fallon, a Certified Court Reporter
20 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, at the
21 offices of COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C., Two
22 Commerce Square, 2001 Market Street, Suite 2900,
23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, August 27,
24 2009, commencing at 10:03 oclock in the forenoon.
25

5
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.
3 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ.
4 127 Maple Avenue
5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
6 (732) 747-9003
7 cplacitella@cprlaw.com
8 Attorneys for Plaintiffs
9
10 CARUSO, POPE, EDELL, PICINI, P.C.
11 BY: MARC Z. EDELL, ESQ.
12 60 Route 46 East
13 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
14 (973) 667-6000
15 medell@carusopope.com
16 -and-
17 GOODWIN PROCTER, LLP
18 BY: ELIZABETH RUNYAN GEISE, ESQ.
19 901 New York Avenue, N.W.
20 Washington, DC 20001
21 (202) 346-4000
22 egeise@goodwinprocter.com
23 Attorneys for Defendant, CertainTeed
24 Corporation, and the Witness
25

6
1 LAVIN, ONEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DiSIPIO
2 BY: BASIL A. DiSIPIO, ESQ.
3 CAROLYN L. McCORMACK, ESQ.
4 190 North Independence Mall West
5 Suite 500
6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106
7 (215) 627-0303
8 bdisipio@lavin-law.com
9 Attorneys for Defendants, 3M Company and
10 International Business Machines
11 (Chavan & Johnson matters)
12
13 REILLY, JANICZEK & McDEVITT, P.C.
14 BY: ZACHARY D. CREGAR, ESQ.
15 Kevon Office Center
16 2500 McClellan Boulevard, Suite 240
17 Merchantville, New Jersey 08109
18 (856) 317-7180
19 zcregar@rjm-law.com
20 Attorneys for Defendant,
21 Cleaver-Brooks, Inc.
22
23
24
25

7
1 HARDIN, KUNDLA, McKEON & POLETTO, P.A.
2 BY: GARY M. SARNO, ESQ.
3 673 Morris Avenue
4 Springfield, New Jersey 07081
5 (973) 912-5222
6 gsarno@hkmpp.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Calon Insulation
8
9 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C.
10 BY: MELISSA ARMBRISTER, ESQ.
11 Two Penn Center Plaza
12 15th and JFK Boulevard, Suite 518
13 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
14 (215) 557-1990
15 Attorneys for Defendants, Federated Dept.
16 Stores/Macys, Raritan Supply, DAP,
17 Hollingsworth & Vose, Graybar Electrical,
18 Hubbell Lighting and Horizon
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN
2 BY: JEANINE D. CLARK, ESQ.
3 100 Century Parkway, Suite 200
4 Mount Laurel, New Jersey 08054
5 (856) 727-6034
6 jclark@margolisedelstein.com
7 Attorneys for Defendants, John Crane and
8 Karnak
9
10 MARKS, ONEILL, OBRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C.
11 BY: PAUL J. SMYTH, ESQ.
12 Cooper River West
13 6981 North Park Drive, Suite 300
14 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08109
15 (856) 663-4300
16 psmyth@mooclaw.com
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Georgia Pacific
18
19 KENT & McBRIDE, P.C.
20 BY: JEFFREY W. McDONNELL, ESQ.
21 1617 John F. Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1200
22 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
23 (215) 568-1800
24 jmmcdonnell@kentmcbride.com
25 Attorneys for Defendant, MSA

9
1 MORGAN MELHUISH ABRUTYN
2 BY: ROBERT J. MACHI, ESQ.
3 651 West Mount Pleasant Avenue, Suite 200
4 Livingston, New Jersey 07039
5 (973) 994-2500
6 rmachi@morganlawfirm.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Novartis
8
9 GOLDFEIN and JOSEPH
10 BY: LAWRENCE E. CURRIER, ESQ.
11 1880 John F. Kennedy Boulevard, 20th Floor
12 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
13 (215) 979-8218
14 lcurrier@goldfeinlaw.com
15 Attorneys for Defendants, Asbestos
16 Corporation Limited and Bell Asbestos Mines,
17 Ltd.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 TIERNEY LAW OFFICES
2 BY: TODD L. ARNO, ESQ.
3 1125 Land Title Building
4 100 South Broad Street
5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19110
6 (215) 790-2400
7 tarno@tierneylawoffices.com
8 Attorneys for Defendants, A.J. Friedman and
9 Elizabeth Industrial Supply
10
11 RILEY, HEWITT, WITTE & ROMANO
12 BY: MARY KATE COLEMAN, ESQ.
13 650 Washington Road, Suite 300
14 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228
15 (412) 341-9300
16 mkcoleman@rhwrlaw.com
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Genuine Parts
18 Company (Chavan)
19 (Via conference call)
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 HARRIS BEACH, PLLC
2 BY: JODIE GROSS PARIS, ESQ.
3 100 Wall Street
4 New York, New York 10005
5 (212) 313-5416
6 jgross@harrisbeach.com
7 Attorneys for Defendants, Kentile Floors and
8 Progress Lighting
9 (Via conference call)
10
11 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP
12 BY: CHRISTOPHER ABATEMARCO, ESQ.
13 85 Livingston Avenue
14 Roseland, New Jersey 07068
15 (973) 535-0500
16 cabatemarco@connellfoley.com
17 Attorneys for Defendants, The Frank A.
18 McBride Company (Chavan); Superior Welding
19 Supply, Inc. (Thomas)
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 SCHUBERT, BELLWOAR, CAHILL & QUINN
2 BY: KEVIN J. QUINN, ESQ.
3 Two Penn Center
4 1500 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
5 Suite 1400
6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
7 (215) 587-0137
8 Attorneys for Defendant,
9 John F. Scanlan, Inc.
10 (Via conference call)
11
12 SILVERSTEIN & STERN, LLP
13 BY: ALAN ROBERTS, ESQ.
14 40 Fulton Street, 7th Floor
15 New York, New York 10038
16 (212) 385-1444
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Siemens Energy and
18 Automation, Incorporated
19 (Via conference call)
20
21
22
23
24
25

13
1 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, EDELMAN & DICKER, LLP
2 BY: JOSEPH A. GALLO, ESQ.
3 33 Washington Street
4 Newark, New Jersey 07102-3017
5 (973) 735-5994
6 joseph.gallo@wilsonelser.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Ductmate
8 Industries, Inc. (Gerding and Thomas)
9 (Via conference call)
10
11 GIBBONS, P.C.
12 BY: TODD D. ROTH, ESQ.
13 One Gateway Center
14 Newark, New Jersey 07102
15 (973) 596-4463
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Honeywell
17 (Via conference call)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, P.C.
2 BY: JUSTIN C. HALLBERG, ESQ.
3 100 Southgate Parkway
4 Morristown, New Jersey 07962-1997
5 (973) 889-4048
6 jchallberg@pbnlaw.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant,
8 Warner-Lambert Co., LLC
9 (Via conference call)
10
11 OTOOLE, FERNANDEZ, WEINER, VAN LIEU, LLC
12 BY: JOHN B. MONAHAN, ESQ.
13 60 Pompton Avenue
14 Verona, New Jersey 07044
15 (973) 239-5700
16 jmonahan@ofwvlaw.com
17 Attorneys for Defendants, Gould and Clark
18 Reliance
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

15
1 MAYFIELD, TURNER, OMARA, DONNELLY & McBRIDE
2 BY: KAREN A. MASCIOLI, ESQ.
3 2201 Route 38, Suite 300
4 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002
5 (856) 667-2600
6 kmascioli@mayfieldturner.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Utica Boilers
8 (Via conference call)
9
10 McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP
11 BY: DANIEL MALONEY, JR., ESQ.
12 1300 Mt. Kemble Avenue
13 Morristown, New Jersey 07962-2075
14 (973) 425-4239
15 dmaloney@mdmc-law.com
16 Attorneys for Defendants, Eaton Corp.,
17 Allen-Bradley, A.O. Smith, and Mobil
18 (Via conference call)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 KELLEY, JASONS, McGOWAN, SPINELLI & HANNA, LLP
2 BY: CHRISTINA M. RIDEOUT, ESQ.
3 Two Liberty Place
4 50 South 16th Street, Suite 1900
5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
6 (215) 854-0658
7 crideout@kjmsh.com
8 Attorneys for Defendants, Square D (Chavan);
9 FMC (Johnson)
10
11 REED SMITH, LLP
12 BY: CRAIG BLAU, ESQ.
13 599 Lexington Avenue
14 New York, New York 10022
15 (212) 521-5400
16 cblau@reedsmith.com
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Pfaudler, Inc.
18 (Chavan)
19 (Via conference call)
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 HOFHEIMER GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP
2 BY: MARINA I. GLAVIN, ESQ.
3 530 Fifth Avenue
4 New York, New York 10036
5 (212) 897-7914
6 mglavin@hgg.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American
8 Corporation
9 (Via conference call)
10
11 BUDD LARNER, P.C.
12 BY: TERRENCE W. CAMP, ESQ.
13 150 JFK Parkway
14 Short Hills, New Jersey 07078
15 (973) 379-4800
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Taubman Co., Inc.
17 (Via conference call)
18
19 MARON, MARVEL, BRADLEY & ANDERSON, P.A.
20 BY: MERYL J. TOPCHIK, ESQ.
21 63 Main Street, Suite 203
22 Flemington, New Jersey 08822
23 (908) 237-5200
24 mjt@maronmarvel.com
25 Attorneys for Defendant, Industrial Holdings

18
1 MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER, COLEMAN & GOGGIN
2 BY: NADIRA K. KIRKLAND, ESQ.
3 Woodland Falls Corporate Park
4 200 Lake Drive East, Suite 300
5 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002
6 (856) 414-6072
7 nkkirkland@mdwcg.com
8 Attorneys for Defendants, Pep Boys (Snyder);
9 Kaiser Gypsum Company, Inc. (Johnson and
10 Thomas)
11 (Via conference call)
12
13 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS
14 BY: APRIL GLOGOWER, ESQ.
15 40 Paterson Street
16 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903
17 (732) 545-4717
18 aglogower@hoaglandlongo.com
19 Attorneys for Defendant, Borg Warner
20 (Via conference call)
21
22
23
24
25

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1 GARRITY, GRAHAM, MURPHY, GAROFALO & FLINN
2 BY: IZABELL LEMKHEN, ESQ.
3 One Lackawanna Plaza
4 Montclair, New Jersey 07042
5 (973) 509-7500
6 il@garritygraham.com
7 Attorneys for Defendant, State Insulation
8 (Via conference call)
9
10 SCHNADER, HARRISON, SEGAL & LEWIS LLP
11 BY: ALLISON FIHMA, ESQ.
12 140 Broadway, Suite 3100
13 New York, New York 10005
14 (212) 973-8161
15 afihma@schnader.com
16 Attorneys for Defendant, E&B Mill Supply
17 (Via conference call)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 CAPEHART & SCATCHARD, P.A.
2 BY: ROBERT A. HICKEN, ESQ.
3 Laurel Corporate Center, Suite 300 S
4 8000 Midlantic Drive
5 Mount Laurel, New Jersey 08054
6 (856) 234-6800
7 rhicken@capehart.com
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Kennedy Culvert
9 (Snyder)
10 (Via conference call)
11
12 HACK, PIRO, ODAY, MERKLINGER,
13 WALLACE & McKENNA
14 BY: ERIN BURKE CIRELLI, ESQ.
15 30 Columbia Turnpike
16 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932
17 (973) 301-6500
18 ecirelli@hpomlaw.com
19 Attorneys for Defendant, Johansen Company
20 (Via conference call)
21
22
23
24
25

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1 MALOOF, LEBOWITZ, CONNAHAN & OLESKE, P.C.
2 BY: DENNIS J. LOFFREDO, ESQ.
3 127 Main Street
4 Chatham, New Jersey 07928
5 (973) 635-9200
6 Attorneys for Defendants, Oldcastle Precast,
7 Inc. and Kerr Concrete Pipe Co.
8 (Via conference call)
9
10
11 A L S O P R E S E N T:
12
13 Gerard J. Genna, Videographer
14 New Jersey Certified Legal Videography
15
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25

22
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS PAGE
3 LLOYD AMBLER
4 By Mr. Placitella 24
5
E X H I B I T S
6
NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
7
Ambler 1 Notice of Deposition, Carner case 24
8
Ambler 2 Notice of Deposition 24
9
Ambler 3 Notice of Deposition 24
10
Ambler 4 CertainTeed Air Duct Brochure 71
11
Ambler 5 Letter July 28, 2009, 77
12 Edell to Placitella
13 Ambler 6 Answers to Interrogatories 92
14 Ambler 7 Minutes, Asbestos Textile 145
Institutes Air Hygiene and
15 Manufacturing Committee,
June 8, 1961
16
Ambler 8 Deposition Transcript 151
17
Ambler 9 Document dated November 16, 1964 153
18
Ambler 10 Memo, November 3rd, 1964 188
19
Ambler 11 Minutes, Oct. 10, 1967, 201
20 Occupational Health and Safety
Committee of the National
21 Insulation Manufacturers
Association
22
Ambler 12 Document 203
23
Ambler 13 Minutes, Nov. 14, 1968, Health 219
24 and Safety Council of the
Asbestos-Cement Products
25 Association

23
1 Ambler 14 Draft Booklet, For Handling and 224
Applying Asbestos-Cement
2
Ambler 15 Document 232
3
Ambler 16 Letter, December 10, 1969 242
4
Ambler 17 1970 version, Recommended Practices 256
5 For Fabricating and Handling
Asbestos-Cement Products
6
Ambler 18 Minutes, Seventh Meeting of the 258
7 Health and Safety Council, ACPA
May 19, 1970
8
Ambler 19 Installation Guide 264
9
Ambler 20 Recommended Work Practices For 277
10 Asbestos-Cement Pipe
11
12 REQUESTS FOR PRODUCTION
13 PAGE LINE
14 60 10
62 7
15 143 6
16
DIRECTIONS TO NOT ANSWER
17
PAGE LINE
18
41 17
19
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22
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24
25

24
1 (Exhibits Ambler 1, Ambler 2 and
2 Ambler 3 are marked for identification.)
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Todays deposition
4 will be video recorded. The microphones are live
5 and the camera will continue to run throughout the
6 entire deposition as long as the deposition is
7 continuing on the record.
8 We are now on the record in the
9 matter of the named plaintiffs versus 3M Companies,
10 et al. Todays date is August 27, 2009. The time
11 is approximately 10:05 a.m. There are various
12 docket numbers for this case.
13 This is the video-recorded deposition
14 of Lloyd Ambler being held at Cohen, Placitella &
15 Roth in Philadelphia. Im the camera operator,
16 Gerard Genna, from New Jersey Certified Legal
17 Videography. The court reporter is Sean Fallon from
18 Brody Deposition Services. Appearances will be
19 noted in the transcript.
20 Please administer the oath.
21 LLOYD AMBLER, after having been first
22 duly sworn, is examined and testifies as follows:
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ambler. How are

25
1 you?
2 A. Im fine. How are you?
3 Q. Good.
4 I know youve had your deposition
5 taken before. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And my research indicated somewhere
8 between 30 and 40 times. Is that accurate?
9 A. No. Its closer to 70 or 80 times.
10 Q. Seventy or 80. So, if I only read 40
11 transcripts, I have another 40 to go?
12 A. I –
13 Q. Okay.
14 So, is it fair to say, then, you are
15 familiar with the rules of a deposition and I dont
16 need to go over them with you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You are — currently reside where?
19 A. Furlong, Pennsylvania.
20 Q. How long have you resided there?
21 A. Approximately 35 years.
22 Q. And your current age is what?
23 A. Sixty-nine.
24 Q. Your education is as a civil
25 engineer?

26
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you are a former employee of the
3 CertainTeed Corporation, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There is a burning question among
6 plaintiffs lawyers around the country that no one
7 has ever asked you, and that is, does the name
8 Ambler have any relation to the town where
9 CertainTeed had its factory?
10 A. It depends on who you speak with.
11 There could be a distant relation. I mean, the town
12 was named after a specific young lady back in — I
13 dont know when — back in the early 1900s.
14 Q. Is that an ancestor of yours?
15 A. Depends who you speak to.
16 Q. Does that mean within your family,
17 sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Somebody may or may not own up to it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Youve been produced today for a
22 deposition in response to a number of Notices, so we
23 have a lot of material to cover, so what Ive had
24 marked as P-1, 2 and 3 are the Deposition Notices
25 themselves.

27
1 Ill ask you to take a look at P-1.
2 P-1 is the Deposition Notice in the Kenneth Carner
3 case.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it asks for the person the most
7 knowledge concerning various topics.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And there are 15 different topics.
11 Have you seen this Notice before today?
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. Can you tell me — let me ask –
14 maybe I can cut it short this way.
15 Mr. Edell, is my understanding
16 correct that Mr. Ambler is being produced as the
17 person with the most knowledge on behalf of
18 CertainTeed with respect to each and every one of
19 those paragraphs — requested paragraphs?
20 MR. EDELL: He is being produced as
21 the corporate representative with respect to the
22 enumerated paragraphs, correct.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
24 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
25 Q. And paragraph — could you go to

28
1 Exhibit Number 2, please. Exhibit Number 2 is a
2 Deposition Notice taken in the Bradley, Chavan,
3 Duggan, Forte, Gerding, Glock, Hinsenkamp, Johnson,
4 Snyder, Thomas and Wecker cases.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the — this Deposition Notice
8 asks CertainTeed to produce a representative with
9 the most knowledge concerning CertainTeeds
10 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos and
11 what CertainTeed did in response to protect
12 consumers from exposure to asbestos while working
13 with or around CertainTeed asbestos-containing
14 products.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that you, sir?
18 A. They put me up to answer those
19 questions, yes, sir.
20 MR. EDELL: With specific reference
21 to asbestos-cement pipe.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, the Notice is
23 not limited to asbestos-cement pipe.
24 MR. EDELL: Thats correct.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: So there is another

29
1 witness for the — any other product that –
2 MR. EDELL: Should, at the end of the
3 deposition, you believe that another witness is
4 necessary, wed be happy to discuss that with you.
5 I dont think its going to be necessary.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not sure how to
7 proceed on those grounds. Is he the person with the
8 most knowledge concerning asbestos-cement products
9 in general?
10 MR. EDELL: I would say, not
11 asbestos-cement siding.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, thats an
13 issue in some of these cases, and this is the first
14 time I was told –
15 MR. EDELL: It may be, and we may
16 have to produce another witness. Mr. Blakenger, as
17 I understand it, has been produced to your office, I
18 believe, on that issue.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Different product.
20 MR. EDELL: Siding.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, well get to
22 it. Its a different product; its not siding. And
23 there is also — also involved the sale of asbestos
24 fiber. Is he knowledgeable about sales of asbestos
25 fiber in the Johns-Manville claim?

30
1 MR. EDELL: There — he has
2 information regarding that subject, but there is no
3 one who has that particular knowledge other than
4 that which is reflected in documents.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: So, then, he would
6 be the person with the most knowledge?
7 MR. EDELL: No, not necessarily, but
8 he does have knowledge.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, who would be
10 the person you would produce with knowledge –
11 MR. EDELL: Hes here to testify on
12 behalf of the corporation regarding that subject.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: So, then, he would
14 be the person responsive to this Notice about the
15 most knowledge as it relates to the sale of asbestos
16 fiber? Thats what Im trying to get at.
17 MR. EDELL: Yes.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
19 The next Notice captioned in the same
20 case is — asks for the representative of
21 CertainTeed with the most knowledge of the sale of
22 asbestos fiber, asbestos-containing pipe, and
23 asbestos-containing siding in the States of New
24 Jersey and Pennsylvania.
25 Is he responsive to this Notice?

31
1 MR. EDELL: As to asbestos fiber, I
2 believe so; with respect to pipe, I know so; and,
3 with respect to siding, I know that he is not.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
5 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
6 Q. Mr. Ambler, Notice Number 3 in front
7 of you asks that you bring with you today eight
8 different categories of documents.
9 Can you look at Notice Number 3 and
10 tell me whether youve brought those documents with
11 you?
12 MR. EDELL: He — just to cut things
13 short a little bit, he has not brought any documents
14 with him today. The documents that we may — weve
15 indicated to you that the documents responsive to
16 the document requests are available for your
17 inspection at the document repository and you have
18 not chosen — youve chosen not to avail yourself of
19 our offer to look at those documents.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: For the record, Ive
21 been told, in response to this particular Notice,
22 that I should come to the repository before the
23 deposition and look at them?
24 MR. EDELL: I believe so.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont think so.

32
1 MR. EDELL: I believe so.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Well get there. I
3 dont think so.
4 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
5 Q. Okay.
6 Mr. Ambler, what have you done today
7 to investigate what was requested, in terms of
8 subject matter in this deposition — these
9 Deposition Notices?
10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
11 the question. Insofar as his response, I direct him
12 to respond only to information that is not
13 privileged.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Of course.
15 MR. EDELL: Of course to you and me,
16 but he may not know that.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Hes been deposed 80
18 times, Im sure hes heard it once or twice.
19 MR. EDELL: No. I might forget, too.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. Other than conversations with your
22 counsel, sir, tell me — can you tell me what youve
23 done to prepare yourself and investigate the matters
24 responsive to these Deposition Notices that are in
25 front of you?

33
1 A. The only thing Ive done, Ive
2 reviewed Mr. Carners deposition, plus the one
3 co-worker; and I also reviewed Mr. Gerdings sons
4 depositions and the two co-workers.
5 Q. So, as it relates to the Bradley
6 case, youve reviewed nothing?
7 A. Thats correct, yes.
8 Q. And, as it relates to the Chavan
9 case, youve reviewed nothing?
10 MR. EDELL: Just so we are clear,
11 Chris, this is — again, we are talking about
12 documents that are not and were not privileged?
13 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont know what –
14 MR. EDELL: Well, documents that are
15 shown to the witness in preparation for the
16 deposition are subject to the attorney work product
17 privilege, as you well know.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I dont well
19 know that, but well get to that.
20 MR. EDELL: I can give you Spark
21 versus Peel, which is a Third Circuit opinion –
22 MR. PLACITELLA: This is a State
23 case, isnt it?
24 MR. EDELL: Its a Federal Third
25 Circuit case.

34
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats okay. Is it
2 a New Jersey case?
3 MR. EDELL: Yes, it is.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: In New Jersey State
5 court?
6 MR. EDELL: No.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: I didnt think so,
8 so you can have it back.
9 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
10 Q. So, sir, can you tell me, as it
11 relates to the Chavan case, what did you review?
12 MR. EDELL: And, again, Im going to
13 direct the witness not to identify any documents
14 that were given to him in preparation for the
15 deposition by any of his counsel.
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. Sir, did you review CertainTeed
18 corporate records or documents in preparation for
19 todays deposition?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Did you review any — tell me what
22 you did review.
23 A. Just what I just said, sir. I
24 reviewed the depositions concerning the Carner case
25 and also depositions concerning the Gerding case.

35
1 Q. And nothing else?
2 A. Nothing else.
3 Q. And what did you do to prepare
4 yourself for this deposition other than having
5 conversations with your counsel?
6 A. Just reviewing those depositions and
7 having conversations with the lawyers.
8 Q. So that we are clear, the only
9 documents you reviewed in preparation for todays
10 deposition were depositions of a couple of
11 plaintiffs and co-workers?
12 MR. EDELL: Just so we are clear, in
13 terms of the definition of review, I want to make
14 sure that the witness understands that includes his
15 discussions with us of any documents that — that we
16 produced and discussed with him in anticipation of
17 the deposition.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Frankly, I dont
19 understand what that means. I asked him
20 specifically what he looked at.
21 MR. EDELL: Im just telling you –
22 MR. PLACITELLA: He said he only
23 looked at three things. He only looked at
24 transcripts. If he looked at other things –
25 MR. EDELL: I just dont want you to

36
1 be misled, Chris. Thats all.
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q. Did you look at anything besides
4 transcripts?
5 A. I had a — I had a meeting with three
6 attorneys — or two attorneys and a paralegal, and
7 they had some documents that were exhibits from
8 other cases and I looked at those, yes.
9 Q. So you looked at exhibits that were
10 in other depositions you have given?
11 A. I cant say that they were included
12 in the depositions I gave. I cant — I cant
13 recall that. I just looked at documents that they
14 had.
15 Q. Were they documents that were — that
16 you had seen before?
17 A. Most of them I had, yes.
18 Q. And you saw those in the context of
19 depositions?
20 A. Yes. I didnt see any of them when I
21 was an employee of CertainTeed.
22 Q. So the documents that you saw in
23 preparation for this deposition were documents that
24 you had seen in connection with other depositions
25 that you have given, correct?

37
1 A. For the most part thats correct,
2 yes.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: And your position
4 still is that Im not entitled to know those
5 documents, Mr. Edell?
6 MR. EDELL: Yes.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Well, well
8 let the judge decide.
9 MR. EDELL: Absolutely.
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q. Did you speak to any witnesses as
12 part of your investigation?
13 A. No. The only conversations I had
14 were with the attorneys.
15 Q. Did you look at any documents related
16 to any plaintiffs other than the transcripts that
17 youve mentioned?
18 A. No. Thats the only thing.
19 Q. Did you speak to any current or
20 former employees of CertainTeed?
21 A. Concerning these cases?
22 Q. In preparation for todays
23 deposition.
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Did you ask to see any documents in

38
1 preparation for todays deposition?
2 A. Specifically, no, I did not.
3 Q. Do you have an understanding of the
4 areas that you are here to testify about?
5 A. I believe I do.
6 Q. And what is that?
7 A. Answer any questions you have to the
8 best of my knowledge.
9 Q. On what subject matters?
10 A. Concerning CertainTeed and
11 asbestos-cement pipe and anything in particular to
12 these two cases.
13 Q. Well, you understand, sir, you are
14 being deposed not in two cases; but in one, two,
15 three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine — nine
16 cases; not two, correct?
17 A. It is my understanding that I am
18 here, sir, to answer any questions you have
19 concerning asbestos-cement pipe, and the only thing
20 I reviewed for this deposition were those two cases.
21 Q. So, in the other seven cases you
22 reviewed nothing?
23 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
24 the question.
25 THE WITNESS: Specifically those

39
1 other cases, Ive reviewed nothing other than what
2 Ive already told you.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. How long — how many occasions did
5 you meet with counsel in preparation for this
6 deposition?
7 A. Face-to-face I met with them last
8 Friday and for an hour or so this morning, and I may
9 have had some — oh, I had one telephone
10 conversation with them, also.
11 Q. What was the total amount of time you
12 spent preparing?
13 A. As far as talking with them or
14 reading –
15 Q. Right.
16 A. — or reading the depositions, also?
17 Q. Meeting with them.
18 A. Seven hours, I guess. Somewhere in
19 there.
20 Q. Do you believe you made a good faith
21 effort to investigate all information available to
22 CertainTeed concerning the subject matter of these
23 depositions?
24 A. Well, I didnt have the Notice, sir,
25 so I did what I thought I would have to do to be

40
1 here this morning. I dont — I did not have these
2 Notices.
3 Q. Do you believe you made a good faith
4 effort to investigate all information available to
5 CertainTeed concerning the subject matter of these
6 depositions?
7 A. I only reviewed what I told you, sir,
8 and I made a good faith effort to review what I told
9 you.
10 Q. My question to you is not that. My
11 question is, do you believe youve made a good faith
12 effort to investigate all information available to
13 CertainTeed concerning the subject matter that you
14 are designated for?
15 MR. EDELL: This is the last time.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, I only
17 reviewed what I reviewed and — I mean, I dont know
18 how else to answer your question.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Im not asking you what you reviewed.
21 Im asking you whether you made a good faith effort
22 to investigate all the information that was
23 available to the company in order to come here and
24 testify as a representative?
25 A. I didnt — the good faith effort I

41
1 made was that I reviewed what I reviewed, sir.
2 Q. So your only good faith effort, sir,
3 in preparing for this deposition was to read the
4 transcripts of two plaintiffs and a couple of
5 co-workers –
6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
7 the question.
8 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
9 Q. — is that what you are saying?
10 MR. EDELL: Thats not what he said.
11 THE WITNESS: No. I also had
12 conversations with the attorneys and I looked at
13 documents that they had.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. And what documents did you look at,
16 sir?
17 MR. EDELL: Hes directed not to
18 answer that question.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Sir, you began working for
21 CertainTeed somewhere around 1967?
22 A. Thats correct, yes.
23 Q. And — excuse me.
24 MR. EDELL: We will not tolerate
25 that, Mr. Placitella.

42
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats all right.
2 Somebody just called me to tell me what documents
3 you actually looked at.
4 MR. EDELL: I can tell you that Spark
5 versus Peel is applicable in –
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats good. So,
7 when you ask me for the picture books that my client
8 looked at, Ill remember that they are not to be
9 produced.
10 MR. EDELL: Okay.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: So, tell Mr. Suss
12 not to send my any more letters.
13 MR. EDELL: Ill do that.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you.
15 MR. EDELL: Promise.
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. Now, through the normal course of
18 your work at CertainTeed, sir, did you acquire
19 information that was available to CertainTeed before
20 1967?
21 A. I acquired information concerning the
22 manufacturing of asbestos-cement pipe, what
23 literature we had, and somewhat of who our customers
24 were.
25 Q. And did you also acquire information

43
1 about what was known to CertainTeed prior to 1967
2 concerning the potential dangers associated with
3 exposure to asbestos?
4 A. I dont know whether I acquired
5 everything that they knew. I mean, I acquired what
6 I know.
7 Q. In approximately 1969 or 1970 you
8 switched from the technical engineering department
9 to the sales engineering department, is that true?
10 A. In 69, yes.
11 Q. In about 1972 you took on a more
12 sales-oriented position and left the engineering
13 side of CertainTeed, is that correct?
14 A. Yes. I became general sales manager,
15 yes, for pipe, asbestos-cement, PVC.
16 Q. And, as general manager for
17 asbestos-cement pipe, were you responsible for the
18 profitability for that division?
19 A. When was this, sir?
20 Q. 1972, when you became general
21 manager.
22 A. No. I became general sales manager.
23 Q. General sales manager.
24 A. Yes. I was responsible for the sale
25 of the product.

44
1 Q. And what were your day-to-day
2 responsibilities?
3 A. To sell the product.
4 Q. Were you involved in the marketing
5 and distribution of the product?
6 A. I was somewhat involved, obviously,
7 in the distribution, but not the marketing.
8 Q. In 1975 did you become the general
9 marketing manager for asbestos-cement pipe and
10 accessories?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And what were your responsibilities
13 in that capacity?
14 A. I had profit responsibility for
15 asbestos-cement pipe.
16 Q. And, when you say profit
17 responsibility, what do you mean by that?
18 A. Well, you know, I — I — profit
19 responsibility for the product and the growth of the
20 product. I obviously worked with the sales
21 department as far as setting price, I worked with
22 the manufacturing department to see what we could do
23 to reduce our costs, and we also tried to see if
24 there were any different markets we could get into
25 or different products we could get into.

45
1 Q. And in 1977 did your job
2 responsibility change again?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what was that?
5 A. We had an organization within the
6 group and we set up two pipe divisions within the
7 group, one asbestos-cement and one PVC, and I became
8 general manager of the asbestos-cement pipe
9 division.
10 Q. And then in 1980 was there another
11 reorganization?
12 A. Yes, there was.
13 Q. And at that point did you become
14 senior vice-president of sales for all product lines
15 and accessory items?
16 A. As far as the pipe group is
17 concerned.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes. Just asbestos-cement and PVC
20 pipe, yes.
21 Q. And then in 1980 –
22 A. Excuse me. That also included
23 marketing for asbestos-cement pipe.
24 Q. And did you keep that job until
25 approximately 19 — 2001 when you retired?

46
1 A. No.
2 Q. What job did you have between 1980
3 and 2001? What were the changes?
4 A. Well, in 1985 I — the job that I had
5 as senior vice-president of sales, the marketing of
6 PVC pipe became part of that job, so I had sales
7 responsibility for asbestos-cement pipe and PVC pipe
8 and marketing responsibility for both pipes.
9 And then in 1989 I became president
10 of the pipe and plastics group, which included both
11 asbestos-cement pipe and PVC pipe.
12 Q. And how long did you keep that job?
13 A. Until I retired.
14 Q. And that was in 2001?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you currently work for
17 CertainTeed as a consultant in asbestos-related
18 matters?
19 A. Asbestos-cement pipe matters, yes.
20 Q. And you are compensated for your
21 time?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. At what rate?
24 A. $125 per hour.
25 Q. And do you have — do you assist in

47
1 the answering and preparation of Interrogatories in
2 the context of asbestos litigation?
3 A. I, once in a while, get asked
4 questions which I answer.
5 Q. And do you actually have a consulting
6 contract with CertainTeed?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And is that a — as I understand, a
9 very short contract of about three paragraphs?
10 A. I dont know the number of
11 paragraphs, but its no longer than three-quarters
12 of a page, yes.
13 Q. And am I correct that you are the
14 only corporate representative ever to testify for
15 CertainTeed about asbestos-cement pipe?
16 A. I dont know the answer to that
17 question.
18 Q. As I understand it, you are called
19 upon from time to time to act as an expert witness
20 on behalf of CertainTeed?
21 A. I dont know the answer to that,
22 either. I dont — I dont know whether Ive ever
23 been called an expert witness.
24 Q. Well, youve been called upon from
25 time to time to provide your opinion as to whether a

48
1 particular plaintiff would have worked with
2 CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe products, based
3 upon your review of the information supplied in the
4 case, true?
5 A. Thats correct, yes.
6 Q. And in this case have you been
7 retained by CertainTeed for that purpose?
8 A. Ive been retained by CertainTeed for
9 these two cases to just give my opinion of whether
10 or not it was CertainTeeds asbestos-cement pipe.
11 Q. And have you prepared a report in
12 that regard?
13 A. No, I have not.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, before I would
15 depose this witness on that particular issue, I
16 would ask for a report, and Ill — well do that
17 another day because that, for me, under New Jersey
18 rules, is expert testimony.
19 Now –
20 MR. EDELL: I understand your
21 position. My silence shouldnt be taken as an
22 acquiescence.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not prepared to
24 ask him questions about that. Hes never been named
25 as an expert.

49
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. You have — am I correct, sir, that
3 CertainTeed has been in the business of selling
4 asbestos-containing products from at least the
5 1930s?
6 A. I dont know when they started
7 selling asbestos — asbestos products. We
8 started — CertainTeed started to sell
9 asbestos-cement pipe in mid-1962.
10 Q. But you are aware, sir, that
11 CertainTeed made many other asbestos-containing
12 products that predated your joining the company by
13 decades, true?
14 A. I dont — I dont know when they
15 started and what products they made, but I do know
16 that they made products prior 1962, yes.
17 Q. Youve never given testimony in other
18 cases, sir, that you are aware that CertainTeed has
19 manufactured asbestos-containing products beginning
20 in the 1930s?
21 A. I may have made that statement. I
22 dont recall it, but — I mean, I may have made it.
23 I mean, it does sound like they — it does sound
24 familiar, that they made some asbestos products in
25 the 1930s, but I dont know that exactly.

50
1 Q. And, sir, am I correct that
2 CertainTeed manufactured asbestos-containing
3 products right here in the State of Pennsylvania?
4 A. We manufacture — yes, we
5 manufactured asbestos-cement pipe in Ambler, yes.
6 Q. What kinds of asbestos-containing
7 products are you aware of that CertainTeed
8 manufactured?
9 A. As — well, could you repeat that
10 question? Im sorry.
11 Q. What types of asbestos-containing
12 products are you aware of that CertainTeed
13 manufactured?
14 A. I am aware of some roofing products
15 that contained some asbestos. Specifically what
16 they were, Im not sure. And I was also aware of
17 some specialty insulation — railroad insulation
18 product and, of course, asbestos-cement pipe.
19 Q. Are you aware that CertainTeed sold
20 asbestos-cement products other than asbestos-cement
21 pipe?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what asbestos-cement products are
24 you aware of that CertainTeed sold other than
25 asbestos-cement pipe?

51
1 A. Asbestos-cement — Im not so sure
2 that I know what asbestos-cement — maybe the siding
3 was asbestos-cement that they may have sold, but I
4 dont know whether it was or not.
5 Q. Tell me the kinds — the types of
6 asbestos-cement pipe that you are aware of that
7 CertainTeed was involved in manufacturing.
8 A. What do you mean by types? Im
9 sorry.
10 Q. Well, is there more than one type of
11 asbestos-cement pipe that was manufactured by
12 CertainTeed?
13 A. Well, there are different markets
14 that they distribute — we distributed our products
15 to, yes. We made pressure pipe for specific markets
16 and we made non-pressure pipe for specific markets.
17 Q. But its all the same, sir?
18 A. No, its not all the same. I mean –
19 Q. So, then, what are the different
20 kinds of products?
21 A. Well, I mean, there is different –
22 the diameters are essentially the same. The wall
23 thickness could be different, depending on the
24 market you are selling to, and the asbestos content
25 could be different, depending on the market you are

52
1 selling to.
2 But the diameters — I mean, they
3 were all nominal diameters. We made three-inch
4 through 24-inch, and our standard length was 13
5 feet, and it was 13 feet for any products — excuse
6 me — any markets that we were going after.
7 Q. Did you make asbestos-containing
8 sewer pipe?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. Do you also know that to be called
11 waste pipe?
12 A. Ive heard that expression, yes.
13 Q. Did you make asbestos-containing
14 pressure pipe?
15 A. Yes, we did.
16 Q. Did you make asbestos-containing vent
17 pipe?
18 A. No, we did not.
19 Q. You never made a vent pipe containing
20 asbestos?
21 A. Thats correct.
22 Q. Did you manufacture a vent pipe?
23 A. What was your first question? Wasnt
24 that the same question?
25 Q. Did you manufacture vent pipe?

53
1 A. No, we did not.
2 Q. You never manufactured vent pipe?
3 A. No, we did not.
4 Excuse me. We manufactured — just a
5 correction. We manufactured some air vent pipe back
6 in the late 60s — in the 60s and we got out of
7 the business in the late 60s.
8 Q. So you did manufacture air vent pipe?
9 A. Air vent pipe, in St. Louis, yes.
10 Q. And did that contain asbestos?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I wasnt considering that. Sorry.
14 Q. Well, well go through each one. The
15 asbestos-cement pipe that was sold in the States of
16 Pennsylvania and New Jersey, where was that
17 manufactured?
18 A. In Ambler, Pennsylvania.
19 Q. So, it wouldnt have come from
20 California; it could have come directly from Ambler,
21 true?
22 A. Thats correct, yes.
23 Q. And did you have primary customers or
24 distributors for asbestos-cement pipe in New Jersey
25 and Pennsylvania?

54
1 A. Yes, we did.
2 Q. And do you know who they were?
3 Im waiting.
4 MR. EDELL: Im sorry. Could we have
5 the question read back, please.
6 (Pertinent portion of the record is
7 read.)
8 THE WITNESS: In Pennsylvania, it was
9 IMCO, and then –
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q. Can you spell is that, please.
12 A. I-M-C-O, and then in New Jersey we
13 sold to Brent, and we also sold to another company
14 in Southern Jersey, and I cant recall their name
15 right now.
16 Q. Konnect?
17 A. Excuse me?
18 Q. Do you know the name Konnect?
19 A. Konnect — how do you spell that?
20 Q. With a K.
21 A. No.
22 MR. CAMP: Im sorry. What was his
23 answer?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: He doesnt know.

55
1 THE WITNESS: No. I said No.
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q. You never sold to them?
4 A. I dont think so.
5 Q. Do you know — so you dont know, as
6 you sit here today, who the distributor was in New
7 Jersey?
8 A. I just told you, Brent.
9 Q. No. Southern New Jersey.
10 A. I cant remember who it was in
11 Southern New Jersey, no, as I sit here today.
12 Q. Is there any information that you
13 could refer to to determine that information?
14 A. Not that Im aware of.
15 Q. So there are no documents that you
16 could look at to make that determination?
17 A. Not that Im aware of.
18 Q. Do you maintain records of sales of
19 asbestos-cement pipe for the States of New Jersey
20 and Pennsylvania?
21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
22 the question.
23 THE WITNESS: We have invoices from
24 the Ambler plant, and they start in 1967, and we
25 have them up till the time that they shut down in

56
1 1982.
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q. And are those invoices complete?
4 A. Not for that time period, no, they
5 are not.
6 Q. How complete are they?
7 A. Well, in 1967 we have one month,
8 June. In 68 we have the fourth quarter. In 69 we
9 have the full year, other than I believe its
10 August — or it could be November. We have one
11 month missing in 69. And in 70 on they are
12 complete, other than 74. We have one month missing
13 in 74.
14 Q. And how is it that you know that they
15 are complete?
16 A. They are done in chronological,
17 numerical order, and you start at the beginning of
18 the year and you can see if there is any — and
19 obviously there is month and customer and everything
20 is on the invoice, and you can see if there is a –
21 if there is a void or a missing — you can tell what
22 is missing. You can get the dates off the invoices.
23 Q. Well, have you ever, for instance,
24 matched the invoices you have to a general ledger to
25 see if you have the invoices for every sale?

57
1 A. I just told you — no. I just told
2 you what we did. Im sorry.
3 Q. So, basically, when you say they are
4 complete, you just looked at the invoices that were
5 available?
6 A. The invoices, but they are in — I
7 mean, the first invoice is dated January 1st and the
8 last invoice is dated December 31st for a year.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. And you can see if they follow in
11 sequence. And they are numbered in sequence, so
12 that, if you have nothing missing, you have a
13 complete invoice — a complete file.
14 Q. So you have a number for every
15 invoice, so, if there is 365 invoices, for example,
16 you would have 1 through 365?
17 A. Thats correct.
18 Q. So there wouldnt be a 362a?
19 A. There shouldnt be.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. No. There should be — no, thats
22 right. Yes, you are right.
23 Q. Now, where are these invoices kept
24 currently?
25 A. In — at Goodwin Procters files in

58
1 Washington.
2 Q. And do you know how they are
3 organized?
4 A. They are in — on a microfilm,
5 microfiche.
6 Q. Do you know whether theyve ever been
7 incorporated into a database?
8 A. Not that Im aware of.
9 Q. Do you know whether theyve ever been
10 catalogued so, if you wanted to ask somebody, Did
11 you sell to Cohen, Placitella & Roth in 1976, youd
12 be able to tell, other than looking through each and
13 every invoice in 1976?
14 A. Youd have to look at the invoice,
15 because we dont have them necessarily designated or
16 separated by customer. But on every invoice its
17 the — the sold-to customer is on there and the
18 ship-to customer is on there and the quantity of the
19 pipe thats shipped.
20 Q. The invoices, however, dont
21 necessarily tell you where the product went, true?
22 A. No, thats not true. There is a
23 ship-to on the invoice. Every invoice has a
24 ship-to.
25 Q. So the invoice always tells you the

59
1 job site on which the product was ultimately used?
2 A. No, thats not — your question was,
3 does it show — tell where its shipped to, and it
4 does tell where its shipped to. However, if you
5 are our distributor and you buy a product and its
6 in any kind of a quantity, generally one truck or
7 longer for a job, you would have it shipped directly
8 to the job site, but youd be showing up as the
9 customer, but the ship-to would be the job site.
10 Q. But there are circumstances, for
11 example, where you would ship to a place like Brent
12 where the destination would be Brent and, if Brent
13 then used it at a particular job site, it wouldnt
14 necessarily be reflected there, true?
15 A. Thats correct, yes.
16 Q. Do you maintain brochures for all of
17 the products that you sold that were asbestos-cement
18 pipe products?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
22 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
23 Q. Where are those brochures located?
24 A. They are in Goodwin Procters files.
25 Q. And have you seen them yourself?

60
1 A. Ive seen brochures, yes.
2 Q. And if you, Lloyd Ambler, asked, I
3 want to see all the brochures ever used, how would
4 you get it?
5 A. Id call them down there and ask for
6 them.
7 Q. And theyd be able to hand them to
8 you?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. PLACITELLA: Id make a request
11 for the same thing.
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. Do you know who the salespeople were
14 for asbestos-cement pipe on behalf of CertainTeed in
15 the States of New Jersey and Pennsylvania?
16 A. I couldnt recite those to you. They
17 changed and I just cant recall them all, no.
18 Q. Do you know any of them?
19 A. Well, I know who the district sales
20 managers were on the –
21 Q. And who was that?
22 A. Well, we had — John Prechack was a
23 district sales — same district sales — by the way,
24 the same district sales manager would handle both
25 states.

61
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. John Prechack was a district sales
3 manager, Gale Olsen was a district sales manager,
4 and there was a district sales manager prior to John
5 that — Paul Williams was a district sales manager
6 prior to John.
7 Q. And is Mr. Prechack alive?
8 A. No, hes not.
9 Q. What about — is Gale Olsen a male or
10 a female?
11 A. Its a male.
12 Q. Is Mr. Olsen alive?
13 A. I dont know. Last I talked to
14 him — its been a couple years now, so I dont
15 know.
16 Q. Where did he last reside when you
17 spoke to him?
18 A. Right outside of West Chester,
19 Pennsylvania.
20 Q. Do you know what town?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. And what was the reason why you had
23 to speak with him?
24 A. Just a friend. Go out and have lunch
25 with him.

62
1 Q. So you have his phone number?
2 A. I did. I dont know whether I still
3 have it or not. I mean, I have a number. I dont
4 know whether its current or not.
5 Q. Where do you keep that number?
6 A. Its at my house.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Ill make a request
8 for that number.
9 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
10 Q. Mr. Williams, is he still alive?
11 A. No, hes not.
12 MR. EDELL: Chris, just for the
13 record, if you want something and you send me a
14 letter –
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Every time I make a
16 request, could you make a note and Ill have it all
17 in one spot?
18 MR. EDELL: Im not going to ferret
19 through the transcript and –
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not. Im going
21 to get one list at the end and Ill just send you
22 that sheet.
23 MR. EDELL: Fine.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: As I — just so I
25 know, before I speak to him, is Mr. Olsen part of

63
1 the litigation control group?
2 MR. EDELL: I dont know, but Ill
3 let you know.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Youll let me know
5 that before I go out and talk to him?
6 MR. EDELL: Sure.
7 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
8 Q. Do you have a record somewhere of the
9 salespeople for the States of Pennsylvania and New
10 Jersey for asbestos-cement pipe?
11 A. Not that Im aware of.
12 Q. Turning to ventilating pipe, can you
13 tell me what the intended use of the
14 asbestos-containing ventilating pipe was that was
15 manufactured and sold by CertainTeed?
16 A. By that do you mean vent — air vent
17 pipe?
18 Q. Correct.
19 A. It was pipe that was manufactured to
20 be sold to conduct warm air for residential
21 housing — primarily residential housing, and it was
22 pipe that was installed underneath the basement
23 floor just to conduct air for either heat or air
24 conditioning. It was manufactured in St. Louis,
25 Missouri.

64
1 Q. And was it ever –
2 A. And it was sold primarily in the
3 Midwest market.
4 Q. Well, do you know whether or not it
5 was ever sold in New Jersey or Pennsylvania?
6 A. I never — I never remember it being
7 sold in the time I was with the company in that
8 area. It was just sold in the Midwest market. We
9 got out of the business in 69.
10 Q. Well, do you know for certain whether
11 it was sold in New Jersey or Pennsylvania?
12 A. I can only tell you what I know, and
13 I know it was not — well, we never — I never was
14 involved in any sale of that product.
15 Q. Well, you werent involved in sales
16 at all during this time period, were you, sir?
17 A. Well, I got involved in sales — I
18 worked — when I was in the technical department in
19 67, when I came to work for the company, I worked
20 very closely with the sales and marketing group on
21 technical issues. I pretty well knew what product
22 lines we were selling and where, and then, when I
23 got into sales engineering, I was certainly involved
24 in sales, in 69.
25 Q. So, was your job, sir, in the 1960s

65
1 to know where all the asbestos-cement pipe was sold
2 by CertainTeed?
3 A. I dont know where every job was, but
4 I know what products we were selling in what markets
5 when I came to work for the company in 67.
6 Q. And, sir, are you saying that the
7 vent pipe was never used in commercial applications?
8 A. It — no, Im not saying that. I
9 said, primarily in residential. It could have been
10 used in — if you say like a school or a hospital,
11 if thats commercial, it could have been used there,
12 also.
13 Q. And the years that was sold, sir?
14 A. Well, I dont know when it started.
15 Obviously it was sometime 62 or after, and we got
16 out of the business in 1968 or 9.
17 Q. And, when you say you got out of the
18 business, how do you know that?
19 A. Because there was an all-out effort
20 to deplete the inventory and we didnt make any
21 more.
22 Q. And when was the last production of
23 the vent pipe that contained asbestos manufactured
24 by CertainTeed?
25 A. As best I can recall, it was in the

66
1 late 60s. 8 or 9.
2 Q. And how was that shipped, when that
3 product was shipped, sir?
4 A. By truck.
5 Q. Do you know who the salesman was or
6 the district manager in charge of the sale of that
7 product?
8 A. In the — in the late 60s — well,
9 it was in St. Louis, and I dont know who — no, I
10 dont. Ray Blankenship was the district manager and
11 then he moved to Valley Forge in the late 60s, and
12 I cant remember who replaced Ray.
13 Q. Well, who was in charge of the
14 marketing of that product?
15 A. The marketing? It was a non — there
16 was a non-pressure pipe marketing manager. I
17 cant — it was probably Ed Lawless at that time.
18 Q. And where did he reside?
19 A. I dont know where he resided.
20 Q. Where was his office?
21 A. In Valley Forge. Valley Forge — or
22 at that point it was in — in — it was not — we
23 didnt — hadnt opened our offices in Valley Forge,
24 so it was over in — I forget the name of that area.
25 We had a little office building about a half a mile

67
1 outside of Ambler.
2 Q. So, the office that was in charge of
3 selling asbestos-containing vent pipe for
4 CertainTeed was located in Pennsylvania?
5 A. No. That wasnt the question, I
6 dont believe.
7 Q. Well, the person that was in charge
8 of the marketing of the asbestos vent pipe for
9 CertainTeed was in Pennsylvania?
10 A. Yes. All marketing managers were in
11 Pennsylvania, yes.
12 Q. When that product was shipped, how
13 was it shipped?
14 A. By truck.
15 Q. And how was it packaged?
16 A. It was — wasnt packaged any
17 differently than our normal pipe. It was palletized
18 on — you know, it had lumber on the sides and it
19 had steel straps.
20 Q. And what trades would be involved in
21 installing that product, do you know?
22 A. Generally, I would say a — it would
23 be a pipefitter, for lack of a better term.
24 Q. And do you know, from your
25 experience, what trades would be working in the

68
1 vicinity of the people installing that product? Not
2 necessarily installing it themselves.
3 A. No, I dont know that.
4 Q. Do you know whether that product was
5 ever fabricated on site?
6 A. What do you mean by fabricated?
7 Q. Well, was it ever cut, scored,
8 drilled on site?
9 A. Im sure it was cut. I dont know
10 that, I wasnt there, but Im sure it was.
11 Q. Do you know whether ever — testing
12 was ever done to determine whether asbestos was
13 released during the cutting of CertainTeed vent
14 pipe?
15 A. Testing where?
16 Q. Well, thats a good question, so Ill
17 rephrase it.
18 Do you know whether testing was ever
19 done to determine whether people installing the pipe
20 would cause a release of asbestos fiber when they
21 cut the pipe?
22 A. There was no testing done at that
23 time period because we recommended manual ways to
24 cut our pipe.
25 Q. And the manual — when you say

69
1 manual, what do you mean by that?
2 A. Well, there are two general manual
3 ways. One is the pop cutter and the other is the
4 carbide tip, like wheel cutter.
5 Q. What do you mean, carbide tip wheel
6 cutter? What do you mean by that?
7 A. It had little carbide tip cutters on
8 the end of a spoke and they would just turn the
9 wheel around and it would cut through the pipe.
10 Q. Sir, you indicated to me that you
11 were familiar with the applications for the vent
12 pipe, correct?
13 A. The applications?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Just what I told you. I never sold
16 it. It was sold in residential and there were
17 probably some commercial applications for it. It
18 was generally put underneath — underneath the
19 basement slabs.
20 Q. Well, sir, you marketed it for
21 commercial applications, did you not?
22 A. Well, I just said it was probably
23 sold in hospitals and in schools, if thats
24 commercial.
25 Q. Well, other than hospitals and

70
1 schools, you marketed broadly for commercial
2 applications, did you not?
3 A. I dont know what your definition of
4 commercial application is. I mean, we sold it in
5 the general St. Louis area.
6 Q. Im saying, sir, what was the
7 intended application — what kind of commercial
8 applications was it marketed for?
9 A. The only ones Im aware of — it was
10 primarily residential. The only commercial
11 applications that I can recall, unless you have
12 something differently there, was somewhat in maybe
13 schools or hospitals or something like that.
14 Q. Well, werent you the one who said to
15 me that it was part of your job to know the markets
16 for this product?
17 A. I wasnt involved with air vent pipe
18 because we were getting out of that business,
19 generally, when I came to work for the company, and
20 we were depleting our inventory and, like I say,
21 that was in roughly 68, and I came to work for the
22 company in 67.
23 I was more involved with the water
24 and sewer part of the product.
25 Q. So you dont really know where all

71
1 the asbestos-cement pipe for vent was sold, do you?
2 A. Just from what I know when I came to
3 work for the company. We made it in St. Louis and
4 it was primarily sold in the Midwest.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Can we have this
6 marked P-4, please.
7 (Exhibit Ambler 4 is marked for
8 identification.)
9 MR. EDELL: Chris, counsel — my
10 co-counsel says that the first page, which has been
11 marked as Ambler 4, this exhibit, does not go with
12 the remaining pages of the exhibit.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats not my
14 understanding, but well — well, lets make it
15 easy. Rip off the first page and put 4 on the
16 second page.
17 MR. EDELL: Thats fine.
18 MS. PARIS: I was just wondering if
19 the microphone could be moved a little bit closer to
20 the witness.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: The witness — the
22 microphone is two feet from the witness mouth.
23 MS. PARIS: Thank you.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Youre welcome.
25 BY MR. PLACITELLA:

72
1 Q. Sir, you have in front of you what I
2 believe is a 1967 brochure for CertainTeed
3 asbestos-cement pipe — do you see that — called
4 Air Duct?
5 A. I see it, but I dont see where it
6 says 67.
7 Q. All the way on the back page in the
8 little letters in the lower left-hand corner.
9 A. I saw those, sir, but I dont — I
10 cant read 67. I dont know that.
11 Q. Do you recognize this as a brochure
12 for Air Duct asbestos-cement pipe by CertainTeed,
13 sir?
14 A. Yes. Air vent pipe, yes.
15 Q. And it says here that the pipe was
16 used for heating, true?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Air conditioning?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And ventilating?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. True?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it says that — and its
25 advertised on the front page of this brochure, sir,

73
1 that its for industrial use, true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And commercial use?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In addition to residential and
6 institutional use, correct?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And the first thing thats listed is
9 a — has a picture of a factory, right?
10 A. Thats the first block, yes.
11 Q. And the second block to the right is
12 commercial, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So, does that refresh your memory,
15 sir, as to whether this product was, in fact,
16 intended for use both in industrial and commercial
17 applications, other than institutional applications?
18 A. Well, I tried to answer your question
19 as honestly and as factually as I could before, Mr.
20 Placitella. I mean, yes, it is what it says, and I
21 can remember, when I came to work for the company,
22 they were selling it primarily in the residential
23 and some commercial applications.
24 Q. But you dont really know what
25 happened before you came to the company then, in

74
1 terms of marketing this product, do you?
2 A. I was not involved with this product
3 when it came out.
4 Q. Now, just for the record, this
5 brochure has pictures of people cutting the pipe,
6 correct?
7 A. Yes. With a hand saw, yes.
8 Q. All right.
9 And hammering it with a chisel,
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the pipe stacked one on top of
13 another, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And none of the people in these
16 pictures are wearing any type of respirator, true?
17 A. Thats correct. There was no need
18 to.
19 Q. Nobody in this picture — any of
20 these pictures are wearing a respirator, true?
21 A. Thats correct, because these are
22 all — like Ive testified to earlier, sir, these
23 are all manual ways of cutting the product.
24 Q. Sir, that wasnt my question. Let me
25 ask the question again.

75
1 Nobody in these pictures is wearing a
2 respirator, true?
3 A. Thats correct, because there is
4 manual ways of cutting the product.
5 Q. Sir, did I ask you the reason?
6 A. No, but –
7 Q. Okay.
8 So let me ask you the question again.
9 Nobody in these pictures are wearing a respirator,
10 true?
11 A. No. Thats correct.
12 Q. Now, in addition to –
13 MR. EDELL: You dont want to know
14 why?
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Im going to get to
16 that later on, okay?
17 MR. EDELL: Im joking.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Well get there.
19 Youll have all the time you need.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. At the time that this product was
22 marketed and these pictures — or the depictions of
23 people cutting the product were incorporated into
24 your brochure, had CertainTeed conducted any testing
25 to determine whether the operations shown in this

76
1 brochure were going to release asbestos fiber as
2 part of the operation?
3 A. There was no testing done.
4 Q. Now, is there something also known as
5 fluid pipe? Fluid pipe?
6 A. Fluid pipe? Not that Im aware of.
7 Fluid-Tite.
8 Q. There is not a product known as fluid
9 pipe?
10 A. I dont recall a product called fluid
11 pipe.
12 MR. EDELL: Fluid-Tite. Its a
13 trademark.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. Im asking, is there a type of
16 product called fluid pipe?
17 A. Ive not heard of fluid pipe. I
18 mean, in — is this a brand name or a trade name?
19 Q. Generically, did you make a fluid
20 pipe that contained asbestos?
21 A. We made a pipe that transmitted
22 fluid, if thats your question, but we didnt call
23 it — Ive never called it fluid pipe.
24 Q. You called it what?
25 A. If it was asbestos-cement, wed call

77
1 it asbestos-cement, wed call it A/C, but our brand
2 name was Fluid-Tite.
3 Q. And is that the only brand name you
4 ever sold a fluid pipe for?
5 A. Fluid-Tite, yes.
6 Q. And what was the intended use of that
7 product?
8 A. As I mentioned earlier, we sold it to
9 the pressure pipe market and the non-pressure pipe
10 market. One was for the transmission of water, the
11 other was the transmission of storm drain or sewage.
12 Q. And when you say — well, I can stop
13 now and you can change it. Why dont we take a
14 break.
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
16 11:04 a.m.
17 (Discussion is held off the record.)
18 MR. EDELL: Before we start, can you
19 mark this, please, as Ambler 5.
20 (Exhibit Ambler 5 is marked for
21 identification.)
22 MR. EDELL: Before, Mr. Placitella,
23 you asked whether I responded in writing to all
24 three of the Deposition Notices that you had marked
25 during the beginning of the deposition, and I have

78
1 marked Ambler 5, which is my letter to you of
2 July 28, 2009, which states, in part, I am writing
3 with respect to the three Notices for corporate
4 depositions that youve recently served on
5 CertainTeed in the various matters that are the
6 subject of this deposition.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: That wasnt the
8 statement I made, but I have no doubt that you and I
9 corresponded about these depositions.
10 MR. EDELL: Okay.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats different
12 than what I asked.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
14 at 11:10.
15 MR. CAMP: Chris?
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
17 MR. CAMP: Would you mind just
18 confirming on the record that the matter is not
19 noticed in Glock and Wecker pursuant to the Notice
20 we got from your office?
21 You included that when you cited
22 cases before.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Actually, I do see
24 Wecker on a Notice.
25 MR. CAMP: It was, and then I think

79
1 we got a Notice during the week, but –
2 MR. PLACITELLA: And I also see one
3 in Glock.
4 MR. CAMP: — but the record will
5 speak for itself. Well work it out.
6 MR. EDELL: I see one for Wecker.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: And Glock.
8 MR. EDELL: Okay.
9 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
10 Q. Lets talk about pressure and
11 non-pressure pipe. What was the pressure pipe
12 intended to be used for?
13 A. Well, generally, three areas: One
14 was the municipal water market; the other was the
15 irrigation market, and then the third was the fluid
16 transmission market.
17 Q. And the non-pressure pipe, what was
18 the intended use of that?
19 A. Sewage — domestic or any kind of
20 sewage, and then also storm drain.
21 Q. Was the pressure — the pressure pipe
22 ever installed anywhere other than underground?
23 A. Not — not that — we did not sell it
24 for anyplace other than underground, and I cant
25 recall it ever being installed above ground. I

80
1 mean, it could have come out of the ground, go over
2 a certain area, but then went back into the ground.
3 Q. And what about the non-pressure pipe?
4 Was that ever installed out of the ground?
5 A. Ive never seen it installed out of
6 the ground. We didnt sell it for that reason.
7 Q. Did you sell any asbestos-containing
8 pipe with the intended use — as one of its intended
9 uses that it would be installed above the ground?
10 A. No, we did not.
11 Q. Other than, of course, the vent pipe?
12 A. Well, the vent pipe — I dont
13 believe that was installed above the ground.
14 Q. You dont know so, as you sit here?
15 A. Well, Im looking at this brochure.
16 I mean, as far as I know, on the vent pipe, it was
17 all under a slab or under the ground, and thats
18 what this brochure says also.
19 Q. You dont know that it was installed
20 in commercial buildings between floors?
21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
22 the question.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. I dont know if
24 it was or it wasnt, but the intent, as I understand
25 it, was to be in the ground.

81
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. But you dont know for certain the
3 vent pipe — if the vent pipe was installed above
4 the ground or not?
5 A. I dont know –
6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
7 the question.
8 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
9 Q. True?
10 MR. EDELL: Are you asking him
11 whether it ever occurred or whether it was
12 intended — that was an intended use of the product?
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Im asking him the
14 question I asked him.
15 MR. EDELL: Which –
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. You dont know for certain, sir,
18 whether the asbestos-containing vent pipe was
19 installed above the ground?
20 MR. EDELL: Same objection to the
21 form of the question.
22 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
23 Q. You can answer it.
24 A. I dont — I dont — I dont know if
25 it was ever installed above the ground –

82
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. — but, as I understand it, that
3 wasnt its intent.
4 Q. It was your understanding that it
5 wasnt to be sold for factory and commercial
6 applications too, right?
7 A. I told you what I told you earlier,
8 sir.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Now, the asbestos-cement pipe, in
11 terms of its composition, was it basically the same
12 whether it was a pressure or non-pressure pipe?
13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
14 the question.
15 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
16 its composition?
17 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
18 Q. Did the asbestos content vary
19 depending on whether the product was a pressure or
20 non-pressure pipe?
21 A. Yes, it did.
22 Q. And how did it vary?
23 A. Primarily the percentage of asbestos
24 in the product.
25 Q. And what was the percentage of

83
1 asbestos in the product for pressure pipe?
2 MR. EDELL: Are we speaking about any
3 particular manufacturers product?
4 MR. PLACITELLA: CertainTeed is the
5 only one I care about.
6 MR. EDELL: I just wanted to know.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Well get to all the
8 stuff they did with Manville tomorrow.
9 MR. EDELL: Okay.
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q. Right now we are talking about
12 CertainTeed. Do you understand that, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 So, when Im asking you questions –
16 unless I say something about Johns-Manville or some
17 other competitor, when Im asking you questions
18 about asbestos-cement pipe, youll understand Im
19 talking to you about CertainTeed asbestos-cement
20 pipe, okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The asbestos-cement pipe — the
23 pressure pipe, what was the percentage of asbestos
24 in the pressure pipe?
25 A. It ranged anywhere between, by

84
1 weight, 15 to 20 percent. It averaged somewhere
2 around 17 percent.
3 Q. And what was the percentage of
4 asbestos in the non-pressure pipe?
5 A. It ranged anywhere between 10 and 15
6 percent and averaged 12, 13 percent.
7 Q. By weight?
8 A. Im sorry. Yes, by weight.
9 Q. And it was my understanding that the
10 product came generally in 13-foot lengths, whether
11 it was pressure or non-pressure pipe?
12 A. Yes, our standard length was 13 feet.
13 Q. And a 13-foot pipe weighed
14 approximately what?
15 A. I dont know. Depends on the size,
16 depends on the class.
17 Q. Did you sell asbestos-cement pipe
18 with up to 25 pounds of asbestos in a single piece
19 of pipe?
20 A. Twenty-five pounds?
21 Q. Right.
22 A. Wed have to sit here and figure it
23 out, but Im sure — one piece of pipe, Im sure we
24 did.
25 Q. And in every piece of asbestos-cement

85
1 pipe sold by CertainTeed there were two different
2 kinds of asbestos, true?
3 A. For the most part thats true, yes.
4 Q. They are chrysotile, correct?
5 A. That was one, yes.
6 Q. And crocidolite was the other?
7 A. Thats correct, yes.
8 Q. Am I correct that, of the asbestos
9 content for CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe,
10 approximately 10 to 15 percent was crocidolite
11 asbestos?
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 THE WITNESS: Of the total asbestos
15 content, thats correct.
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. You sold asbestos-cement pipe from
18 1962 until 1992, true?
19 A. Pretty true. Pretty true. I mean,
20 we — we stopped manufacturing it in the fourth
21 quarter of 1992, and obviously we had some
22 inventory, so that sloughed over into the first
23 quarter of 93.
24 Q. Okay.
25 What trades is your understanding

86
1 that installed CertainTeed pressure pipe that
2 contained asbestos?
3 A. Primarily, pressure pipe, utility
4 contractors.
5 Q. And what trades do they employ?
6 A. What do you mean, what trades do
7 they employ?
8 Q. Well, you just said before vent –
9 vent pipe was installed by pipefitters.
10 A. Yes. Thats my opinion on that, yes.
11 Q. So what trades installed pressure
12 pipe?
13 A. Well, they — I mean, generally the
14 people actually installing the pipe were called
15 laborers, and then you obviously had — you had
16 operators for the equipment and then you obviously
17 had supervision on the job.
18 Q. And what about the non-pressure pipe?
19 What trades installed non-pressure pipe?
20 A. That was the — the utility
21 contractors again, but ones that focused on — on –
22 on sewer pipe installations.
23 Q. Was the non-pressure pipe ever cut in
24 the field?
25 A. Yes.

87
1 Q. Was the pressure pipe ever cut in the
2 field?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what trades were in the
5 vicinity of people who were cutting non-pressure
6 pipe?
7 A. Not necessarily. I do not, no.
8 Q. Do you know what trades would work in
9 the vicinity of people who cut pressure pipe?
10 A. Well, I dont know what the
11 definition of vicinity is, but I cant recall of
12 anybody being in the close area or in that area
13 where the pipe was being installed.
14 Q. Okay.
15 When you say close area, what do
16 you mean by that?
17 A. Well, I dont know of any trades that
18 are — that are necessarily working in — where pipe
19 is being installed. It depends on — on how the
20 overall construction is being programmed.
21 You know, are houses being built down
22 the street? Could be. Would there be carpenters
23 and roofers? Could be. I dont know that.
24 But there wasnt any trades that
25 were — that were specifically there to work with

88
1 these contractors to install the product, other than
2 the — other than the operators, and they were a
3 part of the company.
4 Q. The pressure pipe, was that ever
5 stalled — installed as part of a building?
6 A. Inside the building?
7 Q. Or in the foundation of the building.
8 A. Well, we — there was pressure pipe
9 run up to the building, yes.
10 Q. And, when you say up to the
11 building, what do you mean by that?
12 A. Well, you have — generally you have
13 pipe in the ground thats transmitting water, and
14 then you have to get it from that main line to the
15 building, and on some commercial applications the –
16 they did run asbestos-cement from the main line to
17 the building. Did it go into the building? It
18 could have gone in for some distance. I dont know
19 exactly how far — we didnt sell that much — we
20 didnt sell that much pipe going from the main line
21 to the building unless it was a — some sort of a
22 commercial application.
23 Q. The non-pressure pipe, was that ever
24 installed in a building?
25 A. Not — not — that wasnt the intent

89
1 and I cant recall it ever being done.
2 Q. Was the non-pressure and the pressure
3 pipe shipped the same way?
4 A. It was all shipped by truck, for the
5 most part. I mean, obviously there are exceptions.
6 We did some piggybacking once in a while or –
7 but — or even straight rail once in a while, but
8 primarily almost all our shipments were by truck.
9 Q. Are you aware that CertainTeed sold
10 asbestos-cement shingles?
11 A. I knew that there was some
12 asbestos — I dont know whether its
13 asbestos-cement or not, but I knew there was some
14 asbestos involved in the roofing group. To what
15 degree, I dont know.
16 Q. You are aware that CertainTeed sold
17 asbestos-cement siding shingles, correct?
18 A. I knew that they sold some asbestos
19 siding, yes.
20 Q. Do you know what the intended use was
21 for that product?
22 A. For what? Siding?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No, I dont.
25 Q. Do you know the years it was sold?

90
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. Do you know how it was shipped?
3 A. No, I do not.
4 Q. Do you know that — who the
5 distributors were for New Jersey and Pennsylvania?
6 A. For siding?
7 Q. Correct.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know where it was
10 manufactured?
11 A. No. I dont even know if CertainTeed
12 manufactured it.
13 Q. Had you ever heard that it was
14 manufactured by National Gypsum?
15 A. I heard that there was another
16 company that manufactured it, but I dont know who
17 it was.
18 Q. Do you know the trade that would have
19 installed it?
20 A. Installed the siding?
21 Q. Correct.
22 A. No. Only home builders.
23 Q. When CertainTeed was deciding whether
24 to put a warning on its asbestos-cement pipe, am I
25 correct that asbestos-cement siding was part of a

91
1 group of asbestos-cement products that was being
2 considered?
3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
4 the question.
5 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I
6 mean, I dont know — asbestos-cement siding?
7 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
8 Q. Yes, sir.
9 A. In the late — in the 70s?
10 I dont know that. I mean, we were
11 in the PVC siding business in the 70s.
12 Q. I didnt say the 70s, sir.
13 Do you know whether, in trying to
14 determine whether warnings should be placed on
15 CertainTeed products, CertainTeed grouped
16 asbestos-cement siding with asbestos-cement pipe as
17 part of its consideration?
18 A. I have no idea.
19 Q. Do you know — do you have any
20 knowledge as to when or if warnings ever accompanied
21 the sale of asbestos-cement siding by CertainTeed?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. Do you know whether any testing was
24 done by CertainTeed to determine whether asbestos
25 fiber was released during the installation of

92
1 asbestos-cement siding?
2 A. No. I dont know.
3 Q. Are you –
4 A. Your question was, specifically, do I
5 know, right?
6 Q. Correct.
7 A. I do not know.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Did CertainTeed sell asbestos-cement
10 sheets?
11 A. I dont know, and I dont believe
12 they did.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you have this
14 marked Ambler 6.
15 (Exhibit Ambler 6 is marked for
16 identification.)
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Im just waiting for
18 your lawyer, and I think they are trying to figure
19 out whether I typed anything in.
20 MR. EDELL: No. We just want to make
21 sure its a complete set, thats all. There are
22 several attachments to the –
23 MR. PLACITELLA: I think I got them
24 all.
25 MR. EDELL: — to the set.

93
1 Other than the portion thats
2 doctored, it looks like its accurate.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: I can guarantee you,
4 if I doctored it, you wouldnt see it.
5 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
6 Q. You have in front of you whats been
7 marked P-6 for identification. These are the
8 Answers to Interrogatories. I presume that they are
9 the standard answers in every case, but they are
10 marked in the Bird case.
11 Do you see that? For Middlesex
12 County?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Have you been involved in supplying
15 information to assist in answering Interrogatories
16 like this on behalf of CertainTeed?
17 A. Ive been asked questions, specific
18 questions, when they are preparing Interrogatories,
19 and I gave my answers, yes.
20 Q. Would you go to Attachment D, please.
21 Do you see that, sir?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Attachment D is asbestos-cement
24 product other than asbestos-cement pipe.
25 Do you see that?

94
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Could you go to Page 2 — the bottom
4 of Page 2?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It says, CertainTeed manufactured an
7 asbestos-cement board product from 1928 to 1930, but
8 the product was not economically successful.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So we now know that CertainTeed was
12 manufacturing asbestos-containing cement products as
13 early as 1930. True?
14 A. Per this, yes.
15 Q. It further states, Thereafter
16 CertainTeed did not manufacture asbestos-cement
17 sheets, but it did offer flat sheets for sale under
18 CertainTeeds name for a period that began in the
19 1950s and ended in approximately 1973.
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is this the first time that you found
23 out — today — that CertainTeed sold
24 asbestos-cement sheets from the 1950s until 1973?
25 A. As I — as I testified to, I was

95
1 under the impression we did not make asbestos-cement
2 sheets.
3 Q. It further says, To the best of
4 CertainTeeds knowledge, these products were solid
5 slabs that were gray in color and manufactured from
6 cement, silica and asbestos fiber, with the asbestos
7 fiber being bound up in the cement matrix.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. These products were designed for use
11 on the exterior of commercial buildings, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you are obviously not the person
14 with the most knowledge concerning asbestos-cement
15 sheets or siding products sold by CertainTeed, true?
16 A. Thats correct.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. As far as I know, Im not.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how
20 the asbestos content in the asbestos-cement sheets
21 compared to the asbestos-cement pipe?
22 A. No, I do not.
23 Q. The first time that CertainTeed
24 itself — you know what, let me do a little
25 housekeeping here, so were…

96
1 Let me start again. The first time
2 that CertainTeed manufactured asbestos-cement pipe
3 was sometime in 1962, true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what happened was that
6 CertainTeed purchased the asbestos-cement pipe
7 business from a company called Keasbey & Mattison,
8 true?
9 A. No. They purchased the
10 asbestos-cement pipe assets from Keasbey & Mattison.
11 Q. Is there a difference in your mind?
12 A. Well, Im not a lawyer, obviously,
13 but the assets are the assets and, to me, an asset
14 doesnt necessarily include any liabilities or
15 anything of that nature. So they didnt necessarily
16 purchase the company; they purchased the assets.
17 Q. All I just asked you was, did they
18 purchase the business.
19 A. And I said they purchased the assets.
20 Q. And the assets included inventory?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It included the goodwill of the
23 company?
24 A. The name — well, goodwill — what do
25 you mean by goodwill?

97
1 Q. In terms of the customer base,
2 customer lists, salespeople, that kind of thing.
3 MR. EDELL: Im going to object to –
4 this witness is not produced as a corporate
5 representative to answer legal issues regarding the
6 purchase of the assets of another corporation.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand.
8 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
9 Q. Do you understand that they purchased
10 the goodwill of the company?
11 MR. EDELL: If you — obviously, if
12 you think that you know what hes talking about and
13 you feel comfortable answering the question, then
14 answer the question. If not, then tell him that you
15 thats your understanding.
16 THE WITNESS: What — how do you
17 define goodwill?
18 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
19 Q. Ill do it a different way.
20 CertainTeed purchased the knowledge
21 of the manufacturing process, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it purchased the factories that
24 made asbestos-cement pipe, correct?
25 A. Yes.

98
1 Q. And it purchased the customer lists,
2 correct?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. And it — and the accounting records
5 would have been transferred — as it related to
6 asbestos-cement pipe sales, were transferred from
7 Keasbey & Mattison to CertainTeed, true?
8 A. I dont know what accounting records
9 were transferred.
10 Q. The salespeople with all of their
11 contacts generally were transferred from Keasbey &
12 Mattison to CertainTeed, true?
13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
14 the question. What do you mean by generally?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. Well, I dont know — you cant say
18 each and every salesperson went over, true?
19 A. Thats true.
20 Q. But, generally speaking, the sales
21 force for asbestos-cement pipe for Keasbey &
22 Mattison went over to CertainTeed as part of the
23 purchase, true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.

99
1 And those sales — that sales force
2 had relationships and contacts with customers, true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And those relationships and those
5 contacts would have gone from Keasbey & Mattison to
6 CertainTeed, true?
7 A. The contacts obviously did. I cant
8 say that all the relationships did.
9 Q. And the — Keasbey & Mattison had
10 industrial hygiene-related people that worked for
11 them in the asbestos-cement pipe business, true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And those people came over to
14 CertainTeed, as well, true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Keasbey & Mattison also had medical
17 doctors that worked for them that were — came over
18 to CertainTeed as part of the purchase, true?
19 A. I dont believe thats a fact. I
20 dont — Keasbey & Mattison, as far as I know,
21 didnt have any medical doctors and, when I came to
22 work for CertainTeed Corporation, the — the medical
23 doctors were people who we were using as outside
24 doctors. They werent on our payroll.
25 Q. The knowledge that Keasbey & Mattison

100
1 had concerning how to safely manufacture its product
2 was transferred to CertainTeed, true?
3 A. The knowledge of how to manufacture
4 the product was transferred, yes.
5 Q. Keasbey & Mattisons knowledge how to
6 safely sell the product was transferred to
7 CertainTeed, true?
8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
12 Q. You understand that there was a
13 relationship between Keasbey & Mattison and a
14 company known as Turner Brothers, true?
15 A. Turner Brothers? I believe it was
16 Turner-Newall, but –
17 Q. Turner and Newall?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you understand that Turner and
21 Newall was part owner of Keasbey & Mattison before
22 the purchase of the assets, true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You also understand that Turner and
25 Newall, as part of the transfer, became part owner

101
1 of the entity that CertainTeed took over, true?
2 A. They became — would you — would
3 you –
4 Q. They became part owner of the
5 asbestos-cement pipe business that CertainTeed owned
6 and operated?
7 A. I dont believe that the CertainTeed
8 pipe business was split out as an entity. It became
9 part of the corporation.
10 Q. Did — were there people from Turner
11 and Newall that were on the Board of Directors of
12 Keasbey & Mattison?
13 A. Of Keasbey & Mattison?
14 Q. Correct.
15 A. I dont know the answer to that
16 question.
17 Q. Do you know whether there were people
18 from Turner and Newall that were on the Board of
19 Directors of CertainTeed?
20 A. For a period of time there were, yes.
21 Q. All of the research that was done
22 concerning asbestos-cement pipe by Keasbey &
23 Mattison was transferred to CertainTeed, true?
24 A. The research was transferred, yes. I
25 mean, all of it? I dont know the answer to that,

102
1 but obviously how to make the product and what went
2 into the product was, yes.
3 Q. Now, you indicated that there were
4 people who were on the Board of Directors of
5 CertainTeed for a period of time that were from
6 Turner and Newall.
7 Do you recall that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. For what period of time?
10 A. I dont know how long that was, sir.
11 Q. Do you know who the people were?
12 A. No, I cant give you their names.
13 Q. Do you know — do you know that those
14 people were also on the Board of Directors of Turner
15 and Newall?
16 A. I heard that.
17 Q. So, whatever information was known to
18 Turner and Newall would have been transferred or at
19 least known to CertainTeed, true?
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
21 the question.
22 THE WITNESS: No. I mean — I mean,
23 the people were — the people were one here and one
24 here, so I dont know what they brought with them,
25 but the people were.

103
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. Whatever those people who were on the
3 Board of Directors knew from Turner and Newall they
4 would have brought with them when they became Board
5 of Directors of CertainTeed, true?
6 A. They would have brought — whatever
7 knowledge they had would have come over.
8 Q. Now, do you recognize the name Ralph
9 Bateman?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was he a person who was on the
12 Turner and Newall Board of Directors and also served
13 on the Board of Directors of CertainTeed?
14 A. I dont know about Turner and Newall,
15 but I do know he was on CertainTeeds board –
16 CertainTeeds Product Corporation board.
17 Q. Do you know a man by the name of
18 Shepherd?
19 A. I know of — I knew of — I recognize
20 the name, yes.
21 Q. And he was also a Turner and Newall
22 executive, true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that Turner and Newall executive
25 also served on the board of CertainTeed, true?

104
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell me, sir, based upon your
3 research, what information Keasbey & Mattison
4 transferred concerning the dangers of asbestos to
5 CertainTeed?
6 A. I dont know what was transferred
7 specifically from Keasbey & Mattison.
8 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that
9 CertainTeed went through great efforts to ensure the
10 people that were working in its plants were being
11 protected from exposure to asbestos?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, when CertainTeed took over the
14 operation from Keasbey & Mattison, those efforts
15 were evident already, true?
16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. That Keasbey & Mattison, prior to
21 CertainTeed, had also taken great care to protect
22 the workers in its plants from exposure to asbestos,
23 true?
24 A. Yes. As best that I know.
25 Q. All right.

105
1 And am I correct, sir, that
2 CertainTeed, over the years, worked hard to improve
3 the safety measures that were in place for
4 protection against exposure to asbestos at the time
5 it purchased the Keasbey & Mattison assets?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When CertainTeed took over the
8 manufacture of the asbestos-cement pipe in 1962,
9 there were already engineering controls in the
10 plants to prevent exposure to asbestos to the
11 workers, true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 And those engineering controls
15 included ventilation?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And did those engineering controls
19 include hoods over where the asbestos-cement pipe
20 was being cut?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Were there areas in the plants in
24 1962 where — that were dedicated to the cutting of
25 asbestos-cement pipe?

106
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.
3 And the cutting occurred with a –
4 power equipment or non-power equipment?
5 A. Power equipment.
6 Q. Was there ever cutting that went on
7 inside the CertainTeed plant that did not involve
8 power equipment?
9 A. There could have been some incidental
10 cutting if somebody had to cut a small piece or
11 something.
12 Q. Now, the people who were in charge of
13 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the CertainTeed
14 plant in 1962 — how many people were there, do you
15 know?
16 A. In charge of the cutting?
17 Q. No. People that did the cutting, the
18 actual cutting.
19 A. I dont have any recollection.
20 Q. Was it five, ten, 20? Do you have
21 any idea?
22 A. I dont — I mean, it would depend on
23 how many lines were operating at the time. I dont
24 know.
25 Q. And the ventilation that was in

107
1 place, was it designed to remove all of the asbestos
2 fiber from the breathing zone of the person who was
3 cutting the pipe?
4 A. It was — it was designed to remove
5 the asbestos from the areas where asbestos would be
6 released, yes.
7 Q. Was it designed to protect not only
8 the person who was cutting the pipe, but other
9 people who would be in the vicinity of when the pipe
10 was cut?
11 A. It was designed to — to extract the
12 released fiber from that operation.
13 Q. There is no doubt, is there, that the
14 cutting of the CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe
15 released asbestos fiber into the atmosphere?
16 A. In the plants?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Thats a fact. There is no doubt.
19 Q. The people who were in charge of
20 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the plant, were
21 they provided any respiratory protection?
22 A. If needed, yes.
23 Q. So the people who were in charge of
24 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the plant, they
25 were provided both ventilation and respiratory

108
1 protection, true?
2 A. Well, the respiratory — they could
3 use a respirator if they wanted to, on their own,
4 and the requirement for a respirator was only if
5 there was some foul-up where the — the exhaust
6 system wasnt doing its job. Until it was
7 corrected they had to wear a respirator there.
8 Q. So, if you could see the asbestos in
9 the air, you should wear a respirator?
10 A. Well, I mean –
11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
12 the question.
13 THE WITNESS: — I dont know how to
14 answer that question. I mean, obviously if — if
15 the operation was not within the requirements at
16 that time period, you have to wear a respirator.
17 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
18 Q. And when you say a requirement of
19 that time period, what do you mean by that?
20 A. Well, I mean, prior to 1971 you had
21 the ACGIH requirements, and then after 1971 you had
22 OSHA.
23 Q. Well, sir, within a short period of
24 time after you took over the manufacturing plant
25 you, CertainTeed, were aware that the ACGIH

109
1 requirements would not protect workers, true?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thats not true?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You know you are under oath –
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. — when you make that statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were never provided any notice
10 before 1971 that the ACGIH requirements were not
11 protective of workers?
12 A. I didnt say that. I said, obviously
13 there was information and write-ups and material
14 that was so stating that, but the ACGIH requirements
15 were what they were, and it was our responsibility
16 to manufacture a product within the applicable
17 standards.
18 Q. But you knew, sir, did you not — in
19 fact, your own people had drawn conclusions that the
20 ACGIH requirements may not be protective of workers
21 health, as its relates to asbestos?
22 A. There were some people that had that
23 opinion.
24 Q. Within your own company? True, sir?
25 A. Id have to see that, but I believe

110
1 there were some people that had that, but the
2 companys position was that, if we manufactured a
3 product that was within the standards, thats what
4 our job was to do, and we — but we also, sir,
5 had — had internal standards less than what the
6 standards were.
7 Q. Thats my point.
8 Your internal standards for
9 protecting your own workers, sir, were less than the
10 ACGIH standards, were they not?
11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
12 the question. What do you mean by less?
13 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
14 Q. You can answer it, sir.
15 A. Well, we — we were trying to always
16 do better than what the standards were, whether it
17 be the ACGIH or whether it be the OSHA standards.
18 We were always trying to do better than the
19 standards.
20 Q. Yes, but, when it came to protecting
21 your own employees, you tried to do better than what
22 the ACGIH standards were, true?
23 A. When we were trying — when we were
24 trying to have our operations in the plant — we
25 were trying — always trying to do better than what

111
1 the standards were.
2 Q. And, in fact, there were standards
3 that you sought to achieve within the plant that
4 were below the ACGIH standards, true?
5 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
6 the question. What do you mean by below?
7 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
8 Q. You can answer it.
9 A. Well, I believe we had an internal
10 standard of trying to do two and a half million
11 particles per cubic foot of air, when the standard
12 was five.
13 Q. Yes, sir, the standard was five, but
14 what you used was 2.5, true?
15 A. We tried to — well, we certainly
16 tried to arrive at that figure in the plants, yes.
17 Q. And you even tried to keep it under
18 2.5, if you could, true?
19 A. Well, if you could have — if you
20 could have it — we tried to do the best we could to
21 be well within the standards and we had internal
22 standards.
23 Q. And at 2.5, sir, am I correct that
24 your hygienist advised you that you cant even see
25 asbestos in the air at 2.5?

112
1 A. The hygienist advised us? I mean,
2 maybe there is something in writing. I dont
3 remember that or recall that.
4 What year was that?
5 Q. Im asking you the questions, sir.
6 A. Well, I dont know — I dont
7 remember anything — seeing anything like that.
8 Q. Are you aware, sir, that you cannot
9 see — at 2.5 you cannot see asbestos dust in the
10 air?
11 A. Im not aware of it or not — I dont
12 know whether you can or you cant.
13 Q. Are you aware, sir, whether you can
14 see asbestos dust in the air at five million
15 particles per cubic foot?
16 A. I dont know whether you can or you
17 cant.
18 Q. So, was it a standard within the
19 CertainTeed plants that, if you could see asbestos
20 in the air, you should protect yourself?
21 A. Was it a standard?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I mean, our policy was, sir, that we
24 tried to protect everybody in the plant and there
25 were applicable standards at the time. We tried –

113
1 we had internal standards and we were trying to meet
2 those internal standards to the best of our ability.
3 Q. Yes, sir, and was it a warning sign,
4 If you see asbestos, wear a respirator? Was that
5 part of your policy?
6 A. A warning sign?
7 I dont remember that. I mean –
8 but, if there was an area, it was posted — there
9 was an area which was above the applicable standard,
10 then you were to wear a respirator until it was
11 corrected.
12 Q. Was it understood, sir, that, if a
13 worker could see asbestos in the air, that he should
14 protect himself or herself by wearing a respirator?
15 A. Understood by whom?
16 Q. By CertainTeed. By the employees at
17 CertainTeed.
18 A. It was understood, sir, that, if the
19 area was posted as being not within the applicable
20 standard, they were to wear a respirator.
21 Q. And what areas were posted as not
22 being within the applicable standard?
23 A. Well, it depends if there was a
24 foul-up at the — at that particular area. There
25 was times when there were areas that were generating

114
1 fibers with counts that were above the applicable
2 standard, so respirators were required in that area
3 until such time as it could be corrected.
4 Q. Well, sir, you have maintenance
5 people in your plants?
6 A. Yes, we do.
7 Q. Beginning in 62?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you make respirators
10 available to maintenance people?
11 A. When they had to go in and clean out
12 various areas where we knew the — that the release
13 would be such that would it would be above the
14 applicable standards, yes.
15 Q. What about the maintenance people who
16 would have to sweep up the dust that was left over
17 from the manufacturing process? Were they given
18 respirators?
19 A. I mean, I cant answer your question
20 any more than I have, sir. If there was an area
21 where you would generate fiber greater than the
22 applicable standard, you had to wear a respirator.
23 Q. So, when a maintenance person went in
24 with a broom, he would do one sweep and then they
25 would do a dust count and then theyd decide whether

115
1 he had to wear a respirator or not?
2 A. No, thats not — it didnt happen
3 that way.
4 MR. EDELL: I think that was a poor
5 attempt at humor.
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. So my question is, if somebody was
8 charged with sweeping up the asbestos fiber that had
9 fallen to the ground, were they provided
10 respirators?
11 A. Well, we tried to do — eventually we
12 evolved away from doing sweeping — dry sweeping.
13 We either used vacuums or we used wet removal of
14 anything on the floors.
15 But, if, in fact — I mean, counts
16 were done through the plant periodically and, if a
17 certain operation would necessitate the use of a
18 respirator, the respirators were worn or it was –
19 and it was corrected as soon as possible.
20 Q. Did you provide maintenance people
21 who were sweeping up the plant with respirators?
22 A. Maintenance people had access to the
23 respirators, and whether they needed one when they
24 were sweeping up the plant or not, I dont know.
25 Depending on when it was done.

116
1 Q. Okay.
2 Was there ever a time when you
3 provided maintenance people with respirators?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Maintenance people who just did
6 sweeping?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever supply respirators to
9 maintenance people who were charged with sweeping?
10 A. Well, I dont know — what
11 maintenance people were charged with sweeping?
12 Generally, the person who was at that station did
13 his own clean-up.
14 Q. And, when he did the clean-up, was –
15 did he wear a respirator?
16 A. There were counts done and, if the
17 clean-up required a respirator, he would wear one.
18 Q. Okay.
19 The people in packaging — in
20 shipping –
21 A. Packaging.
22 Q. — in shipping. Did you have a
23 shipping department?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were those — was there ventilation

117
1 equipment installed in the shipping department?
2 A. Well, shipping is generally out in
3 the — in the yard. I mean, thats where the
4 shipping takes place, in the yard.
5 Q. Well, was there a place from where
6 the pipe left the building and went onto a truck?
7 A. Yes, certainly.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That was from finishing going out to
10 the yard. There was res — excuse me — there was
11 ventilation in the finishing department.
12 Q. All right.
13 So, what went on in the finishing
14 department?
15 A. The pipe — the ends of the pipe were
16 machined so you could put a coupling on. The pipe
17 was also tested. The — and if the pipe was damaged
18 in any way, then it would be cut into shorter
19 lengths. So there were cut-off saws. Coupling
20 stock was cut, because the coupling stock was made
21 in 13-foot lengths, so they had to cut into the
22 lengths for the couplings, and it was also machined.
23 After it was — came out of the
24 finishing right there, it was put onto a — it was
25 put onto a palleting station and it was packaged at

118
1 that point, and then it was lifted up by a forklift
2 and it was taken out to the yard.
3 Q. The people who were working the
4 forklift, were they provided respirators?
5 A. Only if needed.
6 Q. Only if needed. What does that mean?
7 A. If there was anyplace that there was
8 a release of fiber that was greater than the
9 applicable standard, then they were required to wear
10 a respirator.
11 Q. So, if there was a release of fiber
12 above 2.5, the worker who was working the forklift
13 had to wear a respirator?
14 A. Well, 2.5 was never the applicable
15 standard; the applicable standard was five. And I
16 cant remember — I mean, its just not conceivable
17 that anybody wearing — using a forklift would have
18 anything greater than — in that neighborhood of a
19 5.0 million particles per cubic foot of air.
20 Q. So, then, why would you give them a
21 respirator?
22 A. I wasnt — you asked me the
23 question, sir, and Im saying — you asked me
24 specifics, what if, what if, what if.
25 Q. Did you ever give a forklift operator

119
1 a respirator who was transporting asbestos-cement
2 pipe?
3 A. I never saw — Ive never seen — the
4 many times I was in the plant, Ive never seen a
5 forklift driver driving around with a respirator.
6 Q. Was there a place within the plant
7 where the piping was stacked in preparation for
8 being shipped out?
9 A. Stacked in preparation to be shipped
10 out? Well, it went into — it went into packaging
11 right after it came down the finishing line. So it
12 was packaged and then — sure. I mean, did the
13 forklift take it right out? No. It was sitting
14 there for a while, and then the forklift would come
15 in and take it out.
16 Q. The packaging department, where was
17 that located?
18 A. In the finishing department.
19 Q. And where the product was packaged,
20 was there ventilation in place there?
21 A. It was — right at that specific
22 point I dont know. I mean, all the ventilation in
23 finishing was where the saws were actually doing the
24 cutting.
25 I mean, right at the packaging — I

120
1 dont believe there was a hood right there at
2 packaging because it wasnt required.
3 Q. Were people involved in the packaging
4 ever provided respirators?
5 A. Anybody in the plant, sir, was
6 provided a respirator if it was needed.
7 Q. So, if I was working in a plant in
8 1962, and I wanted to protect myself from exposure
9 to asbestos, there was a respirator available to me?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In addition to providing ventilation
12 and respirators to employees at the plant, you also
13 provided them medical examinations, did you not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that was beginning in 1962, true?
16 A. I dont know — I believe it was, but
17 Im not a hundred percent sure of that.
18 Q. And the purpose of the medical
19 examination was what?
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
21 the question. Are we talking about pre-employment
22 or post-employment?
23 MR. PLACITELLA: When somebody was in
24 the plant in 1962.
25 Did you give them pre-employment –

121
1 MR. EDELL: Same objection.
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q. Did you give them pre-employment
4 medical examinations?
5 A. I had one when I came to work for the
6 company, yes.
7 Q. In 1962 was CertainTeed providing
8 pre-employment medical examinations?
9 A. I dont know the answer to that.
10 Q. Were they providing post-employment
11 medical examinations?
12 A. Yes. I cant tell you what year it
13 started, but it was prior to me coming with the
14 company.
15 Q. And what was the purpose of the
16 post-employment medical examinations?
17 A. To make certain that there wasnt
18 any — any disease developing in the employee.
19 Q. And, when you say any disease
20 developing, what do you mean by that?
21 A. Any disease that would be
22 attributable to an operation in the plant.
23 Q. And what — were X-rays given?
24 A. Yes, there were X-rays, yes.
25 Q. And who was the person who, in the

122
1 Ambler plant, was in charge of the medical
2 examinations and the X-rays?
3 A. There was a — as I mentioned, there
4 was a doctor who was in a private practice, but
5 he — he also was the attending doctor for the
6 plant.
7 Q. And there came a time, did there not,
8 when the employees in a CertainTeed plant were
9 warned specifically about the dangers of asbestos?
10 True?
11 A. They were educated about what
12 asbestos could do or could not do and how to handle
13 it safely.
14 Q. And that was the day that CertainTeed
15 took over the plant, true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And whatever was known to CertainTeed
18 about the dangers of asbestos was made known to the
19 employees; nothing was held back, true?
20 A. We didnt hold anything back on
21 anybody.
22 Q. So, as soon as you knew it you made
23 sure the employees knew it, because it was important
24 to protect them, true?
25 A. Knew what?

123
1 Q. About — anything about the dangers
2 of asbestos that was not known before.
3 As soon as you knew it you made sure
4 the employees knew it; you didnt hold anything
5 back?
6 A. Well, I mean, I cant tell you every
7 piece of paper that came into the corporation was
8 circulated to the plant. I only can assure you that
9 there were safety meetings at the plant as to how to
10 operate in a closed environment with high-powered
11 saws and in an operation where asbestos was being
12 released –
13 Q. At some –
14 A. — major being released.
15 Q. At some point in time it became known
16 to CertainTeed that asbestos could cause cancer,
17 true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, when that information was known
20 to — made known to CertainTeed, that information
21 was transferred and provided to its employees, true?
22 A. The — the information they had on
23 asbestosis and the information they had on lung
24 cancer or meso was transmitted to the employees
25 through safety meetings, but they — the employees

124
1 knew why we had ventilation systems in the plant.
2 Q. And who ran these safety meetings?
3 A. It was generally conducted by the
4 plant manager.
5 Q. And who was that at Ambler?
6 A. What time period?
7 Q. During the 1960s.
8 A. I cant answer prior to when I came,
9 but, when I came to work for CertainTeed, I think it
10 was — Dan Maloney was the plant manager at Ambler.
11 Q. Now, when you said they had these
12 safety meetings, how did they occur? Did everybody
13 get called into a room at the same time? Were they
14 done by department? How was it done?
15 A. It was done where — it was up to the
16 plant manager to handle the safely meetings as he
17 saw fit and not necessarily inhibit the operations
18 of the plant.
19 So, I mean, was the plant shut down?
20 No.
21 Q. Was the information transferred by
22 word of mouth or was it also in writing?
23 A. It was primarily by — I mean, if
24 there was any specific information that was written
25 up by somebody in the company, that was obviously

125
1 handed out or posted, but I imagine most of the
2 safety meetings were by mouth.
3 Q. When the disease known as
4 mesothelioma caused by asbestos was made known to
5 CertainTeed, thats information they provided to
6 their employees, true?
7 MR. EDELL: Can I hear the question
8 read back, please?
9 (Pertinent portion of the record is
10 read.)
11 MR. EDELL: Im going to object to
12 the form of the question. When you say caused by,
13 you mean definitively proven? Do you mean that it
14 became a possibility?
15 MR. PLACITELLA: I mean caused by.
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. Do you know what that means? Caused?
18 Do you know what caused means, Mr. Ambler?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 When it was first known that asbestos
22 could cause mesothelioma –
23 MR. EDELL: Now you say could cause.
24 Its different than caused.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: Im asking a

126
1 different question. Why dont you switch the tape.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
3 12:10.
4 (Discussion is held off the record.)
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
6 at 12:11.
7 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
8 Q. When CertainTeed was advised that
9 asbestos was associated with mesothelioma, they
10 didnt hold that information back from their
11 employees; they told them, true?
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question. I dont know what you mean by
14 associated with.
15 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
16 Q. You can answer it.
17 A. When CertainTeed was — when
18 CertainTeed became aware that there was a possible
19 connection with asbestos and mesothelioma or any
20 disease, they shared that information.
21 Q. And they had safety meetings about
22 that?
23 A. They — well, they had safety
24 meetings about what asbestos could do and how it
25 could be harmful and safe ways of using asbestos –

127
1 or working with it. Excuse me. Working with it.
2 Q. And despite, sir, all of the measures
3 that were taken by CertainTeed to protect its
4 employees, they still got sick inside the plants,
5 did they not?
6 A. I dont know whether it was because
7 of CertainTeed or whether it was because of past
8 employment. I mean, somebody other than me has to
9 determine that.
10 Q. Well, when you say past employment,
11 what do you mean by that?
12 A. Well, they — most of the employees
13 had — had previous employments, as far as the
14 plants, with Keasbey & Mattison.
15 Q. Yes, but you told me that those same
16 protections were in place when you took over.
17 A. Well, you know, you said that and I
18 agreed with it, but we enhanced the protection as
19 soon as we took the plants over.
20 I cant tell you what happened in
21 Keasbey & Mattison as far as safety meetings or
22 anything else. I only can tell you what we did, and
23 we enhanced our systems when we took the plants
24 over.
25 Q. But there were protections in place

128
1 at the plant when you took over, true?
2 A. There was ventilation systems in
3 place.
4 Q. And respirators were available when
5 you took over, true?
6 A. They were available, yes.
7 Q. And, despite those protections, sir,
8 the — CertainTeed employees got sick, true?
9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
10 the question. When you say those protections –
11 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
12 Q. The protections that were in the
13 plant, including ventilation and respiratory
14 equipment. Despite those protections, the people
15 who worked in the plant still got sick, true?
16 MR. EDELL: When it was being run by
17 Keasbey & Mattison? You are talking about those
18 protections, right?
19 MR. PLACITELLA: He understands the
20 question.
21 MR. EDELL: I want to make sure
22 everybody understands the question.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: It doesnt matter if
24 everybody understands it. It only matters whether
25 he understood it.

129
1 Did you understand my question, sir?
2 Did you understand my question, sir?
3 MR. EDELL: Its important that there
4 is no ambiguity.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: No. Its important
6 that you dont coach the witness.
7 MR. EDELL: Im not coaching the
8 witness.
9 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
10 Q. All right. Let me ask the question
11 this way.
12 Despite the protections that were in
13 place when you took over, and the protections that
14 you improved, people in the plant still got sick,
15 true?
16 A. There — we had — obviously we had
17 Workmans Comp claims for asbestos disease, but I
18 dont know where it generated from — where the
19 disease originated from.
20 I can only tell you that, when we
21 took the plants over in 62, based on the
22 information I learned when I came to learn — came
23 to work for the company, we enhanced the systems.
24 I dont know how good the systems
25 were at Keasbey & Mattison. I just dont know. I

130
1 dont know what safety meetings they went through, I
2 dont know what work practices they had in place.
3 Q. Sir, even the person who was in
4 charge of protecting the employees at CertainTeed
5 got mesothelioma, isnt that true?
6 A. No, thats not true.
7 Q. Who was Mr. McGinley, sir?
8 A. John McGinley? He wasnt in charge
9 of protecting the employees.
10 Q. What was his job?
11 A. He was in charge of — depending –
12 when? Let me ask you that.
13 Q. Well, during the 1960s what was his
14 job, sir?
15 A. During the 60s he was an engineer.
16 Q. He was not involved in doing dust
17 counts, sir?
18 A. Dust counts?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No, I dont think John –
21 Q. What was his job as an engineer?
22 A. He was obviously working on process
23 equipment. He was also — he did work on dust –
24 dust — enhancing the dust collection systems. He
25 worked out at –

131
1 Q. He was in charge — he was involved
2 in health and safety, was he not, sir?
3 A. What do you mean? I dont understand
4 that question.
5 Q. He was involved in helping protect
6 the employees from exposure to asbestos, true?
7 A. He was in charge of — in
8 engineering — he was a part of the engineering –
9 plant engineering, to work on the dust collection
10 systems and also work in processing — processing
11 and the manufacturing of the product.
12 Q. So he would clearly understand what
13 was safe and not safe, in terms of the applicable
14 limits at the time, true?
15 A. Not necessarily. I mean, it was –
16 it was our understanding, if you could manufacture a
17 product within the applicable standards, you were
18 manufacturing a safe product.
19 Q. Well, was he exposed within or
20 without the applicable standards?
21 A. I dont know where John got his
22 exposure from. I just dont know where John got his
23 exposure from. He worked for Keasbey a long time.
24 Q. He — one of the things he was
25 involved with was making sure employees would not be

132
1 exposed to asbestos, true?
2 A. He was in charge of — of — for that
3 time period he was in engineering, and he was
4 working on the dust collection systems and he was
5 also — to enhance them, and he was also working on
6 process engineering.
7 Q. One of his objectives, sir, was to
8 prevent exposure to employees from asbestos, true?
9 A. One of his objectives was to put dust
10 collection systems or have plant operations where
11 youd be within the applicable standards.
12 Q. So one of his objectives, sir, was to
13 protect employees from exposure to asbestos, true?
14 A. I cant answer your question any
15 differently than I have done.
16 To make certain that you are running
17 an operation that was within the applicable
18 standards.
19 Q. So the employees would be healthy,
20 true?
21 A. If the — thats right. It was our
22 understanding, if you are within the applicable
23 standards, your employees are healthy, yes.
24 Q. And he got mesothelioma, did he not?
25 A. Yes, he did.

133
1 Q. Now, there came a time, did there
2 not, where it was suggested within the plant that
3 employees be specifically warned in writing on the
4 wall on a sign about cancer and asbestos, true?
5 A. There was a — well, OSHA, in 72,
6 proposed a sign with asbestos on it, and cancer,
7 yes.
8 Q. And that was discussed at
9 CertainTeed, true?
10 A. I dont know where all the
11 discussions took place at CertainTeed on that, I
12 wasnt a part of them, but obviously it was
13 discussed, because CertainTeed commented on it.
14 Q. And CertainTeed rejected that, true?
15 A. Well, they wanted the — the
16 gentleman that made the presentation to OSHA wanted
17 a different sign. He didnt object to the sign. He
18 objected to the wording.
19 Q. He objected to the word cancer,
20 true?
21 A. Thats correct, yes, but he did –
22 Q. Because he thought it would be –
23 MR. EDELL: Let him finish.
24 THE WITNESS: He did — and we can
25 get his testimony out, because obviously you have

134
1 it — he did say that harmful disease — he did
2 suggest harmful disease on the sign.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. CertainTeed refused to post a warning
5 about cancer in the workplace, true?
6 A. I dont know what you mean by
7 refused. I mean, that was his suggestion. I cant
8 really tell you what came out of OSHA on that, but,
9 whatever came out of OSHA, thats what CertainTeed
10 did.
11 Q. Did CertainTeed ever post in the
12 workplace a word about cancer and asbestos?
13 A. I dont — I cant verbatim sit here
14 and tell you what was on the sign, but, whatever
15 OSHA required, thats what CertainTeed put on their
16 signs.
17 Q. CertainTeed did not want to use the
18 word cancer because it was, quote, too scary,
19 close quote? Do you remember that?
20 A. Thats what the gentleman said, yes,
21 but he did say harmful disease.
22 Q. Is there a difference to you, sir,
23 between harmful disease and cancer?
24 A. Well, cancer is a harmful disease.
25 Q. Is gout a harmful disease, sir?

135
1 A. Sir, I dont know. Im not a doctor.
2 Q. Is diabetes a harmful disease?
3 A. Im not a doctor, sir.
4 Q. Is cancer a harmful disease?
5 A. Yes, cancer is a harmful disease.
6 Q. So, how would somebody know, when you
7 used the words harmful disease, that it meant
8 cancer?
9 A. I dont know how to answer that
10 question. I can only tell you what was being — it
11 was being discussed at the safety meetings what
12 the — what the risks of asbestos were in the plant.
13 Everybody in the plant knew what was happening.
14 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about
15 cancer?
16 A. They knew about the harmful effects
17 of asbestos if you didnt handle it properly.
18 Q. Including cancer?
19 A. Whatever — whatever — that was
20 discussed. Mesothelioma or lung cancer, or if you
21 were a heavy smoker or a smoker.
22 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about
23 mesothelioma, true?
24 A. Well, I mean, it was discussed. It
25 was discussed.

136
1 Q. It was discussed amongst everybody in
2 the plant — mesothelioma — true?
3 MR. EDELL: Can we get a time frame
4 here? I think we were going to break for lunch –
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Im almost done.
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about
8 mesothelioma as soon as CertainTeed knew about it,
9 true?
10 MR. EDELL: Knew about what?
11 MR. PLACITELLA: Mesothelioma.
12 MR. EDELL: That it was a
13 possibility?
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. That it was a possibility. That was
16 your testimony, right, sir?
17 A. Yes, CertainTeed became — that
18 became something that they were aware of in like the
19 mid-60s and it was discussed. These things were
20 discussed in –
21 Q. And everybody in the plant knew it?
22 A. I dont know the answer to that
23 question. I can tell you it was discussed.
24 Q. In the plant?
25 A. At meetings.

137
1 Q. With the workers?
2 A. With the workers.
3 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the
4 jury, when is the first time CertainTeed mentioned
5 the word mesothelioma in relation to the sale of
6 asbestos-containing cement pipe.
7 A. Well, its an entirely — a different
8 situation.
9 Q. Isnt it true, sir, that, although
10 you told the employees in the plant about
11 mesothelioma, you never mentioned the word
12 mesothelioma to a customer or a consumer ever?
13 A. Thats not true.
14 Q. When is the first time you mentioned
15 the word mesothelioma –
16 A. Oh.
17 Q. — to a customer or a consumer?
18 A. I may be wrong on that. We mentioned
19 the word cancer. We may not have mentioned the
20 meso. Id have to look at what we said on the label
21 and also what was in the work practices, but
22 cancer was used.
23 Q. Cancer was not used until 1985?
24 True, sir?
25 A. Cancer itself was not used until

138
1 1985, thats right.
2 Q. That was 20 years after you told the
3 workers in the plant, true?
4 A. But there — thats true, but there
5 were different situations. In the plant every piece
6 of pipe was being machined with a high-powered saw.
7 In the field the pipe was hardly ever — never
8 machined, to speak of, and it was hardly ever cut.
9 It was cut with manual ways.
10 Q. Sir, to be clear, you never told a
11 consumer or a customer anything about mesothelioma
12 ever?
13 A. Well, sir, Id have to look at what
14 we said in the work practices. I know cancer was
15 there. Whether the word mesothelioma was there or
16 not, I dont know the answer to that. We can look
17 at it. Im sure you have it.
18 Q. You are the person thats being
19 produced with the most knowledge about what you told
20 customers, and Im asking you, sir, as you sit here
21 today, can you say that you told customers about the
22 possibility of asbestos exposure causing
23 mesothelioma?
24 A. Ive answered your question.
25 MR. EDELL: He said he was — three

139
1 times he said he wasnt sure. He knows they talked
2 about cancer, but he wasnt sure whether they talked
3 about mesothelioma.
4 THE WITNESS: We talked about cancer.
5 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
6 Q. And, when you said cancer, you
7 meant mesothelioma?
8 A. Thats a part of cancer. Certainly.
9 Q. So why didnt you just use the word
10 mesothelioma?
11 A. I dont know the answer to that.
12 Q. Well, sir, you were involved in the
13 labeling decisions, were you not?
14 A. I was a part of it. I wasnt in
15 charge of it.
16 Q. So why –
17 A. Excuse me. By saying cancer, to me
18 you are telling the people what the risks are. Its
19 cancer. Mesothelioma is a cancer. Its just like
20 breast cancer or something like that. Its a
21 cancer.
22 Q. And, when you dont say cancer, you
23 are not telling them what the risks are, are you?
24 A. When you dont say cancer. Well,
25 we are talking about cancer now versus mesothelioma.

140
1 Q. No. Im talking about — you said
2 cancer and mesothelioma, in your mind, are one and
3 the same –
4 A. No.
5 Q. — in terms of warnings.
6 A. I said mesothelioma is a cancer.
7 Q. Okay.
8 And, when you are not telling
9 somebody that it causes cancer, you are not giving
10 them all the information, are you?
11 A. Well, we — I mean, if you are going
12 back earlier — obviously you are — we used it
13 could be harmful to your health. They were the
14 terms that were used.
15 Q. Thats different than cancer, isnt
16 it, sir?
17 A. It is, yes.
18 Q. So, the first time you ever used the
19 word cancer was 1985, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What prevented you from using the
22 word cancer prior to 1985?
23 A. Nothing, other than the fact, as I
24 mentioned, we felt that, with our recommended work
25 practices, there wasnt a risk.

141
1 Q. Well, sir, isnt it a fact that you
2 refused to put the word cancer on the pipe in 1972
3 because you thought it was going to hurt sales?
4 A. On the pipe?
5 Q. Correct.
6 A. Yes, but I believe that the reference
7 was for ingestion, not for inhalation, so its a
8 totally different story.
9 Q. You were asked to put the word
10 cancer on the pipe in 1972, true?
11 A. By whom?
12 Q. It was discussed within your company
13 whether to put the word cancer on the pipe in
14 1972, true?
15 A. Well, it was a part of the OSHA –
16 proposed OSHA regulations at that point in 1972, but
17 it had to deal with the ingestion, not inhalation.
18 Q. It was rejected because it would hurt
19 sales, true?
20 A. Because — well, it was recommended
21 not to do it because of the ingestion issue. The
22 ingestion issue was not an issue.
23 Q. Sir, it was — you fought putting the
24 word cancer on the pipe in 1972 because it would
25 hurt sales, true?

142
1 A. Because the cancer related to
2 ingestion.
3 Q. Did you tell OSHA, in 1972, that, if
4 they made you put cancer on the pipe, it was going
5 to make the product unsalable?
6 A. I answered your question, sir. Yes,
7 because it was referring to the ingestion issue.
8 Q. And then, in 1985, you finally put
9 cancer on the pipe, correct?
10 MR. EDELL: In a different context.
11 THE WITNESS: In a different context,
12 exactly.
13 MR. EDELL: Lets break for lunch.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Its a good time.
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
16 12:28 p.m.
17 (Discussion is held off the record.)
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
19 at 1:17 p.m.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ambler.
22 One thing before I move on. In the
23 course of your preparing for this deposition or
24 other depositions, have you ever reviewed the actual
25 dust counts that were done inside the plants?

143
1 A. Ive seen some, yes.
2 Q. In what context did you see them?
3 A. Well, primarily in testimony at
4 depositions or — I cant remember if it was at
5 trial, but primarily depositions Ive seen them.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: I would make a
7 request at this point for the production of any dust
8 counts produced concerning inside the plant by
9 CertainTeed in any other case.
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q. Am I correct that there were people
12 who worked at CertainTeed who brought with them, at
13 the time of the changeover from Keasbey & Mattison
14 to CertainTeed, knowledge about the relationship
15 between asbestos and cancer?
16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 THE WITNESS: I dont know the answer
19 to that question.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. Have you seen documents during the
22 course of your preparation indicating that people
23 who worked for CertainTeed were informed about the
24 relationship between asbestos and cancer prior to
25 the transfer of assets from Keasbey & Mattison to

144
1 CertainTeed?
2 A. Can you repeat — read that back to
3 me, please. Im sorry.
4 (Pertinent portion of the record is
5 read.)
6 A. Documents that were written prior –
7 dated prior to 62?
8 Q. Correct.
9 A. Well, Ive never seen anything in
10 preparation — that I can recall, in preparation for
11 a deposition.
12 I mean, during a deposition Ive seen
13 letters, but I cant remember what dates were on
14 them.
15 Q. You are aware of a person who worked
16 at the Ambler plant by the name of Mr. Horowitz,
17 correct?
18 A. I — oh, I know of him. I dont know
19 whether he worked at the Ambler plant or not. I
20 dont believe he did, but I could be wrong on that.
21 Q. Who was Mr. Horowitz?
22 A. He was the safety supervisor, in
23 charge of safety for CertainTeed Corporation.
24 Q. And prior to that for Keasbey &
25 Mattison, correct?

145
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: So lets have this
3 marked P Ambler 7.
4 (Exhibit Ambler 7 is marked for
5 identification.)
6 MR. EDELL: My only objection at this
7 juncture is that its a highlighted document.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Ill substitute it,
9 but I want him to focus –
10 MR. EDELL: And I dont know what the
11 last page is.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: I think thats how
13 it was produced at Doris Fegans deposition.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. Im going to show you whats been
16 marked Ambler 7, which is a June 8th, 1961 minutes
17 of the Asbestos Textile Institutes Air Hygiene and
18 Manufacturing Committee.
19 Have you ever seen that before?
20 A. I dont recall it, sir.
21 Q. In attendance is Mr. Horowitz,
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Mr. Horowitz, at that time, in
25 1961, was the safety director in charge of Keasbey &

146
1 Mattison, true?
2 A. I dont know what his title was at
3 Keasbey & Mattison, but he was somewhat involved
4 in — he was involved in safety, yes.
5 Q. And it says — where is he from?
6 A. Ambler, Pennsylvania.
7 Q. And does this document talk about –
8 A. Excuse me. Im sorry. It says –
9 Keasbey & Mattison is in Ambler, Pennsylvania.
10 Q. Correct.
11 A. I dont know where Leon lived.
12 Q. And does the document discuss the
13 fact that there was a meeting where the relationship
14 between asbestos and cancer was raised?
15 MR. EDELL: Im going to object to
16 the question. This document — this witness has no
17 familiarity with this document whatsoever.
18 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
19 Q. Answer the question.
20 A. And the question was? Excuse me.
21 Q. Is the relationship between asbestos
22 and cancer referred to in this document?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And presumably any information that

147
1 Mr. Horowitz had about asbestos and cancer he would
2 have brought with him as the safety director of
3 CertainTeed, true?
4 MR. EDELL: Im going to object to
5 the form of that question. You are asking the
6 witness to hypothesize –
7 MR. PLACITELLA: No, Im not.
8 MR. EDELL: Yes, you are.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: No, Im not.
10 MR. EDELL: You didnt give him any
11 directions in the beginning –
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Its an objection
13 you are not allowed to make.
14 MR. EDELL: No. Im allowed to tell
15 him that hes not supposed to guess.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: You are not allowed
17 to make that kind of objection and you know it.
18 MR. EDELL: I think I am.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: No, youre not.
20 MR. EDELL: Since you didnt give him
21 that instruction –
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Hes been through 80
23 depositions. He know the rules.
24 MR. EDELL: I have no idea. I wasnt
25 at any of those depositions.

148
1 MR. PLACITELLA: So, you never read
2 one, Mr. Edell?
3 MR. EDELL: I read some, but I didnt
4 see in — anybody state Dont guess.
5 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
6 Q. Is it your belief, sir, that whatever
7 information Mr. Horowitz had about asbestos and
8 cancer, he would have brought with him when he took
9 over as safety director for CertainTeed?
10 A. Its my belief, sir, that he would
11 have — if he would have retained any information
12 that he heard or read of somebodys opinion and –
13 he certainly would have brought that, no matter
14 where he went.
15 Q. Of course.
16 Now, you are aware that — I think
17 you mentioned before Mr. Barr, Neil Barr?
18 A. No, sir, I didnt mention him.
19 Q. Do you know who he is?
20 A. Barr — not offhand, no.
21 Q. Do you know what the Asbestos Textile
22 Institute was?
23 A. Id have to make an assumption.
24 CertainTeed was not a member of the Asbestos Textile
25 Institute.

149
1 Q. But various members — or various
2 employees and executives of CertainTeed were at one
3 time representative and attended meetings at the
4 Asbestos Textile Institute, true?
5 A. I dont know — I know Leon went to a
6 couple meetings after he came with CertainTeed, but
7 I dont know who else went.
8 Q. Did you know the director of sales
9 went?
10 A. To the American Textile Institute?
11 Q. Correct.
12 A. Director of sales for the pipe
13 division?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. No, I did not know that. Can you
16 show me that?
17 Q. Well get there.
18 Now –
19 A. Im not seeing any documents where
20 the director of sales went, but I dont know.
21 Q. Well get there in due time, okay?
22 Are you aware as to whether Mr.
23 McGinley, who ultimately died of mesothelioma while
24 employed by CertainTeed, attended meetings of the
25 Asbestos Textile Institute?

150
1 A. I believe Ive seen John — excuse
2 me — Johns name on the attendance list of one
3 meeting. I believe I have seen that.
4 Q. And that was a confidential meeting
5 where they discussed cancer, was it not?
6 A. I dont know. Id have to read it.
7 Q. And this was Mr. McGinley who I asked
8 you before whether he was ever involved in health
9 and safety? Wasnt that the capacity he attended
10 the Asbestos Textile Institute meetings?
11 A. I dont know what capacity — he
12 attended it in his capacity with the company.
13 Q. And do you know, as you sit here
14 today, whether he attended meetings himself where
15 the subject of asbestos and cancer was discussed?
16 A. I dont know what was discussed at
17 that meeting that I recall seeing his name on the
18 attendance list.
19 Q. Do you recall going over that in
20 prior depositions and being asked those very
21 questions?
22 A. I may have.
23 Q. Just to make it easy for you, why
24 dont you take that.
25 MR. EDELL: I dont know what hes

151
1 going to do with it, so…
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Why dont we mark
3 that next.
4 (Exhibit Ambler 8 is marked for
5 identification.)
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. You have in front of you a prior
8 deposition you gave in the McNabb case, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was not that long ago? It
11 was in 2009, the same year that we are in, correct?
12 January 13, 2009?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were asked questions by Mr.
15 Madeksho (sic). Do you recall him? A Texas accent,
16 young guy?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And would you look at Page 112 of
19 your deposition, sir.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And does that refresh your memory,
22 sir, as to whether you had testified, back in
23 January this year, about whether Mr. McGinley went
24 to an Asbestos Textile Institute meeting where the
25 subject of asbestos and cancer was raised?

152
1 A. Well, I answered that question. I
2 believe John did go to an American Textile Institute
3 meeting.
4 Q. Where the subject of asbestos and
5 cancer was raised?
6 A. Well, I think that — did he not show
7 me a letter and he was asking me –
8 Q. Yes, sir, and you read the letter.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And it said, under Asbestosis and
11 cancer, the second paragraph, Does that indeed
12 read The British and South Africans have associated
13 lung cancer and asbestosis –
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. — since 35? It says, Yes,
16 correct?
17 A. I read the letter and said Yes.
18 Q. And that was a meeting that Mr.
19 McGinley was at, true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And thats the same Mr. McGinley who
22 ultimately died of mesothelioma after working for
23 many years for CertainTeed, true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, soon after –

153
1 A. Are we done with this?
2 Q. For now. Why dont you just keep it
3 there because I may ask you more questions. So just
4 put it off to the side, if you want.
5 Soon after — I even highlighted all
6 the things I might ask him about. There you go.
7 Soon after CertainTeed took over the
8 asbestos-cement pipe business they sent Mr.
9 Horowitz, as the safety director, to the conference
10 hosted and organized by a Dr. Irving Selikoff, true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And after he went to that meeting, at
13 the request of CertainTeed, he generated a memo, did
14 he not, discussing what he heard and what his
15 recommendations were as a result of that conference?
16 A. There was a memo prepared, yes.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Why dont we mark
18 this next.
19 (Exhibit Ambler 9 is marked for
20 identification.)
21 MR. PLACITELLA: This is not one of
22 the exhibits you went over with him, Marc?
23 MR. EDELL: Its very difficult to
24 read.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: Best copy you gave

154
1 me. Actually, I had to get it from Shep Hauptman.
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q. Sir, while Mr. Edell is looking at
4 the document that weve just put in front of you,
5 youve seen that document before, have you not?
6 A. I didnt look at it, sir.
7 Q. You didnt look at it at all?
8 A. No, I havent looked at it. I just
9 handed it to –
10 Q. Well, here is a copy. Tell me if
11 youve seen this document before. Without my
12 highlighting, of course.
13 A. I have seen this through depositions.
14 I never saw it while I was working for the company.
15 Q. But was reviewing this document part
16 of the research you did in preparing for testifying
17 in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Had you ever reviewed this document
20 in preparation for testimony in any other case?
21 A. Not that Im aware of.
22 Q. Do you know whether this document is
23 part of the corporate records of CertainTeed
24 Corporation?
25 A. I dont know that one way or the

155
1 other.
2 Q. Youve seen this document, however,
3 many times in depositions, have you not?
4 A. I have seen it many times, yes.
5 Q. And this document is a document that
6 was authored by Mr. Horowitz, true?
7 A. Well, I dont have the document in
8 front of me, sir.
9 Yes. Yes, it was.
10 Q. And it was authored by Mr. Horowitz
11 while he was in charge of safety for the CertainTeed
12 Corporation, true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the date of the document is
15 November 16, 1964?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the subject is Conference on
18 Biological Effects of Asbestos, New York Academy of
19 Sciences, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And its to a number of people. One
22 is a Mr. M.S. Davis, Jr. Do you know who he is?
23 A. I knew who he was.
24 Q. Who was he?
25 A. He was head of the pipe division at

156
1 that time.
2 Q. And the next one is cc to Mr. R.L. –
3 is that Louis?
4 A. Lance.
5 Q. Lance. And who was he?
6 A. He — I dont know what his position
7 was, but he worked in — in — when I came to work
8 for the company he was working in the Ambler
9 technical offices.
10 Q. And then there was a Mr. J.L.
11 Anderson.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who was he?
16 A. At that point I believe Jack was in
17 engineering — central engineering.
18 Q. What was his job? Was he in charge?
19 A. I dont — I dont know whether Jack
20 was in charge or not.
21 Q. Was Anderson somebody that was
22 involved in ensuring that workers were not exposed
23 to asbestos through the use of ventilation?
24 A. He was — he had responsibility
25 for — just like John McGinley did, for dust

157
1 collection systems and also worked with process
2 equipment.
3 Q. And who is Mr. Shaw? Is that Dr.
4 Shaw?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And who is he?
7 A. I dont know. Never heard of him
8 until these depositions and did not know him.
9 Q. And this memo pertains to the pipe
10 division, true?
11 A. Well, it pertains to — to
12 CertainTeed and it pertains to asbestos, and the
13 pipe division was in asbestos, obviously.
14 Q. Well, it didnt go to the person who
15 was in charge of the siding; it went to the person
16 who was in charge of the pipe, right?
17 A. Well, I dont know who Dr. Shaw was
18 and what his responsibilities were.
19 Q. Well, he was ccd. Im talking about
20 Mr. Davis, the one who was principally the
21 addressee.
22 He was in charge of the pipe
23 division, true?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. Okay.

158
1 So, the concerns raised in this memo
2 related to the pipe division; not the shingle
3 division, true?
4 A. Well, I dont know if this got to
5 the — probably thats right.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Now, does it also say in the first
8 paragraph that a Dr. Shaw did his own report?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does it indicate that Mr. Horowitz,
11 as safety director for CertainTeed, had a meeting
12 with representatives of the Turner Brothers Asbestos
13 Company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that one of the things that was
16 discussed was that the Turner Brothers Asbestos
17 Company was way ahead of the United States, in terms
18 of knowledge of asbestos and disease, true? And how
19 to prevent it?
20 A. What was that question again?
21 (Pertinent portion of the record is
22 read.)
23 Well, if we are just referring to the
24 first paragraph, thats the Turner Brothers
25 opinion, that they were ahead of the United States.

159
1 Q. Right.
2 And this was the same Turner Brothers
3 who had members of the Board of Directors on
4 CertainTeed, true?
5 A. I dont know the answer to that
6 question. Turner-Newall were the ones that had
7 the — and I dont know the connection between
8 Turner Brothers and Turner-Newall.
9 Q. You dont know that they are the same
10 company?
11 A. I dont know if they are or they
12 arent.
13 Q. Assuming that they are one and the
14 same company, if Turner Brothers were way ahead of
15 the rest of the United States, then CertainTeed
16 would have been way ahead of the United States
17 because they had a Board of Directors — people from
18 Turner Brothers on their Board of Directors, true?
19 A. There is no way I can answer that
20 question. Number 1, I dont know exactly what the
21 Turner Brothers — what their relation was with the
22 two people that were on the board, I dont know what
23 the relationship was between them and Turner-Newall,
24 and all I can say is this was their opinion.
25 Q. Did they tell Mr. Horowitz in their

160
1 meeting that in England the Board of Insurance had
2 accepted asbestosis as a cause of lung cancer going
3 back to 1931?
4 A. Thats what this letter states.
5 Q. Did they tell Mr. Horowitz that the
6 dust sampling and counting methods that were being
7 used in the United States were inadequate because
8 they did not count all of the asbestos fibers?
9 A. Where are you reading that from, sir?
10 Im sorry.
11 Q. Paragraph Number 5.
12 A. That was their opinion, yes.
13 Q. And then Mr. Horowitz goes on to
14 relate to the executives at CertainTeed what
15 actually transpired at the conference itself, true?
16 A. Where — he — you are taking that
17 from this first page?
18 Q. Yes, sir.
19 A. He –
20 Q. The bottom paragraph.
21 A. Hes relating to Mr. Davis and the
22 copyholders as to what was presented at this
23 conference.
24 Q. Yes, thats what Im saying.
25 We agree?

161
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what he says is that there
3 appears to be an accumulation of evidence of the
4 association of asbestos with cancer, correct?
5 MR. EDELL: It would be a lot
6 easier — this is a really bad copy — if you –
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you have a better
8 copy?
9 MR. EDELL: — if you point –
10 MR. PLACITELLA: No, Im serious. If
11 you have one, Ill be happy to substitute it.
12 MR. EDELL: I dont have a better
13 copy with me.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
15 MR. EDELL: If you want to refer to a
16 particular paragraph, it would go much quicker.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Im still on the
18 bottom paragraph, first page.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Concerning the conference itself,
21 there appears to be an accumulation of evidence of
22 the association of asbestos with cancer?
23 A. Thats what was reported at the
24 conference.
25 Q. Thats what he learned and thats

162
1 what he reported back to the executives at
2 CertainTeed, true?
3 MR. EDELL: This is what the document
4 says.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, thats what he
6 heard said at the conference, and he wrote a letter
7 to the individuals who we discussed earlier.
8 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
9 Q. And then, if we go to the second
10 page, he talks about things he heard at the
11 conference that, if proved to be true, would hurt
12 the asbestos-cement pipe industry, true?
13 First full paragraph.
14 MR. EDELL: First full paragraph
15 says –
16 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
17 Q. Some of the observations. Do you
18 see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. EDELL: If proved conclusive,
22 would affect.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Would affect our
24 industry.
25 MR. EDELL: Thats what it says.

163
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. Your industry being the
3 asbestos-cement pipe industry, true?
4 MR. EDELL: It didnt say hurt. It
5 said it would affect them, correct?
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. Affect, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Well, did you think that this
10 information was going to help or hurt the industry?
11 A. What information?
12 Q. About asbestos causing cancer.
13 A. Its certainly going to hurt the
14 industry if, in fact, you are not doing anything
15 to –
16 MR. EDELL: Im sorry.
17 THE WITNESS: — if you are not doing
18 anything to control the situation.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Okay.
21 So what he says is, this is what was
22 discussed and it could hurt our industry, and then
23 he goes on to talk about what was discussed, true?
24 MR. EDELL: Thats not what he says.
25 Objection to the form of the question.

164
1 THE WITNESS: It would affect our
2 industry.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. Meaning –
5 A. Thats Leons opinion.
6 Q. Right. Meaning, it could hurt the
7 industry, true?
8 A. Well, would or could.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Thats his opinion, yes.
11 Q. And the first thing it talks about
12 is, Number 1, malignant mesothelioma. Do you see
13 that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what does it say in Number 1?
16 A. It says what it says.
17 Q. What does it say, sir? Could you
18 read it?
19 MR. EDELL: No, hes not here to read
20 aloud into the record what the document says.
21 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
22 Q. Ill read it. You tell me if I read
23 it correctly, okay?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. EDELL: No, hes not going to

165
1 tell you whether you read it correctly. If you have
2 a question about the document, ask him the question.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Im going to ask him
4 a question.
5 MR. EDELL: Okay.
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. It says, Malignant mesothelioma,
8 cancer associated with asbestos, has been found in
9 cancers with no occupational exposure to asbestos.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know whether this is the first
13 time that CertainTeed was informed about the
14 relationship between mesothelioma and
15 non-occupational exposure to asbestos?
16 MR. EDELL: And how is that going to
17 hurt CertainTeed?
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats an improper
19 objection, sir. Im asking him a question.
20 THE WITNESS: And the question is,
21 again? Im sorry.
22 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
23 Q. Was this the first time that
24 CertainTeed was made aware of an association between
25 mesothelioma and a non-occupational exposure to

166
1 asbestos?
2 A. I dont know the answer to that
3 question.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. By the way, its not in cancers;
6 its in cases.
7 Q. I dont know what you are talking
8 about.
9 A. Well, when you read it –
10 MR. EDELL: You read it improperly.
11 THE WITNESS: — you said in
12 cancers, and its in cases.
13 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
14 Q. It says, Malignant mesothelioma,
15 cancer associated with asbestos, doesnt it?
16 MR. EDELL: Has been found in
17 cases, he said. You said cancers.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, okay.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. In cases with no occupational
21 exposure to asbestos. We agree?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 There have been included animals who
25 lived in areas surrounding a factory or a mine.

167
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that information ever made known
4 to CertainTeed before this document was written, if
5 you know?
6 A. I dont know.
7 Q. People in the area may be affected
8 by waste dumps outside a plant or mine.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that the first time that this
12 information was given to CertainTeed, to your
13 knowledge?
14 A. The first time information has been
15 given to CertainTeed about observations made at this
16 conference?
17 Q. No.
18 About the people getting mesothelioma
19 who were around waste dumps with asbestos.
20 A. I dont know if there was any other
21 information available or not prior to this memo.
22 Q. Well, this was important to
23 CertainTeed, was it not, because you, in fact, at
24 Ambler, had your own waste dump next to the plant,
25 didnt you?

168
1 A. We had a dump at the plant, yes.
2 Q. In fact, you had so much asbestos in
3 that dump that a scientist at one point said that it
4 could qualify as its own asbestos mine, isnt that
5 true?
6 A. I dont — Ive never seen that.
7 Q. Number 4 says, The suspicion that
8 asbestos fibers accumulate at the base of the lung
9 and small doses can thereby have a cumulative
10 affect.
11 Do you see that? Do you see Number
12 4?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 Is this –
16 A. I say, yes, I can see it.
17 Q. All right.
18 To your knowledge, did CertainTeed
19 have any information about this subject prior to the
20 writing of this memo?
21 A. I dont know the answer to that one
22 way or the other.
23 MR. EDELL: He wasnt employed by the
24 company –
25 MR. PLACITELLA: He is the person,

169
1 sir, thats being produced with the most knowledge
2 concerning CertainTeeds historical knowledge of
3 the dangers of asbestos.
4 MR. EDELL: Youre right. Youre
5 right. I apologize.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. And, so,
7 your –
8 MR. EDELL: I apologize.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: — your objection is
10 improper.
11 MR. EDELL: I said I apologize.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Your apology is
13 noted and accepted. Just dont do it again.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. It says, in Number 5, Increased
16 evidence that insulation workers and laggers with
17 low exposure to asbestos dust are subject to
18 mesothelioma.
19 Do you see that?
20 A. I see what was written here, yes.
21 Q. Do you know, prior to the writing of
22 this memo, whether there was information in the
23 possession of CertainTeed concerning the fact or the
24 thought that low exposure to asbestos dust can cause
25 mesothelioma?

170
1 A. I dont know one way or the other.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that Dr.
3 Horowitz cared about the health and safety of the
4 workers at the CertainTeed plant?
5 A. Oh, yes, I — there is no doubt in my
6 mind that Leon was — had — he had — did you say
7 concern?
8 Q. Concern.
9 A. He had — he had –
10 Q. He cared, I said.
11 A. He cared, yes.
12 Q. He was in earnest in his job, would
13 you agree with me?
14 A. Oh, yes, I think he was. As far as I
15 know. I never met the man. He left there the year
16 after I came with the company.
17 Q. But everything you know and
18 everything youve read would indicate that he took
19 his job seriously and he cared about the employees.
20 Would you agree with that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And that he was basically a pretty
24 good guy, by all accounts?
25 A. Sir, I never met him.

171
1 Q. Well, whats his reputation in the
2 company?
3 A. That — I dont want to get into
4 that. Its nobodys concern. I dont know — I
5 dont — I didnt speak to enough people to find out
6 what his reputation was.
7 Q. His reputation was good enough that
8 he held the position of safety — head of safety for
9 many years, true?
10 MR. EDELL: It may just be because he
11 was a good doctor.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Hes not a doctor.
13 MR. EDELL: You just called him a
14 doctor.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Is that an
16 objection? Okay.
17 MR. EDELL: Assuming you were
18 truthful with us.
19 Whats the question?
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. Yes, sir?
22 A. Is there a question pending? Im
23 sorry. I didnt mean to avoid you. Im sorry.
24 What was the question?
25 Q. As a result of going to the

172
1 conference, would you agree that the safety
2 director, Horowitz, had some concerns that he
3 expressed directly to the executives at CertainTeed?
4 A. He reported to the — from this
5 conference he reported to the executives of the pipe
6 group the concerns that were raised at this meeting.
7 Q. And, as the safety director, he
8 recommended that certain actions be taken?
9 A. On the next page he did, yes.
10 Q. And he said, We need answers to some
11 questions, did he not?
12 A. He said there needs to be answers to
13 some questions, right, and he listed some questions.
14 Q. And he has, what, 12 questions in the
15 beginning?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The first question he says we need
18 answers to is, From the pathological point of view,
19 what is an asbestos fiber and how its to be
20 positively identified.
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell me what steps
24 CertainTeed took to answer that question?
25 A. I think it was somewhat of a

173
1 rhetorical question, sir, and I think it was meant
2 to — for the industry, because later on in the note
3 he — he specifically said what he thought the
4 corporation should do.
5 Q. Well, was the corporation part of the
6 industry?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So, can you tell me what steps
9 CertainTeed took to answer Question Number 1?
10 A. I dont know what steps they took,
11 sir. I mean, they were working within the industry,
12 and I believe — again, I mean, this to me is — he
13 was saying what the industry should do and then on
14 the next page he said what CertainTeed should do.
15 Q. He asks, One of the things they need
16 to know is the gravitational effect of asbestos
17 fiber in the lung, correct?
18 A. Thats what the industry should be
19 doing, yes.
20 Q. And what did CertainTeed do to answer
21 that question, sir?
22 A. I dont know what specifically they
23 did. They worked with the industry, they joined
24 associations to make certain that everything was
25 being done.

174
1 Q. And what was the answer to that
2 question, sir, the gravitational effect of asbestos
3 fiber in the lung? What answer did CertainTeed come
4 up with?
5 A. I dont know what answer they came up
6 with, if any at all.
7 Q. The truth of the matter is, sir,
8 nothing was done, true?
9 A. I didnt answer — I didnt say that.
10 Q. Have you seen anything in your review
11 of any material in preparation for todays
12 deposition or any other deposition that would
13 indicate that CertainTeed did anything to answer
14 this question?
15 A. I dont know what CertainTeed did. I
16 have not seen anything.
17 Q. The effect of duration of fiber in
18 the lung.
19 Thats the third question he wanted
20 answered, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you seen anything in any of the
23 material that youve ever reviewed on behalf of
24 CertainTeed to indicate whether they answered –
25 made an endeavor to answer this question?

175
1 A. Ive not seen anything in writing.
2 Q. Studies to see if different types of
3 asbestos result in different types of cancer, if at
4 all.
5 Thats the fourth question, is it
6 not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did
9 to answer this question?
10 A. They worked within the industry and
11 they worked in conjunction with OSHA trying to get
12 answers to all the questions.
13 Q. And what was the answer to that
14 question, sir?
15 A. I dont know of any answers that came
16 out of that question.
17 Q. Have you seen anything to indicate
18 that CertainTeed did anything to answer this
19 question?
20 A. I just know what they did as a
21 corporation. We worked with the various
22 associations and we tried to get all the answers we
23 could concerning the asbestos situation.
24 Q. Yes, but this is your health — this
25 is your person in charge of health and safety, and

176
1 hes saying these are questions you need answered,
2 right?
3 A. Hes saying the industry needs to be
4 answering these.
5 Q. And you are part the industry?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. So my question is, what did you do,
8 CertainTeed, to answer Question Number 4 concerning
9 whether different types of asbestos result in
10 different types of cancer?
11 A. The only way I can answer your
12 question, sir, is that CertainTeed worked with the
13 industry and they worked with various doctors that
14 were working with the industry to make certain the
15 information that was gathered was correct and
16 valuable.
17 Q. So what was the answer to that
18 question?
19 A. I dont know the answer to that
20 question.
21 Q. But you are the person here on behalf
22 of CertainTeed thats supposed to know that, isnt
23 that true, sir?
24 A. Well, Im here — sir, Im here to
25 try to answer your questions to the best of my

177
1 ability. If you think there is somebody that can do
2 a better job than me –
3 Q. No, sir.
4 A. Wait, wait. Let me finish.
5 — then you should contact
6 CertainTeed and find out.
7 Q. No, sir.
8 A. Wait a second.
9 Im here — Im here to try to answer
10 your questions to the best of my ability. Whether
11 Im the best that there is, I dont know, but the
12 litter is kind of small, and I dont know whether
13 you got the pick today, but you got what you got and
14 Im just doing the best job I can.
15 Q. I appreciate that, sir, but I wasnt
16 the one that selected you.
17 A. I know, but, if you have an issue
18 with me or a problem with me — well, wait.
19 Q. I have no problem with you, sir.
20 A. Okay, but if you –
21 Q. I have no problem with you, sir.
22 A. Oh, I think you do, sir.
23 Q. No, I do not.
24 A. Let me just finish, please.
25 Q. I do not.

178
1 A. Let me just finish. If you –
2 Q. You can make whatever statements you
3 want, sir.
4 A. Thank you.
5 If you have a problem with me
6 answering your questions, then Id suggest you bring
7 it to CertainTeeds attention and maybe they can
8 find somebody else. Im doing the best job I can.
9 Q. I appreciate that, sir. Thats not
10 my issue.
11 Sir, have you seen any information in
12 the files of CertainTeed to indicate that they ever
13 answered the question about whether there were
14 different types of asbestos resulting in different
15 types of cancer?
16 A. I have not seen anything.
17 Q. Five, The relationship of smoking
18 and air pollution, et cetera, to asbestos dust and
19 to cancer.
20 Do you see that? Have you seen
21 anything in the files of CertainTeed to indicate
22 whether CertainTeed ever answered this question?
23 A. There was some work done, and I dont
24 know where I saw that work, but there was some work
25 done as far as the synergistic effect of smoking and

179
1 asbestos on lung cancer, and there were some
2 no-smoking policies that were implemented.
3 Q. Yes, sir.
4 Was there ultimately a conclusion
5 drawn by CertainTeed that there was, in fact, a
6 synergistic effect between smoking and asbestos
7 exposure in relation to lung cancer?
8 A. Yes, we believed there was.
9 Q. And that was something that you
10 warned your employees about, true?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And thats something that you warned
13 consumers about, true?
14 A. Consumers? Not that I know of, in
15 particular, because — I mean, its somewhat of a
16 different situation, as I tried to explain to you
17 before.
18 Q. The possible other causes of
19 mesothelioma other than asbestos.
20 Did you see anything in your review
21 of any materials or any of the records of
22 CertainTeed to indicate that this question was ever
23 answered?
24 A. Ive seen some peoples opinion, and
25 I cant direct you to them, but I have seen peoples

180
1 opinion where they said that meso could be
2 contracted from things other than asbestos.
3 Q. And was that the opinion of
4 CertainTeed, sir?
5 A. CertainTeed — they were of the
6 opinion that meso would be contracted from asbestos,
7 and maybe there are other areas, but we were mainly
8 concerned about controlling our asbestos fiber.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Number 9 discusses the need for more
11 and better epidemiologic studies, including all
12 exposures over a wide range.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell me what epidemiologic
16 studies CertainTeed conducted to answer this
17 question?
18 A. There were quite a few
19 epidemiological studies being made back in the late
20 60s and — being made by various associations and,
21 in fact, by various doctors, and Ive seen some
22 reports on that, and CertainTeed attended some
23 meetings on that.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you want to make
25 a switch?

181
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
2 2:01.
3 (Discussion is held off the record.)
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
5 at 2:02.
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. The next paragraph talks about what
8 CertainTeed can do to meet problems raised at the
9 conference in its plants, true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the first thing it says is,
12 Enforce the respirator program even when the
13 exposures are intermittent and negligible, true?
14 A. And then he said, and dust control
15 is not available.
16 So, yes, that was our policy.
17 Q. So, even where exposures were
18 negligible and dust control wasnt available, people
19 were to be given respirators, true?
20 A. If people were trying to say that,
21 no, you dont have to worry about it because its
22 negligible here — I mean, people in the plant knew
23 where you needed — where you needed dust control
24 and where you didnt and for what reasons. And if,
25 for some reason, the dust control was not adequate

182
1 or there was a failure or something, then the
2 respirator — theyd have to wear a respirator until
3 it was corrected.
4 We tried to make sure our plants were
5 engineered so you would not have to wear a
6 respirator.
7 Q. Yes, sir, but your head of safety
8 says that, even where exposure is negligible, you
9 should wear a respirator, true?
10 A. That wasnt his policy, though. He
11 put out policy later on or at the same time, and the
12 policy didnt say that. It said just — what I just
13 told you.
14 Q. So, CertainTeed did not follow the
15 recommendations of the safety director?
16 A. Well, certainly they did. The safety
17 director put the policy out.
18 Q. So, even though he told executives at
19 CertainTeed that respirators should be worn when
20 there was negligible exposure, that policy was never
21 implemented, true?
22 A. It says, and dust control is not
23 available.
24 Q. Correct.
25 A. And thats the policy that was

183
1 implemented.
2 Q. But not where there was negligible
3 exposure, sir?
4 A. I dont know what negligible exposure
5 is, sir.
6 Q. Your –
7 A. I only can tell you we had a policy
8 and what it was, and he put it out.
9 Q. Sir, was it a policy that people
10 should wear respirators even when exposure was
11 negligible?
12 A. Whats — I dont know the definition
13 of negligible.
14 Was that word used in the policy?
15 No, that Im aware of. If the — if the exposure
16 was greater than the standards, you had to wear a
17 respirator until it was corrected. That was our
18 policy.
19 Q. Well, he doesnt say that here, does
20 he, sir?
21 A. Well, there is a policy.
22 Q. Does he say that here, sir, when the
23 exposures are greater than the standards, thats
24 when you wear respirators?
25 A. No. Hes making a point that you

184
1 need to make certain that you have a respirator
2 program, and we had one.
3 Q. He actually says that your standards
4 in your plant were no good, doesnt he?
5 A. Where does he say that?
6 Q. Doesnt he say that, sir? Youve
7 seen this document many times.
8 A. What document?
9 Q. This document.
10 A. Where does it say –
11 Q. How about Number 4. Use a lower
12 limit, perhaps two and a half million particles per
13 cubic foot, to an allowable concentration of
14 asbestos in our plant.
15 A. Yes, but where does he say we are no
16 good?
17 Q. Well, hes saying use a lower than
18 that you are currently using, doesnt he?
19 A. Well, does that mean we are no good?
20 I mean, ACGIH would set the limits; not us.
21 Q. Does he say here, sir, that the
22 standard that you are using is not low enough and
23 that you should use a lower standard?
24 A. No, he didnt say that. Hes saying,
25 use a lower standard. Thats what hes saying.

185
1 Q. And that doesnt mean that the
2 current standard, in your mind, is too high?
3 A. Sir, I didnt set the standard.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Scientists and doctors set the
6 standard for the ACGIH, and hes raising a point
7 that we should try to get down to two and a half,
8 and hes right, we should, and we did.
9 Q. Okay. So, back to my question.
10 According to the safety director, the standard that
11 you were using at the time was too high?
12 A. No. Hes not saying that.
13 Q. Okay. Lets move to the next
14 question.
15 A. No — but, sir, you made a statement
16 earlier that he said our plants were no good, and I
17 dont read that anywhere in here.
18 Q. I didnt say your plants were no
19 good; I said the safety — dust standard you were
20 using was no good.
21 A. Well, we can go back and –
22 Q. Im not going to debate it with you.
23 A. It is what it is.
24 Q. Yes, sir.
25 He also says that people who are just

186
1 doing clean-up work in the plant should be given
2 respirators, does he not?
3 A. Where is he saying that? In this
4 document?
5 Q. Yes, sir.
6 A. Im sorry.
7 Q. When he talks about negligible
8 exposure, the next sentence, he says, This would
9 include maintenance and clean-up men, true? Thats
10 what he says?
11 A. Yes, and — and maintenance men were
12 given respirators, depending on the job they had.
13 Q. And the clean-up men?
14 A. Well, whats clean-up? Clean-up is
15 maintenance people going into the bag houses and
16 cleaning up or going on — when the machine went
17 down on Sunday, going in and cleaning out the
18 machine.
19 Q. And he said that you should do more
20 monitoring of the dust in the plant, did he not?
21 A. Im sorry, I dont see that, sir.
22 Where did he say that exactly? Please help.
23 Q. Number 3, More frequent monitoring
24 of dust.
25 Does he say that?

187
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And he also says, Make sure you
3 educate the workers –
4 A. Right.
5 Q. — correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And all these were implemented, sir.
9 Q. Correct. They were all implemented
10 for the benefit of your own employees, true?
11 A. They were all implemented for the
12 safety of the people working in the plants or people
13 visiting the plants.
14 Q. Who is Mr. Hutchcroft?
15 A. I dont know who he is now, but he
16 was working in the technical group. In fact, he was
17 my supervisor at one time.
18 Q. And who is Mr. Shaw?
19 A. I think — isnt that the same
20 gentleman — I dont believe I know — is that Dr.
21 Shaw.
22 Q. Dr. Shaw — they call him MD here, so
23 I guess that is Dr. Shaw.
24 A. I dont know who he is, sir. Im
25 sorry.

188
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this, please.
2 (Exhibit Ambler 10 is marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
5 Q. You have, what, P-10 in front of you?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. This is a memo dated November 3rd,
8 1964, Re: Conference on biological effects of
9 asbestos.
10 Youve seen this document before,
11 correct, sir?
12 A. Yes. Ive seen it through
13 depositions, yes, sir.
14 Q. And this is Dr. Shaws account of
15 what happened when he attended the Selikoff
16 conference on behalf of CertainTeed, true?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what he relates to the executives
19 back at CertainTeed is that he went to this
20 conference along with Mr. Horowitz, true? I mean,
21 with Mr. Horowitz?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And — but he only — I believe he
25 only sent it to Clyde Hutchcroft.

189
1 Q. Okay.
2 It was also referenced — this very
3 report was also referenced in the last document we
4 looked at. Do you remember the first line in the
5 last document?
6 A. Yes, sir, it is.
7 Q. Okay.
8 And he talks about that there was
9 over 200 — or some 200 medical authorities at the
10 conference, correct?
11 A. Yes, he did.
12 Q. And on Page 2 he talks about things
13 he heard at the conference and that would require
14 refutation by CertainTeed, correct?
15 A. Im sorry. Where — could you direct
16 me where –
17 Q. Sure. Third full paragraph.
18 To cite but a few cases of the cases
19 and observations that were presented which are now
20 in print and a matter of record and which require a
21 refutation in kind.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Whats refutation in kind mean, do
25 you know?

190
1 A. I have no idea what he meant there.
2 Q. It doesnt mean we should agree and
3 do something; it means we have to fight it, doesnt
4 it?
5 A. I dont know the answer to that
6 question. I dont know what he meant by that.
7 Q. And, again, he also talks about that
8 he heard that animals who were in the vicinity of
9 mines had asbestos in their bodies, correct?
10 A. Thats what he was — thats what he
11 got — thats what he said was stated at this
12 conference, yes.
13 Q. And he talks about a case from Dr.
14 Newhouse in England about a five-year-old girl who
15 got mesothelioma from just living near an asbestos
16 factory, doesnt he?
17 A. He — he reports in this letter to
18 Mr. Hutchcroft that thats what was presented at
19 this conference, yes.
20 Q. And that she had a playmate who also
21 developed mesothelioma, true?
22 A. That was reported at the conference,
23 yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did
25 in response to this information?

191
1 A. Well, CertainTeed, as I mentioned to
2 you earlier, sir, was doing everything possible to
3 have clean operations in our plants, and this letter
4 didnt necessarily accelerate or decelerate any of
5 the efforts. The efforts were what they were.
6 Q. Well — but this part talks about
7 people at risk because they would have lived near
8 your plant, true?
9 A. Yes, but we — we tried to make
10 certain that we werent getting exposure of any
11 asbestos outside of the plant. There was no
12 emission of asbestos outside of the plant.
13 Q. Are you certain about that, sir?
14 A. Well, there were some areas that were
15 questionable, but the tests that Ive seen and the
16 results that Ive seen says it was pretty clean.
17 Q. Sir, you are aware of tests where
18 there was asbestos found in the yards and homes of
19 people who lived near the CertainTeed asbestos
20 plants, are you not?
21 A. Well, I dont recall specifically
22 yards, but there was some issues with fiber along
23 one of the streets that the plant was — had trucks
24 go up and down.
25 MR. EDELL: Is there a question?

192
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. Sir, the other thing that the doctor
3 did as a result is he provided a collection of
4 everything that was discussed at the conference –
5 abstracts of everything that was discussed at the
6 conference to the executives at CertainTeed, did he
7 not?
8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
9 the question. Which doctor?
10 MR. PLACITELLA: This doctor. Dr.
11 Shaw.
12 MR. EDELL: Okay, and abstracts
13 meaning –
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Mr. Edell, is this
15 an objection, question, what?
16 MR. EDELL: No, no. I dont see the
17 abstracts.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, Im assuming
19 this is a document you went over with him yesterday
20 that you didnt want to tell me about.
21 MR. EDELL: No. I have a copy of it.
22 Im just looking for all the abstracts.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh.
24 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
25 Q. Can you answer my question, sir?

193
1 A. What was the question? Im sorry.
2 Q. This doctor provided to the
3 executives at CertainTeed a collection of all of the
4 abstracts of the papers delivered at the conference?
5 Every one?
6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
7 the question. I have no idea what you mean. I
8 dont see any abstracts.
9 THE WITNESS: Dr. Shaw is telling Mr.
10 Hutchcroft that they have submitted a collection of
11 the abstracts of papers that were given at the
12 conference.
13 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
14 Q. Correct.
15 A. I mean, thats what it says.
16 Q. He says, We have submitted a
17 collection of all of the abstracts delivered, does
18 he not?
19 A. Thats what hes saying, yes.
20 Q. And then it goes on at the end of
21 that same paragraph and talks about even including
22 evidence about how the asbestos is ingested. So
23 its inhalation and ingestion, correct?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. And the conclusion of the doctor who

194
1 attended this conference on behalf of CertainTeed
2 and reported back to the executives of CertainTeed
3 was that this kind of information needed to be
4 combatted by CertainTeed and the whole rest of the
5 industry, true?
6 A. What information?
7 Q. All of the publicity about the
8 dangers of asbestos attendant to the Selikoff
9 conference.
10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
11 the question.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, he — Im
13 sorry.
14 MR. EDELL: Hold on.
15 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
16 Q. Did Dr. Shaw recommend in this memo
17 that CertainTeed should conduct additional research
18 or did Dr. Shaw say that CertainTeed should come up
19 with a strategy for fighting what was disclosed in
20 this conference?
21 A. What his recommendation was, that the
22 overall industry has to combine forces and establish
23 a case history record file that will disprove such
24 claims, and Im — claims that maybe arent valid.
25 Looking at the claims and finding out whether they

195
1 are valid or not. I mean, Ive heard — Ive heard
2 stories added to this young lady that died that the
3 streets were — they were almost blue with
4 crocidolite fiber.
5 Q. Why? Is crocidolite bad?
6 A. Well, I dont know. I mean, if you
7 are subjected to all kinds of fiber for some periods
8 of time, there is a risk.
9 Q. Sir, can you tell me what CertainTeed
10 did in response to this memo to disprove the
11 information that was related at the Selikoff
12 conference?
13 A. Again, sir, we continually worked on
14 the safe operations of our plants, for both the
15 inside and the outside of our plants.
16 Q. Well, thats not my question, so let
17 me do it again.
18 It says that CertainTeed, as part of
19 the industry, needs to take steps to either prove or
20 disprove the facts — the information thats been
21 related at the Selikoff conference, true?
22 A. It says the overall industry, yes.
23 Q. That includes CertainTeed?
24 A. Thats part of CertainTeed, yes.
25 Q. Have you seen anything in the files

196
1 of CertainTeed, in preparation for this deposition
2 or any other deposition, that would indicate that
3 CertainTeed took any steps itself to disprove the
4 information that was provided to it or confirm the
5 information that was provided to it in the Selikoff
6 conference in 1964?
7 A. There was a lot of work done on the
8 ingestion issue in the latter part of the 60s, and
9 Ive seen a lot of information concerning that, and
10 that was a major concern in the late 60s for
11 asbestos-cement pipe, was the ingestion issue.
12 Q. And what about the inhalation?
13 A. In the field the inhalation was not a
14 concern of the industry for the reasons that you
15 keep telling me well go into later.
16 Q. Im not testifying. Im just asking
17 the questions.
18 A. Well, I just answered you to the best
19 of my ability. Im sorry.
20 Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did
21 in response to either confirm or disprove the
22 information related to mesothelioma and asbestos
23 that was disclosed at the 1964 conference?
24 A. I –
25 Q. What CertainTeed itself did?

197
1 A. CertainTeed was a part of the
2 industry. We worked in conjunction with the
3 asbestos industry or the asbestos-cement pipe
4 industry.
5 Q. So tell me what specifically you did
6 within the asbestos-cement pipe industry –
7 A. We –
8 Q. — to confirm or disprove that
9 exposure to asbestos at low levels could cause
10 mesothelioma.
11 A. Well, at the date of this letter
12 nothing was done with the industry, because neither
13 association was in existence at this time of this
14 letter. Both associations started the early part of
15 the 1970s.
16 But, in the latter part of the 60s
17 there was a lot of work done on the ingestion issue,
18 and CertainTeed was a part of that work, and that
19 was done by the four major domestic suppliers
20 meeting with lawyers and other people who evaluate
21 the effects or non-effects of the ingestion of
22 asbestos fiber.
23 Q. And that was in conjunction with
24 possible exposure as a result of water passing
25 through asbestos-cement pipe, right?

198
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Putting that aside, can you tell me
4 what steps CertainTeed took to inform itself as to
5 whether the information about the inhalation of
6 asbestos fiber at low doses set forth at this
7 conference, and its relationship to mesothelioma –
8 what did it do to confirm or deny that information?
9 A. I dont know of anything specific
10 that CertainTeed did. We — again, we worked very,
11 very hard to make certain that we had plants that
12 were clean and within the applicable standards at
13 the time of operations.
14 Q. Did you tell your employees in the
15 plants that even exposure at low doses, that were
16 discussed at this conference, were capable of
17 causing mesothelioma?
18 A. Well, we didnt know that.
19 Q. You didnt?
20 A. We didnt know that thats a fact.
21 Thats just what this — somebody reported.
22 Q. So this is not something you related
23 to your employees?
24 A. We — sir, earlier this morning I
25 told you what we did at the safety meetings and

199
1 thats what we did.
2 Q. My question is, once you were told,
3 and it was written up in those memos to the
4 executives at the company, that there were cases of
5 people getting mesothelioma from low doses, did you
6 provide that information to your employees?
7 A. I dont think we specifically told
8 them about individual cases.
9 What we told them, what we were
10 trying to do and what we were doing to eliminate or
11 alleviate exposures in the plants.
12 Q. So the answer to my question is, you
13 dont know whether you told the employees that low
14 doses of asbestos exposure can cause mesothelioma?
15 A. Yes. I think I just answered your
16 question, sir.
17 Q. And whats the answer?
18 A. Well, could we read my answer back?
19 Q. No. Answer this question.
20 A. No. I –
21 Q. Do you know, sir, as you sit here
22 today, whether or not CertainTeed ever informed its
23 employees that low doses of asbestos exposure could
24 cause mesothelioma?
25 A. Sir, as I mentioned — I did answer

200
1 that, and I said specifically I dont know what we
2 said as far as these reports were concerned. I can
3 tell you that we made certain that our employees
4 knew what we were doing in the plants.
5 Q. We are not connecting. Let me try it
6 a different way.
7 At any time did you ever inform the
8 employees in your plant that low doses of asbestos
9 exposure could cause mesothelioma?
10 A. And, as I said, I dont know whether
11 we specifically did that or not.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Wait, wait.
14 What we told our plant people is what
15 we were trying to do or what we were doing to
16 alleviate their exposure or risk in the plant.
17 Q. Okay. Thats all I needed to know.
18 Now, CertainTeed attended meetings of
19 various trade organizations that also discussed the
20 association between asbestos and mesothelioma, true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that included an organization
23 known as NIMA? Do you know what NIMA is?
24 A. I know what it is, but I dont know
25 whether that was a topic of discussion at NIMA. I

201
1 wasnt a part of NIMA. I didnt attend NIMA
2 meetings.
3 Q. Do you know what the Industrial
4 Hygiene Foundation is?
5 A. Yes, Ive heard of that, too. I
6 believe we became a member of that later on, in the
7 late 60s.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next.
9 (Exhibit Ambler 11 is marked for
10 identification.)
11 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
12 Q. Sir, you have in front of you P-11,
13 which are the minutes of the Occupational Health and
14 Safety Committee of the National Insulation
15 Manufacturers Association, dated October 10, 1967.
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you ever seen this document
19 before?
20 A. I dont believe I have.
21 Q. This document indicates that the
22 meeting was attended by Mr. Horowitz, again,
23 correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. On behalf of CertainTeed, correct?

202
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And others at the meeting included
3 representatives of Johns-Manville?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Owens-Corning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And discussed at the meeting, sir,
8 was all the bad press that asbestos was getting in
9 the State of New Jersey because of asbestos exposure
10 and mesothelioma, true?
11 Second full paragraph.
12 A. As it relates to insulation
13 materials.
14 Q. And it also talks about Dr. Selikoff
15 again, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were, as a member of NIMA,
18 tracking the activities of Dr. Selikoff, correct?
19 A. You mean the company?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And just 20 days later, sir, your
23 company attended a meeting of the Industrial Hygiene
24 Foundation also discussing the relationship between
25 asbestos and mesothelioma, true?

203
1 A. I dont know. I dont see the
2 document.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next.
4 (Exhibit Ambler 12 is marked for
5 identification.)
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. Ill give you my copy so I can ask
8 you questions on it.
9 Have you ever seen this document
10 before, sir?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. In what context?
13 A. In context — in connection with
14 depositions. Never when I was employed with the
15 company.
16 Q. And, sir, again, this document talks
17 about a meeting at the Industrial Hygiene Foundation
18 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, that Mr. Horowitz, as
19 head of safety for CertainTeed, attended, correct?
20 A. Yes. Im assuming he attended it.
21 Im assuming he — yes. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And you were working for the company
24 at this point, werent you?
25 A. Yes, I was.

204
1 Q. He addresses this correspondence to
2 Mr. A.E. Alpine. Who was that?
3 A. He was in charge of asbestos-cement
4 pipe manufacturing in 1967.
5 Q. And also copied here was a Mr. Davis.
6 Who was Mr. Davis?
7 A. Well, thats the same Mr. Davis we
8 talked about earlier. He was general manager of the
9 pipe division.
10 Q. Was he a general manager — was he
11 technically your boss?
12 A. No — well, I was sort of very low on
13 the totem pole.
14 Q. He was your bosss bosss boss?
15 A. Yes, thats about right.
16 Q. So, this memo went to your bosss
17 bosss boss, pretty high up in the company at this
18 point, correct?
19 A. Well, my bosss — yes, that was a
20 copy sent to him. It wasnt sent to him; a copy of
21 it was sent to him, yes. It was copied to — it was
22 directly sent to Bert Alpine.
23 Q. Well, you have no doubt that he got
24 this, do you?
25 A. Who, Mr. Davis?

205
1 No, I dont have any doubt.
2 Q. And he talks about in his memo what
3 he learned, and one of the things he learned about
4 was bronchial carcinoma, correct?
5 A. Thats what he reported that was
6 obviously stated at this meeting.
7 Q. And he also talks about mesothelioma,
8 correct?
9 A. Do you have another copy of it?
10 Q. Im sorry. I dont.
11 Right underneath there where he
12 talks — do you see where it says, underscored,
13 mesothelioma, a rare tumor affects the cells
14 lining?
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then he goes on to talk about
18 historical information, correct?
19 A. Yes, historical information.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And he says that before 1918 there
23 wasnt a lot of information on the health aspects of
24 asbestos, right?
25 A. Thats what hes reporting, right.

206
1 Q. And that, by — and then he goes on
2 and he talks about 1960, a study done by a Dr.
3 Wagner in association –
4 A. Where –
5 Q. Page 2.
6 A. Oh, Im sorry.
7 Q. — associated with exposure to
8 crocidolite.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes. Sorry. Yes.
11 Q. And that was one of the kinds of
12 asbestos that was in your asbestos-cement pipe,
13 true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it says — when he talks about
16 people who got mesothelioma, it says, many were not
17 even industrially exposed. Although they lived in
18 the mining area, some only for a short time and some
19 only as children.
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell me whether that
23 information was ever made known to you in 1967 by
24 your bosss bosss boss or anybody under him?
25 A. I never got a copy of this letter,

207
1 but I — I do know what CertainTeed knew about
2 mesothelioma in 1967.
3 Q. Were they aware of this information?
4 I guess they were.
5 A. Well, they had — they got this
6 information, but, if you read further on, it says
7 there were only 500 cases reported in the world up
8 to this time.
9 Q. 500 deaths is a lot of deaths, isnt
10 it?
11 A. Well, in the world? I dont know the
12 answer to that.
13 Q. Well, that would be the equivalent
14 of, say, two planes coming down and crashing.
15 A. Its not quite the same comparison.
16 Q. Its not, sir?
17 A. I dont think so.
18 Q. So, 500 people is not a lot of
19 people?
20 A. I didnt say that.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Im saying it says 500 people, and it
23 was reported that, even though there were only 500
24 cases — thats not me. Im reading whats in this
25 letter.

208
1 Q. Im not arguing with you, sir.
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. So, it was known that 500 people were
4 dead or dying from mesothelioma at the time this
5 letter was written?
6 A. Thats what the letter says.
7 Q. And thats what CertainTeed knew,
8 true?
9 A. They knew what was reported at this
10 meeting.
11 (Discussion is held off the record.)
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. Now, CertainTeed was aware that
14 people in the field were cutting and sawing
15 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the cutting and sawing of
18 asbestos-cement pipe would liberate asbestos fiber,
19 true?
20 A. In various –
21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
22 the question. Do you have any time frame at all?
23 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
24 Q. You can answer it, sir.
25 Cutting and sawing asbestos pipe

209
1 covering liberates asbestos fiber, true?
2 MS. GEISE: Pipe covering?
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. Im sorry. Let me rephrase it.
5 Cutting and sawing of asbestos-cement
6 pipe liberates asbestos fiber into the air, true?
7 A. In various quantities, yes.
8 Q. And stacking asbestos-cement products
9 can cause exposure to asbestos, true?
10 A. Stacking in what respect and where?
11 Q. Just stacking one thing on top of the
12 other and the mere abrasive effect of moving one off
13 the other can create exposure, true?
14 A. I dont believe it creates, if any, a
15 great exposure, because the asbestos is encapsulated
16 in the wall of the pipe and, if there is any
17 movement, you are really moving cement against
18 cement.
19 Q. Sir, have you ever seen dust created
20 when one piece of pipe is pulled off another piece
21 of pipe?
22 A. No, I havent.
23 Q. Has that ever been reported to you?
24 A. Not that Im –
25 Q. Have you ever read any documents to

210
1 that effect?
2 A. Not that I can recall.
3 Q. There came a time — youve been
4 asked a series of questions many times in a
5 deposition, so Im going to try to short-cut it.
6 Were there historically basic
7 principles of consumer protection followed in the
8 asbestos-cement pipe industry?
9 A. Im sorry. I dont understand the
10 question.
11 Q. Well, were there basic principles
12 that you followed, in terms of health and safety in
13 relation to consumers, when you manufactured and
14 sold asbestos-cement pipe?
15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
16 the question. I have no idea what you mean, but if
17 you –
18 THE WITNESS: No. Im sorry. Im
19 having a problem understanding the question.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q. Were there certain ethical business
22 practices that you conformed with, in terms of
23 selling asbestos-cement pipe, in terms of warning
24 consumers of the potential dangers associated with
25 that pipe?

211
1 A. We — well, we had installation
2 guides, and it was our belief that, if you follow
3 those installation guides, you would be installing a
4 safe product and, as the tests proved out later, we
5 were right. Excuse me. A product within the
6 standards.
7 Q. Sir, did you recognize, at
8 CertainTeed, as a principle, that the company should
9 warn consumers about the dangers associated with the
10 use of its products?
11 A. I think that — Ive answered this
12 question many times. I believe that a company –
13 any company has a responsibility to make certain
14 that they have procedures out to the customer as to
15 how to install the product in accordance with any
16 specification or any requirements by any agency.
17 Q. And that is a responsibility that was
18 in effect in 1962 when you took over the manufacture
19 and sale of the pipe, true?
20 A. Well, I mean, that was CertainTeeds
21 philosophy as far as I ever knew.
22 Q. And would you agree that at
23 CertainTeed you recognized the principle that a
24 company should test its products to determine if
25 they are dangerous before you sell them?

212
1 A. Well, if — if you felt that the way
2 you were recommending the product to be installed,
3 that it wouldnt be in accordance with the
4 standards, then I think you had a responsibility as
5 a corporation to make certain that you tested it to
6 be sure that you were selling a product that was
7 safe or could be installed in accordance with your
8 installation instructions that would be within the
9 applicable standards.
10 Q. That, of course, presupposes, sir,
11 that you actually gave instructions, true?
12 A. Well, we have installation
13 instructions. We always had them. Ever since I
14 came to work for the company.
15 Q. From 1962 forward, sir?
16 A. You know, I have not seen anything
17 from 62, but Ive seen them — I saw one dated 64,
18 so I believe we had it in 62.
19 Q. You saw an installation instruction
20 from 1964, sir?
21 A. I believe it was 64 or 65. In that
22 area.
23 Q. And what did that installation
24 instruction say, sir? Because that would be
25 contrary to the Answers to Interrogatories I have in

213
1 this case.
2 A. Well, I mean, it was our normal
3 installation instructions.
4 Q. Which were what?
5 A. How to — how to receive the pipe,
6 how to unload it, how to assemble it, and how to
7 back — how to test it.
8 Q. How about how to use it safely? When
9 did you first have an instruction about how to use
10 the product safely so as to avoid exposure to
11 asbestos?
12 A. What do you mean by safely? I
13 mean, these installation instructions were within
14 the applicable standards at the time, so it was our
15 understanding, if you did that, you were selling a
16 product that could be installed safely.
17 Q. And when did you do that, sir?
18 A. I say I saw an installation
19 instruction that was back — I believe it was 64.
20 Q. And –
21 A. I could stand corrected on that, but
22 it was prior to 67.
23 Q. So you have an installation
24 instruction that told people who were installing
25 your product how to protect themselves from exposure

214
1 to asbestos prior to 1967? Is that what you are
2 saying?
3 A. No. Im saying that we had an
4 installation instruction on how to install our
5 product that you could install that would be within
6 the applicable standards. Thats what Im saying.
7 Q. Give me the 67 document.
8 Sir, youll agree that a company
9 should always tell the truth about the risks and
10 benefits of it products, true?
11 A. I believe a company has to be very
12 honest with its customers, yes.
13 Q. And you would agree, the greater the
14 danger the greater the warning required with the
15 product, true?
16 A. I believe –
17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
18 the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe a company
20 needs to be certain that their customers know how to
21 work with the product thats within the applicable
22 standards.
23 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
24 Q. Sir, have you ever testified that I
25 would agree that we have an obligation to inform

215
1 workers how to install and use the product safely?
2 Have you ever testified to that?
3 A. Well, I just — just 30 seconds ago.
4 Q. Do you agree with that statement,
5 sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, we had marked before the 1967 –
8 what we thought was the 1967 manual or brochure
9 related to asbestos-cement pipe for venting.
10 Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Is there anything in this that talks
13 about how to protect yourself from exposure to
14 asbestos?
15 A. It — no. It tells — it tells the
16 installer how to cut the pipe, which would be within
17 the applicable standards.
18 Q. Where does it say applicable
19 standards?
20 A. Well, I mean, it doesnt say within
21 the applicable standards, but we wouldnt put
22 anything out that wasnt within the applicable
23 standards.
24 Q. Well, what is the installer supposed
25 to know by reading this about applicable standards?

216
1 A. If you use this — if you use this
2 way of installing the product, you are installing
3 it — you are installing it within the standards.
4 Q. Sir, is there anything in this
5 brochure that talks about the dangers of asbestos?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When is the first time that you put
8 anything in material for the customer concerning the
9 dangers of asbestos?
10 A. The first thing I remember reading
11 was in 1974. We had — we had something in our
12 installation guide in 74.
13 Q. Well, you didnt have it for all
14 products, right? You only had it for sewer pipe?
15 A. Thats correct.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Anybody else who would have used it
18 for any other purpose wouldnt have gotten this,
19 true?
20 A. In 74, thats correct, yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now –
22 A. Well, wait. Id have to look at –
23 excuse me. I might be wrong on that. Id have to
24 look at an installation guide that was around that
25 period, because that standard — that standard

217
1 warranty — excuse me — that standard OSHA
2 statement was in our pressure pipe installation
3 guide, too. It was imprinted right on the front
4 page.
5 Q. Im going to go through all that.
6 Sir, before you ever put a word about
7 the dangers of asbestos in any material that might
8 remotely reach the consumer, you rejected that
9 warn — doing so on multiple occasions, true?
10 A. No, thats not true.
11 Q. Not true?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Sir, am I correct that CertainTeed
14 met with members of the asbestos-cement industry on
15 multiple occasions in the 1960s after receiving
16 information on asbestos and mesothelioma, discussed
17 whether people should be warned, and rejected that
18 notion?
19 A. The only thing I know of, sir, there
20 was an Asbestos-Cement Products Association meeting
21 that we were not members of, but we had an attendee
22 at the association, and he voted on some change to
23 one paragraph. Thats the only thing Im aware of.
24 But I dont think in any way that said we didnt
25 want to warn people of things.

218
1 Q. How long after you started was
2 CertainTeed involved in discussions with other
3 members of the asbestos-cement pipe industry about
4 whether or not people using your products needed to
5 be warned?
6 A. I dont know — I dont understand
7 that question. The only people — the only meetings
8 I know about in — as far as the pipe — as far as
9 the pipe industry is concerned, happened to — in
10 the 60s, happened to have been in connection with
11 the ingestion issue.
12 Like I say, there was a meeting for
13 Asbestos-Cement Products Association, but you say
14 pipe, and thats the only meeting Im aware of.
15 Q. Well, the Asbestos-Cement Products
16 Association included manufacturers of
17 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
18 A. There were members there from pipe,
19 but it was more of a building products association,
20 but, as far as I know, we were not a member of that
21 association.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Why dont we take
23 two minutes and see if we can fix this — its
24 annoying — and well come back and pick up.
25 (Discussion is held off the record.)

219
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
2 2:53.
3 (Discussion is held off the record.)
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
5 at 3:06 p.m.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next.
7 (Exhibit Ambler 13 is marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
10 Q. Before we broke I asked you questions
11 about whether, during the 1960s, shortly after you
12 started to work for CertainTeed, CertainTeed, along
13 with other members of the asbestos-cement pipe
14 industry, had considered warning consumers or
15 contractors about health hazards associated with the
16 use of asbestos-cement products, and your answer was
17 what?
18 A. In what — what are you — in what
19 respect did the — did the industry try?
20 Q. Did you, as a member of the
21 asbestos-cement products industry, have discussions
22 in the 1960s about whether people who were exposed
23 to asbestos as a result of using asbestos-cement
24 products should be warned about the dangers
25 associated with that exposure?

220
1 A. Well, we — we were not members of
2 the Asbestos-Cement Products Association, that we
3 can find anywhere.
4 Q. Are you certain of that?
5 A. We investigated all the files and we
6 talked to all the people that we can even talk to,
7 and we are pretty sure we werent members. We
8 attended meetings.
9 Q. You signed in as members, didnt you?
10 A. I didnt go to any of the meetings.
11 And then, secondly, I think your
12 question was, was it a warning label — was warning
13 labels discussed at the meetings? Was that your
14 question?
15 Q. Was the need to warn people who were
16 using asbestos-cement products discussed at the
17 meetings?
18 A. There was a discussion on that, yes.
19 Q. And the notion that the people should
20 be warned was rejected?
21 A. Not that Im aware of.
22 Q. This one is for you, Mr. Ambler, this
23 one is for you, Marc.
24 You have in front of you the
25 minutes — Ambler 13, the minutes of the meeting of

221
1 the Health and Safety Council of the Asbestos-Cement
2 Products Association, dated November 14, 1968.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And have you seen this document
6 before?
7 A. Yes, I have, through depositions.
8 Q. And the first paragraph says, A
9 meeting of the members of the Health and Safety
10 Council of the Asbestos-Cement Products Association
11 was held pursuant to notice at the board room of the
12 FlintCoat Corporation.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. FlintCoat Company, yes.
15 Q. It says, The following persons were
16 present.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it — and it lists CertainTeed
20 Products Corp. as a member, true?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It doesnt say, came from a meeting
23 of the members and these are the people that were
24 members?
25 A. It says, The following persons were

222
1 present.
2 Q. And one of those persons was Mr.
3 Alpine.
4 A. Sir, I dont know how to answer you.
5 I mean, this is a question weve researched and
6 researched, and we dont feel we were members of
7 this association. However, we had people who
8 attended meetings. I dont know how else to answer
9 your question.
10 Q. You attended the meeting and the
11 minutes say you were a member, but you say you were
12 not a member?
13 A. No, it doesnt say we werent a
14 member.
15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
16 the question.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: It does not say we were
19 a member. It says, a meeting of the members, but
20 then it says, The following persons were present.
21 It doesnt say the people there had to be members.
22 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
23 Q. And it talks — and what was
24 discussed at this meeting? Was a booklet concerning
25 safe practices using asbestos-cement product

223
1 discussed at this meeting, sir?
2 A. Where do you see that, sir? I mean,
3 do you want me to read the whole thing?
4 Q. Well, youve seen this before. Do
5 you recall what it says? Do you want me to point
6 out pieces to you?
7 A. Yes, if you would, please.
8 Q. Okay. The second page, third full
9 paragraph.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And it talks about Mr. Mayne calling
13 upon Mr. Scheckler of Johns-Manville.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. To report on the proposed pamphlet
16 entitled, Recommended Health Safety Practices for
17 Applying — Handling and Applying Asbestos-Cement
18 Products.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you see that? Okay.
21 And does that refresh your memory,
22 sir, as to whether a health — recommended health
23 safety practice for asbestos-cement products was
24 discussed at the meeting?
25 A. Well, I know that something was

224
1 discussed about asbestos-cement products at the
2 meeting.
3 Q. And it also talks about how the –
4 that there was a draft of the booklet that was being
5 circulated, true?
6 A. Draft booklet, right.
7 Q. And that it was designed for
8 contractors and those who handle asbestos-cement
9 material, correct?
10 A. Right.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Mark this
12 next.
13 (Exhibit Ambler 14 is marked for
14 identification.)
15 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
16 Q. Sir, am I correct that members — or
17 executives at CertainTeed were involved in the
18 review of this booklet?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Ive provided you, as Exhibit
21 Number 14 to this deposition, the draft booklet,
22 which is attached to a memo from Mr. Zimmerman.
23 Do you see that? The third page?
24 A. Im sorry. Your question was?
25 Q. Look at the third page of the

225
1 document.
2 A. Okay, Im on the third page.
3 Q. This is the draft booklet entitled,
4 For Handling and Applying Asbestos-Cement.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. No, I dont.
7 Q. Right there. To the right.
8 A. Oh, Im sorry. Yes.
9 Q. And it was prepared by the
10 Asbestos-Cement Products Association?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And thats the booklet thats
13 referenced in the minutes of the meeting attended by
14 Mr. Alpine, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this booklet had to do with
17 asbestos-cement products including asbestos-cement
18 pipe, true?
19 A. Id have to see the booklet to see
20 what it said about pipe. There was some reference
21 to pipe, as I understand it.
22 Q. If you look at the fifth page of the
23 booklet –
24 A. Right.
25 Q. — it says that — one of the

226
1 products the booklet refers to is asbestos-cement
2 pipe –
3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
4 the question.
5 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
6 Q. — true?
7 MR. EDELL: Its a draft of the
8 booklet.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand. We
10 agree its the draft.
11 MR. EDELL: Not the booklet.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: We agree its the
13 draft.
14 THE WITNESS: It says — well, it
15 refers to — it mentions in the first paragraph
16 asbestos-cement pipe, but it says that — well, it
17 says quite a bit about it.
18 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
19 Q. Yes, but the only reason Im showing
20 that to you is this book pertains to asbestos-cement
21 pipe in addition to other products, true?
22 A. Yes –
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. — but it was more applicable to
25 building products — asbestos-cement building

227
1 products.
2 Q. It mentions in the booklet that
3 applies, as well, to asbestos-cement pipe, true?
4 A. It mentions asbestos-cement pipe –
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. — but the association was involved
7 with building products.
8 Q. Well, was Mr. Alpine there as a
9 representative of CertainTeed building products or
10 as a representative of asbestos-cement pipe?
11 A. He was there as a representative of
12 CertainTeed Products Corporation.
13 Q. But his job focused on
14 asbestos-cement pipe, correct?
15 A. His job was in the pipe division,
16 yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And this draft that was discussed at
19 the meeting attended by Mr. Alpine has various
20 provisions in it, true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. For instance, on Page 2 it talks
23 about the major points to keep in mind when handling
24 or applying materials containing asbestos.
25 Do you see that?

228
1 A. Yes. Im sorry.
2 Q. Okay.
3 And the things to keep in mind says,
4 Keep dust to a minimum, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Wear approved respirators when
7 exposed to dust, maintain good housekeeping at all
8 times, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On Page 3, in the introduction, it
11 indicates that Respirators should be worn when
12 dusts are generated as a result of sawing, drilling
13 or other similar operation, true?
14 A. It does say that, yes.
15 Q. And, under housekeeping on the next
16 page it says, A major source of dust is from loose
17 material, scrap, and other debris distributed
18 throughout the job area and disintegrated by
19 trampling on, running over, et cetera, correct?
20 A. Thats what it says, but it doesnt
21 say what job areas or what products they are talking
22 about.
23 Q. And then on the next page it says,
24 under shipping, Under normal conditions unit load
25 handling and storage of asbestos-cement products,

229
1 including roofing and siding shingles, flat and
2 corrugated sheets, asbestos-cement pipe, et cetera,
3 should present no problems, if the safety practices
4 and regulations are observed and enforced.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. It says that, yes.
7 Q. And then down in the third paragraph
8 it says, If breakage of asbestos-cement products
9 occurs, broken pieces of material should be cleaned
10 up and disposed of to avoid disintegration by
11 trampling, running over, et cetera, correct?
12 A. It says that.
13 Q. The next page talks about
14 fabrication, and it says, in the second paragraph,
15 Fabrication of asbestos-cement products involving
16 cutting, drilling, sawing should be done in a manner
17 that will minimize dust. The use of proper methods,
18 tools and equipment will contribute considerably
19 towards dust abatement, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And then on the bottom, when it talks
22 about clean-up, it says that you should use vacuum
23 equipment, correct? And, if you cant use vacuum
24 equipment, wet down the material?
25 A. Thats what it says.

230
1 Q. So, in –
2 A. Thats what we evolved into, sir, in
3 our plants.
4 Q. In your plant?
5 A. In our plant.
6 Q. Was the information in this booklet
7 provided to purchasers or workers who used
8 asbestos-cement products in 1967?
9 A. No, for the simple reason we didnt
10 believe it was — we had an issue with the way we
11 were recommending to install our products.
12 Q. But your brochures in 1967 showed
13 people cutting asbestos-cement pipe, true?
14 A. With manual — with manual means,
15 yes.
16 Q. They showed people hammering
17 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
18 A. That brochure shows it.
19 Q. They show people chiselling
20 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
21 A. Well, isnt the hammer and the chisel
22 one operation there? Id have to see it again.
23 Sir, I dont think thats two –
24 there are two inter — two different operations
25 there.

231
1 Q. They show the stacking of
2 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
3 A. Id have to see it. Can I see it,
4 please?
5 Stack — shows one on top of another,
6 yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 So, if they are in the same year, the
9 information that the Asbestos-Cement Products
10 Association said should be provided was not
11 provided –
12 A. Well, I dont understand –
13 Q. — in the same brochure in the same
14 year, true?
15 A. No. I dont understand that question
16 at all. What was not provided?
17 Q. You didnt tell people to wear
18 respirators when they were cutting the product in
19 1967, did you?
20 A. Because they didnt need to.
21 Q. Thats your conclusion, right, sir?
22 A. Thats the companys conclusion –
23 Q. I understand that.
24 A. — and it proved out to be right when
25 we tested in 77.

232
1 Q. Thats why so many people died,
2 right, sir?
3 Now, that brochure was discussed
4 again in 1969, a year later, true?
5 A. It was discussed again. I dont know
6 the exact date of it, but obviously you have it
7 there.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Why dont you mark
9 this the next — I guess its 15.
10 (Exhibit Ambler 15 is marked for
11 identification.)
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. Now, in 1969 the head of the pipe
14 division for CertainTeed was actually a member of
15 the committee that was working on this booklet,
16 true, that you say you were never a member of?
17 MR. EDELL: He didnt say they
18 werent a member of this particular committee. He
19 said he wasnt a member of the organization.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, so you could be
21 on the committee writing all the stuff, but you
22 couldnt be a member?
23 MR. EDELL: Perhaps thats true, but
24 thats not what he said.
25 BY MR. PLACITELLA:

233
1 Q. Okay.
2 Sir, Mr. Alpine, who was head of the
3 pipe division, was on the committee charged with
4 reviewing this booklet, true?
5 MR. EDELL: Where does it say that?
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Im asking him a
7 question.
8 THE WITNESS: Im sorry, sir. Your
9 question is, was Mr. Alpine at this meeting?
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q. No.
12 My question is, not only did he go to
13 the meeting; he was a member of the committee that
14 was charged in drafting and reviewing the proposed
15 booklet forewarning consumers related to
16 asbestos-cement pipe?
17 A. He was a part of putting that booklet
18 together, yes.
19 Q. And the booklet was discussed first
20 in 1968 and then brought back up at a meeting in
21 1969 because it was not approved for release in
22 1968, true?
23 A. Well, I mean, I dont know why it
24 was — what actions — I mean, it was November of
25 68, and then it was brought up again in February of

234
1 69. Maybe some additional information had to be
2 determined. I dont remember that.
3 Q. Okay.
4 So, the first time it was brought up,
5 it was — CertainTeed did not use the booklet to
6 warn anybody, true?
7 A. CertainTeed did not use the booklet.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Then a memo was generated, which I
10 gave you, dated March 3rd, 1969, attaching the
11 minutes of the meeting of the Health and Safety
12 Council.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Dated February 18th?
15 Q. Correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the people that got this at
18 CertainTeed include a Mr. McNabb. Who was he?
19 A. In 69 he was executive
20 vice-president of the corporation.
21 Q. And Mr. Davis. What was his job in
22 69?
23 A. In 69 — I dont see where he was a
24 part of this meeting.
25 Q. Says, M.S. Davis, Jr., CertainTeed.

235
1 Look on the page before it, sir.
2 A. Well, that was just a memorandum sent
3 out. Hes saying the people at the meeting –
4 Q. No, no, no. We are not connecting.
5 Turn to the first page.
6 A. Im connecting very well, I think. I
7 think you are asking me about the February 18th
8 meeting, are you not?
9 Q. No, sir.
10 First Im asking, who got the minutes
11 of the meeting?
12 A. Oh. I didnt think that was your
13 question.
14 Q. Okay. Thats my question.
15 A. Im sorry.
16 Q. The people that got the minutes — by
17 the way, this meeting (sic) was sent out by the
18 lawyers for the organization, true?
19 A. Thats correct, yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And you think the lawyers would send
22 out minutes of meetings to non-members?
23 A. Sir, I dont know the answer to that
24 question.
25 MR. EDELL: Lawyers never make

236
1 mistakes.
2 THE WITNESS: I mean –
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. There wasnt a mistake here, sir.
5 Whether — one, two, three, four people from –
6 three people from CertainTeed got this, didnt they?
7 A. Thats correct, yes, sir.
8 Q. The executive vice-president of the
9 company?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Davis. What was his job?
12 A. As I mentioned earlier today, hes –
13 he was president of the pipe division.
14 Q. He was president of the whole pipe
15 division. And then Mr. Alpine.
16 A. He was in charge of — he was in
17 charge of asbestos-cement pipe manufacturing.
18 Q. And then attached are the meeting
19 minutes, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it says that the person who
22 attended the Health and Safety Council meeting on
23 behalf of CertainTeed was Mr. McNabb.
24 Who was Mr. McNabb in 1969?
25 A. He was executive vice-president of

237
1 the corporation.
2 Q. So — of the whole corporation?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Well, how many people in the
5 corporation in 1969?
6 A. I dont know.
7 Q. A thousand?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Tens of thousands?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. How many countries did you operate
12 in?
13 A. CertainTeed Corporation?
14 Q. Yes. In 1969.
15 A. Well, primarily just the United
16 States. I mean, we did export products once in a
17 while, but primarily in the United States.
18 Q. So, the executive vice-president of
19 the entire corporation thought it was important
20 enough to attend this meeting that you werent a
21 member of –
22 A. Sir –
23 Q. — in 1969, true?
24 A. — Im — Im telling you — you are
25 implying that Im sort of leading you astray. I

238
1 dont know if we were a member or not –
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. — but, please, sir, please feel free
4 to go down and check all the files you would like.
5 Q. Thats not my job, sir.
6 A. Well, Im trying to answer — I mean,
7 four times now youve implied Im not telling you
8 the facts.
9 Q. You are the one that said you werent
10 a member. Im just asking the question.
11 A. Well, yes.
12 Q. Other people who were there were
13 representatives were Philip Carey, sir?
14 A. Thats what it says, yes.
15 Q. FlintCoat Company, sir?
16 A. Thats what it says.
17 Q. GAF?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Johns-Manville?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The Quebec Asbestos Mining
22 Association?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The lawyers?
25 A. Yes.

239
1 Q. And a medical advisor, correct?
2 A. Dr. Wright, yes.
3 MR. EDELL: Do you want to really
4 work this out and get the real answer?
5 MR. PLACITELLA: I want answers — I
6 want my questions answered. Is there an objection?
7 MR. EDELL: Its not that
8 complicated.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Is there an
10 objection?
11 Then please dont interrupt.
12 MR. EDELL: Its a waste of time, but
13 go ahead.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not wasting
15 time.
16 MR. EDELL: You are, Chris.
17 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
18 Q. Discussed at the meeting was the
19 recommended code of practices again, correct?
20 Second full paragraph, Page 2.
21 A. Well, Mr. Mayne is saying that he
22 spoke briefly on the background of the concern of
23 the asbestos industry with health and safety
24 practices.
25 Q. And down on the fourth paragraph Mr.

240
1 Scheckler again says, No progress was made on the
2 manual since the last meeting, right?
3 A. Thats correct, yes.
4 Q. And on the next page it says that
5 there were only four members of the subcommittee
6 involved in drafting the pamphlet, true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And one of them — the four
9 members — is the head of the pipe division for
10 CertainTeed, Mr. Alpine, true?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Mr. A.E. Alpine is not one of the
13 members?
14 A. No, thats not what your question
15 was.
16 You asked me if he was head of the
17 pipe division. He was never head of the –
18 Q. Head of pipe manufacturing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sorry. Yes. Head of pipe
21 manufacturing. Thank you.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And one of the main purposes for
24 discussing this booklet was to limit your liability
25 should you get sued, true?

241
1 A. Mr. Carey said that was one of the
2 purposes of issuing the booklet, yes.
3 Q. Was the booklet released to warn
4 consumers in 1969?
5 A. We did not release this booklet, as
6 far as I know. I dont know if anybody did.
7 Q. On more than one occasion it was
8 discussed that one of the reasons you should publish
9 the booklet and use it was to protect yourself from
10 lawsuits, true?
11 A. That was what –
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. You can answer it.
16 A. Thats what Mr. Sirney (sic) — no,
17 wait. Im sorry. Strike that.
18 Yes, Mr. Sirney stated that one
19 purpose was for the limitation of liability. It
20 says, The limitation of liability of the
21 manufacturers.
22 Q. What was the date of that document,
23 sir?
24 A. March 8th — excuse me –
25 February 18th.

242
1 Q. 1969?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And, in December of 1969, the
4 publication of the booklet was rejected again by
5 CertainTeed and the other members of the
6 Asbestos-Cement Products Association, true?
7 A. I dont know. If it says that, then
8 its true.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next.
10 (Exhibit Ambler 16 is marked for
11 identification.)
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. You have in front of you P-16, which
14 is a December 10, 1969 letter with attached minutes
15 of the First Annual Meeting of the Health and Safety
16 Council ACPA, dated November 21, 1969.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the person who attended this
20 meeting on behalf of CertainTeed was a Mr. Monoky,
21 M-o-n-o-k-y. Who was he?
22 A. Monoky.
23 Q. Monoky.
24 A. He was — he was involved in health
25 and safety.

243
1 Q. What was his position?
2 A. I dont know exactly what Steves
3 position was.
4 Q. Where did he work?
5 A. In 69? Probably he was — he was
6 probably headquartered in either Broad Axe or — in
7 Pennsylvania, Broad Axe or Ardmore.
8 Q. Did he work in relation to
9 asbestos-cement pipe?
10 A. Yes, he did.
11 Q. So he was there to represent
12 CertainTeeds interests as it relates to
13 asbestos-cement pipe, would you agree?
14 A. No, not necessarily. Obviously he
15 did other things, too, so he may have been there
16 just on asbestos.
17 Q. Do you see anything in any research
18 that youve done to indicate that he was there
19 representing the interests of CertainTeed for
20 anything other than asbestos-cement pipe?
21 A. I havent seen anything one way or
22 the other, but this was a building products
23 association, so I would certainly think that
24 CertainTeed would want to hear what they are saying
25 about asbestos in building products.

244
1 Q. So he would be reporting back both to
2 people in asbestos-cement pipe and other building
3 products?
4 A. If he — if he reported back. I
5 dont know what Steve did with it.
6 Q. Now, one of the things that was
7 discussed at this meeting he attended was the issue
8 of product liability, correct?
9 A. Where is that, sir?
10 Q. Page 2.
11 A. Its Mr. Ball discussed product
12 liability from Johns-Manville, yes.
13 Q. Right. And he talked about the
14 various classes of people who the members could
15 expect to sue them for failing to warn about the
16 dangers of asbestos, true?
17 A. Where do you see that, sir?
18 Q. Page 2, Page 3 –
19 A. Well, I mean –
20 Q. — Page 4.
21 A. Did he use the word expect or did
22 he use the word could?
23 Q. Well, lets go through it. Mr. Ball
24 restricted his comments, he talked about asbestosis
25 and put aside mesothelioma and cancer for a second.

245
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And he talked about the classes of
5 people who may file a lawsuit.
6 A. Who may, yes.
7 Q. Correct?
8 A. Who may file, yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And he says, The first class of
11 people are the people who work day-to-day with the
12 products because of their handling, sawing, nailing
13 and so forth.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Because their exposure would be
18 unavoidable, true?
19 A. Where does he say its –
20 Q. Are exposed to asbestos fibers
21 unavoidably liberated into the atmosphere.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes. Im sorry. Yes.
24 Q. Such exposure, if proper safety and
25 housekeeping procedures are not followed, is a more

246
1 or less continuing one.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the next one is a second class of
5 potential plaintiffs who are identified as being
6 so-called neighborhood plaintiffs, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These are people who live near a
9 plant or a mining facility that emit asbestos fibers
10 into the air, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And, of course, these are the same
13 class of people that Dr. Selikoffs conference
14 talked about in 1964 and were discussed at the IHF
15 meeting in 1967, correct?
16 A. Id have to go back and read Dr.
17 Selikoffs — but, I mean, there was — in the other
18 report it was second class people.
19 Q. And then he said there is a third
20 class of people who might file suit, and those were
21 people who may use the products from time to time,
22 but not on a regular basis, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And on Page 4 he talks about the
25 theory that he would expect plaintiffs would use if

247
1 they were suing the members, true? Third full
2 paragraph.
3 A. And your question was? Im sorry.
4 Q. What he indicated was that one of the
5 things that people may be sued over is the failure
6 to warn about the dangers of asbestos and how to
7 work with the product safely, basically. Isnt that
8 what he says?
9 A. He gets into some of that, yes.
10 Q. And then what he recommends to the
11 members on Page 5 is Put a warning on the
12 packaging. The warning should state that there may
13 be a health hazard and that proper precautionary
14 procedures such as wearing respirators be followed.
15 Isnt that what he says?
16 A. Yes, but they are talking about
17 building products there.
18 Q. Where does it say that?
19 A. It doesnt say it, but they are.
20 Q. Well, sir, you were there — where
21 does it say they are only talking about building
22 products?
23 A. It doesnt say that, sir, but their
24 own company didnt put it on pipe.
25 Q. Whose own company?

248
1 A. Johns-Manville.
2 Q. Well, shame on them.
3 A. Im just stating a fact, sir.
4 Q. It doesnt say anything about this is
5 limited to building products, does it, sir?
6 A. No, but the association was primarily
7 for building products.
8 Q. But, sir, the only people who ever
9 attended, other than the executive vice-president,
10 on behalf of CertainTeed, were involved in
11 asbestos-cement pipe, true?
12 A. No, I dont believe thats true,
13 because I think Steve was involved in other things,
14 also.
15 Q. But you dont know that for a fact?
16 A. No, I dont know if he was or he
17 wasnt.
18 Q. Okay.
19 And what he says was — what he says,
20 basically, is you should warn the consumer, correct?
21 A. If there is an issue, you should warn
22 the consumer, yes.
23 Q. And that you should also hand out the
24 pamphlet?
25 A. Hes saying — where does he say

249
1 that? Im sorry.
2 Q. The next paragraph. Mr. Ball
3 stated.
4 A. Thats what hes saying, yes.
5 Q. The next paragraph talks about a
6 presentation of Dr. Davis at the exact same time in
7 the meeting, correct?
8 A. Where does –
9 Q. Page 6, sir.
10 A. Oh, Page 6.
11 Yes. What they are saying is what
12 this doctor presented at the meeting, correct.
13 Q. And the doctor, again, talked about
14 asbestos exposure and mesothelioma, correct?
15 A. He did mention mesothelioma, yes.
16 Q. And after this meeting, sir, in 1969,
17 did CertainTeed put a warning on its asbestos-cement
18 pipe?
19 A. No, they did not, for the reasons
20 that Ive told you.
21 Q. After this meeting, sir, did
22 CertainTeed hand out a pamphlet telling people how
23 to protect themselves from exposure to asbestos when
24 working with asbestos-cement pipe?
25 A. We had our installation instructions,

250
1 which would keep people from being exposed to
2 asbestos that was not in accordance with the
3 applicable standards.
4 Q. Show me that, sir.
5 A. Well, I mean, we have our
6 installation instructions.
7 Q. Where is that, sir?
8 A. Where are they?
9 Q. Can you produce that tomorrow at the
10 deposition, sir?
11 A. I cant produce it tomorrow.
12 Q. Can you ask your lawyers to show it
13 to me, because I dont think it exists?
14 A. You dont think what exists?
15 Q. I dont think there is installation
16 instructions in 1969 that instruct people on how to
17 protect themselves from exposure to asbestos.
18 A. Whoa, whoa. No, I didnt say that,
19 sir. What I said was, the installation instructions
20 were such that, if you used them, you would not be
21 exposed to asbestos that was not in accordance with
22 the applicable standards and, when testing was done
23 in 1977, that proved to be correct.
24 Q. Sir, you are saying that you had an
25 installation instruction that was designed

251
1 specifically to protect people from exposure to
2 asbestos in 1969?
3 A. No, Im not. I said we had an
4 installation instruction for our product, for our
5 pipe, that told people how to — to receive, unload
6 and install our product.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. Thats what we had.
9 Q. And none of those installation
10 instructions mentioned the dangers of asbestos,
11 true?
12 A. Well, I dont know when the first
13 OSHA warning was put on pressure pipe, but, as I
14 mentioned earlier, it was put on the sewer pipe
15 installation guide in 74. But, sir, as I told you,
16 the way we recommended was within the OSHA
17 standards.
18 Q. Sir, OSHA was not in effect in 1969,
19 was it?
20 A. Well, we both know they werent, but
21 then it was in — in accordance with the ACGIH
22 standards.
23 Q. Well, sir, you knew the ACGIH
24 standards were inadequate to protect people, didnt
25 you?

252
1 A. We went through that earlier today,
2 and Im not agreeing to that.
3 Q. But in your plant you used a standard
4 lower than the ACGIH standards to protect your
5 workers, did you not?
6 A. We always tried to — we always tried
7 to have standards lower than the applicable
8 standards.
9 Q. Sir, in 1969, after getting the
10 advice from the attorney that people should be
11 warned, did you warn anybody who was using
12 asbestos-cement pipe that they needed to protect
13 themselves from exposure to asbestos?
14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
15 the question.
16 THE WITNESS: When it was determined
17 that there was a way being used to install the
18 product, we warned the people not to use that means.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Sir, in 1969 did you warn people
21 using asbestos-cement products to avoid exposure to
22 asbestos? Did you warn them of that?
23 A. No, for the reasons Ive already
24 stated.
25 Q. Okay.

253
1 You had done no testing concerning
2 the installation of asbestos-cement pipe as of 1969,
3 true?
4 A. No testing in the installation? Is
5 that your question?
6 Q. Yes, sir.
7 A. We didnt do it because we — it was
8 our belief that you — that the way we were
9 recommending to cut or machine the pipe was well
10 within any standard, and that was based on our
11 experience with the product.
12 Q. Sir, how would you know that without
13 doing the tests?
14 A. Well, as it proved out, we were right
15 because, when we did –
16 Q. Sir –
17 A. Excuse me.
18 — when we did test the product, it
19 was within the OSHA standards. The OSHA standards
20 in 76, by the way.
21 Q. Sir, Im not asking you about 1976 or
22 1977.
23 Im asking you, in 1969 had you done
24 any testing to determine what level of asbestos
25 fiber was released when you cut or fabricated

254
1 asbestos-cement pipe on the job?
2 A. I told you we did not, and I told you
3 the reason for it is because it was our belief,
4 based on our experience with the product, that the
5 way we recommended to install the product would be
6 within the applicable standards.
7 Q. And what is the basis for that
8 statement, sir?
9 A. I mean, we were experienced with the
10 products. We — there were some times in the
11 laboratory where we used the manual ways to cut pipe
12 for testing. I mean, we knew what was going on. We
13 just didnt fall off a turnip truck. I mean, we
14 knew what was going on, and it proved out to be
15 correct in 77 when the testing was done.
16 Q. Sir, Im not asking you about 1977.
17 Im asking you about 1969.
18 A. I –
19 Q. You did no tests, am I correct, to
20 determine whether asbestos was released in 1969 on
21 the job cutting asbestos-cement pipe?
22 A. Sir, Ive answered that question
23 three times now, and Im going to continue to answer
24 it the same way.
25 Q. And Im going to continue to ask the

255
1 same question.
2 A. Thats fine.
3 Q. So you refuse to answer my question?
4 A. No, I dont refuse to answer your
5 question.
6 Q. My question is –
7 A. Sir –
8 Q. Can you answer my question, sir, yes
9 or no? Can you answer my question –
10 A. No, I cant answer it yes or no.
11 Q. Fine. Then Ill move on.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. You refuse to answer my question yes
14 or no?
15 A. No. No. Ill –
16 Q. Do you refuse to answer my question
17 yes or no?
18 MR. EDELL: Hold on.
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. Excuse me, sir. Do you refuse –
21 MR. EDELL: Let him say whatever he
22 wants to say and youll respond.
23 THE WITNESS: Im sorry.
24 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
25 Q. Do you refuse to answer my question

256
1 yes or no?
2 MR. EDELL: He has not refused to
3 answer any of your questions. You are doing nothing
4 more than badgering him.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not badgering
6 him.
7 MR. EDELL: If youve got another
8 question, ask it.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Ive got plenty of
10 questions.
11 MR. EDELL: Then go ahead.
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. Sir, in 1970 was another draft of the
14 brochure circulated within your corporation?
15 A. I dont know the answer to that.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Next.
17 (Exhibit Ambler 17 is marked for
18 identification.)
19 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
20 Q. You have in front of you Exhibit
21 Number 17, which is the 1970 version of the
22 recommended practices for fabricating and handling
23 asbestos-cement products.
24 Have you ever seen that before?
25 A. This is only part of the whole

257
1 practices. I believe Ive seen the whole practices
2 before.
3 Q. And youve seen this before in prior
4 depositions, have you not?
5 A. Yes. I didnt see it while I was
6 with CertainTeed. Yes.
7 Q. And, again, this brochure indicates
8 that care should be taken when exposed to asbestos
9 from asbestos-cement products on construction sites,
10 correct? Generally?
11 A. Yes, generally.
12 Q. And it talks about good housekeeping
13 practices and use of vacuums and the like, and
14 sawing, et cetera, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And right in the introduction it says
17 that any time that you saw a product and state or
18 federal regulations are exceeded in terms of
19 exposure limits, respirators should be worn,
20 correct?
21 A. Where is that, sir? Im sorry.
22 Q. Page 3.
23 A. Yes, it does say that.
24 Q. In 1970 you actually were part of an
25 organizational meeting that approved distributing

258
1 this brochure, correct?
2 A. I dont know that.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Next.
4 (Exhibit Ambler 18 is marked for
5 identification.)
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. You have in front of you as
8 Exhibit 18 the May 19, 1970 minutes of the seventh
9 meeting of the Health and Safety Council, ACPA,
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And Mr. Alpine was there on behalf of
13 CertainTeed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at that point he was still the –
16 in charge of the plant for manufacturing
17 asbestos-cement pipe?
18 A. Yes. All plants, yes.
19 Q. All plants?
20 A. For asbestos-cement pipe.
21 Q. He had nothing to do with any other
22 product other than asbestos-cement pipe, correct?
23 A. At this time thats correct.
24 Q. And then on Page 3 it talks about
25 taking a vote on the brochure.

259
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the second ballot CertainTeed
4 actually voted against the brochure?
5 A. What brochure?
6 Q. The — the asbestos-cement product
7 brochure.
8 A. No. They didnt vote against it.
9 They voted against a proposed amendment to a certain
10 paragraph on Page 3.
11 Q. Right.
12 And ultimately the brochure was voted
13 on and unanimously passed, correct?
14 A. I dont know –
15 Q. The next page.
16 A. Im sorry.
17 Okay.
18 Q. Yes, sir?
19 A. Thats correct. Thats what it says.
20 Q. So Mr. Alpine actually voted for the
21 brochure?
22 A. If thats what it says, yes, he must
23 have.
24 Q. And he was there on behalf of the
25 asbestos-cement pipe part of CertainTeed, correct?

260
1 A. I believe he was there representing
2 CertainTeed Products Corporation.
3 Q. And you know that how? You spoke to
4 him?
5 A. Excuse me?
6 Q. You spoke to him?
7 A. Not about this issue, no, I did not.
8 Q. So this was approved in 1970 for
9 distribution, correct?
10 A. The booklet was, yes.
11 Q. But it was never distributed by
12 CertainTeed, was it?
13 A. We didnt distribute it because we
14 thought it was mainly applicable to building
15 products.
16 Q. So, even though you voted on it, and
17 even though other people in the industry used it,
18 you, CertainTeed, decided not to use it, true?
19 A. What other companies in the
20 asbestos-cement pipe industry used it?
21 Q. Johns-Manville.
22 A. They didnt distribute it.
23 Q. They didnt?
24 A. No, they didnt.
25 Q. National Gypsum?

261
1 A. Not for asbestos-cement pipe, they
2 didnt.
3 Q. National Gypsum?
4 A. They werent in the asbestos-cement
5 pipe business.
6 Q. Do you know who used it?
7 A. I dont think any asbestos-cement
8 pipe producers distributed the booklet.
9 Q. Including yourself?
10 A. Including ourselves.
11 Q. So we now know, do we not, that there
12 was discussion about warnings related to
13 asbestos-cement pipe that CertainTeed was involved
14 in, including members, people who worked in the
15 cement pipe side of the business, for a period of
16 three years during the 1960s up to 1970, true?
17 A. Is there a question?
18 Q. Is that true?
19 A. Well, what? Whats the question
20 again? Im sorry.
21 Q. We now know, sir, from reviewing
22 these documents and going though your testimony,
23 that the subject of warning people using
24 asbestos-cement products was ongoing throughout the
25 late 1960s?

262
1 A. The discussion of warnings?
2 Q. Correct.
3 A. Yes, but there is one thing that you
4 showed me, sir, where it says, if it were above –
5 the release was above the standards, you were to put
6 warnings on. And, again, we were of the belief that
7 what we recommended in our installation guide would
8 not be — if you used those, you would not be above
9 the applicable standard.
10 Q. Sir, you had no evidence to support
11 that belief, did you?
12 A. We had our experience with the
13 product, our knowledge of the product and, when we
14 did the testing in 77, it was proved to be right.
15 Q. In 1970 you had no evidence that you
16 can point to that showed that cutting
17 asbestos-cement pipe on the job would not release
18 asbestos fiber, did you?
19 A. No –
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
21 the question.
22 THE WITNESS: — I didnt say release
23 asbestos fiber. It released asbestos fiber, but it
24 was — released asbestos fiber well within the
25 applicable standards.

263
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. What evidence can you point me to
3 specifically, sir, that, as of 1970, you had to show
4 that the cutting of asbestos-cement pipe released
5 fiber within the applicable standards?
6 A. Nothing other than our belief at that
7 time, which proved out to be right.
8 Q. Sir, you did not provide any warning
9 on pressure pipe — with respect to pressure pipe
10 for almost ten years after it was first discussed
11 within the Asbestos-Cement Product Association,
12 true?
13 A. We put a warning on our product in
14 1979, and it was voluntary — we volunteered to put
15 that on.
16 Q. And, sir, that was 12 years after it
17 was first discussed by members of CertainTeed
18 executives at this association meeting, true?
19 A. It was — there was a discussion
20 about putting warnings on products that — if you
21 are going to be greater than the applicable
22 standards.
23 Q. And you took 12 years in order –
24 A. Let me –
25 Q. You took 12 years –

264
1 A. Wait. I wasnt finished my answer.
2 Q. Ill withdraw the last question.
3 Sir, you took 12 years from the time
4 warnings were first discussed before you put a
5 warning on asbestos-cement pipe, true?
6 A. Yes, but we had booklets which we put
7 out prior to putting the warning on the product.
8 Q. Im going to get to that in a second.
9 It was almost 17 years from the time
10 you learned asbestos could cause cancer before you
11 put a warning on the asbestos-cement products, true?
12 A. We didnt put a warning on our pipe
13 until 1979. We did it on our own and it is what it
14 is.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: We can take a break.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
17 4:05.
18 (Discussion is held off the record.)
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
20 at 4:18 p.m.
21 (Exhibit Ambler 19 is marked for
22 identification.)
23 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
24 Q. Between 1970, when the product
25 brochure was approved, and 1974, did CertainTeed

265
1 distribute any material to customers or consumers
2 mentioning the dangers associated with exposure to
3 asbestos?
4 A. No. I mean, Ive already answered
5 that.
6 Q. Now, in 1974, am I correct that, for
7 sewer pipe, an installation guide was distributed by
8 CertainTeed Products Corporation?
9 A. There was one distributed in 74,
10 yes.
11 Q. Ive put before you what I think is
12 Exhibit Number 19, which is an installation guide
13 for asbestos-cement fluid pipe — Fluid-Tite
14 non-pressure sewer pipe.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you seen this document before?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And down in the lower left-hand
20 corner it talks about a revision of March, 1974.
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, this particular brochure — or
24 installation guide, Im sorry, has a caution label
25 or a caution notice concerning asbestos fibers and

266
1 asbestos-cement pipe, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And am I correct this is the first
4 time that such a caution notice was supplied to
5 either a customer or anyone else involved in the
6 consumer side of the CertainTeed asbestos-cement
7 pipe?
8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, for the reasons I
11 told you earlier.
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. And the caution statement reads,
14 Caution, asbestos-cement pipe contains asbestos
15 fibers. Do not cut or machine without protection.
16 Breathing asbestos dust may cause serious bodily
17 harm.
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know what the decision process
21 was to decide to put this caution statement in this
22 manual?
23 A. As I understand it, this is the
24 standard OSHA caution label, and the decision was
25 made to put it in — in this installation guide, and

267
1 like I say, it was put on our pressure pipe
2 installation guide, but I just dont know the year.
3 Q. And do you know why it was
4 incorporated for sewer pipe and not pressure pipe?
5 A. Well, it was eventually. I just
6 dont know the year. It may have been essentially
7 the same time period. I dont know why it was
8 particularly put on this year and — maybe this is
9 the time that this booklet was revised, which it
10 was. They say it was revised.
11 Q. Who was involved in the decision to
12 put this on this brochure?
13 A. I dont know the answer to that.
14 Q. Were you involved?
15 A. No.
16 Q. From your research, do you know who
17 was involved?
18 A. No, I do not.
19 Q. In the standard Interrogatories
20 answered by CertainTeed, in Middlesex County, in
21 response to Interrogatory B20, it indicates that
22 there were a number of individuals in the decision
23 to place a warning on asbestos-cement pipe. They
24 list a Mr. Ponce, Esquire.
25 Do you know who he is?

268
1 A. Yes, he was the corporate attorney at
2 the time.
3 Q. Is he still alive?
4 A. Yes, I believe he is.
5 Q. Do you know where hes located?
6 A. No. Just Philadelphia somewhere.
7 Q. And did he have anything to do with
8 this caution label?
9 A. Which one?
10 Q. The one on Ambler 19.
11 A. I dont know if he did or not.
12 Q. They also list you.
13 A. Thats correct.
14 Q. What — how were you involved in the
15 decision of whether or not to place a warning on any
16 asbestos-cement pipe sold by CertainTeed?
17 A. We are talking about 1979 now.
18 Q. Okay. So –
19 A. And –
20 Q. — you had nothing to do with
21 warnings prior to 1979?
22 A. Well, this was a warning on the
23 product itself, and I was very much involved because
24 I was head of the asbestos-cement pipe division at
25 that point.

269
1 Q. Was Mr. Ponce involved in the 79
2 decision?
3 A. Thats what we are talking about, the
4 79.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I mean, I believe we are.
7 Q. So we dont know, as we sit here
8 today, who was involved in deciding to put this
9 statement in this installation guide?
10 A. I dont know.
11 Q. And is there any way to find that
12 out?
13 A. Not that Im aware of.
14 Q. Now, this statement in the
15 installation guide, am I correct that, unlike the
16 guide approved by the Asbestos-Cement Products
17 Association, there is nothing in here about
18 respirators?
19 A. Thats correct.
20 Q. And there is nothing in here about
21 drilling or using a hammer or anything like that?
22 A. No. But, I mean, for the reasons
23 Ive stated, sir.
24 Q. There is nothing in here about
25 cancer?

270
1 A. No. It just — well, it just says
2 bodily harm, is that correct?
3 Q. Right. There is nothing in here
4 about mesothelioma?
5 A. No, there is not.
6 Q. There is nothing in here that would
7 warn somebody not to bring asbestos dust home to
8 their families?
9 A. Its not in there, no.
10 Q. By the way, you had requirements in
11 the plant, did you not, that would protect against
12 people bringing asbestos dust home on their clothes
13 to their family?
14 A. Requirements? I dont know of any
15 requirements.
16 Q. In other words, people were told that
17 they shouldnt go home with their clothes full of
18 asbestos and bring it home to their family?
19 A. Well, yes, we didnt want anybody to
20 have their clothes full of asbestos because we
21 wanted to be certain that our plants were such that
22 all the asbestos would be going through the exhaust
23 systems.
24 Q. But people in the plant knew and were
25 told specifically that they should not wear their

271
1 work clothes home with asbestos on them, true?
2 A. As far as I know, that came out in
3 the — in the safety meetings, that you shouldnt go
4 home with asbestos on your clothes.
5 Q. But in this manual there is nothing
6 about not bringing asbestos home on your clothes?
7 A. No, because there — as I keep
8 saying, there are two different situations here.
9 Q. There is nothing in this manual that
10 you should not bring asbestos home on your clothing
11 to your family?
12 A. No, because they are two different –
13 as compared to the plant, they are two different
14 situations.
15 Q. Im not asking you now as compared to
16 the plant. Im just asking, in this manual you do
17 not warn anybody not to bring asbestos home on their
18 clothing to their family?
19 A. No, for the reasons that I stated.
20 Q. Now, in 1977 you put out a safe
21 practices guide, correct?
22 A. Recommended work practices, yes.
23 Q. Recommended work practices?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is that the first time that went

272
1 out, recommended work practices, in 1977?
2 A. As a — as a pamphlet, yes.
3 Q. All right.
4 And that was ten years after the
5 discussion of putting a pamphlet out on safe
6 practices occurred at the Asbestos-Cement Products
7 Association, true?
8 A. Well, yes, but it was put out for
9 different reasons. A whole lot of different
10 reasons.
11 Q. It was put out ten years — let me
12 ask you this question. The safe practices — that
13 discussed the dangers of asbestos?
14 A. It — the recommended work practices
15 discussed the proper way to install asbestos-cement
16 pipe, which –
17 Q. Do you know who was involved in
18 drafting –
19 A. I dont think we finished that
20 answer, but thats fine, if youre happy with it.
21 Q. At this point in the day Im neither
22 happy nor unhappy.
23 In 1977 do you know who was involved
24 in the safe practices — in constructing the safe
25 practices guide?

273
1 A. The recommended work practices?
2 Q. Yes, sir.
3 A. Yes. It was — that booklet was
4 talked about — was put together by the
5 Asbestos-Cement Pipe Producers Association and it
6 was approved by the various member companies.
7 Q. And when was it — when did the
8 member companies sit — first sit down to draft that
9 booklet?
10 A. Well, they — the testing was done in
11 March of 77 by EEH, and then as soon as the testing
12 came out, the abrasive disk — power and abrasive
13 disk saw became a problem area, and information was
14 sent out to the field and this booklet was
15 published, and it was published — like I say, it
16 was published by employees of the association and
17 there were meetings to make certain that everybody
18 agreed to it.
19 Q. Well, how long did it take from the
20 time you ran the tests until the time you got the
21 booklet out?
22 A. Well, it has a date on there. I
23 think it was — it could be August. It was the same
24 year. August, 77. I could be wrong on the month,
25 but its right there on the cover of the book.

274
1 Q. This is actually my outline of –
2 A. Im sorry. The book you sent out.
3 Im sorry.
4 Q. So, was it just a matter of months
5 from the time you ran the tests till the time you
6 got the booklet out?
7 A. Yes. I think it was August.
8 Q. So, when you wanted to get the
9 booklet out, you could do it pretty quickly?
10 A. When there was a need to put it out,
11 we could do it very quickly, yes.
12 Q. Well, sir, people were using abrasive
13 saws in the field before 1977, werent they?
14 A. It became our understanding that they
15 were starting to be used prevalently in the
16 mid-70s.
17 Q. Sir, my question is, before 1977
18 people were using abrasive saws in the field?
19 A. And my answer is that it became –
20 came to your understanding it was starting to be
21 used in the mid-1970s, like 75 or 6.
22 Q. So you dont know whether abrasive
23 saws were used to cut asbestos-cement pipe before
24 1975?
25 A. Gas-powered saws, at that time we

275
1 werent aware of any.
2 Q. Did you ever hear of people cutting
3 asbestos-cement pipe with a carborundum blade?
4 A. Yes, but I dont know what that
5 means.
6 Q. And that occurred in the 1960s, did
7 it not?
8 A. I dont know the answer. I already
9 told you about the gas-powered saws, sir, or what
10 our understanding was.
11 Q. Were you aware, sir, that people were
12 cutting asbestos-cement pipe with a carborundum
13 blade in the early 1970s?
14 A. I already answered that question,
15 sir. I mean, when we became aware of it was in the
16 mid-70s.
17 Q. Im asking about a carborundum blade,
18 not –
19 A. Well, I dont know — what do you
20 mean by a carborundum?
21 To me, its not the blade,
22 necessarily, as much as the torque of the saw that
23 you are using.
24 Q. Were you aware, sir, before the
25 mid-1970s, that people were using power saws to cut

276
1 asbestos-cement pipe?
2 A. Gas-powered saws?
3 Q. Any power saws.
4 A. Well, you know, some people were
5 using electric — hand-held electric saws, and they
6 were within the applicable standards, but the
7 high-powered saws with the high rpms, that was the
8 major concern and, like I say, it became our –
9 Q. Sir, I need to know — Im sorry. I
10 cut you off.
11 A. — became our understanding in the
12 mid-70s. 75, 76.
13 MR. EDELL: Let him finish, Chris.
14 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
15 Q. Trying to move to the finish.
16 How do you know that the cutting of
17 asbestos-cement pipe with power saws were within the
18 applicable limits? How do you know that?
19 A. Well, as I said, the hand-held
20 portable electric saws, because they werent
21 developing any torque — and we did test electric
22 lathing machines in 77, and they became — the
23 results were well within the OSHA standards.
24 Q. Did you ever test these hand-held
25 saws that were being used — power saws that were

277
1 being used to cut asbestos-cement pipe?
2 A. The only electric power saw that we
3 tested in 77 was the — was the power lathe.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Is this 20?
5 (Exhibit Ambler 20 is marked for
6 identification.)
7 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
8 Q. You have in front of you Exhibit
9 Number 20, Recommended Work Practices For
10 Asbestos-Cement Pipe.
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Is this a brochure that you put out
14 as part of the Asbestos-Cement Pipe Producers
15 Association in 77?
16 A. Thats correct, yes.
17 Q. And this booklet was intended for
18 whom?
19 A. Well, it was intended for our
20 customer base, which would be our distributors and
21 also the contractors who were installing the
22 products and — excuse me, and engineers and
23 municipal officials.
24 Q. So it was not necessarily for the
25 laborer in the field, am I correct?

278
1 A. Well, it was for the contractors, and
2 this was a part of our shipments for quite a period
3 of time, so –
4 Q. Im going to get to that.
5 A. Well –
6 Q. Im just asking a question. Was this
7 intended for the guy who was a laborer in the field
8 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe?
9 (Discussion is held off the record.)
10 THE WITNESS: Im sorry.
11 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
12 Q. Was this intended for use by the
13 laborer in the field cutting the pipe?
14 A. It was intended for the laborer in
15 the field to use these practices to install our
16 pipe, yes.
17 Q. So you expected the laborer in the
18 field to know and understand this brochure?
19 A. We expected the contractor and the
20 foremen to understand this brochure, plus we had
21 installation instructors in each of our districts
22 who went out and made sure it was understood.
23 Q. My question to you, sir, is, the
24 laborer in the field who was doing the work, did you
25 expect him to read and understand this brochure?

279
1 A. We expected him to be trained by his
2 supervisor on the use of this brochure.
3 Q. All right.
4 So, just so we are clear, this
5 brochure was not intended to be read and followed by
6 the laborer himself or herself?
7 A. No, I cant answer that — thats two
8 questions. It was intended that the laborer would
9 follow these instructions. Whether he read them or
10 not, I cant — Im sure there were some laborers
11 who did and some that didnt, but we — it was
12 our — it was our focus to be certain that the
13 supervisor who was doing the job would know about
14 this and then train his people how to use the
15 product.
16 Q. Thats not my — I just want to get
17 on the same page with you.
18 When you issued this brochure, was it
19 your intention that it was going to be used by the
20 laborers or was it that you were just giving it to
21 the supervisors?
22 A. No. It was — it was our intention
23 that these practices would be used by the laborer –
24 Q. So –
25 A. — the person installing the product.

280
1 Q. So the laborer — they are supposed
2 to understand things like eight-hour time-weighted
3 average, two fibers longer than five micrometers per
4 centimeter? When they read this, thats supposed to
5 mean something to them?
6 A. No, but if you go — it tells you
7 whats approved and whats not approved.
8 Q. Well, Im just trying to understand
9 what the intent of this brochure was, sir. You said
10 it was for the laborers.
11 Im looking where it talks about
12 standards, and you are talking about two fibers
13 longer than five micrometers per cubic centimeter
14 ceiling concentrations. That is what you expected
15 the laborers to understand?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. We expected the laborers to
19 understand the practices that are in this book that
20 you could use to safely install — to install the
21 product within the applicable standards, and its
22 not only easily read, it also has illustrations.
23 Q. Yes, sir. Can we go to Page 6 of the
24 brochure?
25 MR. EDELL: Page 19.

281
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Ill get there.
2 MR. EDELL: Okay.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. Do you see Page 6, sir?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. This is a picture of somebody
7 presumably unloading the pipe?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. No respirator, correct?
10 A. Thats correct.
11 Q. At the bottom it says, Exposure data
12 not currently available, correct?
13 A. Thats correct.
14 Q. The next –
15 A. Well, we have to read it all. I
16 mean –
17 Q. Recommendations based on exposure
18 data for operations believed to be comparable?
19 A. Comparable, yes.
20 Q. Comparable.
21 A. Yes. However, we did two series of
22 testing. We did a series of testing in March of 77
23 and we did another series of testing in December of
24 77 because we werent too happy with the way that
25 was worded, and we did this operation and the series

282
1 of testing in — in December of 77 and it proved us
2 to be right.
3 Q. So you have another brochure — a
4 different version of it?
5 A. Well, it didnt — we didnt put out
6 another brochure until, as you well probably know,
7 until 1988.
8 Q. So the brochure that you kept out
9 until 1988 said you didnt have any exposure data?
10 A. Well, it tells you how to do it, and
11 we never had any questions on — we said this
12 operation was safe, and we never had any questions
13 whether it was or it wasnt, and we say it is, so go
14 ahead and use it.
15 Q. The next page is cutting with a
16 carbide blade.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there is a picture of somebody,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And hes not wearing a respirator,
23 correct?
24 A. Thats correct.
25 Q. And what you say on the bottom is

283
1 Significant amounts of airborne asbestos dust are
2 not produced.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. What did you mean by significant?
5 A. Any — well, there is a study itself,
6 which is not part of this, necessarily, but it means
7 that its — that there is — that the amount of
8 fiber released from this operation was well within
9 the OSHA standards. Well within the OSHA standards.
10 Q. Sir, is it your understanding that
11 the OSHA standards were designed to protect against
12 cancer?
13 A. It was our understanding, sir, that
14 the OSHA standards were designed so that you could
15 manufacture, install and use a safe product.
16 Q. Sir, were you aware that the — OSHA
17 specifically said that the standard would not
18 protect against cancer?
19 A. I saw — heard some wording of that
20 fact, yes, but they were the ones that put the
21 standard out.
22 Q. So, knowing that the OSHA standard
23 would not protect against cancer, you still phrased
24 this booklet the way you did?
25 A. We phrased this booklet as a way to

284
1 install our product within the OSHA standards.
2 Q. Page 9 has a picture of a man using a
3 field lathe, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. To trim — to end trim the product?
6 A. I wanted to read that before I
7 answered your question.
8 Its a little more than end trimming
9 here. You are machining dimensions on the pipe so
10 you can install it into a coupling and seal in the
11 gasket.
12 Q. Okay.
13 So, end trim and re-machine rough
14 pipe barrels, correct?
15 A. Thats correct.
16 Q. Would that process release asbestos
17 fiber?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does this man have a respirator on?
20 A. No.
21 Q. The next –
22 A. But because — I mean, my answer is,
23 no — yes, it does release fiber, but well within
24 the OSHA standard.
25 Q. But you knew the OSHA standards would

285
1 not protect against cancer?
2 A. Well, we — we knew that — we
3 were — it was our understanding that, if you would
4 manufacture, sell — ship and sell and install a
5 product in accordance with the standards, you were
6 doing a safe — you were acting as a responsible
7 company.
8 Q. The next page, sir, talks about power
9 field lathes –
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. — for trimming?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would this process release asbestos
14 fiber?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does this man have a respirator?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The next page, Number 11, has
19 somebody — what is he doing? Filing asbestos pipe
20 with a hand file?
21 A. Yes, hes putting a — hes putting a
22 bevel on the end of the pipe with a hand file.
23 Q. And here it says there is no exposure
24 data available, correct?
25 A. Thats correct.

286
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But there was in the — in the
3 February — excuse me — in the December 77
4 results.
5 Q. Now, the next, Page 12, talks about
6 making cuts into the pipe with a hole cutter,
7 correct?
8 A. With a shell cutter, yes.
9 Q. When did shell cutters first come
10 into existence?
11 A. I dont know the answer to that, but
12 they were in existence ever since I was with the
13 company.
14 Q. So, from at least the 1960s?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And whats the purpose of a shell
17 cutter?
18 A. It depends whether you have to have a
19 hole in the product for some reason.
20 Q. And that was a power-driven tool,
21 correct?
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. Does it say here, Shell cutters
24 consist of a hole cutter housing mounted on the
25 pipe, a carbide or diamond tip hole cutter and a

287
1 manual ratchet, pneumatic, electric or gasoline
2 drive to power the cutting head?
3 A. Yes, but it was all manual. It was
4 all manual.
5 Q. So this is wrong?
6 A. Well, I dont know exactly what all
7 is taking place in there, but thats all inside
8 the — inside that hole cutter, itself.
9 Q. Is this a power tool or not, sir?
10 A. I would not consider it a power tool.
11 Q. Even though it uses electric and gas
12 to drive a cutting head?
13 A. The cutting head within — within the
14 casing. It wasnt exposed.
15 Q. Does this product — does this
16 procedure generate asbestos fiber, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does this man portrayed in this
19 picture have a respirator on?
20 A. No, for the reasons Ive mentioned.
21 Q. The man in the picture does not have
22 a respirator on, correct?
23 A. No, for the reasons I mentioned.
24 Q. I dont understand what that means.
25 A. Well –

288
1 Q. My question simply to you is, does
2 the man have a respirator on doing a procedure that
3 is known to generate asbestos dust?
4 A. And my answer to you is, he does not
5 have a respirator because the amount of asbestos
6 released is well within the OSHA standards.
7 Q. And you tested this procedure, sir?
8 A. It was tested in March of 77, yes.
9 Q. And you say, Do not blow out with
10 compressed air or dry sweep.
11 A. Right.
12 Q. For how long — was that a practice
13 that had been going on before 1977?
14 A. I dont know whether people were
15 doing that or not, but we were telling them not to
16 do it.
17 Q. So you dont know whether or not,
18 before 1977, people were blowing out with compressed
19 air or sweeping up the dust that was generated?
20 A. Well, I dont know if people
21 were blowing it out. I mean, youd have to have a
22 compressor out there to do it. I dont know whether
23 they were blowing it out.
24 Q. What about dry sweeping? Were people
25 using a broom, sir, to sweep up the dust before

289
1 1977?
2 A. Out in the field?
3 Not that Im aware of.
4 Q. So why did you tell them not to do
5 it, sir?
6 A. Just to be sure.
7 Q. Okay.
8 The next picture is somebody
9 drilling –
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. — asbestos-cement pipe?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would the drilling of asbestos-cement
14 pipe and the hitting it with a hammer generate
15 asbestos fiber?
16 A. I dont know about hitting it with a
17 hammer, but drilling it would, yes.
18 Q. Well, the purpose of hitting with a
19 hammer is to knock the hole out where you drilled,
20 correct?
21 A. Thats correct.
22 Q. You dont think thats going to
23 generate asbestos fibers?
24 A. I dont know that. The fiber is
25 encapsulated. Youve already caused the hole, so

290
1 the fiber would — if anything happened, would pull
2 out with what youre — the coupon that you are
3 knocking out.
4 Q. And you didnt have any exposure data
5 for that when you put this pamphlet out, correct?
6 A. Thats correct, but we did in
7 December.
8 Q. The next shows somebody hitting it
9 with a chisel –
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. — correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Does that generate asbestos cement –
14 asbestos fiber?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The next picture on Page 15 is
17 somebody using a tool. What is he doing?
18 A. He is — hes — within that –
19 within that hole tool there is a tapping machine,
20 and hes tapping a hole in the pipe.
21 Q. Would that generate asbestos fiber?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this man wearing a respirator?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The next is a picture of somebody

291
1 using a boring machine? Whats that?
2 A. Where do you see that, sir? Im
3 sorry.
4 Q. Page 16.
5 A. Thats a tapping machine.
6 Q. A tapping machine?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And does that drill into the pipe?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And does that process generate
12 asbestos fiber?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And is this person wearing a
15 respirator?
16 A. No, for the reasons Ive already gone
17 over.
18 Q. Well, it says here you dont have any
19 exposure data for this.
20 A. Well, we did, in March — excuse
21 me — in December.
22 Q. The next is somebody hitting the pipe
23 again with a chisel.
24 A. Well, its a coupling, yes.
25 Q. Would that product generate asbestos

292
1 fiber?
2 A. I dont know how much — yes. Very
3 little, yes.
4 Q. Now we can skip all the way to Page
5 19. This shows a picture of somebody cutting a
6 piece of asbestos-cement pipe with what they say is
7 an abrasive disk dry saw, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And it says, Power-driven saws with
10 abrasive blades, masonry blades should not be used
11 for dry cutting or beveling, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And on this picture it says, Not
14 recommended –
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. — correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Does this picture mention anything
19 about wearing a respirator when you do this process?
20 A. Well, we dont want you to do the
21 process.
22 Q. Is there — in this brochure, in
23 1977, is there any mention of using a respirator
24 with any of the processes depicted in this brochure?
25 A. In this –

293
1 Q. Yes, sir.
2 A. I dont know if there is anything in
3 the front of it — I dont believe there is, but let
4 me just check, please.
5 No, there wouldnt be, because the
6 only process that was tested that would need — you
7 would need a respirator for would be the
8 high-powered abrasive disk saw, and we didnt want
9 people to use that.
10 Q. So what did you want them to use?
11 A. Either the equipment shown on Page 7
12 or the equipment shown on Page 8, which were manual
13 ways to cut pipe.
14 Q. So you didnt want them to use a saw
15 at all?
16 A. Thats correct — a power saw, thats
17 correct.
18 Q. Well, is there anything in here that
19 says that you can use any kind of saw?
20 A. Well, we did some testing later on on
21 a hacksaw — or a hand saw, and you can use that
22 without any issues.
23 Q. Is there anything in this manual that
24 says not to use a saw?
25 A. What saw?

294
1 Q. Any kind of saw. Any hand saw, any
2 electric saw.
3 A. It says not to use the power saw.
4 Q. Right.
5 A. On Page –
6 Q. Abrasive disk drive saw?
7 A. Well, okay. It says dont use a
8 power saw — power-driven saws with abrasive disk,
9 masonry blade –
10 Q. Could you use a saw that had water as
11 part of the process?
12 A. Well, we tested that in — in
13 December and we decided, as an industry, not to
14 recommend that because, you know, you generate so
15 much frictional heat that I dont know how — how
16 good the water is, so we didnt want to take a risk.
17 Q. Is there anything in this brochure
18 that says that, if you dont do the process depicted
19 on Page 7, that you could get cancer?
20 A. There is no — nothing mentioned
21 about cancer. It just mentions about being a
22 possible health hazard.
23 Q. Is the word cancer mentioned
24 anywhere in this brochure?
25 A. No, its not.

295
1 Q. Is there anything that says, if you
2 dont use the process on Page 7, its a health
3 hazard?
4 A. If you dont use the process — no.
5 Its saying what not to use. Its saying dont use
6 the high — the power-driven saws. Dont use those.
7 They are not recommended. Thats a potential health
8 hazard.
9 Q. But we dont know what health hazard?
10 A. What do you mean we dont know?
11 Q. Well, it doesnt tell you what health
12 hazard you are subjected to if you use the power
13 saw?
14 A. Well, we dont want — we dont want
15 you to use it regardless of what the health hazard
16 is.
17 Q. When it talks about clean-up, does it
18 say anything about not letting workers go home with
19 asbestos on their clothing?
20 A. There is nothing in here about
21 asbestos — going home with asbestos on their
22 clothing.
23 Q. Is the word warning anywhere in
24 this brochure?
25 A. I dont remember the word warning

296
1 being used. The only thing is — along those lines
2 is that on Page 19 it says Not recommended.
3 Q. Well, thats not a warning, is it,
4 sir?
5 A. I say thats the only thing thats
6 along those lines.
7 Q. Is the OSHA instruction on asbestos
8 located in the brochure?
9 A. The OSHA instructions? What
10 instructions?
11 Q. Well, did you put in the caution
12 statement that you put in the 1974 brochure for
13 sewer pipe?
14 A. That particular wording was not in
15 this brochure, but it does give the summary of the
16 OSHA asbestos standards.
17 Q. OSHA asbestos standards also talk
18 about cancer, asbestosis and mesothelioma, dont
19 they?
20 A. In some respects, Im sure it does,
21 but we — what was put in this brochure had to do
22 with the exposure limits.
23 Q. It doesnt say that, if you exceed
24 the exposure limits, you could get cancer, does it?
25 A. The word cancer, sir? I mean, Ive

297
1 answered that three times now. Exposure — cancer
2 is not mentioned. It says a harmful — what does it
3 say?
4 Q. Does it have the word harmful in
5 it?
6 A. Im looking, sir. Im looking.
7 Im sorry. It says — its
8 identified as a possible health hazard.
9 Q. Where does it say that, sir?
10 A. On Page 3.
11 Q. Is that what CertainTeed believed,
12 sir, that exposure to asbestos is a possible health
13 hazard, or was it a proven health hazard?
14 A. Well, I dont know whether it was
15 proven or not. Its possible, if you — if you are
16 subjected to substantial amounts of fiber over
17 periods of time, it was a potential — a possible
18 health hazard.
19 Q. You could get cancer?
20 A. You could get cancer, you could get
21 asbestosis.
22 Q. And mesothelioma?
23 A. And — well, thats cancer.
24 Q. But it doesnt say that?
25 A. No, it doesnt say that. It says

298
1 possible health hazard.
2 Q. Now, sir, you say that this was
3 distributed for some period of time with your
4 shipments.
5 A. Thats correct, yes.
6 Q. What period of time?
7 A. Yes, I dont know the answer to that.
8 It depends — I have been trying to find that out,
9 to be perfectly frank about it. Im not so sure
10 that I have an answer to that question, but it
11 was — some plants I believe it was like a year, but
12 then, if new customers came on, then it was
13 obviously sent to a new customer or a new ship-to.
14 Q. What about out of the Ambler plant?
15 When was it used out of the Ambler plant?
16 A. When was — this was used?
17 Q. Yes, sir.
18 A. As soon as it became in print.
19 Q. For how long was it shipped with your
20 asbestos-cement pipe out of the Ambler plant?
21 A. I dont know the length of time,
22 but — I just dont know the length of time.
23 Q. Well, was it two months, three
24 months, six months?
25 A. No. I believe it was sometime around

299
1 a year.
2 Q. About a year?
3 A. I believe that, but I dont know for
4 sure.
5 Q. Well, whats the basis for your
6 statement, sir?
7 A. Because Ive talked to some people
8 and they think it was a year.
9 Q. So, if you got a shipment sometime
10 between 77 and 78 out of the Ambler plant, perhaps
11 you would have gotten this brochure?
12 A. Not perhaps. You would have gotten
13 this brochure.
14 (Discussion is held off the record.)
15 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
16 Q. This brochure was sent with the
17 shipment, sir?
18 A. With the truck, yes.
19 Q. So, if a truck, say, went to Brent
20 Materials?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And then who would get the brochure?
23 Brent Materials?
24 A. Wherever it was being shipped to
25 would get the brochure.

300
1 Q. So, if it was shipped to Brent
2 Materials, it would go to Brent Materials?
3 A. If the load went to Brent Materials,
4 they would have gotten the — they would have gotten
5 the recommended work practices, yes.
6 Q. But if then the — the — Brent
7 Materials took that shipment and took some pipe and
8 sent it to this guy and some pipe to that place, the
9 brochure wouldnt be going with it, would it?
10 A. Not necessarily. However,
11 instructions were given to our installation
12 instructors, also to our salespeople, to make
13 certain all contractors in the field were given this
14 brochure.
15 85,000 of these things were
16 distributed. 85,000.
17 Q. So, when you wanted to put a warning
18 out, you certainly knew how to do it?
19 A. When we felt that there was a need to
20 do something, we knew how to do it, yes.
21 Q. So, you could have distributed
22 85,000 — by the way, if you wanted to, you could
23 have distributed 85,000 of these in 1976, too,
24 correct?
25 A. Well, they were distributed when it

301
1 became published.
2 Q. You could have also distributed it in
3 75, if you wanted to?
4 A. If it was published in 75, it could
5 have been.
6 Q. You had the means to distribute
7 85,000 copies of this in 75, if you wanted to?
8 A. It wasnt published until 77 and
9 thats when it was distributed.
10 Q. So, for the people who were using
11 this product in 1985 — or 75, they didnt get the
12 benefit of this?
13 A. But they also had our installation
14 instructions, and our installation instructions told
15 them how to cut the pipe or machine the pipe in the
16 field, and that was back into the 60s.
17 Q. And that installation instructions
18 said dont use a power saw?
19 A. No, it did not.
20 Q. Okay.
21 So, when you put this brochure
22 together you had no way of really guaranteeing this
23 was ever going to make it to the guy who was doing
24 the work cutting the pipe out in the field, true?
25 A. Whats your definition of

302
1 guarantee? I mean, what else — what else — I
2 guess the question Id ask myself is, what should we
3 have done differently than what we did do to
4 distribute this product — this brochure?
5 Q. Sir –
6 A. Excuse me. I dont know what else we
7 could have done that we didnt do. We had our
8 people out handing it out, we had distributor sales
9 people out handing it out, we put it in the loads,
10 it was advertised in magazines, it was sent out to
11 85,000 different customers, and it was presented at
12 all the local AWWA meetings and all the national
13 meetings.
14 Q. How much did it cost to make a copy
15 of this?
16 A. I have no idea.
17 Q. Was it pennies?
18 A. I have no idea.
19 Q. Was it nickels?
20 A. I have — sir, I have no idea.
21 Q. Could you have attached this to all
22 the pipe?
23 A. What do you mean, attached to it all
24 the pipe?
25 Q. Whenever you sold a piece of pipe,

303
1 you could have attached it to the pipe.
2 A. It was on each truck.
3 Q. One per truck?
4 A. One per truck.
5 Q. So you had an alternative, though,
6 didnt you?
7 A. What was that?
8 Q. You could have put a warning on the
9 pipe itself?
10 A. We did that in 79.
11 Q. But you didnt do it in 77?
12 A. We did it in 79.
13 Q. You didnt do it in 77?
14 A. No. It was an enhancement we did in
15 79.
16 Q. So, if you wanted to make sure that
17 the guy or the gal who was actually cutting the pipe
18 in the field would get warned, you knew how to do it
19 in 1977, didnt you?
20 A. When it became a need to do it, we
21 knew how to do it, yes.
22 Q. So, in 1979 is the first time that
23 you put something on the pipe so that the guy who
24 was actually doing the work would be guaranteed to
25 see something, true?

304
1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
2 the question.
3 THE WITNESS: It was an enhancement
4 we made voluntarily in 79, and we were the only
5 company that did it, by the way.
6 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
7 Q. That was 18 years — 17 years after
8 you learned that asbestos could cause cancer.
9 A. It was right after we — we
10 determined that the abrasive disk saw was the
11 equipment that we did not want them to use, and that
12 came in the mid-70s, and weve already been through
13 when we knew about the reports of different types of
14 cancer.
15 Q. Yes, sir.
16 Now, in 1979 you had another choice
17 to make, did you not?
18 A. What was the other choice?
19 Q. And that was what you were you going
20 to put on the pipe, itself?
21 A. Thats correct.
22 Q. You had a choice to tell the user
23 what the real consequence was of cutting the pipe or
24 you could just tell him that it could hurt them,
25 correct?

305
1 A. We didnt tell them either one of
2 those.
3 Q. Well, what did you put on the pipe in
4 1979?
5 A. Id have to see the warning label,
6 but it says either caution, do not use the abrasive
7 disk saw — power saw, it may have said — to cut or
8 machine this pipe, or refer to the recommended work
9 practices that have been supplied to your — to your
10 supervisor or to your company.
11 I mean, its right in our
12 Interrogatories, what the wording was.
13 Q. It has a caution label and it said
14 dont use an abrasive disk saw, correct? One part
15 of it.
16 A. That was one part of it, yes.
17 Q. The other part was look at the
18 recommended work practices? Thats, presumably, the
19 document in front of you, correct?
20 A. Yes. Refer to the recommended work
21 practices, yes.
22 Q. And if you went back and you looked
23 at the recommended work practices, as somebody who
24 was cutting the product, you would not see the word
25 cancer, true?

306
1 A. The word cancer is not in there.
2 Q. You would not see the word
3 respirator?
4 A. The word respirator is not in
5 there.
6 Q. When you saw the caution on the pipe,
7 it did not say cancer, correct?
8 A. It did not say cancer.
9 Q. It did not say wear a respirator?
10 A. Did not say wear a respirator.
11 Q. It did not say Make sure you dont
12 bring the asbestos on this pipe home to your
13 family?
14 A. All it told you was the proper way to
15 install the product. Thats what it told you, sir.
16 Q. It told you not to use a certain kind
17 of saw. Thats only thing it told you?
18 A. No. It told you what you could use.
19 It did.
20 Q. What did it say?
21 A. Oh, my gosh, we were through those
22 pages –
23 Q. So the only way you could find out,
24 if you were a laborer in the field is, youd have to
25 go back, find the brochure, assuming that your

307
1 employer had it, and read it?
2 A. There is no assumption, sir. I would
3 have to say the employer had it, Number 1; and,
4 Number 2, the employer is the one who is supplying
5 the tools in the field. Its not the laborer
6 supplying his own tools in the field.
7 The laborer doesnt show up with an
8 abrasive disk saw in his hands and say Im going to
9 start cutting pipe. He looked to his supervisor or
10 to his company to supply the necessary materials to
11 install the product.
12 Q. Do you know what my question was?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was it?
15 A. I think I do. Why dont you tell me.
16 Maybe I dont.
17 Q. Im trying to figure out what you are
18 answering.
19 A. Well, I just tried to answer your
20 question, sir.
21 Q. What was my question?
22 A. Well, would you read –
23 MR. EDELL: Lets not play games,
24 okay?
25 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

308
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q. In 1985 somebody in the company made
3 a decision to put the word cancer on the pipe,
4 correct?
5 A. Thats correct.
6 Q. That was 13 years after the
7 executives at CertainTeed rejected the notion of
8 putting the word cancer on the pipe, true?
9 A. Are you talking about the testimony
10 that was given by Mr. Phillips to OSHA?
11 Q. No. Im asking what you know, sir.
12 A. Well, how do you get 13 years?
13 Q. In 1972 am I correct that the
14 executives at CertainTeed had a meeting and they
15 rejected the idea of putting cancer on the pipe?
16 A. I dont know who all got together. I
17 mean, again, Id have to revert — refer back to the
18 presentation that was made by Mr. Phillips, and I
19 dont know who all he talked to, but, as I mentioned
20 to you earlier this morning, sir, it was in — in
21 connection or reference to ingestion. That was his
22 problem — that was the problem he was trying to get
23 away from, ingestion.
24 Q. Sir, did you talk to Mr. Phillips
25 about this?

309
1 A. I dont know whether I ever talked to
2 Bruce about this or not. But, I mean, I think it
3 implies in his testimony ingestion, does it not?
4 Q. Did you do any research — Im not
5 referring to his testimony.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Im asking you, did you do any
8 research in preparing for this deposition to
9 determine the circumstances under which the word
10 cancer was rejected by CertainTeed in 1972? Not
11 what he put in his written testimony.
12 A. Thats the only thing I know, what
13 was in the written testimony.
14 Q. Did you talk to anybody, as the
15 person who was going to come here to testify, to
16 find out what led to the rejection of putting the
17 word cancer on the pipe in 1972?
18 A. No, I cant remember if I — who I
19 talked to, but I do know that it was in reference to
20 ingestion.
21 Q. And you know that because you read
22 some testimony? Is that the only basis?
23 A. I dont know. Like I say, I dont
24 know if I talked to anybody about it or not.
25 Q. Well, if I wanted to know what the

310
1 circumstances were, who would I talk to, who would I
2 ask?
3 A. I have no idea.
4 Q. So, as we sit here today, just to be
5 clear, we dont know and we cant know, from your
6 perspective, what the circumstances were, in terms
7 of discussions at CertainTeed in 1972, about putting
8 cancer or not on the pipe?
9 A. I dont know what discussions were
10 held at CertainTeed. I only can refer back to the
11 testimony that Mr. Phillips gave to OSHA in 1972.
12 Q. All right.
13 What changed between 1979 and 1985,
14 in terms of CertainTeeds knowledge of the dangers
15 of asbestos?
16 A. Nothing.
17 Q. They acquired no new or significant
18 knowledge between 79 and 85 –
19 A. No –
20 Q. — is that what you are saying?
21 A. — not that Im aware of, no.
22 Q. But in 1985 a decision was made to
23 put cancer on the pipe itself, correct?
24 A. It was an enhancement to the label,
25 yes.

311
1 Q. That is the first time that
2 CertainTeed ever warned a user or consumer that
3 exposure to asbestos from a CertainTeed
4 asbestos-cement pipe was capable of causing cancer,
5 true?
6 A. The word cancer is the first time
7 its used that Im aware of.
8 Q. So, from 1962 until 1985 CertainTeed
9 took no steps to warn the consumer or user that
10 exposure to asbestos from asbestos-cement pipe could
11 cause cancer, true?
12 A. Well, CertainTeed — as I said, sir,
13 CertainTeed has installation instructions out there
14 as to the proper way of — of installing our product
15 and be within the applicable standards at the time
16 it was being installed. Thats what we did during
17 that time period.
18 Q. What was my question, sir?
19 A. Well, youd have to repeat it. I
20 tried to answer your question, sir.
21 Q. What was the question?
22 A. I dont recall it verbatim. Tell it
23 to me again or read it back to me.
24 Q. At no time, sir, from 1962 up until
25 1985, did CertainTeed take any steps to warn people

312
1 exposed to asbestos from CertainTeed asbestos-cement
2 pipe about cancer?
3 A. There was never any mention, that Im
4 aware of, in writing anywhere about the word
5 cancer, for the reasons that Ive told you.
6 Q. And what changed between 1979 and
7 1985 that you decided to put the word cancer on
8 the pipe itself?
9 A. It was just a further enhancement
10 that the corporation wanted to make.
11 Q. Something that you could have done in
12 1962, if you wanted to?
13 A. In 62?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. You can do anything at any time
16 period. It wasnt something we felt was needed in
17 1962.
18 Q. What changed between 1979 and 1985
19 that you thought it was necessary to put the word
20 cancer on the pipe?
21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
22 the question.
23 THE WITNESS: It was just a further
24 enhancement and — I mean, the standards were being
25 lowered and we just wanted to be sure that we were

313
1 getting all the information out to the people that
2 we could. It was just a further enhancement.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. And you could have done that in 1979?
5 A. We could have put the word cancer
6 on in 79.
7 Q. And you could have put it on in 77?
8 A. We could have done anything. We
9 didnt have to do what we did do.
10 Q. And, if you wanted to, you could have
11 put it on in 1962, when you first knew that exposure
12 to asbestos could cause cancer?
13 A. In 1962?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. I dont believe that we knew in 62.
16 I mean, roughly 65.
17 Q. Sir, do you remember Mr. Horowitz
18 coming to CertainTeed in 1962, as the safety
19 director, already having attended meetings about
20 asbestos causing cancer?
21 Do you recall that testimony?
22 A. I recall those letters, sir, where he
23 said thats what was being reported.
24 Q. So, when he came to — when he came
25 to CertainTeed in 1962 with the knowledge that

314
1 asbestos could cause cancer, CertainTeed could have
2 put that on its pipe, correct?
3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
4 the question.
5 THE WITNESS: I mean, they could have
6 done anything, but they didnt feel — it wasnt
7 needed to do it at that point. I mean, our pipe was
8 just cut infrequently. It was — it just didnt
9 have to be cut that often to be installed. And the
10 way we were recommending it we were well within the
11 standards.
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q. Sir, what changed between 1964, when
14 you got all the reports from the Selikoff conference
15 of people dying from mesothelioma, including
16 children who were exposed to low doses, and 1985,
17 when you finally put cancer on the pipe?
18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
19 the question.
20 THE WITNESS: Nothing happened. It
21 was just, again, further enhancement on our part by
22 putting that new label on the products.
23 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
24 Q. And you could have done that in 1964,
25 after you got the reports from the Selikoff

315
1 conference, true?
2 A. In 1964 –
3 Q. Yes, sir.
4 A. Hold on. Im trying to answer your
5 question.
6 The actual health effects of asbestos
7 were nowhere near known in 64 as they were later
8 on.
9 Q. Lets do that, then. You put the
10 word cancer on in 85, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. When did you acquire the information
13 that you believe supported the premise that cancer
14 should go on the pipe?
15 A. Well, there was no information that
16 we got. As I said earlier, it was just a further
17 enhancement to a label that we were doing on a — on
18 a non-mandatory level. We were not required to do
19 it. We just did it as a company.
20 Q. And you had the option of doing more
21 than OSHA asked for from 1972 forward, did you not?
22 A. We had the option to do anything from
23 72 forward.
24 Q. And you had the option to include the
25 word cancer, before OSHA was passed, on the pipe,

316
1 didnt you?
2 A. We had the option to do anything. We
3 could have put This pipe is made out of red. We
4 could have put anything on the pipe.
5 Q. But you didnt?
6 A. We did what we felt was needed to
7 have a safe product. Thats what we did.
8 Q. Sir, tell me everything that you did
9 from 1962 until 1977 –
10 (Discussion is held off the record.)
11 MR. PLACITELLA: I guess thats a
12 signal that its an appropriate place to stop.
13 THE WITNESS: Id like to answer that
14 question.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: I didnt finish the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: Oh, Im sorry.
18 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
19 Q. Did you ever — at any point in time,
20 did you ever place on the pipe a warning that
21 negligible amounts of exposure could cause cancer?
22 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
23 the question.
24 THE WITNESS: Negligible? I mean,
25 the label is what the label is, sir. We put two

317
1 labels on our pipe, one in 79 and one in 85, and
2 you know what the wording is.
3 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
4 Q. My question is, did you at any time
5 tell — put a label on your pipe that said Small
6 amounts of exposure can cause cancer?
7 A. We put on our pipe what weve already
8 said we put on our pipe, and those words werent
9 used.
10 Q. Did you ever use — did you ever put
11 on your pipe that family members were at risk from
12 exposure to asbestos?
13 A. That was never put on our pipe.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: The defense lawyers
15 are getting allergic to me, so Ill conclude the
16 questions for today. I think we are out of tape
17 anyway.
18 Thank you.
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes Day
20 1 at 5:19 p.m.
21 (5:20 p.m.)
22
23
24
25

318
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, Sean M. Fallon, a Registered
3 Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the
4 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do hereby certify
5 that, prior to the commencement of the examination,
6 the witness and/or witnesses were sworn by me to
7 testify to the truth and nothing but the truth.
8 I do further certify that the
9 foregoing is a true and accurate computer-aided
10 transcript of the testimony as taken
11 stenographically by and before me at the time, place
12 and on the date hereinbefore set forth.
13 I do further certify that I am
14 neither of counsel nor attorney for any party in
15 this action and that I am not interested in the
16 event nor outcome of this litigation.
17
18
19
20
21
________________________________
22 Registered Professional Reporter
XI00840
23 Notary Public of the Commonwealth
of Pennsylvania
24 My commission expires 12-22-10
25 Dated: _________________

1
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-3458-09
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
3 JOYCE BRADLEY : VIDEOTAPE
: DEPOSITION UPON
4 Plaintiff, : ORAL EXAMINATION
: OF
5 -vs- : LLOYD C. AMBLER
: VOLUME 2
6 3M COMPANY, et als, :
:
7 Defendants. :
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
8 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
9 DOCKET NO. L-1628-09
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
10 GARY R. CHAVAN and JULIE H. :
CHAVAN, Husband and Wife, :
11 :
Plaintiffs, :
12 :
-vs- :
13 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
14 :
Defendants. :
15 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
16 LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-3465-09
17 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
PATRICIA DUGGAN and JOHN J. :
18 DUGGAN, Husband and Wife, :
:
19 Plaintiffs, :
:
20 -vs- :
:
21 3M COMPANY, et als, :
:
22 Defendants. :
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
23 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC.
Certified Court Reporters & Videographers
24 7 Elm Street
Westfield, New Jersey 07090
25 Phone: (908) 789-2000 Fax: (908) 789-2007

2
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-l-3454-09
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
3 ROCCO ANGELO FORTE and JANICE :
FORTE, Husband and Wife, :
4 :
Plaintiffs, :
5 :
-vs- :
6 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
7 :
Defendants. :
8 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
9 LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-8360-06
10 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
MICHAEL C. GERDING, as :
11 Executor of the Estate of :
Augustus C. Gerding, :
12 :
Plaintiffs, :
13 :
-vs- :
14 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
15 :
Defendants. :
16 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
17 LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-5838-06
18 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
CHARLES F. GLOCK and IRENE GLOCK,:
19 Husband and Wife, :
:
20 Plaintiffs, :
:
21 -vs- :
:
22 3M COMPANY, et als, :
:
23 Defendants. :
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
24
25

3
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-3463-09
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
3 PAUL HINSENKAMP. :
:
4 Plaintiff, :
:
5 -vs- :
:
6 3M COMPANY, et als, :
:
7 Defendants. :
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
8 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
9 DOCKET NO. L-2994-09
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
10 JAMES JOHNSON and MARY JOHNSON, :
Husband and Wife, :
11 :
Plaintiffs, :
12 :
-vs- :
13 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
14 :
Defendants. :
15 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
16 LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. L-81-08
17 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
PATRICIA A. SNYDER. :
18 :
Plaintiff, :
19 :
-vs- :
20 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
21 :
Defendants. :
22 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
23
24
25

4
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. L-312-08
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
3 GLADYS THOMAS. individually and :
As Executrix of the Estate of :
4 JOHN A. THOMAS, SR., :
:
5 Plaintiffs, :
:
6 -vs- :
:
7 3M COMPANY, et als, :
:
8 Defendants. :
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
9 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
10 DOCKET NO. L-9455-06
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -:
11 CHARLES H. WECKER and ANN WECKER,:
Husband and Wife, :
12 :
Plaintiffs, :
13 :
-vs- :
14 :
3M COMPANY, et als, :
15 :
Defendants. :
16 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -:
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

5
1 T R A N S C R I P T of the videotaped deposition
2 of the witness, called for Oral Examination in the
3 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken
4 pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and
5 Procedure by and before PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, a Notary
6 Public, Certified Court Reporter and Certified Realtime
7 Court Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the
8 offices of COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C., 2001 Market
9 Street, Suite 2900, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on
10 August 28, 2009, commencing at approximately 8:40 a.m.
11
12 A P P E A R A N C E S:
13 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.
14 127 Maple Avenue
15 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
16 (732) 747-9003
17 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ.
18 Attorneys for Plaintiff, Patricia A. Snyder
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

6
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 CARUSO, POPE, EDELL, PICINI, P.C.
4 60 Route 46 East
5 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
6 (973) 993-8100
7 BY: MARC Z. EDELL, ESQ.
8 -and-
9 GOODWIN PROCTER, LLP
10 901 New York Avenue N.W.
11 Washington, DC 200001
12 (201) 346-4123
13 BY: ELIZABETH RUNYAN GEISE, ESQ.
14 Attorneys for Defendant, CertainTEED Corporation
15 and Lloyd C. Ambler
16
17 LAVIN, ONEIL, RICCI,
18 CEDRONE & DiSIPIO
19 190 N. Independence Mall W. (Suite 500)
20 Philadelphia, Pa. 19106
21 (215) 627-0303
22 BY: BASIL A. DiSIPIO, ESQ.
23 CAROLYN L. MC CORMACK, ESQ.
24 Attorneys for 3M Company and
25 International Business Machines

7
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 REILLY, JANICZEK & MC DEVITT, P.C.
4 The Widner Bldg.
5 One South Penn So. (Suite 410)
6 Philadelphia, Pa. 19107
7 (215) 972-5200
8 BY: ZACHARY D. CREGAR, ESQ.
9 Attorneys for Defendant, Cleaver Brooks
10
11 HARDIN, KUNDLA, MC KEON & POLETTO, P.A.
12 673 Morris Avenue
13 Springfield, New Jersey 07081
14 (973) 912-5222
15 BY: GARY M. SARNO, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant,
17 Calon Insulation
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

8
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 MC GIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C.
4 23 Vreeland Road (Suite 220)
5 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932
6 (973) 822-1110
7 BY: MELISSA ARMBRISTER, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendants, Federated Dept.
9 Stores/Macys, Raritan Supply, DAP,
10 Hollngsworth & Vose, Graybar Electrical,
11 Hubbell Lighting and Horizon HealthCare
12
13 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN
14 100 Century Parkway (Suite 200)
15 Mount Laurel, New Jersey 08054
16 (856) 858-7200
17 BY: IAN M. SIROTA, ESQ.
18 Attorneys for Defendants, John Crane and Karnak
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

9
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 MARKS, ONEILL, OBRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C.
4 Cooper River West
5 6981 North Park Drive (Suite 22)
6 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08109
7 (856) 663-4300
8 BY: RICHARD H. KIM, ESQ.
9 Attorneys for Defendant, General Pacific
10
11 KENT & MC BRIDE, P.C.
12 1617 John F. Kennedy Boulevard (Suite 1200)
13 Philadelphia, Pa. 19103
14 (215) 568-1800
15 BY: THERESA M. MULLANEY, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant, MSA
17
18 MORGAN, MELHUISH, ABRUTYN
19 651 West Mount Pleasant Avenue (Suite 200)
20 Livingston, New Jersey 07039
21 (973) 994-2500
22 BY: WON JAI LEE, ESQ.
23 Attorneys for Defendant, Novartis
24
25

10
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 GOLDFEIN and JOSEPH, P.C.
4 1800 JFK Boulevard (20th Floor)
5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
6 (215) 979-8226
7 BY: MADHURIKA JEREMIAH, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, ACL
9
10 TIERNEY LAW OFFICES
11 116 Village Boulevard (Suite 200)
12 Princeton Forrestal Village
13 Princeton, New Jersey 08540
14 (609) 734-7430
15 BY: TODD L. ARNO, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendants, A.J. Friedman and
17 Elizabeth Industrial Supply
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

11
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE:
2
3 RILEY, HEWITT, WITTE & ROMANO, P.C.
4 650 Washington road (Suite 300)
5 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228
6 (412) 341-9300
7 BY: MARY KATE COLEMAN, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Genuine Parts Company (Chavan)
9
10 HARRIS BEACH, PLLC
11 100 Wall Street
12 New York, New York 10005
13 (212) 313-5416
14 BY: JODIE GROSS PARIS, ESQ.
15 Attorneys for Defendant, Kentile Floors
16 and Progress Lighting
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

12
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 CONNELL FOLEY, LLP
4 85 Livingston Avenue
5 Roseland, New Jersey 07068
6 (973) 535-0500
7 BY: ANDREW B. BUCKMAN, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for The Frank A. Mc Bride
9 Company (Chavan) and Superior Welding Supply, Inc.
10 (Thomas)
11
12 SCHUBERT, BELLWOAR, CAHILL & QUINN, P.C.
13 1500 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
14 Two Penn Center (Suite 1400)
15 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
16 (215) 587-0137
17 BY: KEVIN QUINN, ESQ.
18 Attorneys for Defendant, John F. Scanlan, Inc.
19
20 SILVERSTEIN & STERN, LLP
21 40 Fulton Street
22 New York, New York 10038
23 (212) 385-1444
24 BY: CLIFFORD STERN, ESQ.
25 Attorneys for Defendant, Siemans

13
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, EDELMAN & DICKER, LLP
4 33 Washington Street
5 Newark, New Jersey 07102
6 (973) 735-5994
7 BY: JOSEPH A. GALLO, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Ductmate Industries, Inc.
9 (Gerding and Thomas matters only)
10
11 GIBBONS, P.C.
12 One Gatway Center
13 Newark, New Jersey 07102
14 (973) 596-4463
15 BY: TODD D. ROTH, ESQ.
16 Attorneys for Defendant, Honeywell
17
18 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, P.C.
19 100 Southgate Parkway
20 P.O. Box 1997
21 Morristown, New Jersey 07962
22 (973) 889-4363
23 BY: THOMAS J. COFFEY, ESQ.
24 Attorneys for Defendant, Warner-Lambert Co., LLC
25

14
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 OTOOLE, FERNANDEZ, WEINER, VAN LIEU, LLC
4 80 Pompton Avenue
5 Verona, New Jersey 07044
6 (973) 239-5700
7 BY: JOHN MONAHAN, ESQ.
8 Attorney for Defendants, Clark Reliance,
9 Gould and Dana
10
11 MAYFIELD, TURNER, OMARA,
12 DONNELLY & MC BRIDE, P.A.
13 2201 Route 38 (Suite 300)
14 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002
15 (856) 667-2600
16 BY: KAREN A. MASCIOLI, ESQ.
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Utica Boilers
18
19 MC ELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP
20 1300 Mt. Kemble Avenue
21 Morristown, New Jersey 07692
22 (973) 425-4239
23 BY: DANIEL MALONEY, JR., ESQ.
24 Attorneys for Defendants, Eaton,
25 Allen-Bradley, A.O. Smith and Mobil

15
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 KELLEY, JASONS, MC GOWAN, SPINELLI & HANNA, LLP
4 Two Liberty Place
6 50 South 16th Street (Suite 1900)
7 Philadelphia, Pa. 19102
8 BY: CHRISTINA M. RIDEOUT, ESQ.
9 Attorneys for Defendants, Square D (Chavan)
10 and FMC (Johnson)
11
12 REED SMITH, LLP
13 599 Lexington Avenue
14 New York, New York 10022
15 (212) 205-6025
16 BY: GARY CASMIR, ESQ.
17 Attorneys for Defendant, Pfaulder, Inc.
18
19 HOFHEIMER, GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP
20 530 Fifth Avenue
21 New York, New York 10036
22 (212) 897-7914
23 BY: MARINA I. GLAVIN, ESQ.
24 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American Corp.
25

16
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 BUDD LARNER, P.C.
4 150 JFK Parkway
5 Short Hills, New Jersey 07078
6 (973) 379-4800
7 BY: TERRENCE W. CAMP, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Taubman Co., Inc.
9
10 MARON, MARVEL, BRADLEY & ANDERSON, P.A.
11 1201 N. Market Street (Suite 900)
12 Wilmington, Delaware 19801
13 (302) 425-5177
14 BY: JOHANNA M. DARBY, ESQ.
15 Attorneys for Defendant, Industrial Holdings Corp.
16
17 MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER,
18 COLEMAN & GOGGIN
19 200 Lake Drive East (Suite 300)
20 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002
21 (856) 414-6025
22 BY: MICHELLE I. MOSES, ESQ.
23 Attorneys for Defendants, Pep Boys and Kaiser Gypsum
24
25

17
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS, LLP
3 40 Paterson Street
4 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903
5 (732) 545-4717
6 BY: APRIL GLOGOWER, ESQ.
7 Attorneys for Defendant, Borg Warner
8
9 GARRITY, GRAHAM, MURPHY, GAROFALO & FLINN, P.C.
10 1 Lackawanna Place
11 Montclair, New Jersey 07402
12 (973) 509-7500
13 BY: MICHAEL P. MC GRATH, ESQ.
14 Attorneys for Defendant, State Insulation
15
16 SCHNADER, HARRISON, SEGAL & LEWIS, LLP
17 140 Broadway, Suite 3100
18 New York, New York 10005
19 (212) 973-8161
20 BY: ALLISON FIHMA, ESQ.
21 Attorneys for Defendant, E&B Mill Supply
22
23
24
25

18
1 PRESENT ON SPEAKER PHONE: (Continued)
2
3 HACK, PIRO, ODAY, MERKLINGER, WALLACE & MCKENNA
4 30 Columbia Turnpike
5 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932
6 (973) 301-6500
7 BY: ERIN B. CIRELLI, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant, Johansen
9
10
11
12 ALSO PRESENT: NEW JERSEY CERTIFIED LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHY
13 BY: GERARD J. GENNA, Certified Legal Videographer
14 (609) 577-3253
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

19
1 I N D E X
2
3 WITNESS PAGE
4 LLOYD C. AMBLER
5 Direct by Mr. Placitella 21
6 Cross by Mr. Edell 138
7 Redirect by Mr. Placitella 198, 249
8 Recross by Mr. Edell 244
9
10 E X H I B I T S
11 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION IDENT.
12
13 Ambler 21 Regulatory Impact Analysis 24
14 Ambler 22 Bates CTD 085319-CTD 085354 27
15 Ambler 23 Bates CTD 085355-CTD 085393 37
16 Ambler 24 Letter, 12/20/67 44
17 Ambler 25 Letter, 12/26/67 53
18 Ambler 26 Nashville Banner, 1/17/68 55
19 Ambler 27 Memo, 1/19/68 56
20 Ambler 28 Action Memo, 2/8/68 60
21 Ambler 29 Action Memo, 4/1/68 63
22 Ambler 30 Action Memo, 4/3/68 65
23 Ambler 31 Handwritten note 67
24 Ambler 32 Memo, 4/11/68 69
25 Ambler 33 Memo, 8/6/68 74

20
1 E X H I B I T S (CONTINUED)
2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION IDENT.
3 Ambler 34 Invoice, 6/7/71 76
4 Ambler 35 Invoice, 7/29/71 76
5 Ambler 36 OSHA Comments 82
6 Ambler 37 EPA document, 1/8/74 92
7 Ambler 38 Letter, 2/18/74 94
8 Ambler 39 Letter, 1/30/86 98
9 Ambler 40 EPA Record of Decision 105
10 Ambler 41 Photograph 117
11 Ambler 42* Invoice 126
12 Ambler 43 Invoice, 12/18/70 126
13 Ambler 44 Invoice 126
14 Ambler 45 ATT-NJ-DEG00 78463-0078469 129
15 Ambler 46 Johns-Manville Brochure 137
16 Ambler 47 Joseph Jacksons testimony 160
17 Ambler 48 Letter, 8/5/77 165
18 Ambler 49 Letter, 6/1/64 169
19 Ambler 50 Memo, 9/25/62 171
20 Ambler 51 Letter, 4/14/67 174
21 Ambler 52 Minutes, 11/14/68 178
22 Ambler 53 Letter, 2/18/68 183
23 Ambler 54 Partnership for Prevention 187
24 Ambler 55 Power Point Presentation 253
25 (*NOTE: Ambler 42 not given to reporter)

21
1 L L O Y D C. A M B L E R, 98 Saddle Drive,
2 Furlong, Pennsylvania, having been previously
3 sworn, testified as follows:
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
5 record. Todays deposition will be video recorded.
6 The microphones are live. The camera will continue
7 to run throughout the entire deposition as long as
8 the deposition is continuing on the record.
9 This is a matter of many named
10 plaintiffs versus 3M Company, et al.
11 Todays date is August 28th, 2009. The
12 time is approximately 8:41 a.m. This is Day 2,
13 Volume 2.
14 There are various docket numbers to
15 this case also. Its a video recorded deposition of
16 Lloyd Ambler being taken at Cohen, Placitella & Roth
17 of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
18 I am the camera operator. My name is
19 Gerard Genna from New Jersey Certified Video –
20 Videography.
21 The court reporter is Phyllis Lewis
22 from Brody Court Reporting Services.
23 All appearances will be noted in the
24 transcript.
25 Please start.

22
1 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
3 Q Good morning, Mr. Ambler.
4 How are you?
5 A Good morning.
6 Fine.
7 Q You know you are still under oath,
8 correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Okay. Between last night and this
11 morning, did you review any of the documents that we
12 went over yesterday during the deposition?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q Okay. Did you review anything else
15 between yesterday and today?
16 A I looked at excerpts from Mr. Gerdings — Mr.
17 Gerding, the son, Mr. Gerdings deposition.
18 Q Okay. Is that the only thing?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q All right.
21 Now, yesterday during the latter part
22 of your testimony, you referred to some tests that
23 the Asbestos Cement Pipe Producers Association did
24 for — correct, around 1977?
25 A Yes, sir.

23
1 Q Okay. And one of the statements that I
2 think you made was that the tests proved correct,
3 that it was safe to cut asbestos cement pipe except
4 with an abrasive saw.
5 Is that a fair characterization of your
6 testimony?
7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
8 the question.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And, sir, were you aware in
11 making that statement of the various levels of
12 asbestos exposure that OSHA said were safe in making
13 that statement?
14 A In 1976 I knew that — what the CS standards
15 were, yes, sir.
16 Q You also understand that those
17 standards have changed over time, correct?
18 A They changed in 1986, yes, sir.
19 Q Okay. You are aware that in 1972 the
20 standard was five fibers per cc?
21 A TWA, yes, sir.
22 Q Okay. And then in 1976, it was changed
23 to two fibers per cc?
24 A TWA, yes, sir.
25 Q Okay. And youre aware that in 1975,

24
1 there was a proposal to change the standard to .5
2 fibers per cc?
3 A There was a proposal, yes, sir.
4 Q Okay. And in 1984, there was another
5 proposal to change the standard to .2 fibers per cc,
6 correct?
7 A Ah, I dont know what year that was. I just
8 know what year it was changed.
9 Q All right. And that was two fibers per
10 cc?
11 A Yes. .2, yes, sir –
12 Q All right. And then ultimately –
13 A — TWA.
14 Q — and then ultimately the standard was
15 dropped again to .1 fibers per cc, correct?
16 A Yes. In 1996, I believe it was.
17 Q All right. And even at 1.1 fiber per
18 cc, OSHA said that people who were exposed at that
19 level, three out of every thousand people who were
20 exposed at that level were still going to get
21 cancer, correct?
22 A I dont know what OSHA said about that, sir.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Can we mark
24 this next?
25 THE REPORTER: Do you have the next

25
1 number?
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes. Its I think 21.
3 (Regulatory Impact Analysis marked
4 Exhibit Ambler 21 for identification.)
5 Q I am going to show you what has been
6 marked Ambler 21. I gave a copy to Mr. Edell.
7 This is a document, dated August 10th,
8 1994 from the Federal Register, Joint Center,
9 Occupational Exposure to Asbestos, Department of
10 Labor, Occupational Health and Safety
11 Administration.
12 Have you ever seen this document
13 before?
14 A No, I have not.
15 Q Can you flip to page six of the
16 document?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Would you look at the top of page six,
19 sir?
20 Do you see where it says, OSHAs risk
21 assessment?
22 A On the top of the page?
23 Q Why dont I help you.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Just give it to me, and it might make

26
1 your life a little simpler.
2 All right. The very top paragraph, you
3 see where it says: OSHAs risk assessment also
4 showed that reducing to .1 fiber per cc would reduce
5 excess cancer risk to 3.4 per thousand workers?
6 Do you see that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And do you see, if you skip down
9 one, two — to the fourth paragraph, OSHA says:
10 The .1 fiber cc level leaves a remaining
11 significant risk?
12 A I see that, yes.
13 Q All right. When you were testifying
14 yesterday that your tests showed that cutting
15 asbestos cement pipe with everything — with
16 anything other than an abrasive saw was safe, were
17 you keeping — did you have this statement in mind?
18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
19 the question.
20 A I have never seen this statement. As I said
21 yesterday, sir, it was our understanding that if you
22 were within the OSHA standards, you were supplying a
23 safe product –
24 Q Okay. But you knew this –
25 A — excuse me — this is also in 1996, I

27
1 believe, and we were out of the business by then.
2 Q I understand that.
3 But you did know in 1975 there was a
4 proposal to drop the standard to .5 fibers per cc,
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. Now, because OSHA thought that
8 thats what was necessary to protect people,
9 correct?
10 A I dont know what they thought. I mean, that
11 was their proposal –
12 Q All right.
13 A — and they finally dropped it, what, in 1986,
14 I believe it was.
15 Q Yeah, because the AIA of which you were
16 a member took OSHA to court to fight the
17 implementation of that standard. Isnt that
18 correct?
19 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
20 the question.
21 A I dont know whether they took them to court,
22 but they certainly had some comments about it.
23 Q You fought the .5 fiber cc standard,
24 did you not, you, CertainTEED?
25 A We had comments about it, yes.

28
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Now, mark this 21.
2 THE REPORTER: Do you mean 22?
3 MR. PLACITELLA: 22, Im sorry.
4 (Documents Bates stamped CTD 085319
5 through CTD 085354 marked Exhibit Ambler 22 for
6 identification.)
7 Q You have in front of you P-22. You are
8 familiar with this document, are you not?
9 A Yes, I am.
10 Q This is the March test conduct — March
11 16th test conducted for the Asbestos Cement Pipe
12 Association that you referred to in your testimony
13 yesterday, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. And by the way, do you have any
16 proof that the product that was tested in this test
17 was a CertainTEED product?
18 A I have no way of knowing that.
19 The product EEH was asked to go out and
20 buy the product wherever they wanted to buy it from.
21 Q So you dont know if this was of a
22 CertainTEED asbestos cement pipe?
23 A It was — I dont know that, but it was
24 obviously an asbestos cement product and all of the
25 products were essentially the same as far as

29
1 asbestos content.
2 Q Well, did you have a patent on your
3 product?
4 A On — on certain areas we did, yes.
5 Q Did Johns-Manville have a patent on
6 their product?
7 A On certain areas, but it didnt control — it
8 didnt necessarily mean the amount of asbestos.
9 Q All right.
10 So you had patents on your respective
11 products, so obviously they werent exactly the
12 same, correct?
13 A Well, as far as the ingredients, they were
14 essentially the same. The patents had — the
15 patents were somewhat in process or in joint design.
16 Q But this test, just so we are clear,
17 you have no way of knowing if this was a CertainTEED
18 product that was tested?
19 A I dont know whose product it was.
20 Q Okay. Now, in this test — by the way,
21 in this report, the authors recommend that
22 respirators be used if you are going to cut the
23 asbestos cement pipe with a disc saw, correct?
24 A Abrasive disc saw, yes.
25 Q Okay. And the report itself has a

30
1 number of tables addressing the findings in terms of
2 the fiber levels in the air, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. So, for example, if you look at
5 Table 2, we have — do you see where it says power
6 lathe?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Okay. Was that one of the operations
9 that was depicted in your 1977 brochure?
10 A Power lathe, yes, sir.
11 Q Okay. And here for one of the readings
12 for asbestos cement pressure pipe was .34 fibers per
13 cc, correct?
14 A .34, yes.
15 Q Another one was .57 fibers per cc,
16 right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q The .57 fibers per cc was above the
19 OSHA proposal in 1975, was it not?
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
21 the question.
22 A Well, this is a peak over a 15-minute cycle,
23 and the ceiling at that point was still one, so it
24 wasnt.
25 Q Okay. The power hole cutter, do you

31
1 see that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You had that depicted in your brochure,
4 did you not?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And for the pressure pipe, it
7 shows fiber levels of 1.47, 1.82, 1.66, all of which
8 were above the peak exposure limits proposed at that
9 time, correct?
10 A What was –
11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
12 the question.
13 A — yeah. I dont know what the peak was
14 proposed at that time. The peak was ten at that
15 time.
16 Q You just told me the peak was one.
17 A I made a mistake. It was ten.
18 In 1996, the peak was ten fibers.
19 Q In 1996?
20 A 1976. Excuse me, Im sorry. 1976.
21 Q And what was it in 1984?
22 A 84, it was, ah, still ten.
23 Q And what was it in 1996?
24 A 1996 — I believe it was one in 1996.
25 Q All right.

32
1 So if we went by the 1996 standard as
2 to what was safe and not safe, the power hole cutter
3 readings would be above that standard, true?
4 A If you were in the business in 1996, it would
5 be, yes. We werent in the business then.
6 Q Yes, sir. But you told people who were
7 using the product that it was safe to use in 1997
8 without a respirator. That turned out not to be
9 true.
10 A 1997?
11 Q 1977.
12 A Oh, 77. Well –
13 Q First –
14 A — excuse me.
15 It was — it was in accordance with the
16 OSHA standard in 1977.
17 Q The OSHA standard did not say, did it,
18 sir, that in 1977 that you should not wear a
19 respirator if you were below their standard?
20 A It didnt say that at all. But, again, as I
21 said yesterday, sir, it was our understanding that
22 if you presented a product that was within the OSHA
23 standards, that is what you — you had to do that,
24 and that is what we were doing.
25 Q Yes, sir.

33
1 But for the power hole cutter, where
2 you — you showed in your brochure that you didnt
3 need to wear a respirator, OSHA ultimately concluded
4 that those people could get mesothelioma, didnt
5 they?
6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
7 the question.
8 A When did they conclude that?
9 Q Well, they eventually even lowered the
10 peak standard to one, correct?
11 A Thats correct.
12 Q All right.
13 So for the power hole cutter, your
14 readings are all above one, are they not?
15 A One on a peak level, not on a TWA level.
16 Q Correct. Correct.
17 On a peak level?
18 A Yes, which was within the OSHA standard.
19 Q But it wasnt within the 1996 OSHA
20 standard?
21 A We werent in business in 1996.
22 Q I understand. But what ultimately
23 proved out, sir, that what you were telling people
24 was safe turned out not to be safe, true?
25 A That — we only knew what we knew at the time,

34
1 and at the time we were selling the product, we were
2 within the OSHA standards.
3 Q Well, see, you told me yesterday that
4 you were ultimately proven to be right, but the
5 truth of the matter is, you were ultimately proven
6 to be wrong.
7 A No, sir.
8 I said yesterday that I was proven to
9 be right by these tests on the two ways to cut the
10 pipe, and we stopped manufacturing the product in
11 1992. And what I said yesterday is it was our
12 understanding we had to supply a product that was
13 within standards at the time we were supplying the
14 product.
15 Q But ultimately, if someone was looking
16 at this in terms of todays standards, this would be
17 over todays standards, correct?
18 A It would be over todays standards, yes.
19 Q Okay. And do you remember the picture
20 of the guy without the respirator doing the chisel
21 and rasp?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. Here the stan — the fiber
24 readings are — you have a fiber reading of 3.71,
25 correct?

35
1 A The one test was 3.71, yes.
2 Q All right. Thats over todays OSHA
3 standard, is it not?
4 A It is over todays OSHA standard, yes.
5 Q Okay. Could you go to Table 4?
6 Are you familiar with the second entry,
7 where this table says, Asbestos Levels in Operator,
8 Helper and Area Integrated Samples and in Background
9 Samples? Do you see that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you understand what this table
12 means?
13 A Ah, they were trying to integrate various — I
14 believe they were trying to integrate various
15 operations for the — for either the helper or the
16 operator.
17 Q And what is the second entry about,
18 using a chisel, what is that?
19 A They were using a — the way I understand it,
20 sir, they were using a chisel and abrasive disc saw
21 somewhat in the same operation.
22 Q Okay. And there they — when they put
23 everybodys exposure levels together, it was almost
24 five times of what todays OSHA standard is,
25 correct?

36
1 A But it — yes, but it was within the standards
2 at the time.
3 Q But it was going by what OSHA says is
4 safe today, it would have been five times greater?
5 A Well, if we were in the business — that is
6 right, yes — but if we were in the business today,
7 we wouldnt recommend that.
8 Q Okay. Now, the abrasive disc readings
9 by the way in this test, they were off the chart,
10 werent they? I mean, they had readings of 40 –
11 some 40, some 200. Am I correct?
12 A I have to look at that, sir.
13 What page are you looking at, sir?
14 Q If you look at, for instance, it says
15 Table 2 for sewer pipe, there was a level of 40?
16 A Wait. Excuse me. Just one minute, please.
17 Q Sure.
18 A Yes.
19 Q 40, 49 with an average of 35.5,
20 correct?
21 A Yes, yes.
22 Q And that was how many — how far above
23 the OSHA standard in 1975, how many times above?
24 A The peak level was, as I said, ten fibers, so
25 it was –

37
1 Q It was at least three times higher?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Thats why we said dont use it.
5 Q But you knew people before that were
6 using it?
7 A As I mentioned yesterday, sir, it was our
8 understanding that people were starting to use it in
9 the mid seventies, 75-76 period — by the way, you
10 said, I think, 200 fibers. I didnt see 200
11 fibers –
12 Q Im going to go to the next — Im
13 going to go — I stand corrected on this particular
14 document.
15 A Okay.
16 Q The — so from 1975 until you did the
17 test in 77, how many human beings in the United
18 States were exposed to asbestos fiber three times
19 above the OSHA level before you decided to tell
20 people, do you know?
21 A I dont know how many people were using it,
22 and like I said, it was in — it was roughly in
23 1976, 75-76 period.
24 Q Okay. Put this one away.
25 A Are we done with this?

38
1 Q For now.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Can we mark this one
3 as the next one?
4 THE REPORTER: This will be 23.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, sir — yes,
6 maam. Im sorry.
7 (Documents Bates stamped CTD 085355
8 through CTD 085393 marked Exhibit Ambler 23 for
9 identification.)
10 Q 23 is a December 15th, 1977 test
11 conducted by the Asbestos Cement Producers
12 Association. Is this one of the documents that you
13 referred to in your testimony yesterday?
14 A Ah, yes, sir. But the tests werent conducted
15 by the association. The tests were conducted by the
16 Equitable Environmental Health people.
17 Q For the association?
18 A For the association. It was funded by the
19 association.
20 Q I got it.
21 And do you know whose product was
22 tested?
23 A No, I do not.
24 Q Okay. So you dont know whether it
25 actually tested a CertainTEED product?

39
1 A No, for the reasons I stated earlier. We
2 tried not to know whose product was tested –
3 Q Okay.
4 A — for obvious reasons.
5 Q Well, is the obvious reason so later on
6 you could say whose product — you didnt know whose
7 product was tested?
8 A No. So we couldnt be accused of jury rigging
9 the test samples.
10 Q Okay. Now, can you go to Table 1?
11 A Okay.
12 Q Table 1 talks about the unloading of
13 the asbestos cement pipe, correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Okay. And one of the things that the
16 Table 1 says is that the background level was zero,
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then they have the unloading of the
20 pipe was .03, do you see that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q All right.
23 So to the extent that you have experts
24 coming to trial that say that exposures of above
25 background cause mesothelioma, the unloading of

40
1 asbestos pipe according to your document would
2 contribute to mesothelioma, true?
3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
4 the question.
5 A I dont know of any expert who is saying that.
6 I mean — so I cant comment on your question.
7 Q So youre not going to call any experts
8 in our case or any of these cases to say that
9 exposures above background level would contribute to
10 mesothelioma?
11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
12 the question.
13 A It is not up to me to decide who is going to
14 testify at these cases.
15 Q Okay. Can we go to Table 2?
16 A Sure.
17 Q This table in part refers to an
18 abrasive disc saw, correct?
19 A In part, yes.
20 Q And it talks about using a wet abrasive
21 disc saw, does it not?
22 A Correct, yes.
23 Q And that means that the saw is equipped
24 with wat — so it sprays water on the pipe while the
25 pipe is cut in order to keep the dust down and the

41
1 heat down, correct?
2 A The dust down, correct.
3 Q Right.
4 And even when it was wet, there were
5 readings of a hundred and nine fibers per cc for the
6 person that was actually cutting the pipe, correct?
7 A It was one — one count of a hundred and nine,
8 yes.
9 Q Well, there was another one for 95, and
10 there was another one for 60, correct?
11 A Right.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And there was one for 11, and one for 30.
14 Q All right.
15 So the average for the people who –
16 for instance, cut the pressure pipe was 65 fibers
17 per cc, correct –
18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
19 the question.
20 Q — isnt that what it said?
21 A For those four tests conducted, the mean was
22 65 fibers per cc, yes.
23 Q All right.
24 And that was — the average was more
25 than six times the then OSHA limit, correct?

42
1 A The peak level, yes.
2 Q Okay. And then they also tested
3 helpers, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q They were people who were not cutting
6 the pipe –
7 A Thats correct, yes.
8 Q — correct?
9 And the helpers average exposure was
10 for pressure pipe 49 fibers per cc, correct?
11 A On the mean.
12 Q Right.
13 That was almost five times OSHAs limit
14 at the time, correct?
15 A Thats correct, yes.
16 Q The helper was a bystander, correct?
17 A Ah, well, what — I dont know what your
18 definition of a bystander is. A bystander could be
19 many different things.
20 The helper was standing there prob –
21 most likely holding the pipe while it was being cut.
22 Q And did you not do readings in your
23 test that showed that people 15 feet away were still
24 exposed to asbestos fibers in excess of the OSHA
25 limits?

43
1 A I dont — I dont know if we did or didnt.
2 I didnt see it.
3 Q Do you recall ever testifying to that
4 in prior depositions?
5 A I may have. I dont remember.
6 Q Okay. And, for example, another test
7 was run on sewer pipe, and that showed people
8 cutting the pipe were exposed to almost ten times
9 the OSHA limit, true?
10 A Ten times?
11 Q Yes, sir.
12 A On the average mean?
13 Q No –
14 A There was one –
15 Q — one test — correct –
16 A — one test was nine and a half times, yes,
17 sir.
18 Q Right. And the average — and that
19 average was 42, so that was about four times the
20 OSHA levels.
21 A The mean was 42, yes, sir.
22 Q Okay. Now, ten years earlier when –
23 remember yesterday we were talking about the flurry
24 of activity that went on in 1967 and 68 with the
25 Asbestos Cement Products Association over whether a

44
1 warning should be put out in a handbook? Do you
2 recall that?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
5 the question.
6 THE WITNESS: Im sorry.
7 MR. EDELL: Its okay.
8 Q And that was about ten years earlier,
9 1967, 1968, correct?
10 A Ah, yes.
11 Q Okay. And at about that time, when –
12 whether a warning was going to be given to end-users
13 was being debated, inside of CertainTEED there was a
14 flurry of activity and discussion about asbestos
15 cement pipe and cancer, true?
16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 A I dont know what the definition of a flurry
19 is.
20 Q Well, there was lots of discussion and
21 lots of memos passed back and forth about the
22 subject of asbestos cement pipe and cancer, true?
23 A There were memos that were going back and
24 forth from out — outside memos that were coming in
25 concerning asbestos and cancer, yes.

45
1 Q And those memos came from
2 Johns-Manville, correct?
3 A There were some from Johns-Manville.
4 Q And they came from outside medical
5 consultants, correct?
6 A From — we went all over that yesterday, yes.
7 Q Okay. And then there were internal
8 memos passed around discussing what to do with the
9 information, true?
10 A There were internal memos — memos, ah, that
11 were passed around stating what was said at various
12 conferences, and the only one I remember as to what
13 to do was the one that we looked at from Leon
14 Horowitz.
15 Q Okay.
16 A There may have been others, but that was the
17 only one I remember from yesterday.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Can we mark this,
19 please?
20 What is the next one?
21 THE REPORTER: 24.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: 24.
23 (A letter, dated 12/20/67, marked
24 Exhibit Ambler 24 for identification.)
25 (Discussion held off the record.)

46
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Ready, Jerry?
2 MR. EDELL: He never went off.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, the problem is,
4 you know, Marc, that these things, where he tries to
5 throw me off to try –
6 MR. EDELL: Well, thats what they
7 would say.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
9 (Discussion held off the record.)
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q You have in front of you marked P-24 a
12 letter from Dr. Wright of St. Lukes Hospital to
13 Johns-Manville Corporation, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. Youve seen this document
16 before, have you not?
17 A I — I dont know if I have or not. If I did,
18 it would have been through depositions.
19 Q All right.
20 In the right-hand corner there is
21 handwriting that says Not for use outside of
22 Ambler.
23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you know whose handwriting that is?

47
1 A No, I dont.
2 Q Okay. And this is a letter from a Dr.
3 Wright, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He — he was an advisor to the Asbestos
6 Cement Pipe Association, was he not?
7 A An advisor?
8 Q Yes, sir –
9 A Ah, I dont know –
10 Q — a consultant?
11 A — I dont know if he was a paid consultant or
12 not. He may have been asked opinions now and then,
13 but he wasnt on anybodys payroll with the Asbestos
14 Cement — Asbestos Cement Pipe Association.
15 Q How about the Asbesetos Cement Products
16 Association?
17 A I have no idea.
18 Q All right.
19 You were aware of the activities of Dr.
20 Wright and the advices he was giving to CertainTEED
21 and Manville, were you not?
22 A I dont know –
23 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
24 the question.
25 A — I dont know what advices he was giving to

48
1 CertainTEED. Id have to read anything that you
2 might have.
3 Q Well, one of the concerns that are
4 raised here in Dr. Wrights letter that says Not
5 for use outside of Ambler, is the fact — is the
6 concern that asbestos would be released into the
7 drinking water from your asbestos cement pipe,
8 correct?
9 A Where is that, sir?
10 Im sorry. I would have to read that.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me.
12 Can we go off the record for a minute?
13 For some reason, I am not picking up audio from Mr.
14 Ambler.
15 Off the record.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Marc pulled the plug.
17 MR. EDELL: No.
18 THE WITNESS: I was waiting for –
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Lets take a break,
20 and this way everybody is not sitting here at
21 attention.
22 (Recess taken.)
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
24 at 9:21 a.m.
25

49
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q During our break did you have an
3 opportunity to look at the letter?
4 A I only looked at the first couple of pages.
5 Q Okay. If you flip to page eight, the
6 second full paragraph, there is a sentence that
7 starts towards the bottom, In some circumstances.
8 Do you see that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay.
11 It says: In some circumstances I am
12 told that asbestos cement pipe might slowly lose
13 substance from its inner surface and thus release
14 some asbestos fiber.
15 Do you see that?
16 A Yes.
17 MR. EDELL: Objection.
18 Q This kind of weathering must be very
19 slow — if rapid, it would be economically unwise to
20 use this pipe under such circumstances.
21 See that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q It then goes on to say:
24 With information concerning the volume
25 of water transiting the system, the area of the

50
1 inner surface of the pipe and the rate of the
2 weathering, it should be possible to make some rough
3 calculations of the total fiber dispersal.
4 Do you see that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q I would anticipate that the amount
7 ingested would be so low as to not be the casual
8 exposure range where mesothelioma has not developed
9 with an unusual frequency, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q After you received this letter, did you
12 do any independent testing to determine if asbestos
13 fibers were released from your pipe with the flow of
14 water?
15 MR. EDELL: First, let me object to the
16 hearsay statements that you just read into the
17 record.
18 And secondly, there is no evidence that
19 he received it.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: You mean the — you
21 are contesting that this is not — didnt come from
22 CertainTEEDs files? Is that what youre saying?
23 MR. EDELL: I thought you said what did
24 he do.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: No. I asked after

51
1 this information was transmitted to CertainTEED –
2 when I say he, I mean you, CertainTEED, do you
3 understand that?
4 MR. EDELL: I am just objecting to the
5 form of the question, and I have no idea whether
6 this came from CertainTEEDs files.
7 Q Okay. Can you tell me after receiving
8 this, did you do any independent testing, you,
9 CertainTEED, to determine how much fiber, if at all,
10 was generated from the flow of water through your
11 water pipe?
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 A Well, I dont know if CertainTEED received
15 this letter or not, number one.
16 Number two: Generally it is not
17 weathering that attacks asbestos cement pipe. It is
18 the condition of the water itself, and there are
19 AWWA specifications as to when to use asbestos
20 cement pipe and when not to use it under certain
21 aggressive indexes, and we promoted that you would
22 not use CertainTEED asbestos cement pipe if your
23 aggressive index was such. You could use it when it
24 was a certain value, and we based all of that on the
25 work and the specifications that were put out by

52
1 AWWA.
2 Q Do you remember what my question was,
3 sir?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was it?
6 A Did we do any testing.
7 Q What testing did you do to determine
8 whether asbestos fibers were released through the
9 flow of water in your water pipe?
10 A We did not do any personal testing. I just
11 told you what we did do, though –
12 Q Okay.
13 A — we worked very closely and adhered to the
14 specifications of AWWA.
15 Q So it is clear, after receiving this
16 information, CertainTEED did no testing whatsoever
17 to see if people would be ingesting asbestos fibers
18 as a result of water moving through its pipe, true?
19 MR. EDELL: Objection. Objection to
20 the form of the question.
21 A I guess the clear answer is I dont know
22 whether CertainTEED received this letter or not, and
23 CertainTEED didnt do any testing. They relied on
24 AWWA.
25 Q Okay. You dont know if you received

53
1 this letter that says, Not for use outside of
2 Ambler. Isnt that where your headquarters were,
3 sir?
4 A Ah, CertainTEEDs headquarters were not in
5 Ambler, no.
6 Q You didnt have a factory in Ambler,
7 sir, where you made the pipe?
8 A Oh, yes. You know that as well as I do.
9 Q Yes, sir.
10 Now, this letter also says, Dr. Wright
11 tells — indicates that the current evidence
12 supports the fact that occupational exposure to
13 asbestos causes lung cancer, correct?
14 A Its in that letter, yes. That is his –
15 thats what he is saying in that letter.
16 Q He also says: Fibers small enough to
17 remain airborne and be inhaled or ingested are of
18 necessity visible only under a microscope because
19 they are the order of 40 or less microns in length
20 and less than five microns in diameter.
21 Do you see that?
22 A That is what it says, yes.
23 Q Did you ever tell anybody who was
24 cutting your asbestos cement pipe, that the fibers
25 that could kill them were invisible and that you

54
1 could not see them?
2 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
3 the question.
4 A We never told anybody whether you could or
5 could not see fibers. We told them how to do it.
6 Q Okay. On December 26th, six days
7 later, you received a letter from Johns-Manville
8 with more information about asbestos and cancer and
9 the concern about whether the asbestos — asbestos
10 was being released from the water pipe to the
11 general population, correct?
12 A I dont know what letter you are speaking of,
13 sir.
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this.
15 What number is this?
16 THE REPORTER: 25.
17 (Letter, dated 12/26/67, marked Exhibit
18 Ambler 25 for identification.)
19 Q You have seen this letter before, have
20 you not?
21 A I have seen this letter through depositions,
22 yes.
23 Q And this was six days after the letter
24 that said do not distribute beyond Ambler, and it
25 was from Johns-Manville, correct?

55
1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
2 the question.
3 A This letter was from, ah, — yes,
4 Johns-Manville.
5 Q And it was addressed to CertainTEED
6 amongst others, correct?
7 A That is correct, yes.
8 Q Who did it go to?
9 A It went to Ed Koch.
10 Q And what was his job at that time?
11 A He didnt work for CertainTEED.
12 It went to James Reichel, and Jim
13 Reichel was vice president of sales at the time of
14 this letter for CertainTEED pipe –
15 Q Okay.
16 A — and then it went to Lee Taylor.
17 Q All right. And was the subject of
18 asbestos and cancer mentioned in this letter?
19 A Yes, as it relates –
20 MR. EDELL: Do you have another copy?
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Im sorry. Its my
22 only copy.
23 MR. EDELL: I apologize.
24 A — as best I remember, as it relates to
25 ingestion –

56
1 Q And –
2 A — ingestion of fibers flowing through as –
3 water — flowing through asbestos cement pipe.
4 Q And there was a concerted effort on
5 behalf of CertainTEED to collect all of the
6 newspaper articles that were being published at the
7 time on asbestos and cancer, was there not?
8 A There was a concerted effort to — on
9 everybodys part to get as many newspaper articles
10 as they could concerning the ingestion of fiber.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you mark that,
12 please?
13 THE REPORTER: This is 26.
14 (Nashville Banner article, dated
15 1/17/68, marked Exhibit Ambler 26 marked for
16 identification.)
17 Q You have in front of you a newspaper
18 article marked Ambler 26.
19 You have seen this article before,
20 correct?
21 A Through depositions I have, yes, sir.
22 Q And this was an article that was
23 distributed within CertainTEED concerning the fact
24 that there were municipalities that refused to use
25 asbestos cement pipe because of the concern about

57
1 cancer, correct?
2 A Yeah. I believe this was — pertained
3 specifically to Nashville, where it was a concern to
4 use the pipe because of the release of asbestos
5 fiber into the water.
6 Now, I — with the beginning of your
7 question — what did it say about CertainTeed?
8 (The requested portion was read back by
9 the reporter as follows: Question: And this was
10 an article that was distributed within CertainTEED
11 concerning the fact that there were municipalities
12 that refused to use asbestos cement pipe because of
13 the concern about cancer, correct?)
14 A Okay. I dont know if it was distributed
15 within CertainTEED or not.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this 27, please.
17 (Memo, dated 1/19/58, marked Exhibit
18 Ambler 27 for identification.)
19 Q Im sorry. What are you writing down?
20 A I was just writing down feeding studies and
21 epidemiological studies.
22 Q Ah, sir, what was — was cast iron pipe
23 the main competition for asbestos cement pipe?
24 A When?
25 Q During the 1960s and 1970s.

58
1 A Yes — well, cast or ductal, yes.
2 Q Was there any use that for cast iron
3 pipe — well, scratch that.
4 Could you use cast iron pipe instead of
5 asbestos cement pipe?
6 A In what markets?
7 Q In the, ah, pressure pipe market.
8 A What pressure pipe markets?
9 Q What markets –
10 A Im sorry.
11 In the municipal market you could use
12 either ductal iron or asbestos cement pipe.
13 Q Okay.
14 A In the rural water pressure pipe market, you
15 would never ductal iron pipe.
16 Q So in municipal markets, where — that
17 was carrying drinking water to people, you could use
18 cast iron pipe instead of asbestos cement pipe,
19 right?
20 A You could use either one, right.
21 Q And the cast iron pipe had no health
22 hazards associated with it at all, did it?
23 A I dont know the answer to that. There are
24 people –
25 Q As you sit here –

59
1 A — people who think it did.
2 Q — as you sit here today, do you have
3 any evidence that there was health hazards
4 associated with asbes — with cast iron pipe for
5 drinking water?
6 A I dont have any information to present.
7 Q Now, Im going to show you what has
8 been — a January 19th, 1968 memo, entitled Ambler
9 45 Ardmore Legal, Attention of Mr. Reichel, Subject:
10 Health Hazards of Asbestos Cement Pipe.
11 Have you ever seen this document
12 before?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q Okay. What is Ardmore Legal?
15 A Ardmore was the — at that time was the
16 headquarters for CertainTEED Products Corporation,
17 and it came out of the legal department in the
18 corporate offices.
19 Q From a review of that document, does
20 that refresh your memory as to whether Dr. George
21 Wright was providing advice and information to
22 CertainTEED on asbestos and health?
23 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
24 the question.
25 With — in the context of your

60
1 question, you are — you were asking whether Dr.
2 Wright provided advice to CertainTEED. Now, you are
3 asking whether it refreshes his recollection
4 generally.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats correct.
6 Before he said he didnt know. I am asking if this
7 refreshes his memory.
8 MR. EDELL: As to whether Dr. Wright
9 was providing information –
10 MR. PLACITELLA: Correct.
11 MR. EDELL: — or advice to
12 CertainTEED –
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Correct.
14 MR. EDELL: — or to — or just in
15 general?
16 MR. PLACITELLA: To CertainTEED.
17 MR. EDELL: Okay.
18 A I dont see here where — I answered your
19 question earlier today, sir, and I dont see here
20 where it says he specifically made a presentation to
21 CertainTEED.
22 Q Okay. This is a CertainTEED internal
23 memo, is it not?
24 A That is correct, yes, sir.
25 Q And it is addressed to whom?

61
1 A Ah, James Reichel.
2 Q And he was what?
3 A Ah, he was — at this time he was vice
4 president of sales for pipe.
5 Q Does it discuss advices provided by Dr.
6 Wright?
7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
8 the question.
9 A I mean, it makes reference to Dr. Wright who
10 through Mr. Murray Brown of the U.S. Public Health
11 Center submitted the asbestos problem to the Surgeon
12 General –
13 Q Correct.
14 MR. EDELL: Not to CertainTEED.
15 A — not to CertainTEED.
16 Q Well, CertainTEED was clearly aware of
17 Dr. Wright by virtue of this memo. Would you agree
18 with that?
19 A Oh, I — CertainTEED was aware of Dr. Wright,
20 yes.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Can we mark
22 this next?
23 THE REPORTER: 28.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: 28.
25 (Action Memo, dated 2/8/68, marked

62
1 Exhibit Ambler 28 for identification.)
2 Q I am going to show you what has been
3 marked P-28, which is a February 8th, 1968 memo.
4 Tell me if you have ever seen this
5 before.
6 A I have seen it through depositions, yes, sir.
7 Q And what is it, sir?
8 Is it an internal CertainTEED memo?
9 MR. EDELL: Hold on. Let me take a
10 look at it a minute, please.
11 Thank you.
12 A The second page is not a CertainTEED internal
13 memo.
14 The first page is a CertainTEED
15 internal action memo.
16 Q Yeah. The second page is a — is a
17 memo concerning Johns-Manvilles lawyers that –
18 that Certain — CertainTEED was circulating within
19 the company, true?
20 A It was a note from Mr. Ball, and I am
21 assuming, it is an assumption, that it came to
22 CertainTEED, and then it was circulated from Mr.
23 DeLong to Mr. Reichel, and it has to do with the
24 ingestion issue.
25 Q Who was Mr. DeLong?

63
1 A Mr. DeLong, he was general counsel at that
2 time of the corporation.
3 Q For CertainTEED?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And the second memo talks about not
6 distributing any information to people in the field,
7 does it not?
8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 A It doesnt say any information.
11 It says: This information is to be
12 kept strictly on a top executive level. It is
13 definitely not to be distributed, so I dont know
14 what information — I mean, I have to see what was
15 attached to this.
16 Q Have you ever seen the attachments?
17 A I dont know if I have or I havent.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. I would ask
19 that any attachments to this be produced by
20 CertainTEED.
21 MR. EDELL: I would ask for any
22 attachments to be produced by you.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, are you saying
24 you dont have them?
25 MR. EDELL: I certainly dont have

64
1 them.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
3 Are you saying CertainTEED doesnt have
4 them? I mean, national counsel is here.
5 MS. GEISE: I dont believe we do –
6 MR. EDELL: We have a repository –
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
8 MS. GEISE: — I do not believe that
9 they are Certainteed — I do not believe that they
10 came from CertainTEEDs files, and that does not
11 have a CertainTEED based number on it, which is how
12 we can tell whether or not it is in the repository.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
14 MR. EDELL: Water and Krause document
15 designation?
16 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont think so.
17 I dont think so.
18 Can you mark this 29, please?
19 (Action Memo, 4/1/68, marked Exhibit 29
20 for identification.)
21 Q Who is Mr. A.L. Kent?
22 A Ah, who is he?
23 Q Uh-huh.
24 A I dont know who he is today.
25 At that time he was the district sales

65
1 manager in Atlanta.
2 Q In Atlanta?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And who is Mr. S.E. Price or who was he
5 at that — in 1968?
6 A Ah, Stan came in in 68 as general sales
7 manager for pipe.
8 Q For who, excuse me?
9 A For pipe. General salesman manager.
10 Q So he was a sales manager for the
11 entire country?
12 A For — for asbestos cement pipe, yes.
13 Q Correct.
14 And I want to show you what was marked
15 as P-29. Have you ever seen that document before?
16 A Yes, sir, I have, through depositions.
17 Q And this is an April 1st, 1968 internal
18 CertainTEED memo, correct?
19 A Ah, the — well, the — the routing form is a
20 memo. It is obviously attached to a — some sort of
21 a newspaper article.
22 Q All right. And the –
23 MR. EDELL: Chris, just for
24 consistency, we have been marking documents in this
25 deposition as Ambler 1, et cetera.

66
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
2 MR. EDELL: Now, we are just marking
3 them as plaintiffs exhibit.
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, we should go back
5 and write Ambler on each one, absolutely.
6 MR. EDELL: I just think –
7 MR. PLACITELLA: We will do that at the
8 break.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. EDELL: Thank you.
11 Q This is a memo that routed a newspaper
12 article to the executives within CertainTEED,
13 correct?
14 A To Mr. Price.
15 Q And he was the guy who was in charge of
16 sales for the entire country for asbestos cement
17 pipe, right?
18 A Yes, he was.
19 Q And the title of the newspaper article
20 that is attached is what?
21 A Asbestos Seen A Cancer Cause.
22 Q Now, what was the date of that, 4/1?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this P-Ambler 30,
25 please.

67
1 (Action Memo, dated 4/3/68, marked
2 Exhibit Ambler 30 for identification.)
3 Q I want to show you a memo dated two
4 days later, 4/3/68, to Stan Price. I ask you if you
5 ever have seen this document before.
6 A Yes, I have, through depositions.
7 Q And who is the memo from?
8 A Ray Blanketchip.
9 Q And who was he?
10 A In 68 — ah, you know, Im not sure whether
11 Ray was still in St. Louis or whether he was back at
12 Valley Forge, but there was a transition taking
13 place around that time, and he was either the
14 district sales manager in St. Louis or he was — he
15 became, ah, sales manager for pipe, asbestos cement
16 pipe.
17 Q Okay. So he was a sales manager for
18 asbestos cement pipe?
19 A Well, he was sales manager for all — in St.
20 Louis — yeah, okay, yes, yes, yes.
21 Q Okay. And, Im sorry. Who was the
22 author of the memo?
23 A Ray Blanketchip. That is who you asked me
24 about.
25 Q And — and what was the note that Ray

68
1 puts on the memo at the bottom?
2 THE WITNESS: You want me to read it?
3 Q Please.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, I am asking my
5 attorney.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Three minutes left
7 on the tape.
8 MR. EDELL: You can read it.
9 A It says: Stan — Looks like the cancer or
10 rumor is growing.
11 Ray.
12 Q Thank you.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you mark this
14 P-Ambler 30.
15 THE REPORTER: Do you mean 31?
16 MR. PLACITELLA: 31. Im sorry. 31.
17 (Handwritten note marked Exhibit Ambler
18 31 for identification.)
19 Q I want to show you what was marked as
20 Ambler 31 and ask you if youve ever seen this
21 before.
22 A I dont remember ever seeing this.
23 Q This is a handwritten note, sir?
24 A Yes, it is.
25 Q Who was Adrian?

69
1 A The gentleman that you just asked about me, he
2 was — Adrian Kent was a district sales manager in
3 Atlanta.
4 Q And he was the district sales manager,
5 and he writing this memo to who?
6 A Jimmy Reichel.
7 Q And he was who again?
8 A At this time period, Jimmy was in charge of –
9 he was vice president of sales.
10 Q And what does he write?
11 A More information, Jimmie, on the Nashville
12 Tennessee cancer scare.
13 Well continue to keep you advised.
14 And the national Tennessee was an
15 ingestion thing.
16 By the way, this is — he did — the
17 one you showed me earlier today, sir, he did say he
18 was sending that article to Jimmie, and I guess this
19 is the cover letter that he put on that article.
20 Q Okay. Thank you.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you mark this?
22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Theres one minute
23 left on the tape.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, why dont we
25 stop and you can change it.

70
1 I have a couple more, and then we will
2 take a break. Okay?
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
4 9:48.
5 Back on the record at 9:50.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this 32.
7 (Memo, dated 4/11/68, marked Exhibit
8 Ambler 32 for identification.)
9 Q I am going to show you what was marked
10 as Ambler 32, which again is a memo on April 11th,
11 1968 and ask you if youve ever seen that before.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: I will give you my
13 copy when I am done, okay?
14 MR. EDELL: Okay.
15 A I have seen this through depositions, yes,
16 sir.
17 Q This says Confidential?
18 A Yes, it does.
19 Q Ardmore Admin., what was Ardmore
20 Admin., do you know?
21 A Well, Ardmore, as I mentioned earlier, is
22 the — was at that time the corporate headquarters
23 for CertainTEED Products Corporation, and Admin.
24 was the administration part of that office because
25 Mr. Meier was president of the corporation.

71
1 Q Okay. So that — this was for the
2 whole — this was the corporate headquarters for the
3 entire company?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And a copy of this went to the
6 president of the entire CertainTEED corporation?
7 A A copy of this letter went to him, no.
8 Q It says Malcolm Meier?
9 A Yes, he sent the letter.
10 Q Oh, he sent it?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So the president of CertainTEED sent
13 this?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. This wasnt just the person who
16 was in charge of the asbestos cement pipe. This was
17 the person in charge of all of CertainTEED, correct?
18 A Mr. Meier was president of the corporation.
19 Q Right.
20 So he would have been the one in charge
21 also of the division that sold asbestos shingles
22 ultimately?
23 A He was in charge of the whole corporation,
24 yes, sir.
25 Q And he would have been in charge of

72
1 part of the company that sold asbestos cement?
2 A He was in charge of all CertainTEED, all
3 the — all of the divisions reported to — ah, he
4 was in charge of — eventually — ultimately of all
5 of the divisions in the company –
6 Q All right.
7 A — each division, though, had had its own
8 division manager.
9 Q All right. And then he sends this –
10 it is entitled Asbestos and Health, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And he sent this to a bunch of people?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And just so it is clear who these
15 people are, there is a Mr. Radaker. What was his
16 job?
17 A At that time he was in charge of the pipe
18 division.
19 Q Mr. Alpine?
20 A He was in charge of asbestos cement pipe
21 manufacturing — for pipe manufacturing, yes.
22 Q Mr. Reichel?
23 A He was general sales — vice president of
24 sales for pipe.
25 Q Mr. DeLong?

73
1 A Mr. DeLong was general counsel of the
2 corporation.
3 Q For the whole company?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He was the head lawyer for the whole
6 company.
7 A He was general counsel for the whole company,
8 yes.
9 Q Mr. McNabb?
10 A He was executive vice president of the
11 corporation.
12 Q Mr. Defenbach?
13 A Defenbach, he was CFO for the corporation.
14 Q Mr. Gubar?
15 A I dont know him.
16 Q And he encloses a number of articles,
17 right?
18 A Articles he received from England, yes.
19 Q Including a letter he got from Mr.
20 Bateman?
21 A Correct, a letter, yes, from England, yes.
22 Q And Mr. Bateman was one of the Board –
23 was on the Board of Directors, right? We went over
24 that yesterday?
25 A I dont know if he was or not at this time

74
1 period, but he was at one time.
2 Q And he was also a member of the Board
3 of Directors of Turner & Newell?
4 A I dont know that one or the other.
5 Q Well, you know he was from Turner &
6 Newell, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. So now, six years after taking
9 over the asbestos cement pipe, the president of
10 CertainTEED is corresponding with Turner & Newell
11 about subjects on asbestos and health, correct?
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 A That — this letter doesnt say that.
15 This says that this was sent to him by
16 Turner & Newell. Doesnt say he corresponded with
17 Turner & Newell.
18 Q Oh, he sent a copy of the letter from
19 Mr. Bateman to every — to the lawyers and a bunch
20 of other executives right?
21 A In CertainTEED.
22 Q Correct.
23 A But your question was he was corresponding
24 with Turner & Newell, and this letter doesnt say
25 that.

75
1 Q What I am saying is: He is sending the
2 letter from Mr. Bateman that he got to a whole bunch
3 of other people, right?
4 A That is what this letter says.
5 Q Mr. Bateman worked for Turner & Newell?
6 A Mr. Bateman sent this — corresponded with Mr.
7 Meier and sent this information to Mr. Meier.
8 Q Okay. Now –
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Here, you can have
10 this marked.
11 Can you mark this next, please.
12 (Memo, dated 8/6/68, marked Exhibit
13 Ambler 33 for identification.)
14 Q Sir, I want to show you what was marked
15 as Ambler 33, which is an August 6th, 1968 memo. I
16 ask if you ever seen that before.
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q And, ah, who is the author of this
19 memo?
20 A Ah, Mr. Price.
21 Q And who received the memo and what was
22 their positions at the time?
23 A He sent it to all of the district sales
24 managers, and we also had out in California a
25 separate little group called Marketing West, and he

76
1 sent it to that out — that little group also.
2 Q And Mr. Price is the head sales guy for
3 asbestos cement pipe for the whole country?
4 A At this point I believe Stan was vice
5 president of sales for the group, yes.
6 Q Okay. And he says, This is a
7 confidential memo, and you got to make sure you
8 dont give it to any of the salesmen, right?
9 A Where does it say confidential?
10 Q Well, I think confidential is my
11 word. It says dont give it to any sales — of the
12 sales people.
13 A Thats not all he said, though.
14 Q Go ahead.
15 Read the whole thing for me.
16 A Well, he said: Do not distribute to
17 salesmen.
18 When a situation arises, you are to
19 personally present the case for asbestos cement.
20 Record all interviews with me.
21 And he wanted to make certain — this
22 had to do again with the ingestion issue –
23 Q Yes, sir.
24 A — all of these last few memos youve shown me
25 has to do with the ingestion issue.

77
1 And what Stan wanted to do, he wanted
2 to make sure that the customer was handled properly
3 by the right people and not necessarily a
4 salesperson. He wanted it done on a higher level
5 position.
6 Q Sir, are you aware that my client,
7 Patricia Snyder, drank from water that passed
8 through CertainTEED asbestos cement pipe, and she
9 died from mesothelioma?
10 A I dont know anything about that, sir –
11 Q Okay.
12 A — but there were studies done by the way.
13 Q That wasnt my question, sir.
14 A No, but there were.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
16 Can we mark these two successively,
17 please, Ambler 34 and 35.
18 (Invoice, 6/7/71, marked Exhibit Ambler
19 34 for identification.)
20 (Invoice, 7/29/71, marked Exhibit
21 Ambler 35 for identification.)
22 Q Im going to show you what was marked
23 as Ambler 34 and 35, which I believe are invoices,
24 and you will tell me if they are not, from
25 CertainTEED to the — to — for the delivery of

78
1 asbestos cement pipe to Somerdale, New Jersey, where
2 Mrs. Snyder lived.
3 Are these CertainTEED invoices, sir?
4 MR. EDELL: Can I have the question
5 read back, please?
6 (The requested portion was read back by
7 the reporter as follows: Question: Im going to
8 show you what was marked as Ambler 34 and 35, which
9 I believe are invoices, and you will tell me if they
10 are not, from CertainTEED to the — to — for the
11 delivery of asbestos cement pipe to Somerdale, New
12 Jersey, where Mrs. Snyder lived.
13 Are these CertainTEED invoices, sir?)
14 MR. EDELL: I am going to object to the
15 form of the question.
16 Are you saying that they were actually
17 delivered to her site — the site of her home where
18 she lived?
19 MR. PLACITELLA: No, absolutely not her
20 home.
21 Ill correct it. Let me rephrase the
22 question.
23 Q Are these CertainTEED invoices, sir?
24 A Yes, they are.
25 Q Okay. And what do they show?

79
1 A They show that some asbestos cement sewer
2 pipe –
3 Q Right.
4 A — was sold by CertainTEED, and the customer
5 was Industrial Materials, and it was shipped –
6 which is the same company I said yesterday, Emco –
7 Q Okay.
8 A — thats Industrial Materials, and it was
9 shipped to a location in Somerdale, New Jersey, both
10 invoices.
11 Q Right. I stand corrected, and I
12 apologize.
13 Are you aware, sir, that Mrs. Snyders
14 father worked for the municipality where this pipe
15 was installed?
16 A I dont know any — sir, I dont know anything
17 about the Snyder case –
18 Q Okay.
19 A — I didnt read a thing on the Snyder case.
20 Q Okay. So I apologize for making a
21 misstatement.
22 Now, as of 1971, when this product was
23 delivered to Somerdale, had CertainTEED provided a
24 single warning to anyone about the potential dangers
25 associated with the installation of asbestos cement

80
1 pipe?
2 A All — what CertainTEED did, sir, as I said
3 yesterday numerous times, they — they provided the
4 contractor with installation guides as to how to
5 install the product.
6 Q Sir, did they tell the contractor as of
7 1971, that there was a potential danger associated
8 with the installation of CertainTEED asbestos cement
9 pipe?
10 A They didnt use those words for the reasons I
11 stated yesterday.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Why dont we
13 take a break.
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
15 10:04 a.m.
16 (Recess taken.)
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
18 at 10:13.
19 We are back on the record.
20 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
21 Q Mr. Ambler, remember we discussed Mr.
22 McGinley yesterday?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Mr. McGinley testified on behalf of
25 CertainTEED about asbestos cement pipe before you

81
1 did, correct?
2 A He — I dont know whether he did before me,
3 but he did testify on asbestos cement pipe, yes.
4 Q And he — one of the things he would
5 talk about in his testimony was how exposure to
6 asbestos cement pipe isnt dangerous?
7 A It is not dangerous?
8 Q Correct.
9 A I would have to read and see what John
10 testified to.
11 Q And he ultimately rose to what position
12 in CertainTEED before he retired?
13 A He was a vice president for manufacturing for
14 all pipe products within the pipe group.
15 Q So he was vice president for the entire
16 division?
17 A For the pipe — pipe group, yes.
18 Q And Mr. McGinley died from
19 mesothelioma, correct?
20 A That is correct, yes.
21 Q Now, you recall yesterday we went over
22 the fact that CertainTEED was advised in 1964 that
23 people, including children, were getting
24 mesothelioma from environmental exposures. Do you
25 recall that?

82
1 A I recall a letter so stating that or a report
2 so stating that, yes.
3 Q And that was first discussed in 64,
4 and then again discussed in 1968 at a meeting with
5 the Industrial Hygiene Foundation, correct?
6 A I — I cant recite the dates, but there were
7 two letters that we saw yesterday. I am sure the
8 dates are what you said.
9 Q And that included exposure to children
10 as a result of asbestos coming from inside an
11 asbestos factory, correct?
12 A Id have to see that. I thought it was from
13 mines.
14 Q Do you recall it being also one from an
15 asbestos dump?
16 A Asbestos dump? I dont recall that, but if we
17 have it, we have it.
18 Q Okay. Now, you, CertainTEED, dumped
19 asbestos onto the ground at the Ambler plant for
20 more than a decade, true?
21 A We did dump, ah, on the ground. I — a
22 decade — well, I mean, we started in 62. Im
23 pretty sure we dumped up until 72.
24 Q Well, you didnt close your dump until
25 1977, correct?

83
1 A I dont know exactly when it was — when it
2 was, ah, covered over and shut down, but it was –
3 sometime around that period, yes.
4 Q You generated approximately ten to 20
5 tons of asbestos dust per day from the Ambler plant
6 alone, true?
7 A I dont know the answer to that. That seems
8 like a lot.
9 Q When OSHA was trying to regulate how
10 asbestos was being disposed of, you, CertainTEED,
11 fought their proposals saying that what they would
12 require of you would be too onerous given the amount
13 of asbestos that you dumped on a daily basis, true?
14 A CertainTEED commented at those OSHA hearings,
15 and that was one of the issues that was commented
16 on, yes.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Whats the next
18 number?
19 THE REPORTER: 36.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you mark this
21 P-Ambler 36.
22 (OSHA Comments marked Exhibit Ambler 36
23 for identification.)
24 Q I am going to show you what has been
25 marked as P-Ambler 26 — 36 and ask you whether

84
1 these are the OSHA comments that you referred to in
2 your deposition yesterday.
3 A Yes, sir. Thats correct.
4 Q Thank you.
5 Could you turn to page two, please, the
6 second full paragraph.
7 Do you see where it says: Each plant
8 can generate from 10-20 tons — Im sorry, my
9 fault — annually.
10 See that?
11 A What — what –
12 Q It was my fault. I said daily. It
13 was annually.
14 It says: Each plant can generate from
15 10-20 tons of waste per day?
16 A Ten to 20, that is what it says.
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes. Thats what it says, yes.
19 Q Per day?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And how many plants do you have?
22 A At this period — at this time period we had
23 five.
24 Q Five?
25 A Five mats of plants.

85
1 Q So you were dumping into the
2 environment up to a hundred tons of asbestos per
3 day?
4 A It says tons of waste. It doesnt say all of
5 asbestos –
6 Q Oh, okay.
7 A — and you — I think, sir, your question was
8 Ambler, and I think you used — did you not use 20
9 tons at Ambler?
10 Q I said ten to 20 –
11 A I dont believe — okay –
12 Q — well, let — let me stand corrected.
13 Lets get the facts straight, okay? Okay?
14 A Sure.
15 MR. EDELL: Did Mrs. Snyder live near
16 the dump also?
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Is that an objection?
18 MR. EDELL: Yes.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
20 MR. EDELL: Were wasting an awful lot
21 of time.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Im not wasting time.
23 Q Didnt you testify in prior
24 depositions, sir, that you, CertainTEED, did
25 everything you could to protect people around the

86
1 plants where you worked?
2 A Yes.
3 Q But that is not true, is it?
4 A Well, certainly it is true.
5 Q Well, you dumped asbestos at a rate of
6 a hundred tons per day with no particular way to
7 protect the people who lived in the area, true?
8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 Where is a hundred tons a day?
11 A It says –
12 Q Each plant can generate — you dumped
13 waste?
14 A Waste.
15 Q Okay. That included asbestos?
16 A Included asbestos.
17 Q Let me just make sure we get the facts
18 straight.
19 A Right.
20 Q At ten to 20 tons per day?
21 A Of waste, not asbestos.
22 Q Of waste, which included asbestos?
23 A It included a percentage of asbestos.
24 Q Okay. And that — and you had five
25 plants, and you did up to a hundred tons of asbestos

87
1 containing waste per day, correct?
2 A That is what this state –
3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
4 the question.
5 A — that is what this statement says.
6 Q Okay. So if I said something before
7 that mischaracterized that, I apologize.
8 So we are clear, CertainTEED dumped up
9 to a hundred tons of asbestos-containing waste per
10 day into the environment, true?
11 MR. EDELL: Objection. Objection to
12 the form of the question.
13 A I — I dont know if it was all asbestos laden
14 waste. I mean, there was other waste, too. But
15 obviously, a lot of the waste consisted of asbestos.
16 Q Well, the next line says:
17 Dust is generated primarily from
18 machining the product, correct?
19 A Thats correct.
20 Q That is where they cut it?
21 A Thats correct.
22 Q Okay. Now, most of the dumped waste
23 comes from the reject pipe and the trimmings. Do we
24 agree?
25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of

88
1 the question.
2 When you say dumped waste, are you
3 talking about asbestos waste or are you talking
4 about –
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Asbestos-containing
6 waste.
7 MR. EDELL: What does that mean,
8 asbestos-containing waste?
9 In other words, there could be a
10 hundred-thousand pounds — tons of waste, and if
11 there is a pound of asbestos in there, it is — you
12 are defining that total number as
13 asbestos-containing waste?
14 Q Sir, am I correct, that most of what
15 was discarded into the environment came from reject
16 pipe covering and trimmings –
17 A Ah, well –
18 Q — or pipe and trimming? Im sorry,
19 not pipe covering.
20 A — ah, well into the environment, I mean, we
21 took up to a certain point until we had crushers in
22 all of the plants. We took reject pipe out to
23 dumps, and it was — it was disposed of in
24 accordance with any — any requirements at the
25 dumps.

89
1 Q Okay. So lets just go above this, so
2 we are clear.
3 What you reported was the asbestos
4 content in your product averaged about 15 percent,
5 right?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And that you used annually about 37,500
8 tons of asbestos, correct?
9 A Correct –
10 Q Okay.
11 A — during this time period, correct.
12 Q Right.
13 And the waste in both dust and rejected
14 finished product runs from five to eight percent,
15 correct?
16 A That is what this says, yes.
17 Q 12,000 to 20,000 tons annually?
18 A Thats correct.
19 Q All right. So 12,000 to 20 tons
20 annually was placed by CertainTEED into the
21 environment?
22 A It was taken to dumps.
23 Q Well, the dumps is part of our
24 environment, correct?
25 A Well, yeah, but I mean, you know, depending on

90
1 how people define environment. It was taken to
2 dumps.
3 Q Okay. And at Ambler your dump was
4 located near homes and schools, true?
5 A Just –
6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
7 the question.
8 A — are we finished? Im sorry, sir. Are we
9 finished on the percent of what is being taken out
10 annually?
11 Q Yeah. All I did was ask you — my next
12 question was: Your dump at Ambler, Pennsylvania was
13 located near homes and schools.
14 A Ah, it was located near homes. I dont know
15 where the nearest school was.
16 Q Okay. You did not discontinue the
17 dumping at Ambler until 1977, correct?
18 A I dont know the exact year when we put the
19 crusher in. Ah, it was when we put the crusher in.
20 It was either 76 or 77.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Can we mark –
22 Q So it was somewhere between 76 and
23 77?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Okay. And you are aware, are you not,

91
1 that beginning in the early 1970s, there were
2 actually air samples taken of the dump and areas
3 near the dump to see how much asbestos was being
4 released in the air simply by virtue of the dump
5 being there, correct?
6 A Where?
7 Q At Ambler, Pennsylvania.
8 A Yes. There were dumps — there were air
9 samples taken, yes, sir.
10 Q And some of the air samples close to
11 the dump were high for asbestos content, true?
12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 What do you mean by close to the
15 dump?
16 Q You can answer it.
17 A I — Id have to look at the, ah, samples,
18 other than the testing. I remember seeing the
19 testing.
20 A lot of them were very, very good.
21 There may have been some –
22 (Unidentified voices having a
23 conversation on the speaker phone.)
24 MR. DiSIPIO: Mute the phone, please.
25 Im sorry.

92
1 A — there may have been some –
2 (Unidentified voices having a
3 conversation on the speaker phone.)
4 MR. PLACITELLA: You guys got to stop
5 conducting business or mute your phones, please.
6 Go ahead. Im sorry.
7 A — I dont know exactly what the counts were,
8 but there are — there is information on that.
9 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE ON THE SPEAKER
10 PHONE: Okay. Im trying not to say anything
11 here, but we have been disconnected as a result of
12 the guy who was talking about the deposition?
13 MR. PLACITELLA: How do we fix this?
14 How do you put this back on?
15 (Unidentified voices on the speaker
16 phone talking.)
17 MR. PLACITELLA: No, you are still
18 here.
19 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE ON THE SPEAKER
20 PHONE: Okay. Thank you. Im very sorry.
21 A VOICE: Can everybody put their
22 phones on mute?
23 Thank you.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this, please.
25 THE REPORTER: Ambler 37.

93
1 MR. PLACITELLA: 37.
2 (EPA document, 1/8/74, marked Exhibit
3 Ambler 37 for identification.)
4 THE REPORTER: Should I give this to
5 the witness?
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, please.
7 Q Sir, you have in front of you a January
8 8th, 1974 EPA document.
9 Have you ever seen this document
10 before?
11 A Not that I can recall, sir.
12 Q Okay. Go to the table that is
13 attached, sir. See where it says, Table 1
14 Concentration of Asbestos – Pennsylvania?
15 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE ON THE SPEAKER
16 PHONE: Excuse me. Whoever is typing, mute your
17 phone. It is star six.
18 Thank you.
19 Q See that, sir?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you see where — in the middle where
22 it talks about CertainTEED active pile?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Thats your dump, right?
25 A I dont know. Im –

94
1 Q Thats — and what is the concentration
2 of asbestos that they found, sir, in your pile –
3 with respect to the air near your pile?
4 A Ah, I dont even know what that nomenclature,
5 that concentration is. It is 210 — whats that –
6 MR. EDELL: Mg slash M –
7 A — cubic meters. I dont know what that
8 means.
9 Q Was this information ever made known to
10 you, that you were generating asbestos fibers in the
11 air in 1974 at a level of 210?
12 A 210 what? I dont know what that means, sir.
13 Q So you were never told, I guess, by
14 anybody at the corporation that your pile — that
15 your piles were generating asbestos fibers in the
16 air?
17 A Ah, I know that — there were times when there
18 were tests — dust counts made at the plant –
19 excuse me — at the Ambler dump. But, you know, I
20 mean, I didnt have a part in that. I dont know
21 what was transpiring and what wasnt.
22 We tried to make certain that our dump
23 was within the requirements.
24 Q Do you know whether the number 210 is
25 within the requirements now?

95
1 A I dont know what it is. I said that twice
2 now. I dont know what it is.
3 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you give me
4 21574?
5 Q Where is Locust Avenue, sir, in
6 relation to the Ambler dump?
7 A I dont know. I would have to — I mean, the
8 dump is right along Main Street. I dont know where
9 Locust comes in, or it was right along Main Street.
10 Q Was Locust Avenue somewhere near — Im
11 sorry. Scratch that.
12 Where was Chestnut Street in relation
13 to the Ambler dump?
14 A I dont know where Chestnut Street was. I
15 would have to look at a map.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you mark this
17 next, please.
18 (Letter, dated 2/18/74, marked Exhibit
19 Ambler 38 for identification.)
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Whats that number,
21 please?
22 THE REPORTER: 38.
23 Q I show you what was marked as P-38 and
24 ask if youve ever seen that before.
25 MR. EDELL: Youre a fast reader.

96
1 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?
2 MR. EDELL: I said youre a fast
3 reader.
4 THE WITNESS: Ah, I didnt read it. I
5 just want to see it. Im sorry.
6 Q Let me ask you a question in the
7 meantime.
8 What was the address for the Ambler
9 plant?
10 A The street address, I dont know.
11 Q What about the dump?
12 A It was all — I dont know. It was along Main
13 Street.
14 Q Main Street in Ambler, Pennsylvania?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Do you know whether it was North or
17 South Main Street?
18 A I dont know the answer to that.
19 Q This document, sir, do you need more
20 time?
21 A No. I am going to try to answer your
22 questions.
23 Q This document refers — this is
24 February 15th, 1974?
25 A Yes.

97
1 Q And it refers to the disposal piles in
2 Ambler, Pennsylvania, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And one of the things that was done in
5 this study was they looked at your disposal pile
6 again, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q This time they found a number –
9 average number of 114.5, correct?
10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
11 the question.
12 A A hundred fourteen — excuse me, Im sorry.
13 MR. EDELL: What does that mean?
14 MR. PLACITELLA: Im asking if that is
15 the number.
16 MR. EDELL: The number of what?
17 A I dont know what it means. There is a number
18 here of 114.5 –
19 Q Okay.
20 A — but I dont know what Mg slash metered
21 square means.
22 Q And then down under number nine, there
23 is a reading for — for 212 Chestnut Street,
24 correct –
25 MR. EDELL: South Chestnut.

98
1 Q — South Chestnut Street?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And that shows that there was actually
4 asbestos fiber, does it not, found at 212 South
5 Chestnut Street?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Which is about a block or two from your
8 plant, correct?
9 MR. EDELL: Where does it say fiber?
10 THE WITNESS: 21.
11 MR. EDELL: Mg is fiber.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, its the asbestos
13 concentration, the average, but I dont know what Mg
14 slash means.
15 MR. EDELL: Monograms per cubic
16 meter –
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I dont know what
18 that is. I dont know how to convert it.
19 Q They didnt find zero asbestos there.
20 They found a level of 21, correct?
21 A On the average, yes. They found anywhere
22 between 13 and 27.
23 Q That was actually higher than the level
24 they found at the sewage disposal plant?
25 A Thats correct, yes –

99
1 Q Now –
2 A — but I dont know. You said — what was
3 your question concerning the South Chestnut Street
4 and CertainTEEDs dump? I think you said –
5 Q How close was it? It was a block or
6 two, correct?
7 A I dont know the answer to that. I have to
8 look at a map.
9 Q Well, we can do that at the break. I
10 was trying to do it while we were sitting. I was
11 trying to do it.
12 All right. Now, a scientist from Mount
13 Sinai actually came to your plant, looked at the
14 dump, and authored a report, correct?
15 A I dont know if he did or didnt.
16 Q And Mount Sinai is where Dr. Selikoff
17 was from?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: All right. Give me
20 the — this will be P-Ambler 39.
21 (Letter, dated 1/30/86, marked Exhibit
22 Ambler 39 for identification.)
23 Q Sir, you have in front of you a letter
24 from Dr. Holstein to the United States EPA
25 concerning your dump at the Ambler, Pennsylvania –

100
1 in Ambler, Pennsylvania, correct?
2 A Im sorry to take so much time, sir, but I was
3 trying to figure out where it said CertainTEED
4 Ambler, Pennsylvania dump, and it doesnt say that.
5 Q Is there more than one asbestos dump in
6 Ambler, Pennsylvania?
7 A Yes, sir, there is.
8 Q What is the other one?
9 A Nicolet had a big dump there.
10 Q Okay. And how far away was that from
11 yours?
12 A They were adjacent to each other.
13 Q Right next door to each other?
14 A They were adjacent to each other, yes.
15 Q Okay.
16 A So this could have been on the Nicolet dump
17 for all I know.
18 Q And what — and the Nicolet dump, what
19 kind of a product did they dump?
20 A They made asbestos cement products and
21 asbestos products.
22 Q Okay. So was the composition in their
23 dump approximately the same as what was in your
24 dump?
25 A I dont know what their composition was.

101
1 Q Did you have a chain link fence around
2 your dump?
3 A Both dumps did, yes.
4 Q Did you have a playground near your
5 dump?
6 A Both dumps did.
7 MR. EDELL: We are going far, far
8 beyond your deposition notice.
9 I have given you a lot of latitude on
10 this, but unless you can show me specifically where
11 your notice asks for us to have produced somebody
12 with respect to corporate representative that would
13 testify with respect to the discharge of asbestos
14 waste and the manufacturing process, or the dumps
15 where it was placed, I dont see where we are going.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Is that an objection?
17 MR. EDELL: No. It may be the end of
18 this line of questioning.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, my position is
20 simply this: CertainTEED was advised in 1964 about
21 how people were going to be protected. They didnt
22 protect the workers, and they didnt protect the
23 people in the environment.
24 This witness has testified under oath
25 that CertainTEED did everything that it could to

102
1 protect people in the environment from asbestos
2 escaping from their plant.
3 This line of questioning goes, one,
4 substantively, and two, directly to the credibility
5 of the witness when he said that CertainTEED did
6 everything that it could, and that it did not
7 pollute the environment when, in fact, the evidence
8 is clear that CertainTEED did pollute the
9 environment, and they did it with impunity for 20
10 years. That is the reason I am asking the
11 questions.
12 MR. EDELL: Then I am going to — Im
13 going to discuss with the witness whether hes ever
14 testified to that effect and –
15 MR. PLACITELLA: He already testified
16 that CertainTEED — he said that CertainTEED did
17 everything possible and did not pollute the
18 environment. That is what he said.
19 MR. EDELL: Okay. Either Im going to
20 stop the deposition and without asking him any more
21 ques — the question that I wanted to ask him or –
22 and you will continue with another line of
23 questioning, or you call the Court.
24 I am going to ask him a question
25 regarding your representations as to what he

103
1 testified to at other depositions, and if I
2 believe –
3 MR. PLACITELLA: I just asked him that
4 question –
5 MR. EDELL: — and if I believe it
6 relates to his credibility, then perhaps we will
7 continue for some limited further examination.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
9 So you are going to talk to the witness
10 during my examination contrary to the court rules?
11 MR. EDELL: Not about this deposition.
12 About what occurred at a different deposition.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: I say you cant do
14 this at this point, and you are violating the court
15 rules, but if you want to violate them with
16 impunity –
17 MR. EDELL: Okay.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: — then thats quite
19 all right –
20 MR. EDELL: Then that is fine. Then we
21 wont continue with this line of questioning.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: I will just ask him
23 the questions.
24 Q Did you ever testify at a prior
25 deposition, sir, that CertainTEED did everything it

104
1 could to prevent the asbestos from escaping from its
2 plant?
3 A We did everything we could to have a safe
4 environment for the people, yes.
5 And as we learned more things to do or
6 if we learned we were making a mistake, we corrected
7 those.
8 Q All right.
9 And when you say safe environment for
10 the people, you mean the people who lived in the
11 vicinity of the CertainTEED plant, correct?
12 A The people outside of the plant, yes.
13 Q All right.
14 And you knew that there was asbestos
15 escaping from your plant, true?
16 A Ah, in what respect?
17 Q Im just asking you a general question.
18 A Well, I mean through emissions from the plant,
19 fiber emissions from the plant?
20 Q Well, did that happen, sir?
21 A Well, I, you know, Id have to go back and
22 read some air — air studies on that, but there were
23 air studies done by various agencies around some of
24 our plants, and we obviously tried to make certain
25 that the environment within the plant was clean to

105
1 the best of our ability, which would have — which
2 would result in a clean environment on the outside.
3 Q Yes, sir.
4 And youve testified that you protected
5 the people on the outside from the escape of
6 asbestos from your facility to the neighboring
7 community, have you not?
8 A To the best of our ability.
9 And if something was tested, and it
10 showed that we had an issue, we tried to correct it
11 right away.
12 Q And, sir, did you also at some point
13 testify that you stopped dumping asbestos around
14 1972?
15 A 72 — well, depending on when we put the –
16 the, ah, the scrap in at the various plants is when
17 we, to the best of our ability, we stopped.
18 There was some materials that went out
19 to the dump, waste materials, but not — not broken
20 pipe or anything or damaged pipe.
21 Q Sir, are you aware that asbestos
22 escaped from your plant and/or dump into the
23 neighboring community?
24 A I know that there were some tests done at –
25 at the dump in Ambler, and there were some results

106
1 that were above the acceptable levels, and we tried
2 to take — we did not try — we took corrective
3 action right way.
4 Q So you went into the yards of the
5 people in the community and took the asbestos out of
6 their yards?
7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
8 the question.
9 A No. We only took corrective action at the –
10 at the individual dump site.
11 Q Well, what did you do for the people
12 who lived in the community, where your asbestos had
13 traveled to?
14 A I dont know –
15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
16 the question.
17 A — I dont know if it traveled to a community
18 or not.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Pull out the final
20 report, if you have it.
21 Can you mark this next, Ambler 40?
22 (Discussion held off the record.)
23 (EPA Record of Decision marked Exhibit
24 Ambler 40 for identification.)
25 Q Sir, you have in front of you marked –

107
1 is it 40 — P-Ambler 40, which is the EPA Superfund
2 Record of Decision in 1989.
3 Have you ever seen that before?
4 A No, I have not.
5 Q Okay. Can you turn to Section 2 where
6 it talks about site history?
7 Do you see where it says the type of
8 waste that CertainTEED dumped, sir?
9 A Yes.
10 Q It says: The second type of waste was
11 asbestos-cement (A-C) scrap, which originated mainly
12 from reject pipe and pipe lathe turnings generated
13 during the pipe finishing operation. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q That is what we talked about before?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay.
18 The waste consisted of a mixture of
19 10-20 percent asbestos fiber interlocked within an
20 89 — 80-90 percent calcium silicate complex
21 matrix, which was created by autoclaving the
22 mixture…
23 Do you see that? And it goes on as to
24 how it was done.
25 A Yeah. But it was — its 20 — 10 to 20

108
1 percent of the — the asbestos was 10 to 20 percent
2 of the total reject pipe.
3 Q Okay. And then it says:
4 From time to time CertainTEED hired an
5 outside company to bulldoze the pipe in order to
6 crush, flatten and consolidate the waste.
7 Do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you recall that happening?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And who was the company that you hired
12 to bulldoze the pipe?
13 A I dont know who it was.
14 Q All right.
15 And when they were bulldozing the pipe,
16 did you take any air samples to see how much
17 asbestos was released into the air when they were
18 bulldozing the pipe?
19 A There were samples taken, yes.
20 Q And do you know what the results of
21 those samples were?
22 A Ah, they were, as best as I can recall, they
23 were very much in — within the requirements at the
24 time.
25 Q All right.

109
1 It says, if you skip down two more
2 paragraphs, it talks about land use around your
3 site, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And it says that includes industrial,
6 right? Residential, commercial and transportation,
7 is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. The CertainTEED pile is located
10 within an industrial zone, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Residential housing and an adjoining
13 playground are located approximately 300 feet east
14 of the site, correct?
15 A That is what this says, yes.
16 Q Numerous educational and recreational
17 facilities are located within 1.2 miles of the
18 site, correct?
19 A Yes, thats what it says.
20 Q All right. At the bottom of the page
21 it indicates that you discontinued dumping in 1977,
22 correct?
23 A That is what it says, yes.
24 Q Do you have any reason to doubt that?
25 A I dont know when the scrap crusher was put

110
1 in. It was around that time period.
2 Q Well, it also indicates on the next
3 page that testing was done of a creek that flows
4 through a farm, and that asbestos was found in the
5 creek, correct, down on the third — fourth full
6 paragraph?
7 A It says that asbestos was detected both
8 upstream and downstream of the closed site, and I am
9 assuming that there was asbestos detected in the
10 water above our site and below, so –
11 Q Okay.
12 A — evidently, there must have been asbestos
13 getting into that water from places other than our
14 site.
15 Q And then two more paragraphs down it
16 talks about it again. It says: During
17 CertainTEEDs 1988 investigation.
18 Did you do an investigation in 88?
19 A Im sure we did, if it says it.
20 Q It says: Asbestos was detected in the
21 onsite air, correct?
22 A That is what it says.
23 Q All right.
24 The CertainTEED pile, that is the dump
25 pile, right?

111
1 A Yes.
2 Q And in the creek?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Could you go to Section B where it
5 says –
6 A Im sorry. What page are you on?
7 Q I will count the pages for you.
8 Assuming the cover is the first page,
9 it would be one, two, three, four, five, six — the
10 sixth page, where it says, Contamination Problem.
11 A Yes.
12 Q The main contaminant of concern is
13 asbestos, correct?
14 A Thats what it says.
15 Q The source of contamination associated
16 with this operable unit is the CertainTEED asbestos
17 pile, correct?
18 A Thats what it says, yes.
19 Q The roots of exposure are inhalation
20 via ambient air and ingestion which may result from
21 the ingestion of soil or surface water containing
22 asbestos, correct?
23 A Thats what it says.
24 Q Next paragraph: Sampling events on
25 and near the CertainTEED pile have demonstrated that

112
1 asbestos fibers may have migrated offsite from the
2 pile into the surrounding ambient air and adjacent
3 surface water, correct?
4 A It says it may have. I dont know what that
5 means.
6 Q Lets just skip to the — the next
7 page, to Conclusions.
8 It says: The analysis for asbestos
9 fibers in ambient air during the test pit and test
10 pit boring investigations indicate that any gross
11 disturbance of the in-place materials will likely
12 cause a significant degradation of the ambient air
13 quality. Correct?
14 A Thats what it says.
15 Q And it says the — one of the problems
16 is that there are people living and playing near the
17 dump, right?
18 A Where does it say that?
19 Q Potential asbestos inhalation
20 exposures also exist if a person or persons are
21 playing on or near the exposed areas and
22 asbestos-containing material is disturbed, correct?
23 A Thats what it says. Playing on the dump,
24 which the dump was fenced in.
25 Q Right.

113
1 But you knew kids were climbing up over
2 the fence?
3 A And we took — we were always working on this
4 dump in the late eighties, making certain that we
5 had a safe operation there –
6 Q And you knew –
7 A — the plant was closed down by the way at
8 this point.
9 Q — you knew in the seventies that the
10 kids were climbing over the fence, didnt you?
11 A I dont know what was done in the seventies,
12 sir.
13 Q Okay –
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Two minutes on the
15 tape.
16 Q — go to the next page, Summary of
17 Risks, and Ill stop with this document.
18 See where it says, The contaminant of
19 concern?
20 A Yes.
21 Q The contaminate of concern at the
22 CertainTEED pile is asbestos, in particular, the
23 potential for asbestos to be released to the ambient
24 air. Asbestos is a recognized human carcinogen
25 causing lung cancer and mesothelioma, a form of

114
1 neoplasm of the lining of the thoracic and abdominal
2 cavities. See that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. In your preparation for the
5 80-some-odd depositions that you have given about
6 CertainTEED and asbestos, no one has ever shown you
7 this document?
8 A I dont remember seeing this document, no.
9 Q And no one has ever shown it to you in
10 a deposition before?
11 A I dont remember seeing this document before,
12 sir.
13 Q Sir, is it still your opinion that no
14 asbestos ever escaped from the CertainTEED plant
15 into the surrounding neighborhoods?
16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 A I dont believe I ever said that, sir.
19 I think what I said is that at
20 CertainTEED, we tried to make certain that we had a
21 safe environment at the plant and a safe environment
22 outside of the plant, and we did a lot of work at
23 the Ambler dump. As things were brought to our
24 attention, a lot of corrective action was taken.
25 Q In 1972, when OSHA wanted you to

115
1 dispose of the product a different way and not put
2 it into a dump, you opposed that, correct?
3 A Where did it say they didnt want us to put it
4 in the dump?
5 They wanted us to do it a certain way.
6 Q They wanted you to bag it?
7 A Bag it, right.
8 Q Bag it, but you opposed doing that, and
9 you just wanted to put it on the ground?
10 A No, sir. No, sir. We wanted to put it in an
11 enclosed truck, I believe, and wet it down –
12 (Unidentified voices speaking on the
13 speaker phone.)
14 MS. GEISE: Please mute your phones.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Lets — lets change
16 the tape.
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
18 11:08.
19 MS. GEISE: We should finish that
20 answer.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, or just hold it
22 until he changes the tape.
23 MS. GEISE: Yes, thats fine.
24 MR. PLACITELLA: I want to know for
25 clarification, is it your position that does not

116
1 apply to CertainTEED, that letter?
2 Im talking about the Selikoff letter.
3 MR. GEISE: The Holstein letter?
4 MR. EDELL: I am reading St. Lukes
5 Hospital.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Im sorry.
7 If it is your position that this is not
8 your dump, I am not going to ask him any questions.
9 MR. EDELL: It appears from information
10 in there that it doesnt look like it is our dump.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: Then Im not going to
12 ask — I will state on the record I am not going to
13 ask him. If thats your position, Im not going to
14 ask him questions about it.
15 Okay.
16 MR. EDELL: Okay.
17 If you have information to the
18 contrary, let me know and –
19 MR. PLACITELLA: I got it off the EPA
20 site, where it talked about your dump, but it is
21 possible from what you said, it could be Nicolets
22 dump. So if that is your position, Ill put it on
23 the record, and I wont ask him any questions. I
24 dont want to be unfair.
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Were back on the

117
1 record.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: You wanted to finish
3 your statement.
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Im sorry. Could
5 you have — could you read the question back to me?
6 I apologize.
7 THE REPORTER: Thats all right.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: I mean, its not your
9 fault. We were –
10 (The requested portion was read back by
11 the reporter as follows: Question: But you
12 opposed doing that, and you just wanted to put it on
13 the ground?
14 Answer: No, sir. No, sir. We wanted
15 to put it in an enclosed truck, I believe, and wet
16 it down.)
17 Thats when the –
18 A I think the recommendation was to put it in
19 a — excuse me — in a closed container and — and
20 wet it down and take it to the dumps.
21 Q Okay. Now, you agree, do you not, that
22 overexposure to asbestos generated from CertainTEED
23 asbestos cement pipe can cause mesothelioma?
24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
25 the question.

118
1 A What do you mean by overexposure?
2 I mean, again, I said it numerous
3 times, it was our understanding that if you were
4 subjected to large amounts of asbestos, which were
5 above the permissible limits over periods of time,
6 you were — you had the possibility of getting
7 mesothelioma, yes.
8 Q Have you testified before that asbestos
9 cement pipe can cause mesothelioma?
10 A Just like I just testified to. It can cause
11 mesothelioma depending on the conditions.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
13 Id like to have this marked.
14 (Photograph marked Exhibit Ambler 41
15 for identification.)
16 Q I will show you what was marked as
17 Ambler P-41 for identification, and I ask you if you
18 recognize this.
19 A I have seen this through depositions, yes,
20 sir.
21 Q Is that a true and accurate reflect –
22 depiction or photograph of CertainTEED
23 asbestos-containing pipe?
24 A Ah, yes. It is a short — its a short length
25 of pipe, yes.

119
1 Q Okay. Under what circumstance would
2 you have a short length of pipe?
3 A Well, our standard length was 13 feet, but
4 we — a certain percentage of the order we shipped
5 out in six-sixes and three-threes for the
6 convenience of the contractor.
7 Q What does six-sixes and three-threes
8 mean?
9 A Im sorry. Six foot six inches in length and
10 three foot three inches in length, which are
11 multiples of 13 feet.
12 Q Okay. So in addition –
13 A Im sorry. I didnt mean to mislead you.
14 Q That is okay.
15 — so in addition to 13 foot lengths,
16 with every shipment you shipped some smaller pieces?
17 A Yes. A certain percentage, yes, and if a
18 guy — and at the same price.
19 Now, if the contractor wanted more of
20 them, then he, you know, would get a little bit of
21 an extra charge for it.
22 Q So somebody could testify that they
23 worked with CertainTEED pipe, and it would not
24 necessarily be 13 feet in length, true?
25 A If — if they had the short lengths,

120
1 six-foot-six or three-foot-three –
2 Q Okay.
3 A — we shipped a very small percentage.
4 Q Okay. One of the areas that you were
5 asked — designated to testify about was the sale of
6 asbestos to the Johns-Manville plant. Youre aware
7 of that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Do you know — you are grinning,
10 so if I could figure out why you are grinning, I
11 will ask you a couple of questions.
12 A Im sorry. Im learning.
13 Q That is quite all right.
14 MR. EDELL: He is grinning, too, so –
15 MR. PLACITELLA: I dont have a sour
16 puss on, do I?
17 MS. GEISE: Not right now.
18 Q So — so what is it that you know
19 about, ah, the sale of asbestos to the
20 Johns-Manville plant?
21 A I just know of — of three invoices or three
22 sales of asbestos to the — to Johns-Manville. I
23 think two were to the plant, and one was to their
24 testing lab of some sort, and the two shipments
25 were — two shipments were what, 63 and 64, and

121
1 then there was one in, I believe, 72.
2 It was just — as I understand it, sir,
3 it was just a courtesy shipment. We werent in the
4 business of selling asbestos, believe me.
5 Q I understand.
6 What is the basis of that knowledge?
7 A I — I read it on an email that was sent by
8 one of the attorneys at CertainTEED.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Did I do something wrong?
11 Q No. I dont want to know about you and
12 the lawyers.
13 Did you ever see any invoices itself?
14 A On this asbestos?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Okay. Sir, is the sole basis for your
18 test — your knowledge, the email that you just
19 talked to me about?
20 A As far as the shipment of asbestos to
21 Johns-Manville, yes.
22 Q Okay. Have you done any independent
23 investigation of the CertainTEED files to determine
24 yourself when CertainTEED shipped asbestos to
25 Johns-Manville and how much?

122
1 A No, I did not.
2 Q Did you speak to anyone –
3 A Just the lawyers –
4 Q — other than your lawyers.
5 A No –
6 Q Okay.
7 A — I wasnt going to tell you what I said.
8 Q Okay. I dont want to go there.
9 Ah, do you know whether the fiber was
10 shipped for use in the asbestos cement pipe plant at
11 Johns-Manville?
12 A I dont know what they did with the fiber,
13 sir.
14 Q Ah, is that the extent of your
15 knowledge concerning the sale of asbestos by
16 CertainTEED to Johns-Manville?
17 A Yes, it is.
18 Q And you are the guy that knows the
19 most?
20 MR. EDELL: No. He is the corporate
21 representative who is testifying on behalf of the
22 corporation on that matter.
23 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, is he the person
24 being produced with the most knowledge because
25 thats what he was asked — thats what we asked

123
1 for.
2 MR. EDELL: When you serve a deposition
3 notice to a corporation, the corporation provides a
4 witness who has knowledge concerning the subject
5 matter. He has knowledge, and the corporation is
6 bound by his testimony.
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
8 Q Do you know of anybody else that has
9 that information, other than you, about the sales of
10 asbestos fiber from CertainTeed to Johns-Manville?
11 A No, I dont, other than –
12 MR. EDELL: Other than the lawyer.
13 A — other than my representation.
14 Q Okay. Oh, I want to make sure I write
15 down, so I have it, the materials that — I know you
16 said it once before, so I apologize, the specific
17 materials that you said you reviewed in preparation
18 for the deposition.
19 A Yes. I –I went over Mr. Carners deposition
20 and his one co-worker.
21 Q Who was that?
22 A I believe it was Mr. Fenske.
23 And then I went over Mr. Gerdings
24 deposition, and I believe there were two co-workers,
25 one was Mr. Farrell, and one I cant pronounce his

124
1 name. I think it was B-a-l –
2 Q Balsalmo?
3 A Yes. B-a-l-s-a-m-o, yes.
4 Q And was that the extent of what you
5 reviewed?
6 A Other than what was said yesterday. I mean,
7 obviously I went over some things with our
8 attorneys.
9 Q Yeah, I dont want to — we will have a
10 fight about that a different day.
11 A Okay.
12 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
13 What I want to do is I am getting, at
14 least from my direct examination, close to a point
15 where I am going to be done.
16 MR. EDELL: He is going to start cross
17 soon.
18 MR. PLACITELLA: What?
19 MR. EDELL: Youre going to start cross
20 soon.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I may have a
22 whole bunch of questions, other questions. It
23 depends on what you ask.
24 MR. EDELL: I was only kidding.
25 MR. PLACITELLA: So — so what I wanted

125
1 to do was take ten minutes and look at everything,
2 and then well come back. Okay?
3 MR. EDELL: Sure.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
5 11:15 a.m.
6 (Recess taken)
7 MR. PLACITELLA: Before we go on the
8 record.
9 (Discussion held off the record.)
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at
11 11:26.
12 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
13 Q Okay. From all of the materials that
14 you have reviewed in connection with prior
15 depositions and in your work at CertainTEED and the
16 material that we have gone through in this
17 deposition in terms of CertainTEED Corporation, do
18 you believe you made any mistakes in how you
19 marketed the asbestos cement pipe to the consumer?
20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
21 the question.
22 A Mistakes? I mean, you can always look back
23 and post audit your actions.
24 As far as marketing the product, do you
25 mean merchandising and selling it?

126
1 I mean, we may have sold it to some
2 people that we could have had a better
3 representation in that area, but I think we had
4 pretty good distribution.
5 I — I cant think of any major
6 mistakes that we made.
7 As I mentioned many times yesterday and
8 today, I mean CertainTEED, in my opinion, is a
9 first-class company, and we tried very hard to do
10 the right thing.
11 Q I probably asked a bad question, so let
12 me just see if I could focus a little more.
13 Do you believe that you made any
14 mistakes in terms of informing people that worked
15 with or around your product about the potential
16 dangers associated with exposure to asbestos?
17 A The only thing I wish we had done differently
18 is I wish we had put the caution label on in 1977
19 when we had the Recommended Work Practices instead
20 of waiting until 79.
21 Q You mean on the pipe?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And would you agree with me that all
24 actions taken by CertainTEED with respect to
25 decisions made about warning consumers or workers

127
1 were deliberate actions?
2 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of
3 the question.
4 A What do you mean by deliberate? I mean –
5 Q That were consciously made.
6 A Everything that we did was consciously made,
7 yes.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Now, what number are
9 we up to?
10 THE REPORTER: 42.
11 MR. PLACITELLA: I want to mark this 43
12 and 44.
13 THE REPORTER: This should be 42. Im
14 sorry.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: All right. 42, 43,
16 44.
17 (Invoice marked Exhibit Ambler 42 for
18 identification.)
19 (Invoice, dated 12/18/70, marked
20 Exhibit Ambler 43 for identification.)
21 (Invoice marked Exhibit Ambler 44 for
22 identification.)
23 Q I put before you Exhibits Ambler 43 –
24 42, 43 and 44. Can you tell me what they are?
25 A Uh-huh. Ah, yes I can.

128
1 42 is an invoice for a shipment of
2 asbestos cement sewer pipe, and the customer was
3 Emco or Industrial Materials, and it was shipped,
4 ah, to Fitzwatertown Road in Willow Grove,
5 Pennsylvania.
6 Q All right. Is that the site of the
7 Prudential building?
8 A Yeah, it does — Im sorry. It does say that,
9 the Prudential Business College, yes.
10 Q Okay.
11 A Second is again an invoice for CertainTEEDs
12 asbestos cement sewer pipe, and it was sold to Emco
13 again, and it was shipped to, ah, R. Staffer & Son,
14 their yard on Fitzwatertown Road, and, ah, Stauffer
15 was evidently the contract for this business
16 college, so he must have had a yard right there, and
17 they shipped it to the yard.
18 And the third one, which is Ambler 44,
19 again is an invoice for sewer pipe, asbestos cement
20 sewer pipe, and the customer was Emco, and it was
21 shipped to Stauffer & Sons in Willow Grove,
22 Pennsylvania.
23 Q To Prudential again?
24 A It doesnt say, but I am assuming it was.
25 Q All right. What year was that?

129
1 A Ah, the — it looks like the date shipped was
2 March of 72, and then this one looks like it was in
3 70, and then this one looks like it was in 74.
4 Q Can you tell how much was shipped on
5 each invoice in terms of length or –
6 A I can, yes.
7 Q Can you tell me what it says?
8 A On each one?
9 Q Please.
10 A There, ah, on six-inch, there was 440 feet
11 shipped, and then there was 20 more feet shipped.
12 And then on eight-inch, there was 1560
13 feet shipped, 19 and a half feet shipped, and 19 and
14 a half feet shipped.
15 Q Okay. And what was the date for that
16 one?
17 A 3/28/72.
18 Q Okay. What is the next one? Give me
19 the amount.
20 A I cant read all of the eight-inch was shipped
21 on this one. The invoice is kind of poor.
22 There was 455 feet of five-inch
23 shipped, and like I said, I cant read the
24 eight-inch.
25 And on the last one, there was, ah,

130
1 1664 feet of eight-inch shipped, 19 and a half feet
2 of eight-inch, 19 and a half feet of eight-inch, ah,
3 a hundred — a hundred feet of six-inch, and then
4 obviously some — there were accessories on all
5 three invoices.
6 Q Are those invoices true and accurate
7 copies of CertainTEED invoices?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Now, can you
10 mark this 45?
11 (Documents Bates stamped
12 ATT-NJ-DEG0078463-0078469 marked Exhibit Ambler 45
13 for identification.)
14 Q All right. Let me show you what was
15 marked as P-Ambler 45, and I ask you if you
16 recognize that.
17 A I have not seen this copy, sir. It is
18 certainly not out of, ah — it doesnt have the
19 CertainTEED Bates stamp on it, so I have not seen
20 it, this particular copy. Obviously, I have seen
21 literature on our asbestos cement non pressure sewer
22 pipe for specifications.
23 Q Do you have any doubt that that is
24 CertainTEED literature?
25 A No, I have no doubt.

131
1 Q That was stamped that went to Brent
2 Materials?
3 A Well, obviously Brent got copies of our — of
4 our sales literature or sales specifications. Ah,
5 their name is on here. I am assuming they put their
6 own name on this and distributed it to their
7 customers.
8 Q That is not something that you would
9 do. You wouldnt stamp the customers name on it?
10 A No.
11 Q For what product is this?
12 A This is for asbestos cement sewer pipe.
13 Q In 1970?
14 A Well, evidently somebody received it in 1970.
15 Q Okay. Maybe I can help you out here,
16 if you dont mind.
17 I thought I saw another date on it.
18 A Generally its on the last page.
19 Q I could be wrong, but — there is a
20 stamped Received on it for November 4th, 1970?
21 A That is correct, yes –
22 Q Okay.
23 A — and it was — it was evidently received by
24 this Frank Brisco Company.
25 Q Correct.

132
1 This — was this typical of the
2 literature that you distributed at that time?
3 A Ah, we did distribute specifications, long
4 form and short form, and that is what this is.
5 Q Is there anything in that piece of
6 literature about the potential dangers associated
7 with exposure to asbestos?
8 A No. This is just a specification for the
9 product itself.
10 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. I have a couple
11 of things I am waiting on, but to move things along,
12 are there people here that have questions other than
13 Mr. Edell because it probably makes sense to get you
14 done first.
15 MR. DiSIPIO: No questions from me.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody have any
17 questions?
18 A VOICE: No.
19 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody on the phone?
20 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE ON THE SPEAKER
21 PHONE: No.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
23 What I am going to do then is for this
24 portion of the deposition — well, let me ask you a
25 question before we do that.

133
1 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
2 Q Was there anything in the documents
3 that I have shown you that you think I should have
4 pointed out to you that I didnt?
5 A Nothing that comes to mind.
6 Q Okay. Did in any way you think that
7 anyhow — any way I mischaracterized any of the
8 documents that I showed you?
9 A Oh, I mean, you read from the documents, and
10 if I thought that there was something that should
11 have been inserted, I tried to insert it –
12 Q Okay.
13 A — you said that delayed the –
14 Q I understand. You did what you had to
15 do?
16 A Right.
17 Q But there were no questions that I
18 asked you about the documents that you think you
19 need to clarify?
20 A Ah, not — not particularly about those
21 documents, no. I am waiting to see what Mr. Edell
22 does.
23 Q Okay. But in terms of the documents,
24 as you sit here, you dont think I mischaracterized
25 anything when I gave them to you, or when I made a

134
1 mistake, I told you, correct?
2 A Yeah, right –
3 Q Okay.
4 A — especially that one, where it said the
5 Ambler dumps. I mean, I dont know — you said it
6 was at CertainTEED, and like I tried to correct that
7 situation.
8 Q And I told you I withdrew my question
9 on that –
10 A Yes, sir. You did that.
11 Q — because it could be CertainTEED or
12 Nicolet –
13 A Nicolet, yes, sir.
14 Q — and we dont know for certain at
15 this point?
16 A We dont know at this point, yes, sir.
17 Q Okay. All right.
18 Are there any unfair questions that I
19 asked you that you want to address before I stop?
20 MR. EDELL: Oh, boy.
21 (Laughter.)
22 A Well –
23 MR. EDELL: We didnt receive the
24 transcript yet.
25 A — I dont know what your definition of

135
1 unfair is.
2 I mean, you certainly — you know, you
3 certainly have a right to ask any questions you
4 would like, and it is my right to answer them to the
5 best of my ability. And if you dont like my
6 answer, you can say nonresponsive, and we go on from
7 there. I tried to answer you.
8 Q We argued a little bit. I never said
9 nonresponsive, right?
10 A No, you didnt, but you got annoyed at me a
11 few times.
12 Q Okay. No, no. I think it came — I
13 think it started with you, but thats okay.
14 A Oh, thats what everybody says.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Okay.
16 Im going to have you ask your
17 questions, Mr. Edell, and I will reserve the right
18 to come back with follow-up depending on what you
19 ask him.
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Lets just go off
21 the record.
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you need a
23 five-minute break to reconstitute yourself?
24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
25 11:42.

136
1 (Discussion held off the record.)
2 (Recess taken.)
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We are on
4 the record at 11:47 a.m.
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Counsel has taken the
6 position in this case that I was not allowed to
7 inquire of the witness about any documents he was
8 shown in preparation for the deposition as it was a
9 work product. There have been document productions
10 served in this case or in these cases, some quite
11 old, requesting documents.
12 To the extent that the witness will be
13 shown documents that have not — that I did not use,
14 it is my position that I have a right to see that
15 document, read that document, that it should have
16 been provided to me especially since we went
17 overnight, and before any inquiry concerning that
18 document happens, I have a right to review it.
19 It is further my position that should
20 the witness be shown any document that was shown to
21 him as part of his preparatory session with Mr.
22 Edell or counsel, that all documents as part of that
23 preparatory session, the privilege would be waived
24 to as asserted. That is my position.
25 (Discussion held off the record.)

137
1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. EDELL:
3 Q Mr. Ambler, we have not gotten to
4 chat — chat substantively about anything concerning
5 this deposition since it started. Is that correct?
6 A Thats correct, yes.
7 Q I havent shown you any documents or
8 discussed what Im going to ask you at all during
9 the course of todays examination, have I?
10 A That is correct. You have not.
11 Q Okay. Now, I just wanted to clear up a
12 couple of things.
13 There was some discussion early on in
14 your examination by Mr. Placitella concerning vent
15 duct pipe and air duct pipe. Is there a difference
16 between the two?
17 A Well, there are all kinds of vent pipes.
18 There is a vent pipe for water heaters. There is a
19 plumbing vent pipe. There is a vent pipe for,
20 ah, — well, thats primarily it. A — a — either
21 water heaters or something like that, or a plumbing
22 vent pipe, and then there is an air duct pipe, and
23 the air duct pipe, as I testified to yesterday, is
24 as far as CertainTEED is concerned, was pipe that
25 transmits warm air in various facilities –

138
1 Q Okay.
2 A — underneath the ground.
3 Q Of all of the different duct pipe that
4 you just described, what type of duct pipe, if any,
5 was manufactured by CertainTEED?
6 A In — in asbestos cement, the only vent pipe
7 or duct pipe that we manufactured was the air vent
8 pipe.
9 Q Okay. Now, there was a discussion
10 concerning — let me see –
11 MR. EDELL: I am missing part of this
12 thing here.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay.
14 MR. EDELL: Great.
15 Q And let me just show you — I –
16 MR. EDELL: First of all, we will mark
17 this as Ambler 46.
18 (Johns-Manville brochure marked Exhibit
19 Ambler 46 for identification.)
20 Why dont you show that to Mr.
21 Placitella?
22 Give Chris one.
23 (Counsel confer.)
24 MR. EDELL: I wanted to make sure I
25 gave you the same one. Is that the same one?

139
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
2 MR. EDELL: Just tell me when you are
3 finished, Chris, and –
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.
5 Can I ask you whether this is a
6 document you showed him in preparation for the
7 deposition?
8 MR. EDELL: If you would like to ask
9 him that question, you certainly can do it.
10 MR. PLACITELLA: I will take your
11 representation, and then I wont have to do it.
12 MR. EDELL: Well, you can ask him.
13 MR. PLACITELLA: Want me to do it now?
14 MR. EDELL: No, no, no.
15 Are you finished reviewing the
16 document?
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
18 MR. EDELL: Okay.
19 BY MR. EDELL:
20 Q The — the document that we — what is
21 it marked as Ambler –
22 A 46.
23 Q — 46, is that the type of air vent
24 duct system that you were describing previously?
25 A Yes, sir.

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1 Q Although it is not meant — this is not
2 a brochure by CertainTEED, it is one by
3 Johns-Manville, correct?
4 A That is correct, yes, sir.
5 Q But this is the air vent duct system,
6 if you will, that was the only vent duct system or
7 type of system that was manufactured by CertainTEED,
8 correct?
9 A Thats correct, yes, sir.
10 Q Okay. Now, there were discussions
11 yesterday about certain members of Turner & Newell
12 being members of the Board of Directors of
13 CertainTEED?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Do you remember those questions?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And do you recall Mr. Placitella asking
18 you — asking you whether the information that the
19 members of — those members of the Board of
20 CertainTEED who had or were also from employees of
21 Turner & Newell, brought with them the knowledge
22 that they had from their employment with Turner &
23 Newell, do you remember that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Do you have any idea what — of what

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1 knowledge they brought with them?
2 A No, I do not.
3 Q Do you have any knowledge as to who
4 they were?
5 A I just knew that the two gentlemen that were
6 mentioned yesterday, I had never met them.
7 Obviously Mr. Bateman and I forget who the other
8 gentleman was, I never met them.
9 Q Do you know what information they
10 related to CertainTEED?
11 A No, I do not.
12 Q Okay. There was also a discussion
13 yesterday about a friend of yours, Mr. McGinley.
14 Is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Who unfortunately died of mesothelioma?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Mr. McGinley was employed in the
19 asbestos industry before he was employed by
20 CertainTEED, correct?
21 A Thats correct, yes, sir.
22 Q And by whom was he employed?
23 A Ah, Nicolet.
24 Q And do you know what conditions he
25 worked in while employed at Nicolet?

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1 A I dont know what all plants he worked in, but
2 he worked in the asbestos or the asbestos cement
3 plants, yes.
4 Q Do you know what the — what the
5 facilities were like where — where he worked?
6 A Ah, no. I just know that with the assets that
7 we bought, the asbestos cement pipe assets when we
8 got them, we went to enhance the dust collection
9 system, but, you know, what the conditions of the
10 various plants were, I dont know.
11 Q So you — you do not know what he was
12 exposed to in terms of amounts of asbestos fiber, is
13 that correct?
14 A Yes, I do not know. Thats correct.
15 Q Okay. Now, you said that once you took
16 over the assets of –
17 A Keasby & Mattison, yes.
18 Q — Keasby & Mattison, ah, you tried to
19 enhance the ventilation system.
20 Would you tell the jury what you mean
21 by ventilation system?
22 A Well, it was brought out yesterday that we had
23 a ventilation system and dust hoods, which obviously
24 a dust hood is where the asbestos was taken up into
25 the ventilation system and taken to bag houses. And

143
1 these dust hoods and ventilation systems were
2 installed in the plants at various locations where
3 the possibility of asbestos fiber being released was
4 there.
5 I mean, if there was an area where
6 there was a possible rele — you know, from the
7 normal operations, where there would be a possible
8 release of asbestos, we had a — we had a dust
9 collection and hood ventilation system set up, you
10 know.
11 Q And how would — who designed these
12 systems?
13 A Well, ah, we designed quite a bit of them
14 ourselves. Ah, I wasnt too much involved in that,
15 but there were, ah, there were standard — standard
16 companies that made the actual — the big systems.
17 And the actual vent — dust vent that took it from
18 the one location to the bag houses, we — we spent a
19 lot of time designing those to be sure they were
20 getting the right suction out of the various
21 operations.
22 Q And what was the purpose of the
23 ventilation systems?
24 A To ensure that you would have a safe operation
25 in the plant because as I tried to mention

144
1 yesterday, we machined every piece of pipe that we
2 made, asbestos cement. We actually machined it in
3 the plant.
4 Q What do you mean by you machined it?
5 A Excuse me.
6 Ah, the piece of pipe comes off the
7 machine 13 feet long, and it is a rough barrel,
8 13 — the outside diameter is rough, and for some
9 distance on either end, we would take a lathe, and
10 wed actually machine those ends for about six
11 inches. And the reason we did that is because that
12 end was inserted into a coupling. And then in the
13 coupling there were gaskets, rubber gaskets, and
14 the — the pipe then sealed on those gaskets for,
15 ah — to contain the water or to contain the sewage,
16 so the pipe was machined, like I say, on either end
17 for about six inches, and they were done on
18 horizontal lathes.
19 And then the coupling itself, there was
20 two gaskets in each coupling, and it went into a
21 ring groove, so the coupling had to be machined out
22 on the I.D., totally on the I.D., internal diameter,
23 and then the ring groups had to be machined in
24 there, and this was done on a vertical boring mill.
25 You put the coupling there, and youd pull the

145
1 lever, and the boring mill would come down and cut
2 the inside of the coupling.
3 Q So I mean was this — was this — was
4 this — did this have to be done with — with a
5 certain amount of precision?
6 A Oh, yeah. I mean the tolerances were pretty
7 tight because, ah, you wanted to be sure that it
8 sealed, but you wanted to be sure it wasnt overly
9 hard to install the pipe in the field, so you had to
10 be certain that you were pretty right there as far
11 as the dimensions you were machining the pipe to or
12 what you were machining the coupling to.
13 Q There has been some discussion
14 concerning people cutting pipe in the field.
15 Do you recall some — do you recall
16 that?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And the different methods that were
19 employed and different recommendations concerning
20 how those — those cuts should be made.
21 Ah, was there any effort made by, ah,
22 CertainTEED to eliminate or reduce as much as
23 possible the number of cuts that had to be made in
24 the field?
25 A Oh, yes, because we — we shipped short

146
1 pieces, and we, you know — well, we even shipped
2 pieces that were 19 and a half inches long or
3 three-foot-three inches or six-foot-six inches, and
4 that was so you could make tie-ins to valve fittings
5 or hydrants or even to manholes for — for sewer
6 pipe.
7 Q Were they machined also?
8 A Ah, the ends were machined, yes.
9 Q Right.
10 A Now, we also shipped what we would call an
11 F.M., which was a fully machined piece, which was –
12 and it was over the full length of the pipe, and
13 they were either three-foot-three long or six foot
14 six inches long.
15 And if need be, all they had to do was
16 if you had to cut something, you could cut that, and
17 then you would just take that file and then take the
18 nose off the end of it, so you could install that
19 into a coupling, and that would eliminate the need
20 to actually do machining in the field.
21 If you cut the rough barrel of the
22 pipe, you certainly have to machine it back in the
23 field, and we went over the Recommended Work
24 Practices yesterday, and there was a manual lathe
25 and an electric lathe, and so you had to use those

147
1 lathes to machine it back in the field, the end of
2 the pipe back to a certain defined dimension, so you
3 could install it into the coupling.
4 Q So as far as a — a– a contractor who
5 was installing –
6 A Oh, excuse me. Im sorry, Mr. Edell. I
7 didnt –
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Stop interrupting the
9 witness.
10 A — I didnt quite –
11 THE WITNESS: Does that mean he is on
12 my side?
13 MR. EDELL: He is routing for you now.
14 THE WITNESS: Oh, how things change.
15 (Laughter.)
16 A We also shipped tapped couplings, and the
17 reason for that is that, you know, you saw in the
18 Recommended Work Practices where –
19 Q Were talking about Ambler 20 for
20 identification?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Okay. Why dont you tell us what page
23 you are referring to.
24 A It shows on — well, lets go to page — on
25 page 16, it shows tapping pressure pipe. And what

148
1 that is is, ah, the — the main line pipe would be
2 asbestos cement, if you are putting asbestos cement
3 in the main line down the road, ah, you know, down
4 the roadway –
5 Q Uh-huh.
6 A — and then if you come to a residential home,
7 you obviously have to get the water from the main
8 line to the home. And generally that was with
9 either small diameter copper or some small diameter
10 plastic, not necessarily PVC. A lot of it was
11 polyethylene and other types of plastic.
12 But to get it from the asbestos cement
13 pipe to the home, you obviously had to have a — a
14 tap there, and this shows on page 16 that you can do
15 tapping in the field –
16 Q Right.
17 A — but we also manufactured a tapped coupling,
18 that if you laid your project out right, ah, you
19 could use this tapped co