Mesothelioma Deposition

There are many sources of asbestos exposure in New Jersey particularly for construction workers. Invariably, workers involved in chemical and pharmaceutical plant construction were exposed to asbestos. The following deposition concerns the asbestos exposure Ciba Geigeyin summit andhonover New Jersey.

1
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. MID-L-2994-09
3
JAMES JOHNSON and MARY JOHNSON, VIDEOTAPE
4 Husband and Wife, DEPOSITION UPON
ORAL EXAMINATION
5 Plaintiffs, OF
RANDAL DIAS
6 -vs-
7 3M COMPANY, et al.,
8 Defendants.
9
10 T R A N S C R I P T of the videotaped deposition
11 of the witness, called for Oral Examination in the
12 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken
13 pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and
14 Procedure by and before PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, a Notary
15 Public, Certified Court Reporter and Certified Realtime
16 Court Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the
17 offices of MORGAN, MELHUISH, ABRUTYN, 651 West Mount
18 Pleasant Avenue, Livingston, New Jersey, on
19 Wednesday, December 16, 2009, commencing at
20 approximately 1:21 p.m.
21
22
23 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC.
Certified Court Reporters & Videographers
24 7 Elm Street
Westfield, New Jersey 07090
25 Phone: (908) 789-2000 Fax: (908) 789-2007

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.
3 127 Maple Avenue
4 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
5 (732) 747-9003
6 BY: RACHEL A. PLACITELLA, ESQ.
7 Attorneys for Plaintiffs
8
9 MORGAN, MELHUISH, ABRUTYN,
10 651 West Mount Pleasant Avenue, Suite 200
11 Livingston, New Jersey 07039
12 (973) 994-2500
13 BY: ROBERT J. MACHI, ESQ.
14 Attorneys for Defendant,
15 Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation
16
17 HOLLINGSWORTH, LLP
18 1350 I Street N.W.
19 Washington, DC 20005
20 (202) 898-5800
21 BY: PATRICK R. HARKINS, ESQ.
22 Attorneys for Defendant,
23 Novartis Pharmaceuticals Company
24
25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 CARUSO, POPE, EDELL & PICINI, P.C.
4 60 Route 46 East
5 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
6 (973) 667-6000
7 BY: LISA MASSIMI, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendants,
9 Certainteed, Union Carbide and Notte
10
11 LAVIN, ONEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE &
12 DiSIPIO
13 190 N. Independence Mall West, Suite 500
14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106
15 (215) 627-0303
16 BY: JOHN J. BATEMAN, ESQ.
17 AND MATTHEW H. RUGGLES, ESQ.
18 Attorneys for Defendant, 3M Company
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25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 MARKS, ONEILL, OBRIEN & COURTNEY, PC
4 Cooper River West
5 6981 North Park Drive, Suite 300
6 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08190
7 (856) 663-4300
8 BY: BRIAN D. PAGANO, ESQ.
9 Attorneys for Defendant,
10 Georgia Pacific
11
12 MC GIVNEY & KLUGER, PC
13 23 Vreeland Road
14 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932
15 (973) 822-1110
16 BY: JENNIFER HALLY, ESQ.
17 Attorney for Defendants,
18 Horizon Blue Cross/Blue Shield, DAP, Inc.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, PC
4 100 Southgate Parkway
5 PO Box 1997
6 Morristown, New Jersey 07962
7 (973) 889-4048
8 BY: JUSTIN C. HALLBERG, ESQ.
9 Attorney for Defendant,
10 Warner-Lambert Co., LLC
11
12 SALMON, RICCHEZZA, SINGER & TURCHI, LLP
13 Tower Commons
14 132 Egg Harbor Road (Suite 406)
15 Sewell, New Jersey 08080
16 (856) 842-0781
17 BY: JOHN J. DUGAN, ESQ.
18 Attorney for Defendant, Beazer
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
2
3 WILBRAHAM, LAWLER & BUBA
4 1818 Market Street, Suite 3100
5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
6 (215) 972-2858
7 BY: IAN T. KINGSLEY, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for Defendant,
9 Conopco
10
11 A L S O P R E S E N T:
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13 NEW JERSEY CERTIFIED LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHY
14 BY: GERARD J. GENNA, Videographer
15 (609) 577-3253
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25

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1 I N D E X
2
3 WITNESS PAGE
4
5 RANDAL DIAS
6 Direct by Ms. Placitella 15
7
8
9
10 E X H I B I T S
11
12 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION IDENT.
13
14 P-1 Letter, 10/21/09 19
15 P-1-A Deposition Notice 19
16 P-1-B Deposition Notice 19
17 P-1-C Deposition Notice 19
18 P-2 Answers to Interrogatories 23
19 P-3 First Deposition of DeFonzo 34
20 P-4 Threshold Limit Values 39
21 P-5 Deposition of DeMoura 62
22 P-6 Administration Bldg. Specs 62
23 P-7 Sketch 81
24 P-8 2nd Deposition of DeFonzo 99
25

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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
2 video record in the matter of Johnson versus 3M
3 Company, et al.
4 Todays date is December 16th, 2009.
5 The time is approximately 1:21 p.m.
6 This is Docket No. MID-L-2994-09. This
7 is the video recorded deposition of Randal Dias
8 being taken at Morgan, Melhuish in Livingston, New
9 Jersey.
10 I am the camera operator. My name is
11 Gerard Genna. Phyllis Lewis is the court reporter
12 from Brody Deposition Services.
13 All appearances will be noted in the
14 transcript.
15 Phyllis, please administer the oath.
16 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your
17 right hand, please.
18 Do you solemnly swear that the
19 testimony which you are about to give will be the
20 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
21 so help you God?
22 MR. DIAS: I do.
23 R A N D A L D I A S, 3 Cedar Ridge Road,
24 Greenbrook, New Jersey, having been duly sworn,
25 testified as follows:

9
1 MR. MACHI: Before we start the
2 deposition, I just want to place a statement on the
3 record.
4 Randal Dias is here to be deposed.
5 There were three separate deposition notices that
6 were served by plaintiffs counsel.
7 The first one seeks the deposition of a
8 corporate representative with the most knowledge
9 concerning the use of asbestos and/or
10 asbestos-containing products at the former
11 Ciba-Geigy building in Summit, New Jersey, from 1973
12 to 1976. Randal Dias is that person with the most
13 knowledge, and he is here to answer questions on
14 that topic.
15 The second deposition notice seeks a
16 representative of Novartis Pharmaceuticals
17 Corporation with the most knowledge concerning the
18 use of asbestos and/or asbestos-containing products
19 at the former Sandoz building in East Hanover, New
20 Jersey from 1973 to 1976. Mr. Dias is that person
21 with the most knowledge, and he is here to answer
22 questions in that area.
23 The third deposition notice seeks a
24 representative of Novartis Pharmaceuticals
25 Corporation with the most knowledge concerning the

10
1 historical knowledge, the corporate historical
2 knowledge of the dangers of asbestos. Mr. Dias is
3 not here to give testimony on that subject as he is
4 not the designated corporate representative on -- in
5 that area.
6 I had forwarded a letter to Rachel
7 Placitella in the beginning of November that
8 specifically states that Mr. Dias would be produced
9 to testify as to the first two deposition notices,
10 but not the one in connection with historical
11 knowledge.
12 Once you establish that in fact he does
13 not have that knowledge and has not done anything in
14 connection with researching that area, that area is
15 going to be off limits, and I am not going to allow
16 him to answer questions on that area.
17 Another thing just procedurally,
18 throughout the course of the deposition, I am sure
19 you will refer to the corporation as Novartis,
20 which is fine, but just so that we understand,
21 whenever you say Novartis, it means Novartis
22 Pharmaceuticals Corporation. The same thing if you
23 refer to Ciba, it would be Ciba-Geigy Corporation.
24 Fair, enough?
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Fair enough.

11
1 Before the witness is sworn, I want the
2 record to reflect that a conference was held on this
3 particular matter before the Special Master, and the
4 Special Master ruled that questions regarding
5 historical knowledge could be asked of the witness,
6 and that you have the right to object, and you do
7 not have the right to preclude the witness from
8 testifying, and you can -- youve stated your
9 objection for the record. I will conduct my
10 deposition accordingly.
11 Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. MACHI: I disagree.
13 First of all, there was never any kind
14 of a formal ruling.
15 And second, the -- at the conference
16 what was discussed was whether or not you could ask
17 questions concerning whether or not this witness in
18 fact has that knowledge. And once the witness
19 testifies that he does not have that knowledge, I am
20 not going to allow you to ask questions on that
21 area.
22 MS. PLACITELLA: So why dont we call
23 the Special Master right now?
24 MR. MACHI: Why dont we conduct the
25 deposition, and when we get to that point, we will

12
1 act accordingly. I am not going -- you know, I am
2 not going to permit you to ask those kinds of
3 questions.
4 MS. PLACITELLA: I am going to ask all
5 of the questions that can be elicited from
6 information that are in your Answers to
7 Interrogatories.
8 MR. MACHI: I am not going to -- he has
9 not been designated as the person with the most
10 knowledge of the corporations historical knowledge
11 of the dangers of asbestos. He is not going to be
12 asked questions in that area --
13 MS. PLACITELL: Why dont we --
14 MR. MACHI: -- and I will not permit
15 him to answer questions in that area.
16 MS. PLACITELLA: -- why dont we --
17 that is totally different from what we discussed
18 with Agatha. Why dont we get her on the phone?
19 MR. MACHI: I disagree its different,
20 and you can ask whatever questions you want in
21 connection with does he have any knowledge. Once he
22 testifies to that area of the questioning, you are
23 not to going -- Im not going to permit him to
24 answer questions in connection with the companys
25 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos.

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1 I would suggest, since there are a lot
2 of other areas to go through, that we deal with
3 that.
4 (Discussion held off the record.)
5 MS. PLACITELLA: Back on the record.
6 This was going the whole time, Gerry?
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I turned it off.
8 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Now you can put
9 it back on?
10 I also want the record --
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
12 at 1:28.
13 MS. PLACITELLA: -- right. I also want
14 the record to reflect that according to the rules of
15 the deposition, you are allowed to instruct the
16 witness not to answer on matters of court order and
17 privilege, and so I am going to conduct the
18 deposition, and it is going to be videotaped, and
19 well -- you can act accordingly.
20 MR. MACHI: I will be guided by Rule
21 414-4, which does permit me to end the deposition,
22 if it gets to the point where you are harassing the
23 witness --
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Oh, Id never harass
25 him --

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1 MR. MACHI: -- or acting in bad
2 faith --
3 MS. PLACITELLA: -- oh, you dont have
4 to add that --
5 MR. MACHI: -- or if youre going to be
6 asking questions in connection with the historical
7 knowledge of the corporate -- the corporations
8 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos,
9 then I am going to stop the deposition --
10 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
11 MR. MACHI: -- or ask that you move on
12 to another area --
13 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, you know what --
14 MR. MACHI: -- and well file a motion
15 for a protective order, and well deal with it.
16 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
17 MR. MACHI: I am telling you this
18 individual here, Mr. Dias, is not being produced --
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Thats not -- Im not
20 going to discuss this any longer.
21 Why dont you swear the witness in?
22 THE REPORTER: I did.
23 MS. PLACITELLA: Oh, you did. Okay.
24 MR. MACHI: -- that -- that -- let me
25 finish. Im sorry.

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1 Mr. Dias is not being produced as the
2 person with the most knowledge as to the one
3 deposition notice, one of three, that you served in
4 connection with historical knowledge. And if he is
5 not being produced for that purpose, you have no
6 right to ask him questions as a corporate
7 representative about that.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. PLACITELLA:
10 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Dias.
11 My name is Rachel Placitella, as you
12 know, and I have some questions for you.
13 Are you currently employed -- are you
14 currently still employed by Novartis Pharmaceuticals
15 Corporation?
16 A Yes, I am.
17 Q Okay. And its my understanding that
18 you have a bachelors of science in mechanical
19 engineering from the University of Dayton?
20 A Thats correct.
21 Q And you have a masters from Fairleigh
22 Dickinson University in New Jersey in marketing, is
23 that correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Okay. And youre also a licensed

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1 professional engineer?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Okay. Now, its my understanding that
4 you started working at Sandoz in 1979. Is that
5 correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q So if you are asked any questions today
8 regarding any information concerning the Sandoz
9 building after 1979, possibly you are in a position
10 to testify from your own knowledge, correct?
11 A I can testify with regard to my own knowledge
12 on anything that I was aware of up to 1979, back to
13 1979.
14 Q Yeah, thats what I mean. From 1979
15 forward.
16 A Yes.
17 Q And its my understanding that if I ask
18 you any questions today regarding information
19 concerning Sandoz or -- and/or Ciba-Geigy for the
20 years prior to 1979, that would not be from your own
21 personal knowledge, correct?
22 A Thats correct.
23 Q Okay. And its also my understanding
24 that -- and if you are testifying about such
25 matters, that would be based upon documents that you

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1 may have reviewed and/or information that you may
2 have obtained from other people. Is that fair to
3 say?
4 A Some of the information is correct. Okay.
5 Some of the information was actually obtained by me.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Okay.
8 Q So it would be cumulative?
9 A Right.
10 Q And its also my understanding that you
11 became the head of engineering for Novartis in
12 1997 --
13 A Correct.
14 Q -- is that correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Now, you are here today as a corporate
17 representative for Novartis Corporation on various
18 areas, and your attorney and I have a disagreement
19 as to what areas that you are being produced as the
20 person with the most knowledge. But be that as it
21 may, I am going to have P-1 marked for
22 identification at the break, and that would be the
23 documents which are the notices to take deposition
24 that Mr. Machi had discussed prior to the -- prior
25 to the start of this deposition.

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1 Have you seen these documents before?
2 A Ah, sorry, Im blind, so I have to look at it
3 closer --
4 MR. MACHI: Just for the record, I
5 would ask that the deposition notices be marked
6 separately, so Exhibit No. 1 will be the first
7 deposition notice, and Exhibit No. 2 the second
8 one --
9 MS. PLACITELLA: Fine. Ill do it A, B
10 and C --
11 MR. MACHI: -- and Exhibit 3 --
12 MS. PLACITELLA: -- no problem.
13 A -- yes, Ive seen this.
14 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Just for the
15 bookkeeping purposes, P-1-A will be the defendant
16 with the most -- the representative of this
17 defendant with the most knowledge concerning the use
18 of asbestos and/or asbestos-containing products at
19 the Ciba-Geigy building located in Summit, New
20 Jersey from 1973 to 1976.
21 P-1-B will be the defendant with the
22 most -- the representative of this defendant with
23 the most knowledge concerning the use of asbestos
24 and/or asbestos-containing products at the Sandoz
25 building located in East Hanover, New Jersey, from

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1 1973 to 1976.
2 And P-1-C will be the person with the
3 most knowledge concerning this defendants
4 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos.
5 (Letter, dated 10/21/09, marked Exhibit
6 P-1 for identification.)
7 (Deposition Notice marked Exhibit P-1-A
8 for identification.)
9 (Deposition Notice marked Exhibit P-1-B
10 for identification.)
11 (Deposition Notice marked Exhibit P-1-C
12 marked for identification.)
13 BY MS. PLACITELLA:
14 Q Mr. Dias, what did you do today to
15 prepare for this deposition -- strike that.
16 What did you do to prepare for todays
17 deposition?
18 A I had read through two depositions from Mr.
19 Johnson, and that was done to identify the areas of
20 concern related to either the Sandoz or the Ciba
21 site.
22 I also reviewed my deposition with
23 regard to the discussions two years ago with regard
24 to both the Sandoz and Ciba site, and I also did
25 work with regard to the collection and review of

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1 documents, which I believe were forwarded to your
2 offices.
3 Q Could you repeat that last part again,
4 please?
5 A I did the review, okay, and collection of
6 documents.
7 Q Did you collect them first and then
8 review them, or did somebody else collect them?
9 A No, no. I collected them. Okay.
10 Q Okay.
11 A And I reviewed those documents as well, and
12 then they became part of the information that was
13 forwarded on to your office.
14 Q Did you review any other dep -- any
15 other depositions in preparation for the deposition
16 today?
17 A No, not at all.
18 Q Did you talk to any witnesses that are
19 involved in this case?
20 A No, I have not.
21 Q Did you talk to any current employees
22 of Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation?
23 A I talked to a few of the employees that helped
24 and assisted me in collecting the information that
25 was requested.

21
1 Q Did you talk to any former employees of
2 Novartis Corporation?
3 A No.
4 MR. MACHI: Wait until she is done with
5 the question before giving your answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 MR. MACHI: Okay.
8 Q You had indicated, and I had also
9 stated prior to starting this deposition, that you
10 had your deposition taken in a prior asbestos matter
11 in which I was involved. Is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And that was the deposition in which
14 you were referring that you had reviewed prior to
15 today?
16 A Excuse me. Could you repeat that?
17 Q Is that the deposition transcript that
18 you just referred to that you reviewed prior to
19 today?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Had you ever had your deposition taken
22 in any other matter, other than today and the other
23 deposition that we just spoke about?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you consult with any -- with any

22
1 attorneys in preparation for the deposition today?
2 A Just my counsel, who assisted me with putting
3 together the information.
4 Q And is that Mr. Machi that is sitting
5 next to you?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you ask Mr. Machi for any documents
8 to review in preparation for this deposition?
9 MR. MACHI: Objection. Dont answer
10 the question. Attorney work product.
11 Q Okay. Now, Novartis is a -- came into
12 existence in 1997, is that correct, as a result of a
13 merger of two companies?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. And the merger was with
16 Ciba-Geigy Corporation and Sandoz, is that correct?
17 A Correct.
18 MR. MACHI: Just for the record, I know
19 I put it on in the beginning of the deposition, but
20 Novartis means Novartis Pharmaceuticals
21 Corporation.
22 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes. I understand
23 that completely.
24 Q Now, I am going to show you what --
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Do you have an extra

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1 copy of your Answers to Interrogatories?
2 MR. MACHI: Yes.
3 MS. PLACITELLA: That will be marked
4 P-2 at the break.
5 (Answers to Interrogatories marked
6 Exhibit P-2 for identification.)
7 Q Okay. I have before me, which will be
8 marked P-2, Answers of Novartis Pharmaceuticals
9 Corporation to Supplemental Interrogatories
10 Propounded by Plaintiff.
11 Did you have occasion to review this
12 document, sir?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Okay. And Im going to draw your
15 attention to the last page of the document.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. And is that your signature, Mr.
18 Dias?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Okay. And that is a verification, as
21 it says on top, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Okay. Now, can you explain -- first of
24 all, is this the first set of interrogatories that
25 you have ever verified?

24
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q Okay. You have never verified any
3 other interrogatories in any other matter prior to
4 this present matter?
5 A Not verified, no.
6 Q Okay. Did you ever sign any
7 interrogatories?
8 A No.
9 Q Excuse me?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever review any interrogatories
12 in any asbestos matter prior to today?
13 A Not in any asbestos matter.
14 Q Did you review any Answers to
15 Interrogatories in any matter concerning Novartis
16 Pharmaceuticals Corporation --
17 A Yes --
18 Q -- prior to this one?
19 A -- yes, I have.
20 Q Okay. And what was the nature of
21 those?
22 A They were related to construction accidents
23 that might have happened on the site.
24 MR. MACHI: The question I think was in
25 connection with asbestos.

25
1 MS. PLACITELLA: First it was, and then
2 it wasnt, so Mr. Dias answered it -- understood my
3 question.
4 Q Correct, sir?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Now, again drawing your
7 attention to the last page of the document --
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q -- I should say the last clause, one,
10 two, three, four -- the fifth line, it says:
11 ...consequently, he reserves the right to make any
12 changes in the Answers if it appears at any time
13 that omissions and errors have been made or that
14 more accurate information is available.
15 Sir, did you -- do you know why that
16 clause has been included in your verification?
17 A Only from the standpoint that we -- I utilized
18 some people to help me assist in putting together
19 the information, and information might have come up
20 that has changed.
21 Q Okay. And is there any specific
22 information that has changed since you verified
23 this -- these Answers to Interrogatories?
24 A Yeah. There is a clarification on one of
25 them.

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1 Q Okay. Can you explain, please?
2 A I have to find it first.
3 Q Sure.
4 A It is question 33.
5 In our response we indicate that ...it
6 first became aware of the presence of
7 asbestos-containing materials in 701 at the Sandoz
8 job site in Building C at the Ciba site.
9 What needed to be added was in 1988 for
10 the Sandoz site in 701, and in 1997 for the Ciba
11 site in Building C.
12 Q Okay. And can you tell me the process
13 under which you verified these Answers to
14 Interrogatories?
15 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
16 the question.
17 Q Did you prepare the answers to these
18 interrogatories?
19 A Some of them, yes. Some of them, no --
20 Q Okay. And --
21 A -- and I think we explained that in the
22 verification.
23 Q Okay. Now, did you review all of the
24 answers to the interrogatories before verifying
25 them?

27
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Okay. And if you did not prepare the
3 Answers to Interrogatories -- strike that.
4 If you did not prepare a specific
5 answer to interrogatories because you had indicated
6 some you prepared and some you did not --
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q -- those that you did not prepare, who
9 did?
10 A They were done by either counsel or other
11 people in the corporation --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- you have to understand that I dont have
14 all of the information with regard to the
15 corporation, so things such as where was the company
16 incorporated, that is information that I dont have
17 available to me.
18 Q Right. I understand that.
19 Now, you had indicated that in this
20 verification that you have read and you know the
21 contents of the foregoing answers to supplemental
22 interrogatories of the defendant. Is that correct?
23 A Could you repeat the question?
24 Q I said -- I am referring directly to
25 the last page, which is your verification --

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1 A Right.
2 Q -- and I am indicating that you are
3 verifying that you have read and you know the
4 contents of the foregoing answers to supplemental
5 interrogatories of the defendant.
6 Is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q Okay. And that the answers were
9 prepared with the assistance and advice of
10 counsel --
11 A Correct.
12 Q -- and the assistance of employees and
13 representatives of Novartis Pharmaceuticals
14 Corporation, upon which you had relied --
15 A Correct.
16 Q -- is that correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And then it says that any -- that the
19 answers, subject to any inadvertent or undiscovered
20 errors, are based on, and necessarily limited by,
21 the records and information still in existence,
22 presently recollected, and thus far discoverable
23 in the course of their preparation.
24 Is that correct?
25 A That is correct.

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1 Q Okay. Now, in light of the last clause
2 that says that you have the right to make any
3 changes, if you become aware that any of the answers
4 to the interrogatories as set forth in P-2 are not
5 correct, are you in the -- do you have the right to
6 make changes to those Answers to Interrogatories?
7 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
8 the question.
9 Are you talking about Mr. Dias
10 individually or the corporation?
11 MS. PLACITELLA: I will rephrase the
12 question.
13 MR. MACHI: Thank you.
14 Q You -- you verified the answers to
15 the -- you verified these Answers to
16 Interrogatories, and this -- and it also says that
17 you reserve the right to make any changes in the
18 answers, if it appears at any time that omissions
19 and errors have been made or that more accurate
20 information is available.
21 So my question to you is: Mr. Dias, do
22 you have the authority if different information is
23 made available to you --
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q -- to change the answers to P-2?

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1 A I --
2 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
3 the question.
4 A -- I believe so --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- and as I did just earlier.
7 Q Good.
8 So now we are going to go over these
9 Answers to Interrogatories and I -- as you had
10 verified them, okay?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q Now, if you go to Question 7 as up on
13 the screen, the question is:
14 When did this defendant first become
15 aware of the potential hazards to human health posed
16 by asbestos or asbestos-containing products?
17 Okay. Now, the answer is quite
18 lengthy, but I am going to draw your attention to
19 the part thats been highlighted up on the screen
20 which says: In 1973, Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy were
21 aware of the potential health hazards of asbestos,
22 and later asbestos-containing products, upon the
23 issuance of federal regulations.
24 Can you explain to me, first of all,
25 did you prepare this answer to number seven

31
1 interrogatory?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection to the question.
3 As I indicated prior to the questions being -- prior
4 to the questioning starting, Mr. Dias is not here as
5 the corporate representative with the most knowledge
6 of the historical -- of the corporate historical
7 knowledge of the dangers of asbestos.
8 MS. PLACITELLA: I note your objection.
9 MR. MACHI: He is not going to testify
10 on that area.
11 If you want to ask him personal
12 knowledge, what he has --
13 MS. PLACITELLA: Im asking -- Im
14 asking him -- the question is: Did he prepare this
15 particular answer.
16 He verified the Answers to
17 Interrogatories, Counsel. I have a right to ask him
18 questions about that.
19 MR. MACHI: He signed the verification,
20 but if you read the verification --
21 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand that.
22 MR. MACHI: -- its clear whats in
23 there.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: -- I understand that.
25 Q Now, Mr. Dias, my question is: Did you

32
1 prepare this particular answer to the
2 interrogatories?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Okay. Now, who did prepare them?
5 A This was prepared by counsel.
6 Q Okay. And did you conduct any
7 investigation or ask any questions regarding this
8 particular answer?
9 MR. MACHI: Objection. Do not answer
10 the question because this person, Mr. Dias, is not
11 here as the designated corporate representative
12 concerning the corporate -- the history of the
13 corporations knowledge of the dangers of asbestos.
14 He is not being produced for that purpose --
15 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand that.
16 MR. MACHI: -- so hes not going to --
17 and he is not going to testify.
18 If you want to ask him questions in
19 connection with what does he know, what doesnt he
20 know and establish that he doesnt know anything,
21 and he has done no research in that connection, that
22 is fine.
23 Then we are going to move on to the
24 area that he is here to testify about. But, Rachel,
25 he is not going to answer questions in that area. I

33
1 do not have to produce one person to testify on all
2 three areas that he is here to testify on.
3 MS. PLACITELLA: Do you have other
4 witness to testify?
5 MR. MACHI: At present, no, but he is
6 not the witness.
7 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, that is not my
8 understanding.
9 MR. MACHI: How is that not your
10 understanding?
11 MS. PLACITELLA: I am not going to
12 argue with you, Counsel.
13 MR. MACHI: But, Rachel, I sent you a
14 letter --
15 MS. PLACITELLA: Im not going to argue
16 with you.
17 MR. MACHI: -- how is that not your
18 understanding?
19 MS. PLACITELLA: We had a discussion
20 with Agatha --
21 MR. MACHI: -- how is that not your
22 understanding?
23 Q Okay. Sir, are you familiar with
24 Anthony DeFanzo, D-e-F-o-n-z-o?
25 A No.

34
1 Q Okay. He testified on behalf of
2 Novartis Corporation as the person with the most
3 knowledge concerning the dangers of asbestos in
4 2003, I believe, and I am going to draw your
5 attention to his testimony, which I can have
6 identified as P-3.
7 (Deposition of Anthony M. DeFonzo
8 marked Exhibit P-3 for identification.)
9 MR. MACHI: Rachel, were not going to
10 be going into that area. If you want to move on to
11 a different area, that is fine.
12 If you dont, then the alternative is
13 to just simply stop the deposition, and I will move
14 for a protective order.
15 If you want to ask questions about the
16 uses of the asbestos in the buildings that Mr.
17 Johnson worked in, feel free to ask him questions
18 about that. I am not going to permit this witness
19 to answer questions about the corporations
20 historical knowledge when you know that he was not
21 produced for that purpose.
22 Q Sir, I direct your attention to Page
23 23, and you can see on the transcript up on the
24 screen it says number 23 -- Page 23. He was
25 questioned about when Novartis Corporation learned

35
1 about the dangers of asbestos, and he prepared a
2 declaration, which he refers to, and specifically I
3 am referring to Ciba-Geigy Corporation, and he
4 stated:
5 I am certain that Ciba-Geigy was not
6 aware of any health hazards presented by asbestos
7 until at the earliest the mid 1970s.
8 Now, did I read that correctly, sir?
9 MR. MACHI: Objection. Do not answer
10 that question. I am directing the witness not to
11 answer any questions concerning the corporations
12 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos. Do
13 not answer that question.
14 Q Do you --
15 MS. PLACITELLA: We can just keeping
16 going like this all day.
17 Q Okay. Now, sir, do you have any idea,
18 do you have any personal knowledge as to why in
19 19 -- in 2003, Ciba-Geigys position, or I should
20 say Novartis position regarding Ciba-Geigys
21 knowledge of the dangers of asbestos was that it was
22 not known until the mid 1970s at the earliest --
23 MR. MACHI: Do not --
24 Q -- do you have any knowledge about
25 that, sir?

36
1 MR. MACHI: -- objection. Do not
2 answer that question.
3 And if you continue with this line of
4 questioning, were going to stop the deposition.
5 If you want to move on to the areas for
6 which he has been produced, feel free to do so.
7 MS. PLACITELLA: I am going to create a
8 record, Counsel, so Im going to just keep going --
9 MR. MACHI: Im -- Im going to stop
10 the deposition --
11 MS. PLACITELLA: -- so you know --
12 MR. MACHI: -- so you dont have any
13 knowledge -- I mean, what was that? I dont
14 understand that. He didnt answer the question
15 because I directed him not to answer --
16 MS. PLACITELLA: No. I said I am
17 creating a record, Counsel. I have a right to ask
18 the questions. If youre going to instruct him --
19 MR. MACHI: No. You dont have the
20 right to ask these questions.
21 MS. PLACITELLA: -- okay. I am not
22 going to discuss this.
23 Q Okay. So you dont know why the
24 corporation changed its position as to when it first
25 learned about the dangers of asbestos, is that

37
1 correct?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection. Do not answer
3 the question. You are not here to answer questions
4 concerning the historical knowledge of the
5 corporation and the dangers of asbestos.
6 Hes not the designated corporate
7 representative for that purpose.
8 MS. PLACITELLA: We will come back to
9 this question.
10 Q Now, lets talk about Question 8:
11 Has this defendant or its
12 predecessors, subsidiaries, or parent corporations
13 ever been a member of, been affiliated with or
14 provided funding to any of the organizations set
15 forth below?
16 And the first one is the Industrial
17 Hygiene Foundation.
18 And your answer, sir, is: Novartis
19 Pharmaceuticals Corporation has to date been unable
20 to determine whether Sandoz or Ciba-Geigy were
21 members of any of the above-named organizations
22 during the relevant time period.
23 Did you prepare that answer, sir?
24 MR. MACHI: First of all, objection to
25 the form of the question in that it is not his

38
1 answer. It is the answers of Novartis
2 Pharmaceuticals Corporation, number one.
3 And number two, to the extent that
4 were now getting back into the area that I said we
5 are not going to get into, hes not going to answer
6 these types of questions.
7 Q Well, Mr. Dias, you had indicated in
8 your -- in your verification that you reserve the
9 right to make any changes in the answers, if it
10 appears that at any time that omissions and errors
11 have been made or that more accurate information is
12 available.
13 Well, I happen to have -- if I happen
14 to have accurate information about answer number
15 nine --
16 MR. MACHI: We are not going to go into
17 that area --
18 MS. PLACITELLA: He signed --
19 MR. MACHI: -- he is not here as a
20 designated representative.
21 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Were going to
22 take a break.
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the video record
24 at 1:52.
25 (Recess taken.)

39
1 MS. PLACITELLA: Back on the record.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the video
3 record at 1:58.
4 BY MS. PLACITELLA:
5 Q So what safe practices did Ciba-Geigy
6 undertake to protect its employees from the dangers
7 of asbestos?
8 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 What -- first of all, what period of
11 time are you talking about?
12 Q What -- historically --
13 A Historically at the Ciba site?
14 Q -- yes, at the Ciba site in Summit.
15 A Yeah. At the Ciba site I can only -- my
16 knowledge only goes back to 1997, so anything prior
17 to that, I cannot -- I cannot respond to.
18 Q Were you aware that there were New
19 Jersey regulations put in place regarding safe
20 practices in the workplace back in 1958, sir?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
22 the question.
23 A No, I was not.
24 (Threshold Limit Values marked Exhibit
25 P-4 for identification.)

40
1 Q I am going to show you what has been
2 marked as P-4 for identification.
3 Have you ever seen that before, sir?
4 A No, I have not.
5 Q The Ciba-Geigy site in Summit, thats
6 in New Jersey, correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q Okay. And you were not aware, and no
9 one in your employment has told that you that there
10 was Threshold Limit Values that were regulated in
11 the workplace beginning in 1958?
12 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
13 the question.
14 He already said he has no knowledge of
15 this document. So if he has no knowledge of the
16 document, he cant speak to it.
17 Q And, sir, the last page of the document
18 specifically refers to material -- mineral dust, and
19 thats asbestos --
20 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
21 the question.
22 Q -- you were not aware of that, sir?
23 A I was not aware of that at all.
24 Q So in your review of all of the
25 documents that you have reviewed and in discussions

41
1 that you had with employees in the Novartis
2 Corporation, you were never made aware that there
3 were State regulations in place, specifically
4 regarding the Ciba-Geigy facility. Is that correct?
5 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
6 the question.
7 A There are currently no people at the
8 Ciba-Geigy facility because we no longer own the
9 facility.
10 Q So then you have no -- you have no
11 information that Ciba-Geigy ever followed these
12 regulations, is that correct?
13 A I have no knowledge prior to 1997.
14 Q And not only does -- do these
15 regulations pertain to asbestos, they pertain to
16 fumes, gases, and vapors, mists.
17 Were you aware of that, sir?
18 A No, I wasnt.
19 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
20 the question.
21 Q And Ciba-Geigy was a manufacturing
22 facility of various drugs in 1958, isnt that true?
23 A I do not know what they were doing in 1958.
24 Q And who would know that?
25 A I have no idea.

42
1 Q Well, lets talk about Novartis
2 Corporation.
3 How many -- is Novartis Corporation an
4 international corporation?
5 MR. MACHI: Again, Novartis
6 Pharmaceuticals Corporation we are talking about,
7 correct?
8 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes.
9 Q Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation,
10 is that an international corporation?
11 A No. It is a U.S. based company, and I believe
12 its incorporated in Delaware.
13 Q Okay. And how many employees does it
14 have?
15 A It has in the neighborhood of about 11,000.
16 Q 11,000. Okay.
17 And what about Ciba-Geigy?
18 Tell me about Ciba-Geigy in the 19 --
19 well talk about the 1970s and 1980s. How big of a
20 corporation was that, sir?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection. This is outside
22 of the scope of what hes here to testify about.
23 Hes here to testify about the two
24 deposition notices --
25 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand that. I

43
1 am allowed some latitude, Counsel.
2 Q So how big of a corporation was
3 Ciba-Geigy in the 1970s and 1980s?
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q It was an international corporation,
6 wasnt it?
7 MR. MACHI: Objection. He already
8 testified he has no idea.
9 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
10 Q Were you aware, sir, that the
11 Ciba-Geigy site was first constructed in either
12 1937, around that time?
13 A Yeah. I was aware of the fact that the site
14 was constructed somewhere around the late thirties,
15 early forties.
16 Q And Building C, which is my
17 understanding was the building that Mr. Johnson
18 worked at, was the location of the quality control
19 laboratory area, is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And there were over 30 buildings on
22 that site, is that right?
23 A In that neighborhood of about 30.
24 Q It is my understanding that a lot of
25 the buildings, they went by -- they were labeled by

44
1 letter. Is that correct?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And Building G was an engineering
4 building, is that true?
5 A Well, it wasnt an engineering building. It
6 was -- part of it was an office --
7 Q Okay.
8 A -- and part of it was utilities maintenance.
9 Q Okay. Now, it is my understanding that
10 the Building G has files, and inside of -- and these
11 files were composed of drawings for each building on
12 the Ciba-Geigy site. Is that true?
13 A Hum, they had some drawings, not drawings for
14 every single building on site.
15 Q Okay. Well -- did I ask you about
16 David DeMoura?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. And you -- youre not familiar
19 with him?
20 A Yes, I am.
21 Q Oh, you are familiar with him?
22 MR. MACHI: You had asked about Anthony
23 DeFanzo.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
25 Q And he -- he sat for a deposition in I

45
1 think 1990.
2 Did you have an occasion to review his
3 deposition transcript?
4 A No, I did not.
5 Q Well, we will go through it.
6 He indicated that files were kept in
7 discreet areas, drawings kept in one area,
8 specifications kept in a different set of files, but
9 in the same area, and purchase orders -- orders in
10 another set of files, same area.
11 I am going to show you his testimony,
12 and that is regarding all of the buildings.
13 Oh, do you got it?
14 A Uh-huh, uh-huh.
15 THE REPORTER: Is that yes?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sorry.
17 MR. MACHI: No uh-huhs.
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know. Yes.
19 Q He indicates that the specification
20 files are kept by building.
21 Were you aware of that, sir?
22 A No, I was not aware of that --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- what I can tell you about --
25 Q Well, thats not -- let me ask the

46
1 questions, and then your attorney has a right to ask
2 you questions.
3 It says purchase oils -- orders are
4 filed by building.
5 Were you aware of that, sir?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. And it said, purchase order
8 files include contracts that Ciba-Geigy entered into
9 for work.
10 Were you aware of that, sir?
11 A No.
12 Q He said some documents, there was one
13 document in particular that dated back to 1941.
14 Were you aware of that, sir?
15 A No.
16 Q He goes on to talk about in Building C
17 the Wigton and Abbott contract 2341.
18 And you are aware of that, correct?
19 A I would have to check the information I
20 provided. There was a Wigton-Abbott specification
21 that was in there, but I dont know if it refers to
22 the same number.
23 Q Well, I received sections of the Wigton
24 and Abbott -- Wigton-Abbott contract 2341, which has
25 been Bate stamped NOV 00013 --

47
1 A Uh-huh.
2 Q -- which I will show you.
3 Is this what you were referring to,
4 sir?
5 A Ah, yes. This is what I was referring to.
6 It says: This is contract 2341.
7 Q Okay. Now, where is -- where is the
8 entire contract, sir?
9 A I dont know.
10 At this particular point in time, the
11 only information that I have is what was left in the
12 files. All of the information regarding the Ciba
13 site was either not available to us because it
14 wasnt available at the time that I took over the
15 operation in 1997 or has been transferred to
16 Schering Plough --
17 Q Okay.
18 A -- from their acquisition of the site.
19 Q Hum, that is interesting.
20 I was from -- Mr. DeMoura testified
21 that all of this information regarding the
22 specifications, the contracts, the purchase orders
23 for each building was put into a book called
24 Asbestos Review 1990.
25 Were you aware of that, sir?

48
1 A No.
2 Q And the purpose of the book was to
3 collect information about asbestos-containing
4 materials in all of the buildings on the Ciba-Geigy
5 site in Summit.
6 Were you aware of that, sir?
7 A Not at all.
8 Q Okay. So your documents concerning
9 Building C are presently located where, sir?
10 A There are no documents.
11 Q Well, what is this Wigton-Abbott
12 contract 2341 thats up on the screen thats been
13 identified --
14 A Yeah. That was the one piece of information
15 that we had in our files. It was just one of those
16 pieces that must have stuck around and was not
17 either transferred to the Schering people.
18 Q Okay. And it indicates as up on the
19 screen, that asbestos-containing materials are
20 transite duct work, which is one-quarter-inch thick
21 transite sheet, which is manufactured by
22 Johns-Manville.
23 Were you aware of that, sir?
24 A I was aware of the information that was
25 provided in the specifications, and I believe this

49
1 was dated back to 1967, if I am not mistaken, when
2 they renovated the building.
3 Q Okay. Now, Ciba-Geigy also says in
4 Building 6, there was an asbestos abatement material
5 reassessment survey report.
6 MR. MACHI: Building C?
7 MS. PLACITELLA: And I am referring to
8 Building C.
9 Q Is that correct, sir?
10 MR. MACHI: What page are you on?
11 MS. PLACITELLA: I am referring to --
12 Q Are you aware that there was an
13 asbestos-containing material reassessment survey
14 report that was done by Ciba-Geigy or Ciba-Geigy --
15 I should say Novartis prepared in 1999?
16 Were you aware of that, sir?
17 A Yes, I was.
18 Q And that is this document that I --
19 A Correct.
20 Q -- is this one of the documents that
21 you found and gave to counsel?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. MACHI: Are you referring to Bate
24 stamp No. 1, cover sheet?
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes.

50
1 A Yes, Im sorry.
2 Q And building number C says that the
3 building was constructed in 1936.
4 You were aware of that, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that the -- all fittings on all
7 pipe applications should be considered ACM.
8 Is that correct, according to what I
9 have up on the screen in this document, sir?
10 A According to what is in the document that we
11 did in 1999 or 1997. I recall it as being 1997.
12 Q Well, first of all, what is ACM?
13 A ACM?
14 Q Yes. What does that stand for?
15 A Asbestos-Containing Materials.
16 Q Im going to show you page one.
17 Do you see the date on that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And it was 1999?
20 A 1999.
21 Q Okay. It also indicates that the first
22 floor ACM or asbestos-containing material uses
23 remained extensive, although several -- several
24 rooms were abated.
25 Did I read that correctly, sir?

51
1 Do you have a copy to show -- to share
2 with your client?
3 MR. MACHI: Yes.
4 A Yeah. This is the information that we did --
5 MR. MACHI: The question was: Did she
6 read that correctly.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 Q Okay. And Im also going to ask you if
9 you can refer to NOV 13, 15, 16. Those were specs
10 for the building from the Wigton-Abbott contract.
11 Is that correct?
12 A Thats correct, from contract 2341.
13 Q Okay. And it indicates that transite
14 lined -- lined cabinets shall be removable backs and
15 top lining on page 15 --
16 MR. MACHI: Where are you?
17 MS. PLACITELLA: Page 15.
18 Q Is that correct?
19 A Page 15.
20 Q Uh-huh.
21 MR. MACHI: Can you, ah --
22 A Well, that is handwritten in, so it could be
23 part of the original spec, and it could not.
24 Q Okay. And it also indicates on number
25 J about the counter tops, that they were a composite

52
1 of asbestos Portland cement and chemical mixture.
2 A Ah, page 16 -- uh-huh.
3 Q Do you see that, sir?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 MR. MACHI: Under J.
6 Q And you are aware from reviewing the
7 transcripts of Mr. Johnson, that he testified that
8 he believes he was exposed to asbestos from the
9 cabinets and the counter tops, are you aware of
10 that?
11 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
12 the question, and it mischaracterizes his testimony.
13 A I read that in his testimony.
14 Q Now, I was also provided in discovery
15 NOV 11.
16 Did you find that, sir?
17 A Yes.
18 Q That is dated March 9th, 1990?
19 A Uh-huh.
20 MR. MACHI: You have to answer yes or
21 no.
22 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
23 Q Do you know where that document came
24 from?
25 A That document was in our file.

53
1 Q And what -- what did the file
2 reference?
3 A It was just Building C in Summit, and this --
4 the two pages actually were together, 11 and 12 --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- I have no idea what it was referencing.
7 Q Well, you -- counsel may not have given
8 you Mr. DeMouras transcript, but I reviewed Mr.
9 DeMouras transcript, which we will have marked at
10 the break, and he refers to, as I said to you
11 before, this Asbestos Review 1990 notebook. And it
12 is my understanding based upon his testimony, that
13 this Building C is the result of the -- is a part of
14 the compilation from that Asbestos Review 1990 book.
15 Are you aware of that, sir?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. Then lets go through it. It
18 indicates based upon their assessment in 1990, the
19 asbestos-containing materials in Building C, it
20 indicates -- where is my trusty -- it indicates a
21 rectangular fabricated fume and high temperature
22 duct work. Do you see that, sir?
23 MR. MACHI: What page are you on?
24 MS. PLACITELLA: 11.
25 A Yes, I do see it.

54
1 Q Okay. And did you see round commercial
2 duct transites?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Did you find asbestos-containing
5 floor tiles?
6 MR. MACHI: Im going to object to the
7 form of these questions only because if you look at
8 the document, there are different categories and
9 check marks as presumed --
10 MS. PLACITELLA: Right, I understand
11 that.
12 Q Well, it indicates that
13 asbestos-containing floor tiles are presumed
14 present.
15 Is that correct, sir, based upon this
16 document?
17 A I cant infer that from the document.
18 The only thing I can infer from the
19 document was this checklist to look at things that
20 could or in fact have been asbestos-containing
21 materials.
22 Q Okay. And do you see it says
23 laboratory bench tops is checked off as well?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q And counter tops?

55
1 A Correct.
2 Q Do you see that, sir?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And transite-lined cabinets?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q Even though it was handwritten on the
7 spec sheet, do you see that it is checked off here
8 as transite-lined cabinet that are checked off?
9 Do you see that, sir?
10 A Well, I see that on this sheet, it indicates
11 that the laboratory bench tops were transite lined.
12 Q Sir, this document indicates the
13 presence of asbestos in 1990, correct, regarding
14 Building C?
15 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
16 the question.
17 A I cant verify that this actually indicates
18 asbestos was there --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- as -- as an engineer, I could say this was
21 a checklist that was compiled to determine whether
22 or not materials were in fact asbestos-containing --
23 Q Right.
24 A -- this doesnt indicate any testing or any
25 requirements that would verify that any of the

56
1 suspect materials were in fact asbestos-containing.
2 Q Well, lets look at Building C on the
3 asbestos abatement material reassessment survey
4 report. Obviously, I dont have the whole document,
5 but it does talk about in 1999, that there were
6 asbestos-containing fittings on a pipe
7 application -- no, Im sorry -- it says: All
8 fittings on all pipe applications should be
9 considered asbestos-containing material.
10 So my question to you, sir, is:
11 Why the items were identified as
12 asbestos-containing, or as you said possibly
13 asbestos-containing --
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q -- in 1990, why -- why was there an
16 abatement report as late as 1999?
17 Can you account for that lapse of time?
18 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
19 the question.
20 You can answer it.
21 A Uh-huh.
22 The report that you are referring to in
23 1999 was put together for us because we were in the
24 process of selling the Summit site. We wanted to
25 identify a number of different items.

57
1 Asbestos-containing material was one of them as to
2 what would be the impact on the sales price for the
3 facility.
4 Q And so what you are saying is that
5 there was no effort on behalf of Ciba-Geigy prior to
6 the sale to remove the asbestos-containing products
7 that was not the basis of this report?
8 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 A The report was specifically compiled as a
11 result of the merger to deal with the sale of the
12 Summit site.
13 Q Okay. Now, based upon your Answers to
14 Interrogatories, as your counsel said, I am not
15 allowed to ask you about, you verified that
16 Ciba-Geigy first became aware of the dangers of
17 asbestos in 1973. Was there --
18 MR. MACHI: Objection.
19 MS. PLACITELLA: -- I didnt finish my
20 question, Counselor.
21 MR. MACHI: Go ahead.
22 Q -- was there any effort on behalf of
23 the defendant, your corporation, to remove any
24 asbestos-containing products between 1973 and 1999?
25 A I am not aware of any --

58
1 Q Okay.
2 A -- remember my understanding of the Summit
3 site is to 1997.
4 Q I understand that.
5 Based upon the transcript that I
6 reviewed, and tell me if you have any personal
7 knowledge about this information,
8 asbestos-containing products, the following
9 asbestos-containing products were identified in
10 Building C.
11 MR. MACHI: This is Mr. DeMouras
12 deposition?
13 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes.
14 Q Asbestos cement and relief panels, were
15 you aware of that, sir?
16 MR. MACHI: Can you refer to that part
17 of the deposition?
18 MS. PLACITELLA: I will. Im going to
19 ask him questions first.
20 Q Were you personally aware of that, sir?
21 A In Building C?
22 Q Yes.
23 A What was the time frame?
24 Q The time frame was I guess 1990.
25 A No, I was not.

59
1 Q Well, no, Im sorry. Lets just talk
2 about generally. Im not going to limit it to
3 Building C. Lets just talk about the following
4 asbestos-containing materials that were noted and
5 throughout the asbestos report book and dated
6 1990 -- Asbestos Review back in 1990.
7 Were you aware?
8 A 1990 or 1999?
9 Q No. 1990.
10 Remember we had discussed that there
11 was a book prepared, specifically to identify all
12 asbestos-containing products in the various
13 buildings throughout the Ciba-Geigy site in Summit.
14 Do you remember that discussion that we
15 just had a few minutes ago?
16 A That was from the deposition of Mr. DeMoura.
17 Q Correct.
18 And in this book throughout various
19 buildings, asbestos cement was identified as being
20 present. Are you aware of that, sir?
21 MR. MACHI: One second.
22 Im going to object to this line of
23 questioning. It has been determined that Mr.
24 Johnson worked in Building C. Whether or not
25 asbestos was located in any of the other buildings

60
1 is of absolutely no relevance to this matter, so why
2 are we going --
3 MS. PLACITELLA: Im allowed some
4 latitude.
5 MR. MACHI: Very little latitude.
6 Q Were you aware of that, sir?
7 A Can you repeat the question?
8 Q Well, Im going to give you a list of
9 asbestos-containing materials that were identified
10 in -- in the Ciba-Geigy plant.
11 Now, they were identified in 1990, and
12 we dont know how long they were there, but the
13 report is dated 1990. Asbestos cement, were you
14 aware of that, sir?
15 MR. MACHI: Objection.
16 Youre talking about Buiding C?
17 MS. PLACITELLA: No, Im talking
18 about -- Ive not been clear --
19 MR. MACHI: Hes not going to testify
20 about any building other than Building C, Counsel.
21 Q Were you aware that there was
22 asbestos-containing caulk found on -- in Building C?
23 A Caulk?
24 Q Caulk.
25 A No.

61
1 Q Were you aware that there was
2 asbestos-containing cabinets and counter tops found
3 in Building C?
4 A I was aware of the fact that there were
5 transite-lined fume hoods in Building C.
6 Q Were you aware that there were
7 asbestos-containing bench tops, counter tops and
8 cabinets?
9 A Only from the report that we did in 1999.
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
11 2:27. I just need to change the tape.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: Uh-huh.
13 (Recess taken)
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the video
15 record at 2:30.
16 BY MS. PLACITELLA:
17 Q Mr. Dias, regarding the Sandoz
18 building, where is the Sandoz building located?
19 A In East Hanover, New Jersey.
20 Q And it is my understanding that based
21 upon your review of Mr. Johnsons testimony and your
22 knowledge of the various buildings at the Sandoz
23 facility, that you believe that he was -- that he
24 worked in Building 701, is that correct?
25 A Correct.

62
1 Q And in discovery, I was given
2 specifications for the administration building, and
3 that would be 701. Is that correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 (Discussion held off the record.)
6 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. This will be 5.
7 5 will be the DeMoura transcript, and this will be
8 6, okay.
9 (Deposition of David A. DeMoura marked
10 Exhibit 5 for identification.)
11 (Specifications for the Administration
12 Building marked Exhibit P-6 for identification.)
13 Q And thats the Specifications for the
14 Administration Building, and obviously you are aware
15 of this document, correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And is this the document that you have
18 given to your attorneys?
19 A Correct.
20 Q In response to my discovery requests,
21 right?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Okay. And -- and it indicates that --
24 lets go through this -- there were metal pans -- or
25 the contract was for metal pan acoustic ceilings,

63
1 correct?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And the manufacturers of the
4 contractors -- let me see -- were Armstrong Cork --
5 Cork Company, and it says, and Celotex Corp. will
6 be considered equal if ventilating characteristics
7 and fire ratings are equal in all respects.
8 A Can I ask what page you are on?
9 Q And I am on page 34.
10 A 34?
11 Q Yes. Thats the NOV, the Bates stamped
12 number.
13 A Yeah. This is not for metal panels. This is
14 for mineral fissured acoustical tile.
15 Q Okay. So are you saying there were two
16 separate ceilings that were put in?
17 A There were different ceilings that were put in
18 based on different ceilings within the building.
19 Q Okay.
20 A You have to refer to the drawings, the
21 architectural drawings, to determine the location of
22 where the materials were handled.
23 Q Okay. And do you know -- I didnt
24 bring the architectural drawings with me.
25 Do you know -- can you give us a

64
1 summary of where the tile was in each location?
2 A Uh-huh.
3 Basically the mineral fissured
4 acoustical tiles I believe was in the penthouse of
5 the building where the board room was.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Throughout the building where the offices
8 were, which is floors two through six, was metal
9 panel. And then down in the sub level, there was an
10 auditorium which had some, I believe, acoustical
11 plaster sections of the ceiling.
12 Q Okay. And this was -- when was this
13 time -- I dont see a date.
14 Oh, it is 1963 as the specification --
15 A Should be -- it should be 1963 was the
16 specification.
17 Q Okay. So you dont have any
18 specifications for any renovations to those
19 buildings, is that correct?
20 A No. Building 701 remained in its original
21 tact --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- with only minor renovations to the space
24 until 1991.
25 Q Okay. Okay.

65
1 So then how do you say that this is the
2 building that Mr. Johnson worked at because he
3 obviously didnt work there in 1963?
4 A Right.
5 Mr. Johnson indicated in his deposition
6 that he had worked in a five to six-story building
7 doing a small ceiling renovation in one of the
8 buildings.
9 The only building that has five or six
10 stories is Building 701.
11 Q Okay. So now lets go through all of
12 the buildings that are on the premises.
13 Okay. Can you describe -- go through
14 each building?
15 A Each building?
16 Q Yes.
17 A When it dates back to 1973 or 75 when Mr.
18 Johnson was on the site?
19 Q Right.
20 A You had Building 401 --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- which had a two-story lab.
23 Q Uh-huh.
24 A You had Building 701.
25 Q Uh-huh.

66
1 A You had Building 403.
2 Q Okay.
3 A You had Building 4 --
4 Q Why dont you tell me about 403?
5 A It is a lab.
6 Q Okay. And how many stories?
7 A I believe its three stories.
8 Q Okay.
9 A 404.
10 Q Wait a second.
11 Three stories, the lab, 403, is every
12 single -- is the lab comprised of every single inch
13 of 403, or are there offices or any other kind of
14 areas in that building?
15 A Well, theres -- there were offices located
16 within a lab, but it is predominantly --
17 Q Some offices?
18 A -- a laboratory building.
19 Q Okay. So the Sandoz Building 401,
20 two-story lab.
21 And are there any offices in that
22 building?
23 MR. MACHI: Rachel, whats the
24 relevance of any of this?
25 MS. PLACITELLA: I want to see how Mr.

67
1 Dias determined that it was Building 701 that Mr.
2 Johnson worked at.
3 MR. MACHI: You asked that question and
4 he gave you the answer.
5 MS. PLACITELLA: Now I want to see how
6 it compared to the other buildings.
7 MR. MACHI: The only building on site
8 that was five or six stories was 701 --
9 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand that.
10 MR. MACHI: -- Mr. Johnson testified
11 that he worked in a five or six-story building.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand that.
13 Q 401, two-story lab.
14 Any offices?
15 A There is always offices in a lab.
16 Q Okay. 701, which we know about.
17 403, three stories, a lab and offices.
18 Go ahead. What else? What other
19 buildings?
20 A 404.
21 Q Uh-huh. What was in -- how many floors
22 in 404?
23 A It was a four-story lab building.
24 Q Four-story.
25 Okay. And offices, too?

68
1 MR. MACHI: I object to the form of the
2 question. I dont think he testified to that.
3 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, he just
4 indicated that all labs have offices.
5 Q So were there offices in 404 as well?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. What other buildings were there?
8 A 501.
9 Q Okay.
10 A That is a three-story office building.
11 Q Okay.
12 A 502.
13 Q Yes. And how many stories did that
14 have?
15 A That was a three-story lab building.
16 Q Were there offices in that building as
17 well?
18 A You know, I dont recall in that building
19 because the two buildings were connected.
20 Q Okay. Any other buildings?
21 A 101.
22 Q How many floors?
23 A Single-story warehouse.
24 Q What else?
25 A 103.

69
1 Q Yes. How many floors?
2 A Three-story production facility.
3 Q Whats a production facility?
4 A It is where they made dye stuffs.
5 Q Were there offices there?
6 A No, there were not.
7 Q Okay. Any other buildings?
8 A Building 414.
9 Q Yes. How many floors?
10 A That was a story above grade.
11 Q So it was below level and only one
12 story above?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Okay. But how many -- so how many
15 stories was it total?
16 A It was considered a story above grade because
17 the first story is not considered a full floor --
18 Q And how many --
19 A -- and that was offices.
20 Q Offices.
21 Any others?
22 A 415.
23 Q Yes.
24 A That was a dosage forum production plant.
25 Q How many floors?

70
1 A Single.
2 Q Any other buildings?
3 A There was Building 410 --
4 Q Yes.
5 A -- which was an old production facility, no
6 longer in existence.
7 Q 410 was -- Im sorry. I missed that.
8 A Production facility.
9 Q And how many floors?
10 A I cant recall because the building has been
11 demolished. I just know of the existence of the
12 building.
13 Q Any other buildings?
14 A Building 407, three stories.
15 Q Yes, yes.
16 A That is a pilot plant.
17 Q Yes.
18 A And then there was --
19 Q Were there offices in the pilot plant?
20 A Usually not.
21 Q Okay.
22 A And then you had 402, which was the
23 maintenance building. That was a single-story
24 building.
25 Q Any others?

71
1 A In 1970, no. In the mid seventies.
2 Q So just -- so you can explain this
3 Administration Building Specifications, this
4 document, it is your understanding, explained that
5 the building was built in 1963. Is that correct?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And this is for Building 701?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Okay. And based upon this
10 specification that the ceilings were installed in
11 1963 and that there were no renovations at all?
12 A No, the first major --
13 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
14 the question.
15 Q Well, strike that then.
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Were there -- lets backtrack.
18 Building 701 was how many stories?
19 MR. MACHI: Asked and answered.
20 A Its six stories.
21 Q Six stories. Okay.
22 And when -- explain if there were any
23 renovations that involved the ceiling work.
24 A Prior to 1979, I dont have any direct
25 knowledge, but I do have knowledge of when the

72
1 building was actually demolished and rebuilt in
2 1990, and the building is pretty much through 63,
3 64, whenever it was completed and occupied in the
4 same format, in the same structure that it was when
5 we demolished the interiors of the building in 1990
6 or 91.
7 Q You lost me there.
8 Can you start all over?
9 A Okay.
10 The building itself, like I said, I
11 probably cannot speak to anything prior to 1979 when
12 I wasnt at the site as to whether or not there were
13 some renovations in the building.
14 What I can tell you is when we
15 demolished the interiors of the building in 1990,
16 they were in the exact same original condition as
17 the original design of the building that dated back
18 to 1963 and 1964.
19 Q Wait. Can you repeat what you just
20 said?
21 MR. MACHI: Why dont you just read
22 back the answer?
23 MS. PLACITELLA: No.
24 Q Why dont you just repeat it?
25 A What section?

73
1 Q What you just said. What was your last
2 sentence?
3 A Was the exact same design that existed.
4 Q You mean as far as the actual
5 structure?
6 A No, no, the interior.
7 Q The interior was the same when it was
8 demolished.
9 When was it demolished?
10 A 1990-1991.
11 Q 1990-1991, and youre saying that it
12 was in the exact same condition from what date to
13 the date it was demolished?
14 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
15 the question. You are mischaracterizing his
16 testimony. He already said he could only talk from
17 79 forward, and he didnt know one way or
18 another --
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Strike that.
20 Can you read back his last answer --
21 MR. MACHI: -- he didnt know one way
22 or the other prior to 1979 --
23 MS. PLACITELLA: Please dont testify.
24 MR. MACHI: -- I am not testifying --
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes, you are.

74
1 Ill ask him again.
2 Thank you.
3 Can you read back his last question --
4 his last answer?
5 THE REPORTER: Sure.
6 (The requested portion was read back by
7 the reporter as follows: Question: You mean as
8 far as the actual structure?
9 Answer: No, no, the interior.
10 Question: The interior was the same
11 when it was demolished.
12 When was it demolished?
13 Answer: 1990-1991.)
14 Q So I want to know, you said it was
15 demolished in 1991 or 1990?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Okay. And what was your knowledge of
18 the building -- what is your first knowledge of the
19 building up prior to its -- prior to it being
20 demolished?
21 A From 79 to 1990.
22 Q Okay. From 79 to 1990, is it your
23 testimony there was no renovation?
24 A That there was no noticeable renovation.
25 Q Okay. So in 1979 -- 1979 to 1990 or

75
1 91, no known renovation. Okay.
2 And you have no knowledge about from
3 1963 to 1979?
4 A Only from what I read in the specifications
5 and the construction documents.
6 Q Okay. And tell me about was a -- lets
7 go over -- explain to me the ceilings in the -- the
8 ceiling specs for Building 701.
9 It indicates that the first floor had
10 3600 square feet of acoustical plaster. Is that
11 correct?
12 MR. MACHI: What page are you referring
13 to?
14 MS. PLACITELLA: 41.
15 MR. MACHI: Bates stamped 41?
16 MS. PLACITELLA: Uh-huh.
17 MR. MACHI: Thats -- that is a
18 different document. That is not the specs.
19 Q Okay. So now, what is --
20 MR. MACHI: The specs go from NOV 28
21 through 37, and then there is a Princeton Testing
22 Laboratory Report, dated February of 1988, that goes
23 from 38 to --
24 THE WITNESS: To the end, I think.
25 MR. MACHI: -- 64 -- 64.

76
1 Q Okay. So then lets look at the
2 Princeton Testing Laboratory, 1988. Okay?
3 A Okay.
4 Q And that indicates that if you look on
5 page 40, that the basement auditorium, the entrance
6 way had asbestos-containing sprayed on acoustical
7 ceiling material.
8 Is that correct?
9 MR. MACHI: Where are you?
10 MS. PLACITELLA: 40.
11 MR. MACHI: Yeah, I know. But where?
12 MS. PLACITELLA: The last paragraph.
13 A Uh-huh, that is correct.
14 Q Okay. Do you have any personal
15 knowledge about the sprayed on acoustical ceiling
16 material?
17 A Personal knowledge?
18 Q Yes.
19 A No, just as it related to some of the
20 demolition that we did in the nineties.
21 Q Okay. But do you have any personal
22 knowledge about this report and the information
23 contained in the report concerning the sprayed on
24 acoustical ceiling material?
25 A I only know the information that is contained

77
1 in this report.
2 Q Okay. Now, does this -- is this the
3 same material based upon the specs that were
4 supposed to be in the basement auditorium and the
5 entrance way to the auditorium?
6 A It is the same combined information that you
7 would find in the specs, but I dont --
8 Q Okay. Where? Where in the specs?
9 MR. MACHI: Wait. He is not done with
10 his answer.
11 A Okay. Although I dont believe the
12 specification indicated any type of
13 asbestos-containing material.
14 This was a report that was done in
15 1988 --
16 Q Right.
17 A -- as a result of getting ready for the
18 renovation in 1990, 91.
19 Q Okay. So now in the specs, where does
20 it talk about the specifications for the auditorium
21 and the entrance way?
22 A Well, I have to refer to the drawings that I
23 sent you.
24 Q Okay. Do you have them?
25 THE WITNESS: Do you have them?

78
1 MR. MACHI: I do.
2 It will just take me a minute.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record?
4 MS. PLACITELLA: No.
5 MR. MACHI: We will have to clear off
6 the table, I guess.
7 MS. PLACITELLA: You can do it right
8 there in the middle, I guess.
9 Dont open it up yet.
10 Q Okay. Mr. Dias, can you show me what
11 the specs call for the basement auditorium and the
12 entrance way to the auditorium?
13 A Only through referencing a drawing.
14 Q Okay.
15 A Okay.
16 MR. MACHI: Why dont we have it marked
17 beforehand?
18 THE WITNESS: I dont know if you want
19 to mark a long --
20 MR. MACHI: Refer to the one you are
21 going to be referring to.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. The drawing I am
23 referring to is drawing A-8 from the Epple & Seaman
24 design. Its E-p-p-l-e & Seaman, S-e-a-m-a-n.
25 You have to refer to what is called the

79
1 schedule of room finishes, and specifically they
2 call out in the basement area the various different
3 materials.
4 Q Okay. And what are the materials that
5 were called for in the auditorium and the entrance
6 way?
7 A In the auditorium?
8 Q Uh-huh.
9 A Okay. Just bear with me a minute.
10 They viewed a vitreous enamel plaster.
11 Q Do you know the manufacturer that they
12 recommended?
13 A No. Youd have to refer back to the actual
14 specifications --
15 Q Where --
16 A -- so this drawing goes in concert with the
17 material specifications.
18 Q -- where in the specifications does it
19 call for what manufacturer they requested to use for
20 the basement auditorium and entrance way?
21 A It would have been on page 127.
22 MR. MACHI: What Bates number?
23 THE WITNESS: Bates is 35.
24 Q Okay.
25 A And you can see on page 35, they talked to --

80
1 about the Basement Lecture Hall --
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- and it continues as you go through the
4 rest.
5 Q Now, does it indicate in the specs --
6 in the specifications or on the -- in the -- on the
7 drawings that that was the asbestos-containing
8 materials?
9 A I dont believe so.
10 I know on the schedule of values, they
11 just talk to the type of material. I am not aware
12 that anything was noted -- indicated in the
13 specifications for asbestos with regard to the
14 ceiling materials.
15 Q Well, we do know in 1998 it was
16 asbestos-containing, correct?
17 A Yeah. In the report that we did in 1988, some
18 of the plaster was suspected to be
19 asbestos-containing, although my understanding was
20 it was in pretty good shape from an encapsulations
21 point of view.
22 Q Well, it indicates that it was
23 asbestos, correct?
24 A The report indicates that it was asbestos.
25 Q Right.

81
1 The -- what about the first floor
2 lobby, what were the specs for the first floor
3 lobby?
4 A The first floor plaza lobby was a fissured
5 mineral -- no, Im sorry. I am reading that wrong.
6 It was an acoustical plaster.
7 MR. MACHI: Referencing diagram A-8.
8 Is that -- what exhibit number is that?
9 MS. PLACITELLA: We have not given it
10 one yet.
11 I guess it would be P-7.
12 (Sketch marked Exhibit P-7 for
13 identification.)
14 Q Based upon the survey, the Princeton
15 Testing Laboratory Survey in 1998, the lobby was
16 asbestos-containing ceiling tile, correct, sir?
17 A I am not aware that it was asbestos-containing
18 ceiling tile.
19 I am only aware of the fact that some
20 of the materials had asbestos-containing --
21 remember, this was plaster, not ceiling tile.
22 Q Right. It had asbestos-containing
23 acoustical plaster, correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Were there any renovations to Building

82
1 701 from 1979 until 1988?
2 A No, not to my knowledge.
3 Q Now, where was the -- according to the
4 specifications on Bates stamp number 30, metal pan
5 suspension systems were specified.
6 Where in that -- where was that
7 specified?
8 A Again, if I refer to drawing A-8, that was
9 your typical office area detail. It was metal pan
10 acoustical, and that would have covered areas from
11 the second floor up to the top of the building.
12 Q Are there specifications for a specific
13 manufacturer for those metal pan ceiling tiles?
14 A Hum, I dont recall seeing a specific
15 manufacturer --
16 Q I didnt either.
17 A -- so I --
18 Q Are you aware that Celotex made
19 asbestos-containing acoustical metal pan ceiling
20 tiles?
21 A No, I am not.
22 Q Now, regarding the mineral fissured
23 acoustical tile --
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q -- that is detailed on page 34, the

83
1 specifications were either Armstrong or Celotex was
2 considered equal or appropriate, is that correct,
3 sir?
4 A Right.
5 Q So the building was renovated -- the
6 building -- just so that I am clear -- the building
7 was built in 1963, and this information -- the
8 specifications concern 1963 and their -- the
9 asbestos testing from Princeton was done in 1988.
10 Is that true?
11 A Thats correct.
12 Q Now, lets talk about Building 501.
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q That was a three-story office building,
15 and when was that building built?
16 MR. MACHI: I am going to object to
17 this line of questioning. He is here to testify as
18 the corporate representative with the most knowledge
19 of the use of asbestos at the Sandoz building in
20 East Hanover, New Jersey, from 73 to 76.
21 He has already testified that based
22 upon a description provided by Mr. Johnson, that the
23 building was Building 701. Any other building he
24 wasnt in, and there is absolutely no relevance to
25 discuss anything about a building that he didnt

84
1 work in.
2 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, Counselor, Mr.
3 Johnson testified what his recollection was many
4 years later about the number of floors in the
5 building. It is quite common that he could be --
6 are we still on the record?
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes
8 MS. PLACITELLA: -- he said four or
9 five-story buildings, and three-story buildings.
10 This is a three-story. I am entitled to make an
11 inquiry.
12 MR. MACHI: I disagree. We can only go
13 on the best recollection, and I believe he said five
14 or six --
15 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Then we will
16 start with 301 -- I mean 501, and then well talk
17 about 404, which is a four-story building, that had
18 some offices.
19 MR. MACHI: He testified at his
20 deposition that the building that he worked in was
21 strictly an office building of five or six stories.
22 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. So then
23 lets --
24 MR. MACHI: Now, we are not going to go
25 through a fishing expedition --

85
1 MS. PLACITELLA: This is not a fishing
2 expedition.
3 MR. MACHI: It is a fishing expedition.
4 MS. PLACITELLA: I am entitled to have
5 some latitude to ask him questions.
6 MR. MACHI: Not -- I disagree, Rachel.
7 I mean, you are entitled to ask questions that are
8 relevant to this case. It is clear from his
9 testimony, which is all we can go on, because he was
10 there, right?
11 And it is clear from his testimony that
12 he worked in a building that was five or six
13 stories, office building only. He worked in an
14 office room. That is what he testified to. And
15 based upon that, Mr. Dias is able to identify the
16 building that he worked in in 701, so we are going
17 to talk about 701 and not any other building.
18 MS. PLACITELLA: Are you finished now,
19 sir?
20 MR. MACHI: I am finished, but you are
21 not going into that area.
22 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Dias, is 501 the only
23 other building that is a multi-story building, other
24 than 701 that is only offices, that was in existence
25 between 1973 and 1976?

86
1 MR. MACHI: Objection to the question,
2 relevance.
3 Q You can answer.
4 A It is three-story office building.
5 Q Right.
6 But my question is: Am I correct,
7 based upon the quick notes that I took, that it is
8 the only other building -- there were two buildings,
9 that in 1973 to 1976 was a multi-story building that
10 was on the premises that had -- was strictly an
11 office building, is that correct?
12 A There were three buildings that were strictly
13 office buildings.
14 Q Okay. And which ones were they?
15 A If I look at a multi-story building, the only
16 multi-story building we had was Building 701.
17 Q Right.
18 A A three-story building is not classified as a
19 multi-story building.
20 Q Oh, okay. Well, I do because I
21 consider multi more than a couple.
22 So is 501, which was a three-story
23 building, the only other building that was more than
24 two stories --
25 A Yes.

87
1 Q -- that was existing on the premises
2 that was strictly offices?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Okay. So now tell me about 501.
5 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
6 the question.
7 Q Im sorry.
8 When was 501 constructed?
9 A I dont recollect. It was sometime in the
10 late sixties --
11 Q Okay --
12 A -- but I could be wrong.
13 Q -- and where is Building 501 located on
14 the premises?
15 A Where is it located?
16 Q Yes.
17 A How detailed of a description do you need?
18 Q Well, you know what? Strike that. I
19 dont need to know that.
20 It was built in the late sixties, and
21 do you have any knowledge about any -- about the
22 ceilings that were installed in that building in the
23 late sixties?
24 A No, I do not.
25 Q Do you have any knowledge about the --

88
1 about any renovations that occurred in that building
2 in the 1970s?
3 A Not renovations.
4 Q Okay. Do you have -- are you saying
5 that there were none or you have no knowledge?
6 A I have no knowledge.
7 Q Okay. Are there any specifications or
8 contracts regarding Building 501?
9 MR. MACHI: I am -- just a continuing
10 objection to any questions as to any building other
11 than the building that he worked in, which was 701.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: Can you read back my
13 question?
14 THE REPORTER: Sure.
15 (The requested portion was read back by
16 the reporter as follows: Question: Okay. Are
17 there any specifications or contracts regarding
18 Building 501?)
19 A In what time frame?
20 Q Specifications from the 1960s until
21 through the 1970s.
22 A I am not aware of any contracts. There
23 probably are some drawings that are available.
24 Q Are there any -- you said you are not
25 aware of any contracts, is that correct?

89
1 A That is correct.
2 Typically we only keep our project
3 files for a period of seven years --
4 Q And on --
5 A -- so anything that predates that period --
6 that post dates that period, we would not have
7 records of.
8 Q And you dont have any
9 specifications -- or do you have any specifications
10 for that Building 501?
11 A I have no idea. I have no idea.
12 Q Okay. Do you have any -- sir, do you
13 have any contracts at all regarding ceiling work
14 that was done in five -- Building 501 in the 1970s?
15 A No.
16 MR. MACHI: Same objection.
17 Q No.
18 Do you have any contracts in your
19 possession or in the possession of your corporation
20 regarding ceiling work that was done in Building
21 701?
22 A Contracts in 701?
23 Q Yes.
24 A No.
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.

90
1 I am going to make a formal request,
2 Counsel, for any blueprints, drawings,
3 specifications, contracts regarding Building 501,
4 okay?
5 MR. MACHI: You can make the request
6 and send it to me in writing, but I will tell you
7 right now that based upon the information that we
8 know, which is the sworn testimony of Mr. Johnson,
9 the only building that he could have worked in was
10 701, so you will get the response accordingly, and
11 we will take it from there.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. We are going to
13 take a five-minute break.
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the video record
15 at 3:07.
16 (Recess taken.)
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
18 at 3:16 p.m.
19 BY MS. PLACITELLA:
20 Q Okay. Mr. Dias, now we are going to go
21 back to the Answers to Interrogatories that you had
22 verified, if I could find them.
23 MS. PLACITELLA: Do you have them?
24 Oh, youre hiding them on me.
25 Q All right. I am directing your

91
1 attention to number 14. That is on page ten, and it
2 pertains to workers compensation claims.
3 Could you please review your answer?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And did you prepare that answer?
6 A No, I did not.
7 Q I dont really understand it. You
8 verified the answers. Can you explain it to me?
9 A I dont have all of the knowledge and all of
10 the information regarding the information located at
11 the company, so I do have to rely on other people to
12 put together the information.
13 Q Okay. So what does this answer mean?
14 I dont understand it.
15 MR. MACHI: I think the objection is
16 asked and answered. He just indicated he didnt put
17 the answer together. The information for that
18 answer did not -- did not come from him.
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
20 Q Are you aware of how many workers
21 compensation claims have been filed regarding
22 asbestos-related injuries concerning -- we will talk
23 about the Ciba-Geigy plant.
24 A On the Ciba site?
25 Q Yes.

92
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Okay. Do you know who would know that
3 information?
4 A No, I do not.
5 Q You dont even know who would know that
6 information?
7 A No. It would be related to someone in the HR
8 Group or in our legal organization.
9 Q Okay. And you dont have a name?
10 A No, I dont have a name.
11 Q Okay. So you are not aware of any --
12 any specific number of workers compensation cases
13 that have been filed, is that correct?
14 A Excuse me. Could you repeat the question?
15 Q You are not aware of any number of
16 workers compensation claims that have been filed?
17 MR. MACHI: Are you talking about
18 former Ciba-Geigy?
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes, Ciba-Geigy.
20 A No. I am not aware of that at all.
21 Q Okay. Do you know what measures
22 Ciba-Geigy took to protect its own employees from
23 the dangers of asbestos in the 1960s and the 1970s?
24 A No, I am not.
25 MR. MACHI: Objection.

93
1 Q Okay. Are you aware if Ciba-Geigy took
2 any measures to protect its own employees from the
3 danger of asbestos in the 1960s and the 1970s?
4 MR. MACHI: Objection. Again, Mr. Dias
5 is here to testify about the two deposition notices
6 that were served concerning the use of asbestos in
7 the buildings at Ciba-Geigy in Summit and Sandoz in
8 East Hanover job sites between 1973 and 1976, and
9 this goes beyond the scope of the deposition notice.
10 Q Are you aware of a safety manual that
11 was published on July 1st of 1978 by Ciba-Geigy?
12 A No, Im not.
13 Q Okay. So you are -- youre not aware
14 that there was a procedure in place to distribute
15 safety manuals to employees of Ciba-Geigy?
16 MR. MACHI: Objection. Same objection
17 as before. This is outside of the scope of the
18 deposition notice that was served in this matter.
19 Q Could you answer the question?
20 A I am not aware of any information that was
21 available.
22 Q Okay. So youre not -- you dont know
23 if Ciba-Geigy informed any employees about the
24 dangers of asbestos at all in the 1960s or the
25 1970s, is that correct?

94
1 A Again, my knowledge of the Ciba site is back
2 to 1997 when I took over the operations for the site
3 with respect to engineering.
4 Q Okay. Now, you previously testified,
5 and I am quoting you, you rely solely on the
6 contractor to manage his staff, his
7 subcontractors -- his subcontractors to manage the
8 work and create a safe environment for his
9 employees.
10 You had testified about that in the
11 last deposition in the DeMao matter. Does that
12 refresh your memory? Do you recall that at all?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. MACHI: What page are you on?
15 MS. PLACITELLA: I dont know.
16 MR. MACHI: Didnt you just read it?
17 MS. PLACITELLA: Yeah.
18 MR. MACHI: Well, did you read it from
19 the transcript?
20 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes, I did. I
21 translated it -- I wrote it for myself, and the
22 witness has already recollected it, so it is not
23 necessary for you to go to that.
24 Q So is it -- is it the position of your
25 corporation that you rely solely on the contractor

95
1 to manage the staff regarding safe work practices
2 at -- at the facility?
3 A What staff?
4 Q Is it your -- is it your corporations
5 position that you rely upon the contractor to manage
6 his own staff regarding safe practices at your
7 facility?
8 A At the Ciba or the Sandoz?
9 Q Yes.
10 A At both?
11 Q Either one.
12 A At the Sandoz site I could speak to since
13 1997. Our position is that the job -- job is
14 managed by the contractor, and he is solely
15 responsible for the content and the activities that
16 go on with respect to the job site. That includes
17 safety and other -- other activities.
18 Q Okay. And what about at the Ciba-Geigy
19 site?
20 A The Ciba-Geigy site I can only refer to back
21 to 1997 when I was taking over the operations, the
22 same policy was employed.
23 Q Okay. Im going to draw your attention
24 to Answers to Interrogatories No. 34.
25 A 24 or 34?

96
1 Q 34.
2 The question is: Was an employee,
3 agent or representative of your company present at
4 the work site during the manufacture, handling,
5 installation or removal of asbestos-containing
6 products? And if not, would such an employee,
7 agent, or representative of your company visit the
8 worksite while the project was ongoing, and if so,
9 how often?
10 And there is a very long answer, and
11 the bottom is that plaintiff -- it says to the
12 effect that your corporation relies upon the
13 contractor to supervise the work, to ensure it was
14 performed professionally, in a safe manner, and in
15 compliance with regulations.
16 Did I paraphrase that correctly?
17 A Hum...
18 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
19 the question. If you want to read the whole thing,
20 fine, but --
21 MS. PLACITELLA: I am paraphrasing it.
22 I am asking him:
23 Q Did I paraphrase it correctly since it
24 is your answer, sir?
25 A We -- we actually do rely on the contractor to

97
1 supervise according with all of the laws and
2 regulations that are applica -- that are applied at
3 the time that the work is being done.
4 Q Who prepared this answer?
5 A This answer?
6 Q Yes.
7 A I -- I prepared this answer.
8 Q Okay. So has that -- that position or
9 the fact that you relied upon the contractor for
10 safe practices has been in effect at Ciba-Geigy for
11 what period of time?
12 A I can only respond to going back to 1997 at
13 the Ciba-Geigy site.
14 Q Well, Im confused because Mr. DeFonzo
15 testified that there was a safety manual that -- and
16 the safety manual specifically stated that safety
17 procedures applied to any contractor or
18 subcontractor working on the Ciba-Geigy
19 pharmaceutical division site, and the Ciba-Geigy
20 employee is responsible for the contractor will
21 ensure that the procedure is complied with.
22 Were you aware of that, sir?
23 A No, I was not.
24 Q So you are not even aware that there
25 was a safety manual back in 1978 from Ciba-Geigy?

98
1 A No. When I took over the division in 1997, no
2 such manual did exist.
3 Q So in 1978, Ciba-Geigy had a position
4 that it had to -- that it was responsible to the
5 contractors to ensure that safety procedures were in
6 place, and in 1997 they no longer had the same
7 policy?
8 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
9 the question.
10 A What I indicated was the fact that we did not
11 have that -- that book available to us in 1997.
12 Q So do you know why the policy of
13 Ciba-Geigy changed regarding contractors --
14 A I --
15 Q -- from 1978 to the present -- to 1997?
16 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
17 the question.
18 A I-- I am not aware of anything that would have
19 changed.
20 I could tell you typically what I would
21 know about situations like that, and it probably
22 wasnt contractor safety policies. It was most
23 likely procedures for the contractor to work on
24 site.
25 Q Okay. Lets see if we can find it.

99
1 I am going to show you --
2 MS. PLACITELLA: What number should
3 this be?
4 THE REPORTER: P-8.
5 MS. PLACITELLA: P-8.
6 (Deposition of Anthony M. DeFonzo
7 marked Exhibit P-8 for identification.)
8 Q I am going to show you 269 of the
9 transcript, and I would like you to review it.
10 A Whose transcript?
11 Q And this is Mr. DeFonzo. It is dated,
12 and I think its 2003.
13 A What specific area are you asking me to read?
14 Q The highlighted section.
15 MR. MACHI: Youre asking him to read
16 the question?
17 Q Read the highlighted questions and
18 answers.
19 A It says: Question --
20 Q You dont have to read it out loud.
21 A Oh, okay.
22 MR. MACHI: I am going to object to the
23 extent that you are asking Mr. Dias to read excerpts
24 from various pages of the deposition testimony as
25 opposed to the entire transcript, and we dont know

100
1 what you highlighted.
2 There is information highlighted at the
3 top of one page and the bottom of three pages later
4 that obviously is not in response to the question
5 that was asked at the top of the prior page, so I am
6 not quite sure what you were asking him to review.
7 MS. PLACITELLA: Thank you.
8 Mr. Machi, you are free to give Mr.
9 Dias a copy of the transcript, so he could become
10 familiar with the practices.
11 MR. MACHI: Again, the deposition
12 notice that you had served was for a corporate
13 representative to testify about the uses of asbestos
14 in the buildings where the plaintiff worked when he
15 worked there. That is what he is here to testify
16 about today. That was your deposition notice.
17 Q I want to show you something else, too,
18 Im sorry.
19 Okay. Now, this deposition of Mr.
20 DeFonzo, this is day one of his deposition. I was
21 referring you to day two. But if you look on pages
22 176 and 177, he said that -- Mr. DeFonzo, who was
23 the project engineer at Ciba-Geigy from 1965 to 1969
24 and then the manager of maintenance from 1969 to
25 1995 stated: Question -- I mean -- the answer is:

101
1 I am responsible to communicate the
2 policy of the company with regard to safety to the
3 contractor. This was done by means of a safety
4 manual that was issued to each contractor.
5 Did you have safety meetings?
6 I have meetings with the contractors.
7 Were you aware of that, sir?
8 A I wasnt aware of this.
9 Q Okay. So apparently in -- in 1978,
10 based upon the safety manual that we discussed
11 previously, contractors were informed regarding
12 safety practices.
13 Now, do you have any reason --
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q -- do you know why if Ciba-Geigy based
16 upon your Answers to Interrogatories was made aware
17 of the dangers of asbestos in 1973, that there was a
18 five-year gap, and contractors and employees were
19 not made aware of the dangers of asbestos until
20 apparently 1978?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
22 the question. You are presupposing facts that are
23 not in evidence, and I am not quite sure where you
24 are getting it from, number one.
25 Number two: Again, this is outside of

102
1 the scope of the deposition notices for which he is
2 being produced.
3 Q Do you know the answer to the question,
4 sir?
5 A Do me a favor. Could you please repeat the
6 question again?
7 Q Okay. Based upon your Answers to
8 Interrogatories, Ciba-Geigy was made aware of the
9 dangers of asbestos in 1973. In 1978 they -- they
10 prepared a safety manual and tell contractors and
11 employees about the dangers of asbestos.
12 Why is there a five-year gap?
13 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
14 the question.
15 Where does it say what you just said?
16 A I -- I dont see where there was a five-year
17 gap, and I dont see that they informed the
18 employees -- from this deposition where they
19 informed the employees of the hazards of asbestos.
20 All I am reading here is that they had
21 a manual that they handed to the contractors with no
22 content of what was in that manual, and then they
23 said they had meetings with contractors.
24 It is not necessarily inferred from
25 what I am reading that in fact they had meetings

103
1 with the contractors with regard to safety.
2 Q Okay. Lets backtrack then.
3 What we discussed before in this
4 deposition: Well, 1978 is the date of the doc --
5 Question: Well, 1978 is the date of
6 the document, so at least by 1978, Ciba finally had
7 safety procedures in place with respect to asbestos,
8 my question is.
9 And Mr. Machi, who was present at that
10 deposition objected, and then the question is:
11 How did you distribute this document
12 to the workers?
13 Answer: Okay.
14 The document was distributed to
15 supervisory personnel in meetings in conjunction
16 with the Safety Department. The supervisory
17 personnel subsequently met with hourly personnel to
18 discuss the impact and the implementation of the
19 procedure.
20 Were you aware of that, sir?
21 MR. MACHI: Objection to the question.
22 Again, this is outside of the scope of the area that
23 Mr. Dias is here to testify about today.
24 He was produced to testify about the
25 uses of asbestos in the buildings that Mr. Johnson

104
1 worked in at the Summit site and at the East Hanover
2 site.
3 I am not going to permit this line of
4 questioning any further. I gave you some latitude,
5 but this is outside of the scope of the deposition
6 notice.
7 Q The -- did you answer my question, sir?
8 A No, I did not. I dont even know what you are
9 referring to.
10 Q Okay. Apparently there was a safety
11 manual, and I dont -- and it was given to
12 employees, and it was given to subcontractors in
13 1978.
14 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
15 the question -- to any questions on this area. This
16 is outside of the scope of the deposition notice
17 that was served on Mr. Dias to testify to today.
18 He is not going to be testifying about
19 any areas, other than the areas designated in the
20 deposition notice that he is here for today, which
21 is two out of the three.
22 Q So you dont know, as far as your
23 position is, that Ciba-Geigy did not discuss safety
24 practices with contractors. Is that correct?
25 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of

105
1 the question.
2 Dont answer the question.
3 Now, youre being -- now, it is
4 harassing. He is not here to testify about those
5 areas, and you know that.
6 MS. PLACITELLA: He -- he spoke about
7 it in his Answers to Interrogatories.
8 MR. MACHI: These are not his Answers
9 to Interrogatories.
10 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. We will go over
11 the Answers to Interrogatories then.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Theres a few
13 minutes left on the tape.
14 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Well stop
15 right now.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
17 3:37.
18 (Recess taken.)
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record
20 at 3:38.
21 MS. PLACITELLA: Im sorry.
22 Q Do you have a copy of P-2 for
23 identification, which is the Answers to
24 Interrogatories that you verified?
25 A Yes.

106
1 Q Okay. Now, lets talk about number
2 six. Answer -- question number six, and that
3 question pertains to:
4 Has this defendant or its
5 predecessors, subsidiaries or parent corporations
6 engaged in the mining, sale and distribution of
7 asbestos-containing products? If so, state the name
8 of each such entity, describe the nature of the
9 involvement that each entity has or has had in the
10 mining, distribution or sale of these products and
11 materials, and set forth the inclusive dates each
12 was involved in each aspect of this business.
13 So now question number six regarding
14 this answer, did you prepare this answer, sir?
15 A No, I did not.
16 Q Who did?
17 A It was under the advice of counsel how that
18 was put together.
19 Q I need a name.
20 A I dont have that name.
21 Q Was that Mr. Machi? Did he prepare the
22 answer?
23 MR. MACHI: Objection. Dont answer
24 the question. Its attorney/client privilege.
25 Q Okay. So it is the attorney that

107
1 answered that question?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection. That
3 mischaracterizes it. I didnt provide an answer --
4 MS. PLACITELLA: He said counsel, so
5 I put attorney.
6 Q Okay. Number seven. Seven is: When
7 did this defendant first become aware of the
8 potential hazards to human health caused by
9 exposure to asbestos, and this is a standard
10 question that is asked in interrogatories in every
11 single asbestos litigation across the state, and I
12 am sure across the country as well.
13 Did you prepare this answer, sir?
14 MR. MACHI: Objection, asked and
15 answered.
16 Again, he is not going to testify about
17 anything with regard to historical knowledge of the
18 dangers of asbestos. Hes not here for that
19 purpose.
20 Q Who -- who prepared that answer, sir?
21 MR. MACHI: I object.
22 Q Mr. Dias --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- who prepared the answer to number
25 seven?

108
1 A Part of it was prepared by me.
2 Q Okay. What part was prepared by you?
3 A With the fact that I do not have knowledge in
4 1973 of what was going on.
5 Q Okay. And what part that says that in
6 1973, Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy were aware of the
7 potential health hazards of asbestos, who prepared
8 that part of the answer?
9 A That was prepared by counsel.
10 Q Okay. Attorney. And Im going to
11 assume it is a New Jersey attorney --
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q -- because these are New Jersey Answers
14 to Interrogatories, okay.
15 Now, number eight regarding all the --
16 all the associations that the defendant or its
17 predecessors, subsidiaries, or parent corporations
18 have ever been a member of, who prepared that
19 answer?
20 MR. MACHI: Objection. Again, he is
21 not here to testify about anything other than the
22 two deposition notices that were served.
23 Q Who -- who prepared that answer, sir?
24 A On this?
25 Q Uh-huh.

109
1 A Part of this was me, okay --
2 Q Okay. And what part is you?
3 A -- with regard -- well, with regard to that I
4 have no knowledge of any of the operations.
5 The balance on whether or not other
6 people within the company, Im not aware of that.
7 Q So you dont know who prepared this
8 answer?
9 A No. This again would have been prepared by
10 counsel.
11 Q New Jersey attorney, okay.
12 Regarding number 13, that talks about
13 whether there were any -- whether your company ever
14 performed any studies or tests, or has your company
15 participated in possession of any studies done by
16 others concerning the health effects of the
17 inhalation of asbestos dust or fibers.
18 MR. MACHI: Same objection. This goes
19 beyond the scope of the deposition notices.
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Sir, who prepared that answer?
22 A This would have been prepared by counsel.
23 Q New Jersey attorney.
24 Number 14, workers compensation, were
25 you aware, sir, that -- that the New Jersey court --

110
1 the New Jersey judge and court that deals with
2 asbestos litigation has stated that plaintiffs have
3 a right to this information?
4 MR. MACHI: Objection. This goes way
5 beyond the scope of the deposition notices.
6 Dont even answer that question.
7 Q Who prepared this answer, sir?
8 A To question 14?
9 Q Yes.
10 A On the workers comp -- this was provided as
11 part of the discussions that we had with respect to
12 counsel.
13 Q I didnt understand your answer.
14 Who -- who wrote the answer to that
15 question?
16 A This question?
17 Q 14.
18 A Counsel.
19 Q Counsel, New Jersey attorney.
20 Who prepared the answer to 21, thats
21 State your contention as to the identity of the
22 place or location within defendants worksite/
23 premises that plaintiffs exposure allegedly
24 occurred.
25 A I actually put that answer together.

111
1 Q Okay. And how did you make that
2 determination, that it was Building C --
3 MR. MACHI: Can you break it down?
4 MS. PLACITELLA: -- let me finish,
5 please, Counsel.
6 MR. MACHI: Im sorry.
7 Q -- that it was Building C at the
8 Ciba-Geigy, Summit site?
9 A Just about the Ciba site, correct?
10 Q I am asking first about the Ciba site.
11 A Okay.
12 When I reviewed Mr. Johnsons
13 deposition, he indicated that he worked in a
14 building in the mid seventies, and that the building
15 was adjacent to a tower, a clock tower --
16 Q Right.
17 A -- that is the location of Building C.
18 And then when I went through the
19 information, I found information about the
20 renovation to that building, which took place in
21 199 -- 1967, as I believe, and that is how I
22 identified that building. Because of the fact that
23 he had in fact said he was working in the mid
24 seventies, and he was working in a laboratory
25 building, I find it hard that he would in fact have

112
1 been exposed to asbestos fibers because the building
2 was renovated just recently --
3 Q Wait a second, whoa, whoa, whoa,
4 whoa --
5 A -- in 1967.
6 Q -- I just asked you, how did you come
7 across building --
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q -- and I didnt understand what you
10 just said.
11 A Do you want me to repeat it?
12 Q My question was: How did you come --
13 decide that Building C was the information that you
14 should provide to counsel?
15 A Like I indicated, Building C according to
16 Mister -- excuse me -- according to Mr. Johnsons
17 testimony, he indicated that he worked in a building
18 doing a laboratory renovation. That building was
19 located adjacent to a clock tower. Building C is
20 the only building located directly to the clock
21 tower at the Summit site.
22 Q Okay. Now, what about the Sandoz
23 building --
24 A The Sandoz --
25 Q -- Building 701, how did you come to

113
1 give that information to counsel?
2 MR. MACHI: Objection, asked and
3 answered, but you can answer it again.
4 A The -- again, in reviewing the deposition of
5 Mr. Johnson, he indicated that he worked in a five
6 to six-story building. He was doing some ceiling
7 renovation in a small office, and the only tall
8 building that we have that would have five or six
9 stories was 701.
10 Q Regarding 30 -- question number 34 that
11 we had already touched on, and that had to do with:
12 Was an employee, agent, or representative of your
13 company present at defendants worksite/premises
14 during the manufacture, handling, installation or
15 removal of asbestos-containing products? If not,
16 would an employee, agent, or representative of your
17 company visit the work site while the project was
18 ongoing, and if so, how often?
19 Who prepared this answer, sir?
20 A I prepared this answer.
21 Q Okay. So you prepared this answer that
22 says that -- let me just backtrack.
23 Sandoz or Ciba-Geigy -- Sandoz and
24 Ciba-Geigy would have relied upon Claremont and its
25 employees, including the plaintiff based upon his

114
1 personal knowledge, to conduct and/or supervise the
2 work to ensure it was performed professionally, in a
3 safe manner, and in compliance with all governmental
4 laws, rules and regulations, as well as contractual
5 requirements, in place at that time.
6 Did you write those answers yourself,
7 sir?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You wrote out the entire thing?
10 A Not -- not the entire top part.
11 I wrote out the section with regard to
12 safe management. That has been our procedure since
13 Ive come on board with the company in 1979. It was
14 the exact same procedure that was in place in Summit
15 when I took over in 1997, and it is currently the
16 procedure that we have. In fact, it is noted in our
17 contract under Artible 17, 17.1 as the paragraph on
18 how we manage contractors and how they have to deal
19 with the operation of the job site safety.
20 Q But this answer pertains to when the
21 plaintiff worked there, which would be 73. How do
22 you --
23 A Right.
24 Q -- did you write that answer based upon
25 the procedure that was in place in 1973 at

115
1 Ciba-Geigy?
2 A It is based on my knowledge of the site.
3 Q No. You didnt answer my -- can you
4 answer my question?
5 MR. MACHI: Well, he is answering the
6 question.
7 Q Based upon -- go ahead, sir.
8 A Its based upon my knowledge of how things
9 were operational both at the Ciba-Geigy site and the
10 Sandoz site. In the Sandoz site, it goes back to
11 1990 -- 1979.
12 At the -- at the Ciba-Geigy site, my
13 knowledge goes back to 1997 --
14 Q Right, but you --
15 A -- there is no -- there is no reason
16 for me to believe that the policy had changed over
17 the years.
18 With my knowledge of how projects were
19 managed over at the Ciba site when I took over, they
20 are almost identical to the operations in the Sandoz
21 site. And when I came in 1979, at the Sandoz site,
22 they had already been well in place.
23 Q But what about the testimony of Mr.
24 DeFonzo, and that talks about this safety manual
25 that was -- that was in place and given to

116
1 contractors in 1979 or 1978?
2 A Again, I dont know what the content of the
3 manual was. In 1997, that did not exist --
4 Q Right.
5 A -- so I am not familiar with this -- this
6 safety manual.
7 Again, if anything, it was probably a
8 policy or procedure.
9 As I recall from the sections that you
10 asked me to read, Mr. DeFonzo did clarify it and say
11 it was not necessarily procedures as it was policy,
12 and that is typical of what happens on these larger
13 sites when contractors have to follow some basic
14 rules.
15 Q Now, you -- you prepared this answer --
16 Im still not clear. You prepared this answer based
17 upon your knowledge of Ciba-Geigy from 1997 on,
18 correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Because you have no knowledge about
21 what happened in 1973 at Ciba-Geigy --
22 A I have no knowledge --
23 Q -- at Ciba-Geigy, correct?
24 A -- excuse me?
25 Q You have no knowledge about the prac --

117
1 the safety practices that were in place in 1973 at
2 Ciba-Geigy based upon your prior testimony today,
3 correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Okay. So then this answer when you
6 talked about Claremont and the plaintiff, it is not
7 based upon the -- the plaintiff in 1973, correct?
8 A It is based on the procedures that I saw were
9 in place when I took over the operation.
10 Q In 1997?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Okay. So you dont know --
13 MR. MACHI: I dont think he finished
14 his answer, and then you went on to another
15 question.
16 Did you finish your answer?
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 Q Okay. So just to reiterate, answer 34
19 was prepared by yourself based upon your knowledge
20 of practices and procedures from -- that were in
21 place at Ciba-Geigy in 1997 --
22 MR. MACHI: Objection, mischaracterizes
23 his testimony. He explained what --
24 Q -- is that correct?
25 A If I can clarify.

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1 Q Go ahead.
2 A Okay. It was based on my knowledge of what
3 was in place in 1997, which also includes some of
4 the historical work that they done. It was
5 identical to the way work was handled at the --
6 Q Right. but you dont know about that
7 safety manual in 1978?
8 A It did not exist in 1997.
9 Q Right.
10 So just to -- I still dont understand.
11 This answer was based on your personal knowledge --
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q -- of Ciba-Geigy in 1997?
14 A This answer was based on my personal knowledge
15 and how things were operated when I got there
16 before.
17 Q How things were operated at the
18 Sandoz --
19 A The Ciba --
20 Q -- at Sandoz from 1979 on?
21 A -- which related to projects and the
22 management of contractors.
23 There was no requirement for me to
24 change any of the process. It was the exact same
25 process that existed in East Hanover back to 1979.

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1 Q Okay. But lets talk about Ciba-Geigy.
2 A Uh-huh.
3 Q When did your personal knowledge begin
4 at Ciba-Geigy?
5 A 1997.
6 Q Okay. And you have no knowledge about
7 the safety manual, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q You dont even have a copy of it,
10 correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q I bet your counsel has a copy of it.
13 MS. PLACITELLA: Do you have a copy of
14 it, Counsel?
15 MR. MACHI: Objection. First of all, I
16 am not here to answer questions. I am here to
17 represent the witness --
18 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
19 MR. MACHI: -- on the defense.
20 However --
21 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, well get that
22 when we go -- when we go through the answers,
23 Counsel, to the answers that you prepared in the
24 interrogatories --
25 MR. MACHI: I object to that.

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1 MS. PLACITELLA: -- 34, and now we are
2 doing number 39.
3 Q Question No. 39: Were you made aware
4 of the federal, state and local safety regulations
5 which govern -- which governed the manufacturing,
6 handling, installation or removal of asbestos at
7 defendants worksite/premises? If so, please
8 specify the regulations you were aware of and whose
9 job it was to insure the regulations were adhered
10 to.
11 Who prepared the answer to number 39?
12 MR. MACHI: Same objection as before,
13 outside of the scope of what he is here to testify
14 to.
15 You can answer.
16 A This would have been put together by counsel.
17 Q Number 40: Please describe each and
18 every measure taken by your company to ensure that
19 any mandatory safety regulations were being followed
20 by the contractors and/or workers on or at
21 defendants worksite/premises during the
22 manufacture, handling, installation or removal of
23 asbestos-containing products.
24 Who prepared this answer, sir?
25 MR. MACHI: Same objection.

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1 Q You can answer.
2 A This would have been me.
3 Q You, okay.
4 A Uh-huh.
5 Q Now, do you know what measure was taken
6 by -- well start with Ciba-Geigy -- do you know
7 what measure was taken by Ciba-Geigy to ensure that
8 any mandatory -- mandatory safety regulations were
9 being followed by the contractors and/or workers on
10 or at Ciba-Geigys work site during the handling and
11 removal, installation of asbestos-containing
12 products from -- during the 1970s?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Okay. Do you know who would know the
15 answer to that question?
16 A No. Im not aware of anybody other than
17 myself that has some knowledge with regard to that
18 site.
19 Q Okay. Number 41: Please describe in
20 detail all measures, which you took to ensure the
21 safety of contractors and workers on defendants
22 worksite/premises during the manufacture, handling,
23 installation or removal of asbestos-containing
24 products.
25 Who prepared the answer to number 41,

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1 sir?
2 MR. MACHI: Same objection. It goes
3 beyond the scope of the deposition notices.
4 A That would have been me again.
5 Q Okay. Tell me what measures were taken
6 to ensure the safety of contractors and workers on
7 the defendants work site premises during the 1970s
8 concerning asbestos products.
9 A Ah, what I refer to here is the way we handle
10 projects with respect to both sites.
11 Q Right. And then we could belabor the
12 same issue that we did in 34, meaning that your
13 knowledge of Ciba-Geigy began in 1997, and your
14 knowledge at Sandoz begins in 1979, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Okay. And then 43 talks about: Did
17 your company..., employees, agents, or
18 representatives ever attempt to determine or measure
19 the levels of asbestos that was present in the work
20 environment.
21 Who prepared the answer to number 43,
22 sir?
23 MR. MACHI: Same objection as
24 previously stated.
25 Q You can answer the question.

123
1 A Uh-huh.
2 Some of this was myself, and other was
3 provided by counsel.
4 Q Which part did you prepare yourself?
5 A I prepared myself with regard to Building 701.
6 Q Right. That is the same issue that we
7 would discuss that we did in 34 and also, was it 42,
8 which is your personal knowledge regarding --
9 concerning any measuring of dust levels of asbestos
10 for Ciba-Geigy begins in 1997, correct?
11 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
12 the question.
13 A Want to repeat the question?
14 Q Your knowledge concerning whether
15 any -- there was any measure, any steps taken to
16 measure dust levels at Ciba-Geigy begins in 1997,
17 correct?
18 A 1997.
19 MR. MACHI: Objection to the form of
20 the question.
21 Q Have you ever reviewed any documents
22 concerning that?
23 A On the Ciba site?
24 Q Yes.
25 MR. MACHI: Objection.

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1 A I have not reviewed any documents.
2 Q Okay. Can you explain to me how you
3 came about preparing these answers and signing the
4 verification?
5 How did it occur?
6 Were you given these questions, and did
7 you like hand write the answers?
8 A Ah, I -- these answers were I worked with
9 counsel, based on the information that I obtained,
10 there were areas of expertise that I have no
11 knowledge of, and I relied strictly on counsel to
12 contact other people to see if any other additional
13 knowledge was available.
14 Q I didnt hear that last part.
15 A If any -- any information was available.
16 Q Who did you ask to see if any
17 information was available?
18 A I had talked with counsel, because there are
19 certain things in this, and as we indicated in the
20 verification, we used a number of people to collect
21 the information.
22 My area of expertise was in how the
23 site and site operations were done with regard to
24 the asbestos and any of the work that happened
25 around the asbestos, to my knowledge basis, 79 and

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1 97 in Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy respectively.
2 Q And how was the information obtained
3 from answers six, seven, eight, 13, 14, 21, 34 and
4 39 that we had discussed -- not 30 -- not 21 -- but
5 the ones that you said were prepared by a New Jersey
6 attorney or by counsel --
7 A Right.
8 Q -- how did you receive those answers?
9 Did you receive the question and answer
10 already printed up?
11 A I -- I believe so, yes.
12 Q And were you asked to sign it after it
13 was all printed up?
14 A Yeah. I was asked to verify the information
15 in the document. Some of the information Im not a
16 hundred percent sure of. I did rely on counsel,
17 particularly when you look at things like where the
18 company was -- was incorporated and things like
19 that.
20 Also, Im not an expert on the hazards
21 of asbestos. I have virtually no knowledge
22 personally of what the hazards are.
23 My knowledge of asbestos and -- and the
24 hazards of asbestos are related strictly to the fact
25 that when the regulations changed, and OSHA became a

126
1 critical component in order to comply with the
2 exposure to asbestos is when I became personally
3 aware of the fact that we have to start doing
4 things.
5 As far as the actual health hazards and
6 things like that, Im not an expert.
7 Q Right. Youre not an expert. And in
8 fact, you were not even made aware by counsel or in
9 preparation for todays deposition about the 1958
10 regulations concerning asbestos levels, correct?
11 MR. MACHI: Objection, objection.
12 Dont answer. That question goes beyond the scope
13 of what the deposition notices for which he was
14 produced.
15 There was no need to make him aware of
16 anything other than what he is here to testify
17 about, which is about the uses of asbestos in the
18 buildings.
19 MS. PLACITELLA: That is all I have at
20 this time.
21 I want to make a statement on the
22 record right now, not of this witness, but of Mr.
23 Machi.
24 Do you have any -- the name of any
25 individual who will -- who you can -- since you

127
1 refused to permit this witness to testify regarding
2 P-1, which is the notice concerning the dangers
3 of -- the historical dangers of asbestos, are you --
4 do you have another witness who you will provide?
5 MR. MACHI: Talking about P-1-C?
6 MS. PLACITELLA: Yes.
7 MR. MACHI: At present, I dont have
8 anybody available to testify on that area, but I
9 will look.
10 MS. PLACITELLA: And youve been given
11 this deposition notice in October -- on October
12 21st, 2009 --
13 MR. MACHI: Correct.
14 MS. PLACITELLA: -- and you refused to
15 permit this witness to answer any questions
16 concerning the historical dangers of asbestos, even
17 though this witness has verified Answers to
18 Interrogatories, which apparently he did not prepare
19 and has no knowledge of concerning several areas,
20 including the historical nature of -- historical
21 dangers of asbestos, so I want to state that for the
22 record, and I will make my motions accordingly.
23 Thank you.
24 MR. MACHI: Wait. Let me finish. To
25 make sure the verification is clear, that the

128
1 interrogatory answers were prepared with the
2 assistance of counsel. They are not necessarily
3 based upon the personal knowledge --
4 MS. PLACITELLA: I understand --
5 MR. MACHI: -- of Mr. Dias --
6 MS. PLACITELLA: -- I understand that.
7 MR. MACHI: -- I dont think there is
8 anybody who could sign a verification and say I have
9 personal knowledge or --
10 MS. PLACITELLA: You dont have to have
11 personal knowledge, Counselor, and you and I both
12 know, as does everybody else in this court -- in
13 this deposition, that you have an obligation to
14 inform the witness of the information that your
15 company had and you had, but we will discuss that
16 off the record at another time.
17 Thank you.
18 The deposition is done.
19 MR. MACHI: Ah, I dont know that it is
20 done.
21 Does anybody have any questions?
22 Lets take about a two-minute break.
23 Ill be right back.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Are you going to
25 continue this deposition?

129
1 MR. MACHI: I might, yes.
2 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Go off the video
4 record at 4:06 p.m.
5 (Recess taken.)
6 MR. MACHI: I do not have any
7 questions, so unless anybody has questions, I think
8 we are done for the day.
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Lets go back on the
10 record for a moment.
11 This concludes the video deposition on
12 December 16th of Mr. Dias.
13 The time is now 4:13 p.m.
14 That is all.
15 (The deposition concluded at 4:13 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, a Certified Court
4 Reporter, Certified Realtime Court Reporter, and
5 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, do hereby
6 certify that prior to the commencement of the
7 examination, the witness, RANDAL DIAS, was duly
8 sworn by me to testify the truth, the whole truth,
9 and nothing but the truth.
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing
11 is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony
12 as taken stenographically by and before me at the
13 time, place and date hereinbefore set forth.
14 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
15 a relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel to
16 any of the parties to this action, and that I am
17 neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or
18 counsel, and that I am not financially interested in
19 the action.
20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
21 PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, C.C.R. XI01333 C.R.C.R. 30XR15300
Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
22 My commission expires 11/5/2010.
This transcript was prepared in accordance with
23 NJAC 13:43-5.9.
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