SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. W-044052-88
CARL H. TROMSDORFF,
VIDEOTAPED
Plaintiff DEPOSITION UNDER
ORAL EXAMINATION
vs OF
CARL H. TROMSDORFF
ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, et als.,
Defendants
______________________________
BRODY & GEISER
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
77 Hamilton Avenue
Fords, New Jersey 08863
(201) 738-8555
JOB #809233
TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness,
called for Oral Examination in the above-captioned
matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to
Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by
and before MARC BRODY, a Notary Public and Certified
Shorthand Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the
Offices of WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, ESQS.,
900 Route 9, Woodbridge, New Jersey, on Friday,
September 23, 1988, commencing at approximately 10:00
in the forenoon.
A P P E A R A N C E S:
WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, ESQS.
BY: CHRISTOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
McCARTER & ENGLISH, ESQS.
BY: GAY LYNN TONELLI, ESQ.
Attorneys for Asbestos Claims Facility Defendants
HARWOOD LLOYD, ESQS.
BY: THOMAS A. KEENAN, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant Owens-Corning Fiberglas
ODONNELL, KENNEDY, VESPOLE & PIECHTA, ESQS.
BY: JOSEPH REARDON, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant U.S. Mineral
WATERS, McPHERSON, McNEILL & FITZPATRICK, ESQS.
BY: DAVID A. McPHERSON, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant Anchor Packing
HARVEY, PENNINGTON, HERTING & RENNEISEN, ESQS.
BY: KEVIN F. COX, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant M.H. Detrick
A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T D
GOLDEN, ROTHSCHILD, SPAGNOLA & DI FAZIO, ESQS.
BY: CHARLES D. BODNER, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant Eagle-Picher Industries, Inc.
CHASAN, LEYNER, TARRANT & DITALIA, ESQS.
BY: JOHN P. CASCIO, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant Robert A. Keasbey Company
BUDD, LARNER, GROSS, PICILLO, ROSENBAUM, GREENBERG &
SADE, ESQS.
BY: MINDA E. MAISEL, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant Combustion Engineering
ENRIGHT, LENNEY & McGRATH, ESQS.
BY: MICHAEL P. McGRATH, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant State Insulation Corporation
I N D E X
WITNESS NAME PAGE NO.
CARL. H. TROMSDORFF
Direct by Mr. Placitella 8
Cross by Ms. Tonelli 36
Cross by Mr. McGrath 50
Cross by Mr. Keenan 54
Redirect by Mr. Placitella 59
Recross by Ms. Tonelli 63
MR. PLACITELLA: In the deposition before
today I noticed, and Im sure it was a matter of
how it was heard, that with respect to Smith
Insulating Company of New York, the product
Thermasil is mentioned throughout as a product
that Mr. Tromsdorff used there. I believe that
he said Therminsul, T-h-e-r-m-i-n-s-u-l, and I
spoke to him this morning and he confirmed that
is in fact what the product was, not Thermasil.
And my understanding is they are two different
products, and if anyone doesnt have an
objection I would like to have the transcript
amended to reflect that before we start. Any
problem with that?
MS. TONELLI: What page?
MR. PLACITELLA: 51 and 53 is where I
have — it is understandable mistake
only because Thermasil is a product that comes
up time and time again in these cases, but they
are two separate products. I dont believe he
said anything about Thermasil at that time.
Secondly, just so the record is
clear, with the exception of Owens-Corning and
Eagle-Picher, am I correct you are here on
behalf of everyone else who used to be in
Wellington who was served in this case?
MS. TONELLI: What we will do, after the
deposition is over Ill go through a list of the
people Im here on behalf of. If we can do that
after the deposition or at a break, that will be
fine, we can compare it to the caption and list
everyone that Im here on behalf of.
MR. PLACITELLA: Im not trying to be
difficult but I want — at some point in time
eight months from now when things change again,
I dont want to have a problem with who was
represented here.
MS. TONELLI: Ill make it clear exactly
who we are representing at that time.
C A R L H. T R O M S D O R F F,
Rd. 1, Box 480, Bricktown, New Jersey,
called as a witness, having been
previously sworn according to law,
testifies as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:
Q Good morning, Carl, how are you?
A Good.
Q As you know, we are here today for the
purpose of taking your deposition. This deposition is
going to be taken on video tape in the event that when
this case comes up for trial you dont feel up to
testifying, a jury can see that. Do you understand
that?
A Yes.
Q So I ask that while you are testifying
here in this office, you keep in mind that the jury
will see this. Do you understand that?
A Yes.
Q Carl, how old are you?
A 71.
Q Where do you live?
A Bricktown, New Jersey.
Q How long have you lived in Bricktown?
A 43 years.
Q Have you always been a resident of New
Jersey?
A Yes.
Q Are you currently married?
A Yes.
Q What is your wifes name?
A Ivy.
Q How long have you been married?
A 47 years.
Q Do you have any children?
A Two.
Q Do you have any grandchildren?
A Six.
Q Do you get to see your grandchildren
often?
A Very often.
Q Can you tell the jury how far you went in
school?
A I completed two years of high school.
Q Then did you start full-time employment?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the jury, how is your
health today?
A Not too good.
Q What do you mean by that?
A Well, I have a lung disease.
Q Do you know what that lung disease is
called?
A Mesothelioma.
Q Mesothelioma?
A Thats it.
Q When did you find out you had
mesothelioma?
A In February.
Q What is your understanding of what
mesothelioma is?
A It is a sickness that is caused by asbestos.
Q Are you aware of what the prognosis is for
that?
A You very often will die from it.
Q As you sit here today or generally
speaking, how are you feeling?
A Well, you get tired very easily and short of
breath. You have a little discomfort — I have a
little discomfort in the chest and back.
Q Are there any circumstances under which
you feel this tired or shortness of breath more?
A Well, as the disease progresses, you get short
of breath quicker and tired quicker.
Q Have you felt these symptoms progress over
the course of time?
A Yes. It gets worse as time goes by.
Q Can you recall in your best estimation
when you first started feeling short of breath and
tired?
A When, got to be about a year and a half ago.
Around that time.
Q How do you feel today compared with when
you first started feeling that way about a year and a
half ago?
A Well, as time goes by, you feel a little worse.
Q Has your weight changed at all over the
course of the last year?
A I lost 15 pounds.
Q Have you been able to put that weight back
on?
A No.
Q Since you found out you had mesothelioma,
have you received any medical treatment?
A I took chemotherapy a while and I stopped it. I
didnt see where it was doing any good.
Q How many treatments did you have?
A Two.
Q When you had those treatments, what was
done to you?
A They inject into your vein fluid for about two
days.
Q Where was the treatment done?
A In Jupiter, Florida.
Q How were you in Jupiter, Florida?
A I live there six months.
Q Out of the year?
A Yes.
Q You have a retirement home there?
A Yes.
Q You said you had two chemotherapy
treatments?
A Yes.
Q Why did you stop the chemotherapy?
A Well, I didnt feel they were doing me any good
and I dont like hospitals that much.
Q Had you ever had any surgical procedures
before upon you?
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A Gall bladder operation.
Q With respect to this disease,
mesothelioma.
A No.
Q Do you recall ever having your lung
tapped?
A Yes.
Q Where was that done?
A In Jupiter.
Q Can you tell the jury what was done when
you had your lung tapped?
A You sat in a chair, a man gave you some sort of
anesthetic and they go with a needle and draw fluid.
Q Prior to developing the mesothelioma, were
you ever told you had any other type of cancer?
A Yes.
Q What type of cancer was that?
A Multiple myeloma.
Q When were you told you had multiple
myeloma?
A Must be about three years ago.
Q Were you treated for that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know, was the treatment successful?
A Yes, it was arrested.
Q Were your activities curtailed in any way
when you came down with the multiple myeloma?
A They were at first, yes.
Q After the cancer was arrested, what
happened with your daily activities?
A They were pretty near normal.
Q When you came down with the cancer, the
mesothelioma, did that change your daily activities in
any way?
A Yes.
Q How so?
A Well, I couldnt do many of the things that I
used to do.
Q Can you tell the jury how you now spend a
typical day?
A Well, I get up, eat breakfast, watch television
until twelve, watch the news and just take it kind of
easy.
Q Prior to getting sick with the
mesothelioma, were you more active than that?
A Oh, yes, I have a 23 foot boat and it hasnt
been in the water, and I used to have an acre garden
which is down to six tomato plants.
Q After you left school, what was your first
full-time job?
A I worked for the Insulating Company of New York.
Q Do you know approximately when you started
working there?
A Around 1935.
Q For approximately how long did you work
for the Insulating Company of New York?
A Approximately 39.
Q Approximately four years?
A On and off.
Q What was your job there?
A I was an insulator.
Q So the jury understands, what does an
insulator do?
A An insulator insulates hot and cold pipe and
boilers and breechings and et cetera.
Q What would you insulate with? What kinds
of products?
A The covering products, Manville, Aircell,
Baldwin-Hills 66, Therminsul, pipe covering and block.
Q Let me ask you some questions about those
products. Were there different types of insulating
products? I think you mentioned pipe covering and
block.
A Right.
Q They are two different types of products,
correct?
A Well, they are applied differently. The block
is applied to boilers and breechings and machinery
where the covering is applied to pipe.
Q In addition to pipe covering and block,
did you use any other types of insulating products?
A Yes. You used cements.
Q While you were at Smith Insulating Company
of New York, do you believe you were exposed to
asbestos?
A Oh, I had to be.
Q Why do you say that?
A Because you worked with it. It was with you
during the working day.
Q Were the products you just described the
asbestos products you used?
A Yes.
Q You said cement. Do you know the
manufacturer or brand name of any of the cement you
used there?
A 7M and Vermont.
Q How did you know the product was 7M, for
instance?
A It was on the bag.
Q What was 7M cement? Can you tell the
jury?
A It is a powder. You mix it with water until it
is of the right consistency to apply.
Q What do you apply it to?
A Well, fittings. The fittings on the lines.
Q What is fitting?
A An elbow, a T, a bend or et cetera.
Q How did the 7M product come packaged?
A In them days in 100 pound burlap bags.
Q You also mentioned the product Vermont
cement. How did that come packaged?
A In them days the same way. 100 pound bags.
Q Did you use it basically for the same
thing as the 7M?
A Yes, same thing, and for finish coat and
covering finishing coats on boilers, breechings, et
cetera.
Q What is a finish coat and a rough coat?
A The first coat you put on will dry probably –
it will shrink. The second coat you put on is a finish
coat and that does not shrink.
Q You also mentioned a product called
Therminsul. What is Therminsul?
A It came in a block form. It was used on
boilers, breechings and machinery. The block, if I
remember correctly, was about 18 inches by 6 inches by
whatever thickness the architect wanted.
Q How did that block come packaged?
A In a cardboard boxes.
Q How did you know the product was
Therminsul?
A It had a name on it.
Q On what?
A On the box.
Q You also mentioned Manville pipe covering,
correct?
A Right.
Q Did you use that at Smith?
A Yes.
Q How did that come packaged?
A In a cardboard box.
Q What was the Manville pipe covering used
for?
A It was applied to the pipe or if you were using
the block, it would be applied to boilers, breechings,
et cetera.
Q Now, after you left the Insulating Company
of New York in 1939, what was your next job?
A We went to work for P.S. Thorson & Company.
Q What was your job there?
A Insulator.
Q Where were you working for P.S. Thorson &
Company?
A Primarily in Port Newark and Kearny, New Jersey,
Federal Shipyard.
Q It was a shipyard?
A Yes.
Q Did you work in both of those areas?
A Yes.
Q Do you believe you were exposed to
asbestos in those jobs?
A Yes.
Q What types of asbestos products do you
believe you worked with when you were at Federal
Shipyard for P.S. Thorson?
A Well, Manville –
Q Im asking you types first.
A Types?
Q Types of products.
A Pipe covering and blocking material.
Q In addition to the pipe covering and
blocking material, did you use any other types of
asbestos products?
A You mean cements?
Q Did you use cements there?
A Yes.
Q Did you use basically the same products in
both Port Newark and the Kearny shipyard?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell the jury the manufacturer or
brand name of any of the pipe covering that you used
while you were at the Federal Shipyard for P.S.
Thorson?
A Well, it was Johns-Manville products, there was
Unibestos, there was amosite, cements.
Q Are you able to tell the jury the
manufacturer or brand name of any of the cements you
used while you were at the Federal Shipyard?
A Eagle-Picher, 7M and Vermont.
Q The same 7M and Vermont you described
before?
A Yes.
Q Were your duties any different when you
worked at Federal Shipyard as a pipe coverer than when
you were with Smith or was it basically the same type
of job?
A Well, shipyard work is much harder.
Q What do you mean by that?
A Well, they cram everything into a ship, right.
It is tighter and harder to do your work.
Q In terms of the physical job you did, is
that any different?
A No.
Q After you left the Federal Shipyard, what
was your next job? That was around 1946, correct?
A Yes.
Q What was the next job you had?
A I worked as a laborer for a company called L.H.
Leechard.
Q For approximately how long?
A Maybe two years.
Q Do you believe you were ever exposed to
asbestos on that job?
A No.
Q After you left Leechard, where did you
work?
A I went to work as a commercial fisherman.
Q Where was that?
A Point Pleasant.
Q Do you believe you were ever exposed to
asbestos on that job?
A No.
Q Do you know approximately when you left
the fishing industry?
A In the early 1950s.
Q Do you recall in your last deposition
saying it was approximately 1952?
A That would be –
Q Does that sound correct?
A Yes.
Q After you left the Seashore Fish Company
at Point Pleasant in 1952, what was your next job?
A I went to work for Schaedel & Beyer.
Q What is Schaedel & Beyer?
A An insulating company.
Q What did you work as at Schaedel & Beyer?
A An insulator.
Q Did you do basically the same type of job
as you did when you were at Federal Shipyard and the
Insulating Company of New York?
A Pretty much, yes.
Q Approximately how long were you at
Schaedel & Beyer?
A Three years approximately.
Q Do you believe when you worked at Schaedel
& Beyer that you were exposed to asbestos?
A Yes.
Q Why do you believe that?
A Thats what I worked with.
Q Can you tell the jury the types of
asbestos products you worked with at Schaedel & Beyer?
A Well, Johns-Manville products.
Q You are giving us manfuacturers. Right
now Im asking you about the types of products you
used.
A Pipe covering sections, right, and blocks and
cements.
Q As you sit here, can you recall the
manufacturer or brand name of any of the pipe covering
you used while you were with Schaedel & Beyer?
A Manville, Calsilite, Kaylo, Carey, and
cements –
Q You just said Manville?
A Manville.
Q Carey, Kaylo pipe coverings?
A Yes.
Q Can you think of any other manfuacturers?
A Calsilite.
Q You said you worked with Calsilite. What
was Calsilite? What did it look like?
A Well, it looked like mag pipe covering but it is
lighter in density, in weight. In weight but not in
density. It is just as thick.
Q What color was it?
A An off white, whitish.
Q How did it come packaged?
A In cardboard boxes.
Q How did you know the product was
Calsilite?
A It said so on the box.
Q You also mentioned a product, Kaylo pipe
covering. What was Kaylo pipe covering?
A It was similar to Calsilite. It came in a
cardboard box, 3 foot lengths by whatever size pipe it
was going on.
Q How did you know the product was Kaylo?
A It said so on the box.
Q You also mentioned a product Carey. What
was Carey?
A It was an insulating pipe covering.
Q How did that come packaged?
A Same way. Cardboard box, 3 foot high by
whatever.
Q What color was that?
A An off white, tannish maybe.
Q How did you know the product was Carey?
A It said so on the box.
Q You also mentioned JM pipe covering. Is
that the same pipe covering you mentioned before?
A Yes.
Q When you had to apply the pipe coverings,
did you apply them all basically the same way?
A Depended on what the finish was going to be.
Some finishes the pipe covering was just pasted and
applied and a lap thrown over. Some was wired on,
rosin sized paper put over the top of that and canvas
sewed.
Q Would you have to do anything to the pipe
coverings before you applied it, before you actually
put it on the pipe?
MS. TONELLI: Objection.
A Just open it.
MS. TONELLI: Leading.
Q Describe for me the procedure for putting
on pipe covering. You would take it out of the box and
then what would happen?
A You would open it, put — if it was going to be
pasted, you paste the canvas, put it on the pipe, fold
the canvas over.
Q Did the pipe covering always fit
perfectly?
A No.
Q In terms of size of the sections?
A The size of the sections, they are all 3 feet
long. Of course, there could be pieces put on this
big, right, an inch, 2 inches, 6 inches. Depending.
If it was between a fitting or whatever.
Q When you put on the 2 inch or the 6 inch
piece, where would you get that from?
A You saw it, you cut it with a saw.
Q What would the conditions be like when you
sawed that product?
A Dusty with all pipe coverings.
Q All pipe coverings are dusty? Is that
what you are saying?
A Yes.
Q You would cut it with what kind of saw?
A Well, carpenters saw.
Q Would you breathe in the dust?
MS. TONELLI: Objection.
MR. PLACITELLA: Basis?
MS. TONELLI: Leading.
A Yes.
Q How often would you have to cut that pipe
covering?
A Depending. If you were working around machinery
where the pipe went all different kinds of ways into
that machinery, you might have to make a dozen cuts.
On straight pipe you wouldnt have to cut it, only
where the hangers were on the pipe.
Q You said you also used block when you were
at Schaedel & Beyer. Do you know who the manufacturer
was of that block?
A Manville was one. It is hard to say.
Q You also told the jury that while you were
at Schaedel & Beyer you used cements. Do you know the
manufacturer or brand name of the cements?
A Well, 7M and Vermont.
Q How do you know, for instance, it was
Vermont cement?
A It said so on the bag. But now, cement came in
a 50 pound paper bag, it didnt come in 100 pound
burlap bags no more.
Q By the time you were with Schaedel & Beyer
the packaging had changed?
A On cement.
Q Could you tell the difference between the
7M and the Vermont cement?
A I could.
Q How could you tell?
A You mean in working with it?
Q Yes.
A Vermont had a little bluish color to it. I
think it was a better cement.
Q Can you tell the jury the procedure that
you would go through in order to apply the cement, what
you would do with it?
A You would have some kind of a mixing trough or
or barrel. You would put some water in it, you would
pick up the bag, cut it off or rip it off, dump it into
the water and mix it up.
Q What were the conditions like when you
dumped that bag and opened it up?
A Dusty.
Q Did you breathe in that dust?
A Yes.
Q After you left Schaedel & Beyer in
approximately 1955, what was the next job you went to?
A I went to Toms River Chemical in Toms River.
Q How long did you stay there at Toms River?
A 24 years and nine months.
Q When you first went to Toms River Chemical
in 1955, what job did you have?
A I was hired as an insulator.
Q How long did you work as an insulator?
A Approximately twelve years.
Q When you say you were hired and worked as
an insulator, what did that job entail?
A Well, chemical — well, in a chemical plant just
about all pipe were covered and kettles, mixing
kettles, they are covered also.
Q Did you do new construction work or repair
work on them?
A Mostly repair work, but I have done new work,
too.
Q Now, Toms River Chemical, did it have two
different names?
A It had about four, I think Ciba-Geigy is the
official name of it right now.
Q I think you said that you described more
than one building. Was there more than one building
when you went there?
A There was maybe about a dozen or more.
Q Did you work in all of the buildings?
A I think I worked in every building.
Q Did you do the same type of work in every
building?
A Yes.
Q While you were at Toms River Chemical
working as an insulator, do you believe you were
exposed to asbestos?
A Yes.
Q Why do you believe that?
A I worked with it.
Q Can you tell the jury the types of
asbestos products you used when you were at Toms River
Chemical?
A Well, there was Manville –
Q When I say types –
A Pipe covering, blocks, cement.
Q Could you tell the jury the manufacturer
or brand name of the pipe covering you used?
A Manville, Kaylo, Carey, Calsilite, and foam
glass. I dont know who makes that.
Q You previously described Calsilite, Kaylo,
Carey and Manville, correct?
A Yes.
Q Is the description you gave before for how
it looked and how it was packaged the same when you
worked at Toms River Chemical?
A Yes.
Q Did you basically apply it the same way?
A Yes.
Q Were the same conditions created when you
cut the product there?
A Yes.
Q You also indicated you worked with block
while you were at Toms River Chemical.
A Yes.
Q Do you know the manufacturer or brand name
of any of the block you used?
A Well, there was Manville, monoblock, thats
about the block.
Q You described Manville block before,
correct?
A Yes.
Q Is that the same block you described in
your previous employment?
A Yes, it comes in different thicknesses.
Q What is monoblock?
A It is a brown block. I dont know what it is
made from. I would say there was glass in it or some
thing like a glass in it and it was a very good block
for heat. We used it where there was real high heat.
Q Did you use that monoblock the entire time
you worked at Toms River Chemical as an insulator?
A Yes.
Q How did you know the product was
monoblock?
A It was written on the case, on the boxes.
Q Do you know who manufactured that?
A Baldwin-Hill.
Q How would you apply the monoblock? What
would you do?
A If it was a flat surface you were putting it on,
you would put it on and get your wires ready, wire it
on, cement it, two coats of cement, whatever.
Q Would that product ever have to be cut by
you?
A Yes.
Q What would you cut it with?
A A saw or a knife you could even cut it
Q What were the conditions like when you cut
the monoblock?
A A little dusty.
Q You also indicated that you used cement.
A Right.
Q Do you know the manufacturer or brand name
of the cement you used while you were at Toms River
Chemical?
A Eagle 66, 7M and Vermont.
Q Was it, were they the same products you
described before?
A Yes.
Q Did you basically apply them the same way?
A Yes.
Q During the time you were at Toms River
Chemical, can you recall any outside suppliers coming
into the plant, and if you do, can you tell us the
names of those suppliers?
A In the 50s, Charles Wood was the supplier
there. Later they got supplies from someplace else in
Pennsylvania, someplace in Pennsylvania, and State
Insulation also towards the end or the end of the time
I was there State Insulation was supplying materials.
Q When you say the end of the time you were
there, do you mean the end of the time you were an
insulator there?
A Yes.
Q In approximately 1967 you went to work at
a different job. Is that correct?
A I was a maintenance foreman.
Q What were your duties as a maintenance
foreman?
A Well, in maintenance theres many trades. I had
charge at times of the pipefitters and maybe
electricians. I also had the yard laborers at one
time. Depending where they needed you.
Q When you were a maintenance supervisor,
you had that job until approximately 1979?
A Yes.
Q Did you work in all the buildings as a
maintenance supervisor?
A Yes.
Q Do you believe — when you worked as a
maintenance supervisor, did you actually handle
asbestos products anymore?
A No.
Q Do you believe you were exposed to
asbestos in any way when you were a maintenance
supervisor?
A Yes, I had to go through the buildings and there
would be insulators working.
Q Would you work in their vicinity?
A Not work. See how a job is running, see how it
is progressing, if –
Q During the time you worked at Toms River
Chemical and Ciba-Geigy, did you ever see any outside
contractors insulating contractors?
A Many times.
Q Did you ever work there, did they ever
work in your vicinity?
A Yes, when I was working as an insulator.
Q Do you know the union local out of which
those insulators came?
A In the beginning it was Local 32 in the early
years. Later it was the local from Trenton.
Q You left Toms River Chemical in
approximately 1979?
A Yes.
Q You retired then?
A Yes.
Q Prior to leaving Toms River Chemical and
while you were working there, at any time did you ever
see any warnings on any of the asbestos products that
you worked with indicating that you could develop
mesothelioma, for instance?
A Not while I was working there, no.
Q Did you ever see any warnings indicating
that the asbestos products you were working with were
dangerous?
A Not while I was working there, no.
Q Did you ever see any warnings indicating
that the asbestos products that you were working with
were capable of killing you?
A No.
Q During the time you worked at Toms River
Chemical, were you ever given a mask or respirator?
A No.
Q Were you ever told to wear a mask or
respirator?
A No.
Q Had you been told that the products you
were working with were dangerous, what would you have
done?
MS. TONELLI: Objection.
MR. PLACITELLA: Basis?
MS. TONELLI: Calls for speculation.
Q You can answer it, Carl.
A I would have bid into a different job there.
Q Carl, after you left Toms River Chemical
in 1979, what were your plans for retirement?
A I dont think I had, I had too much plans
outside of staying six months up in Jersey and staying
six months in Florida.
Q Since you found out you got sick, has the
way you approach life changed at all?
A Well, In a way because now you try to — well,
in a way it has because you dont do the things you
used to do.
Q When you found out about the cancer, did
that affect you at all mentally?
A Well, it didnt make me feel good. It affects
you mentally, yes.
Q Do you believe you are going to beat this
thing?
A I hope so. Oh, I hope so.
Q I dont have any other questions.
MR. PLACITELLA: Off the record.
(Discussion off record.)
MR. PLACITELLA: Video operator, we are
back on the record.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TONELLI:
Q Good morning, Mr. Tromsdorff, I have just
a few questions for you today.
Do you remember we took your deposition
back here on September 8th of this year. Thats
correct, right?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Tromsdorff, did you ever smoke?
A Yes.
Q You smoked cigarettes at one time, didnt
you?
A Many years ago.
Q You started smoking when you were about 17
or 18 years old. Is that correct?
A That would be about right.
Q You smoked until about 25 years ago. Is
that correct?
A About, thats right.
Q How much did you smoke when you smoked
cigarettes?
A A pack a day.
Q After you stopped smoking cigarettes, you
continued to smoke other –
A I smoked a pipe and cigars, but I never inhaled
them. You just puff on them.
Q How long did you smoke pipes and cigars?
A I had to end it about twenty years ago. I
stopped then.
Q You told us a little bit earlier today
that you currently are short of breath and you tire
easily. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You said that started about a year and a
half ago. Is that correct?
A Yes. It might have been longer.
Q You were told you had mesothelioma when?
When were you told you had mesothelioma?
A Could have been January of 1988.
Q 1988?
A Yes.
Q That would have been about nine months
ago?
A Right.
Q So you started feeling short of breath
would you say around the beginning of 1987. Is that
about right?
A Approximately.
Q You told us a little earlier about the
mesothelioma had had an effect on your life. Is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q You said that you have a boat?
A Yes.
Q But you dont take the boat out anymore?
A No.
Q Do you remember telling us in your
discovery deposition on September 8th that you havent
had the boat out in two years?
A That is right but theres another reason for it.
Another reason is that the price of the docks are so
expensive that I just couldnt see it.
Q Cost was just too much?
A Plus my poor health, right.
Q Do you remember telling us in your
discovery deposition that you were told you had the
multiple myeloma in 1985 and at that time you underwent
chemotherapy for it?
A That is right.
Q Do you also remember telling us in your
discovery deposition that your activities were
seriously curtailed from the multiple myeloma?
A At the beginning.
Q You told us at that time that you didnt
have any pep and that you used to have a big garden and
after the multiple myeloma you didnt have a big
garden?
MR. PLACITELLA: Are you referring to a
specific portion of the transcript?
MS. TONELLI: Yes.
MR. PLACITELLA: Can you tell me what that
is?
MS. TONELLI: Page 144, starting with
line 12.
Q Starting with line 12 Ill read the
question I asked.
MR. PLACITELLA: Let me put it in front of
him.
Q The question was,
Mr. Tromsdorff, when you found out you
had the multiple myeloma, did it affect your
life in any way?
Answer: You bet.
Question: How did it affect your life?
Answer: I didnt have have any pep,
thats why I went to the doctor in the first
place. I hurt. No pep. But it seemed to work
out. You couldnt — I used to have a big
garden. I told you that before. Now it is down
to a half dozen or a dozen tomato plants.
Boat and fishing and all that, those
things you just didnt do?
A Thats two different years. Two different
diseases. When I had the multiple myeloma, at first I
was no pep and this and that and the other thing but
after taking the chemotherapy, I felt much better,
right.
Q But this is the way you answered my
question back on the 8th. Is that correct?
MR. PLACITELLA: Are you going to ask him
about page 132 where he also said to you that
his activities were restored?
MR. McGRATH: Objection to counsel
prompting the witness. This is cross
examination. If you want to cover that in
redirect, go ahead and do it.
MR. PLACITELLA: I dont want the cross
examination to be taken out of context, and I
believe you have to direct his attention to all
areas where he was asked in that deposition.
MR. McGRATH: Theres no such requirement.
MR. PLACITELLA: My objection stands and
Ill ask about it myself on redirect
examination.
Q We also asked you back on the 8th,
Question: — this is also on page 144,
Question: Did the multiple myeloma
affect your relationship with your family in any
way. And you answered on 145,
Was I grouchier?
Question: Yes.
Answer: Yes.
Question: Did it affect your
relationship with your wife?
Answer: A little bit you might say. Not
a whole lot.
Question: In what way?
Answer: Sexual relationships aint what
they used to be and they aint as frequent.
A What do you want, a yes or a no or what?
Q Do you remember answering that to that
question?
A Do I remember answering it? Yes.
Q You also told us that when you found out
you had mesothelioma, that that affected your life,
too, didnt it?
A Yes.
Q And you said that it was a real tough one
and that it didnt make you happy because the doctor
told you you might die. Is that correct?
A Right.
MR. PLACITELLA: Are you going to ask him
the next sentence? I think he is entitled, you
should ask him in context.
MS. TONELLI: I object. I just went
over –
MR. PLACITELLA: Ill ask it but I want
the record to reflect you are reading half of
his testimony which should be taken in context
on the very same page wherein the next question
you ask him about how it has cut down his –
MR. McGRATH: Objection to prompting the
witness during cross examination.
MR. PLACITELLA: Im not prompting
the witness. My objection is I think you are
taking out of context his testimony and I dont
think thats fair. I will go back and ask him
about it but I want my objection to be placed on
the record. If the judge should think my
objection is wrong or somehow prejudicial, it
will be stricken from this video tape.
MS. TONELLI: We note your objection for
the record but if you would allow me to continue
my cross examination perhaps you wouldnt have
an objection.
MR. PLACITELLA: Fine.
Q Then I went on to ask you whether or not
the mesothelioma had –
Question: Has it cut down on or
activities you were able to do prior to the time
you were told you had mesothelioma?
Your answer was, Yes.
Question: In what ways?
Answer: Like I said, I dont have any
garden, I dont have any boat, I dont have any
love life. What else, Im tired all the time.
Do you remember answering that?
A Yes.
Q Thank you, sir.
Mr. Tromsdorff, after you were told you
had multiple myeloma, you took chemotherapy. Is that
correct?
A Right.
Q Is it your believe that the multiple
myeloma went into remission because of the chemotherapy
you took?
A Yes.
Q When you were told in January of 1988 you
had mesothelioma, your doctor suggested you take
chemotherapy. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You did take chemotherapy in February and
March of 1988. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q At that time you decided to no longer take
chemotherapy. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You decided it wasnt going to do you any
good so you wouldnt continue. Is that correct?
A That is right.
Q Did your doctor tell you you should
continue with the chemotherapy?
A No, the doctor gave me a couple of alternatives.
Get your lung taken out, which I rejected, take
radiation, which I rejected or take the chemotherapy.
Q Since you came back up to New Jersey for
the summer, have you seen a doctor about the
mesothelioma?
A Not about that.
Q Since the doctor in Florida had given you
your alternatives of what you could do about the
mesothelioma, have you taken that doctors –
A No.
Q Have you ever seen a psychologist or
psychiatrist or therapist in regard to this condition?
A No.
Q Mr. Tromsdorff, Im going to ask you a few
questions about when you worked at Toms River or
Ciba-Geigy, okay?
A Right.
Q That was a chemical plant. Is that
correct?
A Thats right.
Q And in that chemical plant you
occasionally used to smell fumes or odors but you dont
know what those fumes or odors were, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember me asking you in your
discovery deposition what the manufacturers names or
the trade names of the asbestos pipe covering was that
you used at Ciba-Geigy?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember your telling me you used
to get your supplies from the storeroom?
A Right.
Q When I asked you what pipe coverings you
used, do you remember you told me you believed it was
mostly JM?
A I dont know if I said mostly. I said we used
JM, yes.
Q Do you remember you told me you believe
that because of the way it felt when you used it?
A You are talking about a different product. You
are not talking about JM at all.
Q Let me refer you then to your deposition
transcript. Im going to refer you to page 103, line
6. I asked you a question and the question was,
Do you recall the manufacturers names or
trade names of the pipe covering you used when
you worked as an insulator at Toms River
Chemical?
Answer: I would have to say Manville but
I dont know who the purchasing agent bought
from.
Question: When you were an estimator,
did you have any responsibility for the ordering
of the asbestos-containing products?
Answer: No. When we were running short
in the storeroom, I would say to the guy down
there, would you see that we get some 2 inch
covering or inch and a half covering.
Question: They would simply supply you
with what you requested?
Answer: Yes. After it came in.
Question: Did you ever request any
asbestos-containing products by brand name or
manufacturers name?
Answer: That wasnt my job. That was
up to the purchasing agent.
Question: Would you ever receive
asbestos-containing products in their original
packaging when you worked as an insulator in
Toms River Chemical?
Answer: Not really. You went to the
storeroom and you said give me.
Question: When you say you feel most the
pipe covering was Manville pipe covering, on
what do you base that testimony?
Answer: They make a good covering and
you can tell by the feel of it that it was a
good covering.
Question: Is your testimony by the feel
of the covering you used –
Answer: The look, the feel, how you cut
it, et cetera.
You went on. A little bit later I asked
you if you ever recall seeing the names or
manufacturers names on a container of pipe covering or
on pipe covering itself when you worked at Toms River
and you said, the answer was I have seen JM, I have
seen Calsilite. Like I say, it wasnt my job to order
the stuff.
Do you remember giving us that testimony?
A Yes, but there seems to be a little confusion.
When I said I could tell by the feel, I thought we were
talking about cement. Because I said you could tell
the difference between the Vermont cement, bluish color
and a smoother feel and I believe thats where I got
confused or you did. One of us was confused a little
bit there.
Q This is the second time, Mr. Tromsdorff,
that when I asked you whether you recall giving a
certain answer in your deposition you told me that
there was some confusion in the understanding of the
questions and and the answers given. Is that correct?
A I dont know. Im getting more confused by the
minute. What kind of an answer do you want? That I
thought either I was confused or you was confused?
Q Im asking you if you think theres some
confusion in the responses that were given to the
answers to the questions that were –
A I think –
MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the form.
You can answer. If you are able to answer that
question, go ahead.
A Ive forgotten even what the question was. This
is very accurate. Nearly perfect. But maybe theres a
little bit of differences in what I said or what you
thought I said, right.
Q Do you remember that before we did the
discovery deposition I gave you a series of
instructions and I told you if you didnt understand
one of my questions that I would be happy to rephrase
it for you, correct?
A Yes.
Q And remember, I told you that if you
answered a question I was going to assume that you
understood it and you were answering it as truthfully
and as completely as possible. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Tromsdorff, those all the questions I
have for you right now. Thank you very much.
A Oh, thank you.
(Discussion off record.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. McGRATH:
Q Im Michael McGrath. I have a few
questions for you.
You told us that when you were employed by
P.S. Thorton, you worked at some shipyards. Is that
correct?
A Two shipyards. Primarily.
Q Occasionally you worked at other ones
during fill-in?
A Yes.
Q Did you work on board the ships?
A Yes.
Q I think you told us that the conditions
were cramped on board the ship?
A Well, after the machinery was in and the boat
was pretty near ready to be delivered, it could be
cramped in the engine rooms, especially.
Q I gather then you worked below deck?
A Yes.
Q Was the insulation being applied below
deck?
A Yes, engine room, boiler room.
Q Did you ever work below deck when any
insulation was being removed?
A No, we were just building newer boats then,
there was very little repair work.
Q There were no ventilation systems on board
those ships, were there?
A No.
Q You mentioned several products today.
Along the way you mentioned something you called
monoblock and I think you told us that it had some
glass in it and you didnt know what it was made from?
A I dont know what it was made out of, really,
but it itched like it had some glass in it.
Q So when you tell us you dont know what it
was made from, you are not sure whether or not it
contained asbestos. Is that correct?
A No.
Q You mentioned something called foam glass?
A Foam glass, yes.
Q That didnt contain asbestos, did it?
A No.
Q There were other kinds of insulation that
did not contain asbestos. Is that correct?
A Probably many kinds.
Q Did you ever work with any fiberglass
insulation?
A Yes.
Q Like fiberglass pipe covering?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever use any cork insulation?
A Yes.
Q How about hair felt?
A Yes.
Q Woolfelt?
A Yes.
Q How about asbestos-free calcium silicate?
Did you ever use that?
A It didnt say so on the box, right.
Q At Ciba-Geigy, you never worked in the
purchasing department, did you?
A No, never.
Q You didnt have anything to do with making
out the paperwork to order the material?
A No, all I wrote was the slip saying give me
x-number of feet of such and such a size covering.
Q You were never assigned to take care of
the materials that were stored in the storeroom?
A No.
Q You didnt work on the loading dock
loading or unloading trucks?
A No.
Q You didnt have time to stand around
watching other people unload the trucks?
A I told you that last time.
Q If you ever had done that, the boss would
have fired you, right?
A Right.
Q You mentioned the name State Insulation.
A Who?
Q State Insulation.
A Yes.
Q You saw that truck one time at Ciba-Geigy?
A I saw it not often but Ive seen it there, yes.
Q You saw it. You know you saw it once.
A I know I seen it once.
Q You dont think you saw it any more than
once?
A I might have.
Q But you dont have any specific
recollection?
A No.
Q I believe you used the word estimator.
Was that one of the jobs?
A What?
Q Did you have a job as an estimator at
Ciba?
A No.
Q I misunderstood. Thats all I have.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEENAN:
Q Im Tom Keenan. I represent Owens-Corning
Fiberglas.
I would like to ask you some questions
about the period 1952 to 1955 when you worked for
Schaedel & Beyer. My questions will be addressed to
pipe covering.
A Covering only, right?
Q Yes, sir. I believe either today or at
the last deposition you testified that Schaedel & Beyer
was a small company that purchased from a lot of
different people.
A I dont know who they purchased from. They had
a quite large warehouse for a small company.
Q Today you recall that they purchased
Johns-Manville, Calsilite, Kaylo and Carey pipe
covering. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q Sir, you testified today that the reason
you were able to recall those names was the writing on
cardboard boxes you saw. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, sir, at Ciba-Geigy or Toms River
Chemical, we are talking about the same place, correct,
you worked there from 1955 to 1979. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q 1955 to 1967 as an insulator, is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q Today you identified the same four pipe
covering manufacturers, Johns-Manville, I thought it
was a GM instead of a JM, Calsilite, Kaylo and Carey.
You also said something about foam glass.
A Yes.
Q Is that foam glass or fiberglass?
A Foam glass. We used fiberglass there, too.
Q In regard to the pipe covering products,
the testimony as was read back to you by Ms. Tonelli
was you would get these products from the storeroom.
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q I believe you testified at the last
deposition that you would not get them in the original
packing. Is that correct?
A Not in the — not necessarily. If the job
called for say 100 feet or so of a certain size
covering or so many square feet of block or whatever,
you got the carton because they wasnt going to take it
out of the carton and bring it down to you loose.
Q Sir, would it be fair to say that most of
the time you would receive the products out of the
original packaging?
A I would say so.
Q Sir, at the previous deposition which was
held September 8, 1988 two weeks ago, you only
identified Johns-Manville and Calsilite pipe covering
at Ciba-Geigy. Do you recall that?
A No, I dont. I could look it up on my –
Q Let me give you a page. It was shown to
you before and Im going to refer to page 104 of the
transcript. The question starts at line 17 and your
answer ends at line 22. Take your time and read that,
sir.
A What is your question?
Q My question was two weeks ago you only
identified Johns-Manville and Calsilite pipe covering
at Ciba-Geigy. Is that correct?
A It must be.
Q Today you are adding Kaylo and Carey. Is
that correct?
A Yes.
Q What is the basis for you adding more
products today?
MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the form of
the question, but you can answer it.
A What is your question again? Why did I add
them? Because I used them.
Q Now, sir, you testified before that there
was some confusion about your testimony in this time
period. I think you said the confusion was that when
you were describing pipe covering that you could
identify certain products by feel. You were actually
referring to cements.
A It was two different questions at two different
times. What I said about the cement was that it was a
different color actually when you mixed it and it had a
different feel. That was about cement, Vermont cement.
Now, as far as the pipe covering goes, Calsilite is
much lighter than Johns-Manville covering. I guess –
I dont know what is in it but it is lighter and you
can tell when you pick it up.
Q Let me ask you this. Could you identify
or differentiate between Johns-Manville, Calsilite,
Kaylo or Carey based on feel?
A No. But I say, you could tell it was much
lighter. What it says on the box is what you go by,
all right. If you had large size covering, 8 inch, 6
inch, 8 inch, there would only be a couple of sections
in a box. Then they are not going to take them out of
here. Take the box. The case.
Q Sir, I want to clear this up. Is it your
testimony that most of the pipe covering that you
worked with at Ciba-Geigy or Toms River Chemical was
Johns-Manville pipe covering?
A Well, we used all kinds. How can I say this is
this or thats that. We used all kinds.
Q You are unable to say Johns-Manville was
used most?
A Right.
Q Nothing further.
about that and I want to see if we can clear up the
confusion.
It says here, does it not, did you
ever –
MR. McGRATH: Note my objection to leading
the witness.
MR. PLACITELLA: Fine.
Q Did you see any trade names or
manufacturers names when you worked at Toms River
A They are questioning me on what I done or did.
Q You swore to the best of your knowledge
that what you were saying in there was true to the best
of your knowledge?
A It was what?
Q When you answered those Interrogatories,
you believed what you were putting in there was true to
the best of your knowledge?
A Absolutely.
Q I want to show you those Answers to
Interrogatories.
MR. McGRATH: Note my objection to leading
the witness with his own Answers to
Interrogatories.
MR. PLACITELLA: Thats fine.
MS. TONELLI: I join in the objection.
Q I would like you to look at page 4,
Ciba-Geigy, Toms River Chemical –
MR. McGRATH: Wait for a moment until I
turn to that page, please.
Q I would like you to turn to page 5. Do
you list on page 5 the name Kaylo?
A Yes.
Q When you answered these Interrogatories,
did you believe you used Kaylo as well as other pipe
coverings when you worked at Toms River Chemical?
A Yes.
Q Just so theres no confusion with respect
to this issue, would you tell us once again, the jury,
the pipe coverings you believed you used when you
worked at Toms River Chemical as an insulator?
A You mean tell you all the different brands?
Q The names of the pipe covering or the
manfuacturers.
A All right. Johns-Manville, Kaylo, Calsilite,
Carey.
Q Why do you believe you used those products
while you worked as an insulator at Toms River
Chemical?
A I have seen their names on the cartons that the
material comes in.
Q Before Ms. Tonelli asked you a question
about your discontinuing chemotherapy –
A Yes.
Q — for this treatment. Would you tell the
jury why you believed, as you stated, that it wasnt
going to do you any good?
A That is the reason that I quit the chemotherapy.
Q Why did you believe that?
A I didnt feel any better. And did you ever lay
in the hospital three days with something stuck in your
arm there? And no place to go. Maybe you could reach
the bathroom, maybe not, if you dragged that bottle
along with you. I just didnt feel that I was getting
anything from it.
Q Were you ever told by the doctor that if
you either elected surgery or radiation or chemotherapy
that that would cure your mesothelioma?
A No.
Q What was your understanding as to the
effect that would have on your life in terms of your
sickness if you elected any one of those treatments?
A Well, I have seen an awful lot. Not an awful
lot. I have seen quite a few people have their lung
out. They hang around for a couple of months and die.
I didnt want that to happen. With the radiation,
radiology, she said that if you elect to take that you
could never be operated on. It must do something to
you. I dont know what. The other way when I told her
that I wasnt going to take anymore therapy, she said
you know in some ways I dont blame you. Thats awful
close to your heart. She didnt think it was going to
do any good anyway, I dont believe.
Q Thats all I have. Thank you, Carl.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TONELLI:
Q Mr. Tromsdorff, I just have a couple of
further things to go through with you.
Mr. Tromsdorff, Mr. Placitella just asked
whether or not I had asked you if you had worked with
any other asbestos-containing pipe coverings when you
worked at Toms River Chemical or Ciba-Geigy. You said
you didnt remember. Is that correct?
A If I said it, it is correct, yes.
Q I want to refer you to page 108 of your
deposition, your discovery deposition. We had just
finished prior to my asking this question a description
of all the products that you used that you believe
contained asbestos at Ciba-Geigy. The question which
started on line 16 of page 108 was,
As you are seated here today can you
think of any other types of asbestos-containing
products or any other manfuacturers or brand
names of asbestos-containing products that you
used when you were at Toms River Chemical?
Answer: What ones did I give you?
Question: You mentioned the Manville
pipe covering, Calsilite, Baldwin-Hill block,
JM block, 7M cement, Vermont cement and 66
cement and the cloth.
Answer: That should about cover it.
Do you remember giving me that answer?
A Yes.
Q You also testified in this deposition that
you used asbestos cloth. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You couldnt remember the manufacturer or
the brand name of that asbestos cloth. Is that
correct?
A No.
Q No, you could not remember?
A I couldnt remember it. I know there were two
types, though. One was commercial cloth and the other
was pure cloth.
Q Do you remember telling us in your
discovery deposition that it would be dustier when you
worked in the shipyards than it was when you worked at
Ciba-Geigy?
A Probably, yes.
MS. TONELLI: Those are all the questions
I have for you. Thank you very much.
(The deposition is adjourned at 11:40
a.m.)
