Mesothelioma Deposition

SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION:MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. MID-L-2068-06 AS
3
ERNEST HORVATH, individually and VIDEOTAPE
4 as Executor of the Estate of his DEPOSITION UPON
Wife, FRANCES HORVATH, ORAL EXAMINATION
5 OF
Plaintiff, EDWARD WIRKOWSKI
6
vs.
7
CHEVRON USA, INC., et al.,
8
Defendants.
9
10
11 T R A N S C R I P T of the videotaped deposition
12 of the witness, called for Oral Examination in the
13 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken
14 pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and
15 Procedure by and before PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, a Notary
16 Public, Certified Court Reporter and Certified Realtime
17 Court Reporter of the State of New Jersey, at the
18 offices of McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER,
19 LLP, 1300 Mount Kemble Avenue, Morristown, New Jersey,
20 on June 18, 2009, commencing at approximately 10:02 a.m.
21
22
23 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC.
Certified Court Reporters & Videographers
24 7 Elm Street
Westfield, New Jersey 07090
25 Phone: (908) 789-2000 Fax: (908) 789-2007
0002
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.
3 127 Maple Avenue
4 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
5 (732) 747-9003
6 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ.
7 Attorneys for Plaintiff
8
9 McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP
10 1300 Mount Kemble Avenue
11 P.O. Box 2075
12 Morristown, New Jersey 07962
13 (973) 993-8100
14 BY: JOSEPH P. LA SALA, ESQ.
15 Attorneys for Defendant, Chevron USA
16
17 A L S O P R E S E N T:
18
19 Justin Placitella
20
21 Gerard J. Genna, Certified Legal Videographer
22 New Jersey Certified Legal Videography
23 (609) 577-3253
24
25
0003
1 I N D E X
2
3 WITNESS PAGE
4
5 EDWARD WIRKOWSKI
6 Direct by Mr. Placitella 4
7
8 E X H I B I T S
9
10 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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12 P-1 Deposition notice 4
13 P-2 California 1936 Regulations 4
14 P-3 Dust Producing Operations 86
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0004
1 (Deposition notice marked Exhibit P-1
2 for identification.)
3 (California 1936 Regulations marked
4 Exhibit P-2 for identification.)
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We are now on
6 the record in the matter of Ernest Horvath,
7 individually and as Executor of the Estate of his
8 Wife, Frances Horvath, versus Chevron USA, Inc., et
9 al.
10 Todays date is June 18th, 2009. The
11 time is approximately 10:02 a.m.
12 This is Docket No. MID-L-2068-06 AS.
13 This is a videotaped deposition of Edward Wirkowski.
14 Its being taken at McElroy, Deutsch, Mulvaney &
15 Carpenter, Morristown, New Jersey.
16 I am the camera operator. My name is
17 Gerard Genna from New Jersey Certified Legal
18 Videography.
19 The court reporter is Phyllis Lewis
20 from Brody Deposition.
21 The appearances will be noted in the
22 transcript.
23 Phyllis, please administer the oath.
24 THE REPORTER: Could you raise your
25 right hand, please.
0005
1 Do you solemnly swear that the
2 testimony which you are about to give will be the
3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
4 so help you God?
5 MR. WIRKOWSKI: I do.
6 E D W A R D W I R K O W S K I, 21 Oak Grove Lane,
7 Edison, New Jersey 08820, having been duly sworn,
8 testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q Good morning, Mr. Wirkowski. We met
12 before. How are you?
13 A Fine, thanks.
14 Q Thank you for braving the weather.
15 You are here to have your deposition
16 taken today. Do you understand that?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q Youve had your deposition taken
19 before, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q In asbestos cases --
22 A Yes.
23 Q -- on behalf of Chevron?
24 A Ah, I believe it was on one case.
25 Q You were deposed in asbestos on two
0006
1 prior occasions, am I correct?
2 A A total of two.
3 Q Right. And you are here today as a
4 representative of Chevron?
5 MR. LA SALA: No.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Hes not?
7 MR. LA SALA: No.
8 Q So you didnt have any conversations --
9 did you have any conversations with Mr. LaSala in
10 preparation for today?
11 A Yes. We met on two occasions.
12 Q Okay. And what did you talk about?
13 A He told me briefly what the -- what the case
14 was about.
15 Q Okay. And what was that?
16 A That one Ernie Horvath, who was employed by
17 Chevron, was suing Chevron because his wife died of
18 cancer --
19 Q Uh-huh.
20 A -- and he related it to her washing his
21 clothes.
22 Q What else did you talk about?
23 A Ah, in general, we -- he mentioned that they
24 had -- I was -- he referred to two depositions that
25 I had previously been on.
0007
1 Q Uh-huh. And did you review any
2 materials in preparation for today?
3 A I reviewed the transcripts of those two.
4 Q Okay. So you know the rules for
5 depositions, you have been through it before?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And in addition to the depositions, did
8 you review any other material?
9 A None that I recall.
10 Q Okay. And what is your understanding
11 of your role in this case?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 You can answer.
14 A Just to -- as a witness to what occurred at
15 Chevron.
16 Q Do you have an understanding about what
17 you are going to be asked to talk about, if you are
18 called to testify, what the purpose of your role is?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to the form.
20 A Well, I am not sure what you are going to ask
21 me. If I knew that -- I dont know the answer to
22 that question.
23 Q Well, I didnt list you as a witness.
24 Chevron listed you as a witness, so I am trying to
25 understand if you understand why you were listed.
0008
1 That is all.
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 You listed him in your answers as well.
4 A Well, I was --
5 MR. PLACITELLA: Not in my pretrial.
6 A -- I was contacted because I knew the plant
7 and the person, and Im still alive as most of the
8 people that are no longer in that situation.
9 Q Now, I understand you knew Ernie
10 Horvath personally, true?
11 A Well, I knew him personally as an employee of
12 Chevron.
13 Q Right.
14 A Yes.
15 Q My research has indicated that you
16 dont think very much of him. Is that true?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to the form.
18 A I dont think that would be the way I would
19 describe it.
20 Q Well, whats your -- have you ever told
21 anybody that you dont like him?
22 A No.
23 Q What is your relationship with him?
24 A Today, none.
25 During the employment, he was an
0009
1 employee that worked under the department that I was
2 responsible for.
3 Q And did you ever have any issues with
4 him while he worked for you?
5 A None that I remember.
6 Q Okay. So my understanding is incorrect
7 then --
8 MR. LA SALA: Object --
9 Q -- that you have no issue with Ernie
10 Horvath himself --
11 MR. LA SALA: -- object to form.
12 Q -- you think he is a good guy?
13 A You know, we had three kinds of employees. We
14 had those that were considered top rank, and we had
15 those that were troublemakers, and you had those
16 that were an average kind of employee, and I would
17 put Ernie in the middle category.
18 Q So he was a troublemaker?
19 A No.
20 Q What was he, average?
21 A Average.
22 Q Okay. Did he always perform his job as
23 requested?
24 A He did what was required, but he didnt go out
25 of his way to do anything more than what was
0010
1 required.
2 Q Okay. Did he ever receive any kind of
3 admo -- admonition for not doing his job properly?
4 A Not that Im aware of.
5 Q The -- you currently have a home in
6 Edison, New Jersey?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you still have a home in Barnegat
9 Light?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And do you also have a home in Naples,
12 Florida?
13 A I have a condo there.
14 Q Okay. Anything else?
15 A No.
16 Q Can you give me the benefit of your
17 education?
18 A I received a BS in mechanical engineering at
19 what was then called Newark College of Engineering
20 in -- in 1944.
21 Q Okay. Am I correct that you began
22 working at Chevron in July 1947?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q And you stayed there continuously until
25 1986?
0011
1 A Thats correct.
2 Q Okay. And that was the facility
3 located at 1200 State Street, Perth Amboy?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And after you left in 1986, you
6 continued to work in a consulting role for Chevron
7 and other organizations, is that -- is that fair?
8 A Yes. It was an oil spill organization.
9 Q And up until about 1997?
10 A Ah, thats -- thats about the right time.
11 Q Okay. And what do you do now?
12 A I spread mulch. I plant flowers --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- I -- I sit on the beach. I go swimming in
15 the ocean.
16 Q Great.
17 Do you -- are you being compensated at
18 all for your testimony today?
19 A No.
20 Q When you started at the Perth Amboy
21 refinery, was it a small refinery in 1947?
22 A As refineries go, yes, it was a very small
23 refinery.
24 Q And at that point was it owned by
25 Barbara Asphalt Company?
0012
1 A It was partially owned by Barbara Asphalt and
2 partly by Standard Oil of California.
3 Q And in approximately 1949, did Chevron
4 start shutting down parts of the plant to open up
5 new sections?
6 A In that era, 49-50, the original Barbara
7 Asphalt plants were diminished as new facilities
8 were built.
9 Q And did Chevron thereafter enact
10 programs to build cat crackers, alkylization units,
11 thermal reformers, crude units and the like?
12 A Yes.
13 Q The -- what -- am I correct that the
14 maximum output for the Chevron refinery when you
15 were there peaked about 200,000 barrels a day?
16 A Thats correct.
17 Q Okay. So if we did -- what is the
18 current oil price, about $80 a gallon?
19 A 72 for crude oil.
20 Q All right. So lets say its 80 --
21 lets say its $80 a gallon, in todays terms --
22 A Not a gallon, a barrel.
23 Q -- a barrel, is that --
24 MR. LA SALA: Let him finish the
25 question, okay?
0013
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 Q -- if the price per barrel was about
3 $80 per barrel, that in todays terms at peak,
4 Chevron would have been making about $16 million per
5 day --
6 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
7 Q -- in the Perth Amboy refinery?
8 A No.
9 Q They werent generating $16 million per
10 day of oil output in todays dollars at its peak?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A Youre talking price of crude oil, and youre
13 talking profit. Youre talking apples and oranges.
14 Q Well, what was the profit per day that
15 Chevron was generating during its peak output, do
16 you know?
17 A I have no idea.
18 Q Okay. When you started in 47, you
19 started in the engineering department?
20 A Thats correct.
21 Q All right. And what were your
22 responsibilities?
23 A I -- I was assigned to assist the operations
24 in solving any problems, increasing capacity of the
25 refinery, and anything that needed a technical
0014
1 assistance.
2 Q Okay. And you kept that job until
3 about 1952?
4 A Thats correct.
5 Q And then you went to the operations
6 department?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And in the operations department, you
9 were responsible for running all of the process
10 plants that produced end products from crude oil, is
11 that fair?
12 A Not all of them. I did work at all of them,
13 but I did work -- was responsible only for parts of
14 them at a time.
15 Q What were your day-to-day
16 responsibilities?
17 A When?
18 Q When you took the job in the operations
19 department in 52.
20 A I was responsible for the safe operation of
21 the plants I was assigned to.
22 Q Okay. And what plants specifically?
23 A Originally I was on the crude units and
24 treating plants --
25 Q Okay.
0015
1 A -- and later on, I was on thermal reformers,
2 and then I was on a cat cracker, and -- and for a
3 short time I was on an alkylization plant and
4 platformers.
5 Q Did you keep that job until
6 approximately 1965?
7 A Ah, 65, 67, somewhere in that range.
8 Q All right. And during the time that
9 you had that job as general foreman for utilities,
10 were you familiar with the work that Ernie Horvath
11 was doing?
12 A In a broad sense, yes.
13 Q And how were you familiar with it?
14 A Well, I knew -- I knew he was assigned to
15 the -- the truck driver crane operation functions,
16 and they performed functions for our needs in the
17 operations department.
18 Q Did you have any supervisory role over
19 Ernie during that --
20 A No.
21 Q -- 65 -- you didnt?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay.
24 MR. LA SALA: Please let him finish the
25 question.
0016
1 MR. PLACITELLA: Thats fine.
2 THE WITNESS: I thought he was
3 finished.
4 Q I understand. I understand. I think I
5 actually made a mistake.
6 So from 1965 to 1970, did you become
7 general foreman for utilities?
8 A Ah, lets see.
9 52 -- 60 -- again, what years?
10 Q From like 65 to like 70.
11 A I believe thats correct.
12 Q Okay. And during -- in that time
13 frame, were you also in charge of the maintenance
14 crew?
15 A No.
16 Q You werent?
17 A I was in charge of maintenance after I left
18 operations.
19 Q Right. From -- in 1965, that is my --
20 A 65, 68, I dont remember.
21 Q Okay. Thats fair.
22 And did you have familiarity with what
23 Ernie Horvath was doing in the plant during the time
24 you were general foreman for utilities?
25 A I knew what his -- I knew that he operated
0017
1 cranes and drove trucks.
2 Q Okay. Did you have any supervisory
3 capacity over him?
4 A Not while I was in utilities.
5 Q In 1970, did you become chief engineer
6 for the refinery?
7 A Actually I -- I was in maintenance, but I
8 think it was a couple of years later.
9 Q When you became chief engineer?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You think around 72?
12 A Somewhere in that range.
13 Q Okay. What were your general job
14 responsibilities when you had that job as chief
15 engineer?
16 A I was responsible for all maintenance,
17 construction, design engineering, and metallurgical
18 inspection.
19 Q Okay. And did you have any supervisory
20 role over Ernie Horvaths job in that job?
21 A His job was part of my responsibility.
22 Q So did you directly supervise him?
23 A Not directly.
24 Q Who in your department had direct
25 supervision over him, if you can recall?
0018
1 A I dont remember the foremans name at this
2 point.
3 Q Okay. You are -- do you know William
4 Horvath?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. He, by the way, said to say
7 hello to you.
8 A Okay.
9 Q And how would you rate William Horvath
10 in that one, two, and three category that you gave
11 me before, the average employee, the troublemaker,
12 how do you rate him --
13 MR. LA SALA: Or the top rank.
14 Q -- or the top rank, or some combination
15 of the three?
16 A I would say the upper part of the middle
17 bracket.
18 Q So he was upper average?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. And you knew that he was the
21 president of the union for a while, while he was
22 there?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, you are familiar with the fact,
25 are you not, that for a period of time, asbestos was
0019
1 used as a material for insulation inside of the
2 plant?
3 A At what point were you referring to?
4 Q At some point in time.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Am I correct that in the early
7 days, almost all of the insulation in the Chevron
8 refinery was asbestos?
9 A Actually I was unaware in the early days that
10 there was asbestos in the insulation.
11 Q One of the depositions you gave was in
12 a case called Peterson. Do you recall that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That is the -- that is one of the ones
15 that you reviewed --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- in preparation.
18 And on page 108 of your deposition, you
19 were asked the following question, and you gave the
20 following answer:
21 QUESTION: You mentioned in your
22 declaration that insulation contained asbestos. Do
23 you think all of the insulated piping insulation on
24 the insulated piping contained asbestos?
25 ANSWER: Well, in my early career,
0020
1 to my knowledge, all of the insulation in the early
2 days included asbestos.
3 Do you recall giving that testimony?
4 A Well, I dont remember specifically, but I
5 probably did.
6 Q And that was under oath, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. Now, am I correct that there was
9 asbestos insulation attached to pipelines?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Drums?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Towers?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Turbines?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Furnaces?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Boilers?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Pumps?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Gaskets?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Im sorry -- flanges?
0021
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. And even in the 19 -- even in
3 the early seventies when Chevron had made a decision
4 to discontinue using asbestos, a large percentage of
5 the refinery still contained asbestos, true?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. Now, there were various types of
8 asbestos used in the refinery, correct, types of
9 products?
10 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
11 A Well, in different products.
12 Is that what your question is?
13 Q Yes.
14 There were different physical kinds of
15 asbestos products used in the refinery.
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. For instance, do you know
19 what 85 percent magnesia was?
20 A That was a name given to the insulation that
21 was being used.
22 Q All right. And that was an
23 asbestos-containing product, correct?
24 A I learned that it was after a while, yes.
25 Q When did you learn that?
0022
1 A I cant give you a specific date.
2 When I started, we just talked in terms
3 of insulation, didnt whether -- we didnt know the
4 chemical composition of it initially until it became
5 an issue.
6 Q Thats fair.
7 Calcium silicate, was that a product
8 that was used in the refinery?
9 A I assume so. I am not familiar.
10 Q Okay. During the installation removal
11 and repair of 85 percent magnesia, was dust created
12 as part of the process?
13 A What is your question?
14 Q During the installation, removal and
15 repair --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- of 85 percent magnesia, was dust
18 created?
19 A To some extent.
20 Q And do you recall asbestos-containing
21 block being used at the refinery?
22 A Yes.
23 Q All right. And when that block was
24 installed, did it sometimes have to be cut?
25 A Yes.
0023
1 Q Did that create dust?
2 A To some extent.
3 Q Did the block have to be removed during
4 maintenance operations?
5 A Some spot cases, yes.
6 Q And when the block was removed, would
7 that create dust?
8 A It depended -- just removing it, no.
9 If it fell and hit the ground, it might
10 create some.
11 Q Okay. And what about blankets? Were
12 asbestos-containing blankets used at Chevron?
13 A Im not sure I understand the question.
14 Q Do you know what a blanket is,
15 insulation blanket, in the context of Chevron?
16 A No, I dont understand that.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Maybe Im
18 asking the question poorly.
19 MR. LA SALA: I doubt that.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Its very possible.
21 Q Do you recall blankets being used on
22 turbines for insulation?
23 A I dont know what the term blanket refers
24 to. We had covering. We had blocks, and we had a
25 block, which was preformed insulation, and then you
0024
1 did some -- before the industry developed elbows and
2 such, we would cut it to fit it.
3 Q Okay. You were asked on page 119 of
4 your Peterson deposition -- if Mr. LaSala wants to
5 show it to you, thats fine.
6 You see where it -- see on line 15, see
7 where you talk about blocks and blankets and such,
8 do you recall that?
9 A Yeah, I see it, but I dont remember saying
10 it.
11 Q You dont -- does that refresh your
12 memory as to whether asbestos-containing blankets
13 were used at Chevron?
14 A I dont know what a -- what an asbestos
15 blanket is.
16 Q Do you remember blankets being used for
17 insulation?
18 A I didnt use that term.
19 If I used it there, I dont know why I
20 used it.
21 Q Okay. So you dont know why you
22 testified to that under oath?
23 A I dont know the word --
24 Q Okay.
25 A -- blankets.
0025
1 Q What about mud? Do you know what mud
2 is, mud cement?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Was mud cement that contained asbestos
5 used at Chevron?
6 A I dont know what the cement contained.
7 They used it to cement up elbows on
8 piping before the industry developed preformed
9 elbows.
10 Q You, on page 120 of your deposition,
11 gave the following testimony under oath:
12 One last set of questions working off
13 your declaration, apparently you signed an affidavit
14 in connection with this case, Mr. Wirkowski, is that
15 true?
16 MR. LA SALA: Meaning Peterson?
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes.
18 A What line?
19 Q Here it says, you mentioned the mud
20 cement. Can you tell me what the mud cement is?
21 And your answer under oath was: Well,
22 I dont know if that is a technical term or not, but
23 mud cement is an asbestos insulation that is made up
24 in the form of cement into a mud, and they use it to
25 do patching.
0026
1 Do you recall giving that testimony
2 under oath, sir?
3 A Specifically, no.
4 Q Was that truthful when you gave it,
5 sir, that testimony?
6 A I -- I dont remember giving it.
7 Now, it may contain asbestos, and it
8 may not. I dont know the chemical composition of
9 it.
10 Q But when you were deposed in the prior
11 case, sir, you swore under oath that the mud cement
12 contained asbestos, did you not?
13 A Evidently I did, if that is what it says
14 there.
15 Q Okay. Now, am I correct that you do
16 not recall the manufacturers of any of the
17 insulation products used at the Perth Amboy
18 refinery?
19 A Ah, Johns-Manville was one that I think was --
20 might have been used, but I dont remember the
21 others. I didnt order the material.
22 Q You didnt know that it was
23 Johns-Manville used for a fact, did you?
24 You dont know that it was used for a
25 fact, do you?
0027
1 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
2 A No, I dont.
3 Q And youre not aware of any other
4 manufacturer of insulation, true?
5 A Not that I remember.
6 Q Now, we talked about various pieces of
7 equipment that required asbestos insulation, one of
8 them was piping, correct?
9 A Thats correct.
10 Q All right. Can you tell me how many
11 miles of piping were located in the Chevron
12 refinery?
13 A No.
14 Q Well, was it two miles, three miles, a
15 hundred miles? Do you have any guesstimate?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A If you want an estimate, Id say maybe a dozen
18 miles.
19 Q About 12 miles?
20 A Yes. You know, it was a guess.
21 Q And am I correct that over 50 percent
22 of the piping was insulated with asbestos?
23 A That would be a reasonable estimate.
24 Q And was asbestos used in all of the
25 gasket material that was used to connect the pipes?
0028
1 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
2 A I was told that it was asbestos in the -- in
3 gasket material. I have no chemical analysis of
4 those materials. I just accepted that the same as I
5 did with the insulation.
6 We didnt have a chemical analysis that
7 was given. The insulation and the other things were
8 used for heat transfer and for sealing leaks.
9 Q You previously testified under oath
10 that asbestos was involved in practically all of the
11 gasket material used between pipe connections. Do
12 you recall that?
13 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
14 A A -- I dont recall at this point that I said
15 that --
16 Q Well --
17 A -- but I probably did.
18 Q -- can you rely on that testimony under
19 oath from before, sir?
20 A Yes, I can.
21 Q Okay. Do you know whether cranes were
22 ever used to assist in the repair of piping?
23 A Yes, they were.
24 Q And what would be the role of a crane
25 used in the assistance to repair piping?
0029
1 A If you were replacing a section of pipe, the
2 crane would lower the part to be removed and raise
3 up the sections that were replacing it.
4 Q All right. And was asbestos -- I will
5 move now to pumps.
6 Was asbestos also associated with pumps
7 that were used in the Chevron refinery?
8 A Some pumps were insulated.
9 Q And were most pumps packed with
10 asbestos with the flanges -- on the flanges.
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A Well, I -- gaskets were used on flanges.
13 Packing was not on the flanges.
14 Q Okay. Was packing used in most pumps?
15 A Unless they had mechanical seals, they were --
16 we had packing to prevent leakage on the shafts.
17 Q Was that packing asbestos containing?
18 A I understand it was.
19 Q Okay. And were cranes ever used to
20 assist in the repair or moving of pumps?
21 A Not in the repair, but in -- in -- in moving
22 them.
23 Q Okay. Valves, do you know what a valve
24 is in the context of a Chevron refinery?
25 A Yes.
0030
1 Q Okay. Can you approximate --
2 approximate how many valves were located in the
3 Chevron refinery?
4 A Probably a couple of thousand.
5 Q All right. And the valves themselves,
6 they varied in size?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what would the biggest valve --
9 what size would the biggest valve be?
10 A Probably about 30-inch.
11 Q Okay. And were those valves ever
12 insulated with asbestos?
13 A Some were.
14 Q Okay. And were cranes ever used to
15 move valves or used in the repair of valves?
16 A I would say in the removal, not necessarily in
17 the repair --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- in the large ones.
20 Q What about drums, do you know what a
21 drum is?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Whats a drum in the context of a
24 Chevron refinery?
25 A A drum is a -- its a piece of equipment that
0031
1 stores or -- a liquid of one form or another.
2 Q Okay. And were the -- how many drums
3 were there in the Chevron refinery while you were
4 there on average?
5 A I never counted the number of drums or valves
6 or anything, but there were probably a hundred or
7 so.
8 Q Okay. And were those drums -- did they
9 ever contain any asbestos-containing products?
10 A Some drums were insulated, and the early
11 insulation did contain asbestos.
12 Q Okay. Do you know what a fractionating
13 column is?
14 A I think the word is fractionating.
15 Q Thats -- Im sorry. Thats what I
16 said. You just didnt hear me.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that different than -- is there
19 another name for that in the process?
20 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
21 A I -- I -- no other name comes to mind at the
22 moment.
23 Q Okay. Is that a difference between a
24 distillation column and a fractionating column?
25 A No. They are one and the same.
0032
1 Q They are the same, okay.
2 What is a fractionating column or a
3 distillation column?
4 A It is a column where heated crude oil enters,
5 and it separates into different fractions of the
6 crude oil.
7 Q And how many were there in the Chevron
8 refinery while you were there?
9 A Well, each process unit had several, two to
10 five.
11 Q And how tall were there? They were
12 about a hundred-fifty feet tall?
13 A A hundred, a hundred-fifty. It varied with
14 the process -- with the unit, but they could be from
15 approximately a hundred to a hundred-fifty feet.
16 Q And were they insulated with asbestos?
17 A Yes --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- they were insulated with insu -- they were
20 insulated and had asbestos in them.
21 Q And was a crane ever used to repair the
22 fractionating column or the distillation column in
23 conjunction with the repair? Lets put it that way.
24 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
25 A Ah, internally, no.
0033
1 Externally where piping was connected
2 to it, it could be.
3 Q Okay. Now, do you -- are you familiar
4 with the term, a furnace in connection with the
5 Chevron refinery?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. And how many furnaces were there
8 in the Chevron refinery while you were there?
9 A Each operating unit had one or two furnaces,
10 so about a dozen.
11 Q And were those furnaces insulated with
12 asbestos?
13 A They were insulated with asbestos insulation
14 and refractory material internally.
15 Q And was a crane ever used in
16 conjunction with a furnace for removing it or
17 repairing it?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you know what a cat cracker is?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is a cat cracker a standalone piece of
22 equipment, or is it a combination of pieces of
23 equipment?
24 A It has -- it has a large number of different
25 equipment process towers, furnaces, pumps, turbines.
0034
1 Q Okay. Were the components of cat
2 crackers insulated with asbestos?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Were cranes ever used in conjunction
5 with the repair of cat crackers?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. Do you know what a turbine is in
8 the context of Chevron?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Approximately how many turbines
11 were there in Chevron while you were there?
12 A 500, 800.
13 Q And were those turbines insulated with
14 asbestos?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And was a crane ever used in connection
17 with the repair or moving of turbines?
18 A Sometimes.
19 Q Okay. Power plant number one, are you
20 familiar with that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. Was that the one that was
23 operated by the Barbara Asphalt Company?
24 A Thats correct.
25 Q And were there two power plants, and
0035
1 then there was a second one later on, is that right?
2 A The second one was built in the 49-50 era.
3 Q Okay. And how many pumps were in the
4 power plants?
5 A Ah, well, a dozen or so.
6 Q All right. And were those pumps
7 insulated with asbestos?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And were cranes ever used to assist in
10 the repair or moving of those pumps?
11 A At number two power plant, the pumps were
12 inside of a building, and the cranes did not operate
13 inside of the building. They used overhead portable
14 cranes.
15 Q Okay. What about number one?
16 A Im sorry?
17 Q What about power plant number one?
18 A That also -- they were also inside of a
19 building, but there were some pumps outside that
20 they may have been used at.
21 Q Now, were boilers -- are boilers and
22 furnaces the same thing or two different things in
23 the context of a Chevron refinery?
24 A Yes and no.
25 A boiler generates steam, and a furnace
0036
1 is used to heat up oil --
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- but they both have similar kind of
4 components.
5 Q How many boilers were there in the
6 Chevron refinery?
7 A At number two power plant, there were five.
8 Number one power plant, I think it was
9 two, but I am not sure.
10 Q Were those boilers insulated with
11 asbestos?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And do you know whether a crane was
14 ever used in conjunction with the repair or moving
15 of that piece of equipment?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A The boilers at number two power plant were
18 partially indoors and partially outdoors, so part of
19 it could have been -- a crane could have been used
20 on the part that was outdoors.
21 Q Okay. Now, Chevron had a number of
22 engineers working for them at the refinery, true?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. And did the engineers have
25 different roles within the refinery?
0037
1 A Well, they were assigned different jobs.
2 Q Were there engineers that were
3 specifically responsible for specifying what kind of
4 materials would be used in the plant?
5 A In a broad sense, I dont think the answer is
6 yes. They might be specific about specific jobs.
7 Q Could any material be used inside of
8 the refinery that did not meet Chevrons
9 specifications?
10 A I really dont know how to answer that
11 question because I am not sure of the extent in --
12 if -- I think the answer is they ordered material
13 that was used by Chevron or approved by Chevron.
14 Q Okay. Now, am I correct that Chevron,
15 with respect to the insulation, Chevron would
16 determine the size of the insulation used?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Im not
19 sure --
20 MR. LA SALA: When I say object to
21 form --
22 THE WITNESS: -- what does that mean?
23 MR. LA SALA: -- that is just something
24 for --
25 MR. PLACITELLA: Its lawyer stuff.
0038
1 MR. LA SALA: -- its something for the
2 record --
3 A I see.
4 MR. LA SALA: -- and I cannot direct
5 you not to answer, so you have to answer the
6 questions unless he starts yelling at me --
7 Q He says it was a kind of icky question,
8 but you got to answer it anyhow.
9 A Tell me again your question.
10 Q Okay.
11 When Chevron -- with respect to
12 insulation, did Chevron have a role over what kind
13 of insulation was being used and how it was being
14 used?
15 A Well, Chevron determined how it was used and
16 usually determined the thickness and the heat
17 transfer capability of it.
18 Q Okay. And -- so, for instance, would
19 Chevron have to approve a material -- as you have to
20 use 85 percent magnesia --
21 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
22 Q -- versus say Fiberglas on a piece of
23 pipe?
24 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
25 A Not that Im aware of.
0039
1 Q Who makes the determination as to what
2 kind of insulation is being used on a piece of
3 equipment?
4 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
5 A The specification was basically determined by
6 the ability to -- regarding heat transfer, rather
7 than the composition of the material itself.
8 Q Did you have a list of approved kinds
9 of materials for a given type of operation?
10 So, for example, to be clear, if you
11 were going to insulate a cat cracker -- or scratch
12 that.
13 If you were going to insulate a
14 distillation tower, would there be a list of the
15 kind of insulation that would be approved for
16 insulating that tower?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A It would be more in terms of what the
19 thickness and heat transfer would be rather than the
20 composition.
21 Q Would it -- would it be clear to the
22 people at Chevron, who were in charge, what kind of
23 insulation was being used in a given application?
24 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
25 A By kind, do you mean composition?
0040
1 Q Correct.
2 A No, we didnt specify composition.
3 Q Well, you knew when a product was going
4 up, whether it was block, pipe covering or cement,
5 true?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. And you knew when a product was
8 going up, whether it was 85 percent magnesia or say
9 Fiberglas, true?
10 A I dont know the answer to that question.
11 Q Okay. The purchasing department
12 purchased all of the insulation that was used on the
13 equipment, true?
14 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
15 A Ah, sometimes a contractor would supply it.
16 Other times the company would buy it.
17 Q Okay. Now, when a contractor supplied
18 it, the contractors sometimes would install the
19 insulation, true?
20 A On occasions, yes, on --
21 Q And when that happened, the contractors
22 would follow the Chevron specifications, true?
23 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
24 A They would follow the specifications in the
25 contract they received from the engineering
0041
1 department.
2 Q So the answer is yes?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A Ah --
5 Q So the answer is yes. The contractors
6 followed Chevrons specification of the materials
7 they were installing?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And Chevron actually had a
10 supervisor, whose job it was to oversee the work of
11 the outside contractors, true?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. Now, the insulation that was
14 used on the various pieces of equipment that we went
15 through, that would have to be repaired from time to
16 time, true?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. And the insulation on the
19 piping, for example, was frequently worked on
20 because of instrument malfunction, true?
21 A Feed lines on instruments, yes.
22 Q And you can recall actually sometimes
23 walking by when these kinds of repairs were going on
24 on piping and see stuff fluttering down to the
25 ground from the air, true?
0042
1 A Id see pieces of insulation fall, but I
2 wouldnt use the word fluttering.
3 Q Okay. On page 114 of your prior
4 deposition, you were asked the following question
5 and you gave the following answer:
6 QUESTION: Do you think over his work
7 history at Perth Amboy, that Mr. Peterson was frequently
8 in the presence of this insulation work where piping
9 and other insulation on equipment was removed or
10 installed?
11 ANSWER: I would say no more than
12 me or anybody else, all right, and I was exposed to
13 it over the years. Sometimes Id have -- Id
14 have -- you would walk by there, and there is a
15 whole bunch of stuff fluttering down.
16 Do you recall that testimony?
17 A No, I dont.
18 (Laughter)
19 Q Do you -- do you -- well, you gave that
20 testimony under oath, right?
21 A Well, yes, but I dont recall it.
22 Q Now, Chevron had a maintenance crew
23 that regularly installed insulation and made
24 insulation repairs, true?
25 A Yes.
0043
1 Q Okay. And a lot of times when that was
2 done, the insulation would actually have to be
3 chopped or broken away from copper tubes when you
4 were using -- using it, true?
5 A It would be broken away from the lines that
6 it -- and the tubing might be underneath the
7 insulation.
8 Q And the way you did that is you would
9 have to chop it?
10 A You would -- you would have to break the
11 outside covering and then you may chop it or
12 dismantle it in whatever was convenient to do that.
13 Q And you actually observed that?
14 A Many, many times.
15 Q Okay. Now, do you know what a shutdown
16 is?
17 A Yes, I know what a shutdown is.
18 Q All right. Im not trying to --
19 A I know.
20 Q -- I just have to ask you the
21 questions. I am actually moving through this as
22 fast as I can. Okay?
23 Do you know what a turn-around is?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Is there a difference between a
0044
1 shutdown and a turn-around in your mind?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. So they are the same thing?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, was there more than one kind of
6 shutdown or turn-around? Do you know what I mean by
7 that?
8 A No, I --
9 Q Well, were there times -- let me ask
10 the question this way:
11 Were there times where the shutdowns
12 were planned on kind of a regular basis, and were
13 there other times when the whole plant shut down?
14 A There were -- there were planned shutdowns,
15 and then there were sometimes an emergency shutdown.
16 The entire refinery shut down on very rare
17 occasions.
18 Q Okay. And the partial shutdowns, am I
19 correct, that sections of the plant would be taken
20 down and overhauled?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that was really the function, you
23 kind of keep the maintenance up, fix anything that
24 is wrong, that kind of thing?
25 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
0045
1 A The real function was to keep the plant
2 operating.
3 Q When shutdowns occurred, was asbestos
4 insulation removed and reinstalled as part of the
5 process?
6 A The insulation that -- that contained asbestos
7 was removed, and later on the insulation that was
8 installed did not contain it. Early it may have;
9 later it did not.
10 Q But that wasnt until sometime in the
11 seventies, right?
12 A I think the early seventies.
13 Q Okay. So prior to the early seventies
14 when the insulation was put back up, it was
15 asbestos?
16 A It would be -- I assume that is correct.
17 Q Okay. Now, were the -- did these
18 periodic shutdowns occur every couple of months?
19 How often did they happen?
20 A Occasionally we might average a shutdown of a
21 plant once a year, and as we became more proficient,
22 we extended those out to several years, two or more,
23 two or three years.
24 Q And how long would a shutdown last?
25 A Depending on the scope of the work to be done,
0046
1 it might be from one week to three weeks.
2 Q Okay. And during the shutdown,
3 insulation was ripped off of the equipment?
4 A In general, yes.
5 Q Now, Mr. Horvath said that during
6 shutdowns, his crane would be in the location during
7 the entire time. Is that -- is that consistent with
8 your understanding?
9 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
10 A Not in all cases.
11 Q But did it happen?
12 A Did it ever happen?
13 Q Yes.
14 A I would say that there probably was a shutdown
15 where it could have occurred.
16 Q Okay. During shutdowns, are you aware
17 as to whether Mr. Horvath was involved in the
18 removing of pipe that was corroded?
19 A If your question relates to use of a crane
20 when he was operating a crane, the answer is yes.
21 Q Okay.
22 A If you are talking about personally like a
23 pipefitter doing it, no, I never remember seeing
24 him.
25 Q Do you -- do you have any familiarity
0047
1 with the fact that when Mr. Horvath was asked from
2 time to time, when things werent that busy, to get
3 down out of his crane and actually do some of --
4 some of the repair work that he was experienced in
5 doing?
6 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
7 A In answer to your question, for the bulk of
8 his career, the answer is no.
9 At the tail end of his career, where
10 the maintenance work rules created more flexibility,
11 there may have been an occasion. I personally never
12 observed him doing it, though.
13 Q Okay. Am I correct that the cat
14 cracker was shut down approximately once a year for
15 two weeks to a month?
16 A Close enough approximation.
17 Q Okay. And during that process, the
18 asbestos insulation would be removed?
19 A Some would --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- where it was necessary for repairs or
22 inspection purposes.
23 Q And are you familiar with the fact that
24 insulation, when it was knocked off the cracker
25 at -- at above ground, that it would fall to the
0048
1 ground and splatter dust all over the place?
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 A No.
4 Q You never saw that happen?
5 A I saw it fall to the ground. I -- I dont
6 think it splat -- it -- dust all over the place was
7 a good, you know, a good description.
8 Q Well, how far -- what was the highest
9 point that you are aware of that asbestos insulation
10 was knocked off a piece of equipment at the Chevron
11 plant, how high?
12 A The cat cracker was a structure that was
13 approximately 30 floors high, and they had platforms
14 in between, so you had asbestos that came off and
15 came to the platforms.
16 For the most part on a rare occasion
17 you might have one come all the way down to the
18 ground, but that was a rare occasion that it would
19 fall all the way down since there were intermediate
20 levels.
21 Q So if it happened, it would fall say
22 300 feet at the top?
23 A Ah, I dont remember that ever occurring.
24 Q Well, when the insulation was knocked
25 off from an elevated area within the plant, and it
0049
1 fell to the ground, what would happen to it?
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 Q Would it create dust?
4 A It would break in parts, and there might be
5 some dust.
6 Q Okay. Now, what was -- what procedures
7 were used inside of the Chevron refinery, if you
8 know, to prevent the insulation that was in elevated
9 areas falling to the ground and breaking apart
10 during -- during repair?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A Prior to the knowledge that asbestos was
13 included in a problem, the insulation that was
14 knocked off would fall to the ground, break apart,
15 be cleaned up like any debris.
16 Q Do you have a recollection of shutdowns
17 occurring in the catalytic reforming area?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And would Mr. Horvath work in that area
20 during shutdowns?
21 A Each shutdown would utilize both company
22 equipment personnel and outside contractors, and if
23 he was assigned to that thing, yes, he could have
24 worked there.
25 Q Well, when a catalytic reformer
0050
1 shutdown took place, was a crane typically involved
2 in that operation?
3 A Each shutdown had a specific work list, and
4 the work list determined what kind of equipment you
5 needed to do it. In general, I would say a crane
6 was generally involved in most shutdowns.
7 Q You are familiar with an alkylization
8 unit?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did that also involve shutdowns maybe
11 once every year or once every two years?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. And was asbestos removed and
14 replaced as part of that operation?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And would a crane be involved as part
17 of that operation?
18 A The same as -- as the platform or the thermal
19 reformer.
20 Q Okay. Now, youre familiar with the
21 fact that Mr. Horvath was a crane operator, true?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And he had that job from say 1951 to
24 1986?
25 A I would say yes.
0051
1 Q Okay. Are you familiar with the fact
2 that he also drove a truck and a bulldozer inside of
3 the plant?
4 A Im familiar with the truck, not a bulldozer.
5 Q Okay. Are you aware that when he was a
6 truck driver, he was the only truck driver in the
7 plant?
8 A No, I am not aware of that.
9 Q Okay. Are you aware of any other truck
10 drivers in the plant, other than Mr. Horvath, during
11 the time that he worked there?
12 A Yes, yes.
13 Q Okay. How many others?
14 A Several.
15 Q Okay. As a truck driver, am I correct,
16 that Mr. Horvath hauled material all over the plant
17 including insulation and piping?
18 A I would assume the answer is yes.
19 We also had materials stored at various
20 places out in the refinery that reduced the need for
21 deliveries from the storeroom.
22 Q Now, when Mr. Horvath talked about
23 being exposed to insulation while he was a crane
24 operator, one of the quotes he gave was as follows,
25 and I want to see if this is consistent with your
0052
1 understanding.
2 He said: When the insulators would be
3 knocking it down, it would come all over my crane.
4 When I was working outside in the
5 units, I would have to wipe my windows off. I could
6 not see out my windows. I was -- it was loaded with
7 it, close quote.
8 Is that consistent with your
9 understanding of what could happen?
10 A A great exaggeration.
11 Q How -- how was it exaggerated?
12 A There was never that much dust that would
13 cover a windshield, ah, when you -- when he dropped
14 the material, the crane was usually -- the arms were
15 usually above the insulation, and it -- and it would
16 fall at its base, not by the crane itself, but the
17 arm, under the arm where it was being lifted.
18 Q So you are saying it could never have
19 happened that the insulation would actually drop on
20 his crane?
21 A No, I didnt say never.
22 I said it was a great exaggeration as
23 you described it.
24 Q Okay. When you say great, why do you
25 say the word great?
0053
1 A Because I never saw insulation dust on the
2 crane in all of the years I worked there.
3 Q Okay. So you had the opportunity to
4 observe Mr. Horvath in all of his duties?
5 A Not all.
6 Q Okay. And you had the opportunity to
7 observe Mr. Horvath when he was asked to assist, for
8 instance, when insulation was being knocked off of
9 equipment of a hundred feet or more in the air?
10 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
11 A I never saw Mr. Horvath operate a crane a
12 hundred feet, that operated at a hundred feet
13 height.
14 Q That wasnt my question.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Were you aware of the fact that he was
17 involved in operations, where the insulation was
18 falling from elevations of a hundred feet or more?
19 A No, Im not aware of it.
20 Q Did it not happen, in your opinion, or
21 youre just not aware of it?
22 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
23 A The -- there are rare occasions where we might
24 have had some insulation fall on that type of a
25 situation once in 20 years or something of that
0054
1 sort, but Im not aware that he was there in that
2 part of the operation.
3 Q Are you certain that occurred, or you
4 just dont know one way or the other?
5 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
6 A Pardon?
7 Q Are you certain he was not there, or
8 you just dont know one way or the other?
9 A I was -- Im not -- I wasnt aware of his
10 actions eight hours a day.
11 Q Okay. Now, am I correct that Ernie
12 Horvath worked on the four crude units at one point
13 in time as part of his job?
14 A Did he operate a crane in those areas?
15 Q Correct.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did he operate a crane in the reformer
18 areas?
19 A During his career he probably worked at all of
20 the facilities in the refinery.
21 Q Okay. And he was not restricted to any
22 particular place in the refinery as a crane
23 operator, was he?
24 A No. Crane operators -- maintenance people
25 were assigned to where the work was needed.
0055
1 Q Okay. And a crane operator could be
2 assigned to wherever heavy lifting had to be done,
3 true?
4 A Thats true.
5 Q Okay. And just so Im clear on the
6 issue of cat crackers, they could be as high as 200
7 feet in the air, true?
8 A They could be what?
9 Q They could be as high as 20 stories,
10 200 feet in the air, a cat cracker?
11 A A cat cracker was as high as up to 300 feet,
12 the stack was.
13 Q And with respect to the cat cracker, it
14 was insulated with asbestos all the way up 300 feet,
15 true?
16 A Parts of it, were.
17 Ah, some lines were. Some lines
18 werent.
19 Q Okay --
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 30 seconds.
21 Q -- hes got to take a break, and you
22 probably need a break from me --
23 A All right.
24 Q -- so why dont we take two minutes.
25 Okay?
0056
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Were off the record
2 at 11:01 a.m.
3 (Recess taken.).
4 MR. PLACITELLA: Are you ready?
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Im ready.
6 Ready?
7 THE REPORTER: Yes.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
9 record at 11:04 a.m.
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q The Chevron refinery was close to the
12 water, am I correct?
13 A Part of it was.
14 Q And can you describe what the --
15 generally what the wind conditions were there?
16 Did the water affect it?
17 A The wind conditions, they varied considerably
18 depending on -- just like they do everywhere in this
19 state.
20 Q Were there days when it was very windy
21 and whatever was in the plant would get blown
22 around?
23 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
24 A If you check the weather reports, you can see
25 that there are windy days.
0057
1 Now, when you talk about things blowing
2 around, Im -- Im not sure I understand what you
3 mean by that.
4 Q Okay. How high was the tallest
5 structure in the reinformer plant?
6 MR. LA SALA: Im sorry, the
7 reinformer?
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah, reinformer.
9 A I assume you are referring to a thermal
10 reformer.
11 Q Correct.
12 A Ah, estimated 75, a hundred feet.
13 Q And --
14 MR. LA SALA: Did you say seven -- what
15 did you say, 75 to a hundred?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. LA SALA: Okay. I thought you said
18 7500.
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: No. I -- I understood
21 it not to be --
22 MR. LA SALA: I dont know if it came
23 out that way.
24 Q That would be extraordinarily high?
25 A That would be a column, a fractionating
0058
1 column.
2 Q Would that column be insulated with
3 asbestos?
4 A Most of it, yes.
5 Q Do you know what a PA plant is?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What is that?
8 A Its a phthalic anhydride plant.
9 Q Whats the highest elevation of a piece
10 of equipment in the PA plant?
11 A I dont really remember frankly --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- I never worked there in that plant.
14 Q Am I correct that generally speaking
15 the Chevron employees would change their clothes in
16 a locker room, a general locker room?
17 A There was a general locker room that may --
18 that was available. Each employee had his locker,
19 and there was a change house and there was
20 showers --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- whether they changed or not, I didnt
23 personally observe.
24 Q Was that ever required, that you change
25 your clothes before you go home?
0059
1 A Ah, the only place that I know of that was
2 required was where we cleaned sludge from leaded
3 gasoline tanks.
4 Q Okay. Now, can you tell me in your
5 experience what trades at the Chevron refinery or
6 what job titles at the Chevron refinery would have
7 been exposed to asbestos during the course of their
8 work?
9 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
10 A Obviously, the insulators would be most
11 involved because they were the ones who basically
12 installed and mostly removed insulation.
13 Others would be exposed only as a
14 passerby kind of a thing.
15 Q As a bystander?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Would foremen be exposed as bystanders?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were -- in fact, were you actually
20 exposed as a bystander?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Were maintenance people exposed as
23 bystanders --
24 A Ah, yes.
25 Q -- or actually doing the work?
0060
1 A Either way.
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 Q Okay. Were laborer exposed as
4 bystanders?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And were crane operators exposed as
7 bystanders?
8 A Not as much as the ones who were on the ground
9 working, doing it.
10 Q Not as much as the people actually
11 doing it, but they were exposed as bystanders?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Crane operators were usually in a cab in a
14 crane, and as such, I dont think they were really
15 exposed to it.
16 Q Well, were their cabs open or closed?
17 A To my memory, they had roofs and were closed.
18 They had windows that may be opened or closed.
19 Q And did they have to get in and out of
20 their cab -- the cabs in order to do the work?
21 A They had to get in to operate it, like you do
22 a car.
23 Q Okay. And did they -- did you know
24 that the brakes on the cranes contained asbestos?
25 A Well, I heard that the brake linings all
0061
1 contained asbestos, but I dont know that as a fact.
2 Q And did you know that the brakes on the
3 cranes were directly exposed to the inside of the
4 cab?
5 A No. Im not aware of that.
6 Q One way or the other?
7 A Im not -- not familiar with that.
8 Q Okay. And do you know whether from
9 time to time crane operators would be asked to get
10 down out of their crane and assist in moving things
11 around?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Ah, that was not done for the -- for most of
14 the working career of Ernie or myself.
15 Q Were truck drivers exposed to asbestos
16 in the plant?
17 A Truck drivers were in and out of the truck
18 more than the crane operator was, so they might be,
19 if they were -- when they were outside of the truck.
20 Q Do you know whether -- youre aware
21 that a number of people who worked for Chevron
22 actually came down with disease from asbestos, true?
23 A Well, I know of Carl Peterson. I dont
24 know -- I dont recall anybody else.
25 Q Who is Carl Peterson?
0062
1 A Hes the one who was in the -- in the
2 interrogatory that you had quoted before.
3 Q What was his job?
4 A He was an engineer and then a supervisor in
5 the utilities section.
6 Q As an engineer, did he personally
7 handle asbestos?
8 A Did he physically do work?
9 Q Yes.
10 A No. Neither engineers or -- or supervisors
11 performed work, normally that were contracted to the
12 union personnel.
13 Q So is the answer to my question that he
14 did not -- that Mr. Peterson, as either an engineer
15 or a supervisor, did not directly work with
16 asbestos?
17 A I would say that is generally correct except
18 during a long strike that we had.
19 Q Right.
20 And even though he didnt directly work
21 with asbestos in the Chevron refinery, he got sick
22 from asbestos, true?
23 A Thats what my understanding is.
24 Q Okay. Are you aware as to whether any
25 employees of Chevron actually filed workers
0063
1 compensation claims against Chevron alleging they
2 were sick from asbestos?
3 A Im not familiar with that.
4 Q Who would know that?
5 A Our labor relations department would be the
6 ones who would receive the requests for workmans
7 compensation.
8 Q Any specific individual that you can
9 recall?
10 A The two I recall are both dead, Larry Salerno
11 and Matt Fratterolo.
12 Q So they wont be that much help to me.
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. During the time that you worked
15 at Chevron, did it maintain a medical department at
16 the refinery?
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. And was there an actual
19 doctor on staff?
20 A A doctor was there part-time.
21 Q What was the doctors name?
22 A Vince Cannamella.
23 Q Okay. And do you know if Vince is
24 alive or dead?
25 A I dont know the answer to that.
0064
1 Q What was his job, Dr. Cannamella?
2 A He was there to handle medical problems and
3 give annual physicals.
4 Q Okay. During the time that you worked
5 at Chevron, do you know what an industrial hygienist
6 is?
7 A I know what a -- yes, I know what a --
8 Q Was there an industrial hygienist on
9 staff at the Perth Amboy refinery during the time
10 that you worked there?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you know whether prior to 1970
13 Chevron ever employed a professional to do dust
14 counts in the plant?
15 A To do what?
16 Q Dust counts.
17 A Spell that.
18 Q D-u-s-t c-o-u --
19 A Oh, dust --
20 Q Dust.
21 A -- oh, I thought you said --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- I wear a hearing aid.
24 Q Thats okay. I think you are doing
25 terrific.
0065
1 MR. LA SALA: Do you have the question?
2 A Not that Im aware of.
3 Q Okay. Now, at some point in time, were
4 you considered management within the Chevron
5 refinery?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And at what point in time did you --
8 were you considered management?
9 A From the day I was hired.
10 Q From the very beginning?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And did you stay as a mana -- in
13 management until you retired?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. And were there basic
16 principles that the management at Chevron adhered to
17 concerning health and safety within the refinery?
18 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
19 A Ah, if I understand your question, they
20 expressed concern about safety throughout my entire
21 career.
22 Q Okay. And would you agree as a manager
23 within the Chevron refinery, that Chevron had the
24 responsibility to transmit whatever Chevron knew
25 about the dangers in their -- in the working
0066
1 environment and their refinery to the employees?
2 MR. LA SALA: Objection, calls for
3 opinion.
4 A I -- I -- I cant speak for -- for those who
5 might have been responsible for that area of
6 interest.
7 Q Okay. Would you agree with me that
8 Chevron employees should have been told everything
9 that Chevron knew about the dangers of asbestos, if
10 they were asked to work near it?
11 MR. LA SALA: Same objection.
12 A Im -- I dont think that is something that I
13 can answer.
14 Q That wasnt one of your functions in
15 management?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. Do you know whether Chevron
18 believed it had a responsibility to ensure the
19 health of family members of Chevron refineries -- of
20 Chevron employees who could have been exposed to
21 toxic materials from the clothing of Chevron
22 employees?
23 MR. LA SALA: Same objection.
24 A It was not part of my responsibilities to
25 determine that.
0067
1 Q Am I correct, that it is your belief
2 that no one at Chevron was aware of the dangers of
3 asbestos before 1970?
4 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
5 A I can speak for myself. I was not aware of
6 it, and I am not -- I wasnt aware of other people
7 that were.
8 Q Okay. And as somebody in management
9 who was in the plant, would you have hoped to be
10 made aware before 1870, if Chevron had that kind of
11 information?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A I dont -- I was under the impression that we
14 were not aware of it before 1970.
15 Q When you say we, you mean Chevron?
16 A Me as an individual and the people that I
17 associated with at the plant.
18 Q Including other management personnel?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. And after 1970, am I correct,
21 that Chevron had safety meetings and some of the
22 safety meetings related to the dangers of asbestos?
23 A There were safety meetings throughout my
24 entire career with the corporate -- with the
25 company. Specifically I know of none that covered
0068
1 the subject prior to 1970.
2 After 1970, I really dont remember,
3 but I assume that the subject was mentioned because
4 it was generally said we will not use any more
5 insulation that had -- that contained asbestos.
6 Q Okay. Im going to get to that in a
7 second.
8 A Okay.
9 Q Am I correct, that you never saw any
10 warning signs or labels concerning the dangers of
11 asbestos before 1972?
12 A Thats correct.
13 Q Okay. And am I correct, that Chevron
14 did not have any formal notices, warnings,
15 brochures, as to how to handle dusty operations
16 before 1972?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A Ah, we had dirty jobs and such before 1970
19 that people -- the foremen would give masks to
20 people who were assigned to those jobs. And --
21 because your question was not limited to asbestos,
22 is that correct?
23 Q Right, exactly.
24 A And so, yes, we did -- did talk about that
25 when they cleaned storage tanks out and other types
0069
1 of dirty jobs.
2 Q But when it came to insulation that was
3 being installed and removed, there were no
4 instructions or warnings by Chevron to its employees
5 before 1972, true?
6 A It was left up to individual foremen to
7 analyze the need for a mask in any kind of
8 operation, and that may have included asbestos or
9 may not have --
10 Q Well, not because asbestos --
11 A -- not asbestos, I mean insulation, I should
12 say.
13 Q -- there was no warning whatsoever
14 concerning the dangers of asbestos before 1972 to
15 any Chevron employee, true?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A To the best of my knowledge, correct.
18 Q Dust suppression, such as wetting down
19 insulation, isolating asbestos with plastic sheeting
20 and roping asbestos areas off did not happen before
21 1972, true?
22 A Whether they wet them down or not, I dont
23 know, but we did not isolate them in -- as you
24 described it before 1972.
25 Q And then at some point around 1972, the
0070
1 edict came down from on high at Chevron that
2 asbestos was no longer to be used, true?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A That no asbestos was to be used in insulation.
5 Whether it was used in gasket material or not, Im
6 not familiar. I dont know that.
7 Q Okay. And what was the genesis of
8 your -- scratch that.
9 What was the reason that that edict was
10 given by Chevron that no asbestos insulation was to
11 be used any more after 1972?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Asbestos was considered a hazard.
14 Q And once it was related as a hazard,
15 the decision was made not to use it any more?
16 A Thats correct.
17 Q Okay. And did that come down in a
18 memo?
19 How was -- how did that information get
20 transferred?
21 A I really dont remember specifically how it
22 was. It was general knowledge and across the board,
23 and I learned of it from a purchasing agent who said
24 as of this date, we will not use any more insulation
25 with asbestos in it.
0071
1 Q Am I correct, that before 1972, Chevron
2 never told any contractor about the dangers of
3 asbestos?
4 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
5 A I dont know that -- what was -- I am not
6 aware of any -- of any communications between
7 Chevron representatives and contractors.
8 Q Am I correct, that before 1972, Chevron
9 never took any steps to make sure that its employees
10 would not be exposed to asbestos from the work of
11 outside contractors?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Prior to 1972, I know -- my memory is that we
14 had no discussions about asbestos in hazards in --
15 in insulation.
16 Q Okay. As far as you know, there would
17 be no reason to believe that any contractor prior to
18 1972 knew more than Chevron did about the dangers of
19 asbestos, true?
20 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
21 A I cant tell you what a contractor knows or
22 dont know.
23 None of them made that point that
24 they -- to me, that I was aware of.
25 Q Well, do you believe as management at
0072
1 the Chevron refinery, that any contractor should be
2 held responsible for exposing Chevron employees to
3 asbestos prior to 1972?
4 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
5 A I dont feel I should be making a decision
6 regarding a responsibility of a contractor.
7 Q Okay. As far as you are aware, are you
8 aware of any contractor that did any work at Chevron
9 prior to 1972 that had information on the dangers of
10 asbestos, but did not tell the employees at Chevron?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A Im not aware of that.
13 Q Okay. After 1972, am I correct, that
14 the general rule was that any time you were
15 taking -- doing a repair on a piece of equipment
16 that had insulation, you should treat it as if it
17 contained asbestos?
18 A I would assume -- I dont remember
19 specifically, but I think the answer is yes.
20 Q All right. And the procedures involved
21 after -- thereafter for removing insulation would
22 include using plastic enclosures?
23 A That was used on -- after 72. Exactly when,
24 I cant remember --
25 Q Okay.
0073
1 A -- whether it was used on minor incidental
2 things, I -- I also am not sure it did that. But on
3 major removals, it did.
4 Q And anybody who would be in the area
5 where removal was taking place would be provided
6 respirators, am I correct?
7 A The foremen provided masks to anybody who was
8 near any exposure to any dust of any sort.
9 Q Okay. And when is the first time that
10 Chevron related to anybody inside the refinery,
11 employees inside of the refinery, that exposure to
12 asbestos within a refinery could potentially cause
13 cancer?
14 A I dont know the answer. I dont remember
15 that answer to that question.
16 Q Was it after 1972?
17 A Ah, if -- we were aware of -- of asbestos in
18 insulation and it being a hazard after 1972.
19 Exactly communications, meetings, my
20 memory doesnt -- is not -- I dont have a specific
21 memory of we had a specific meeting on it and such.
22 Q When did management at your level
23 within the Perth Amboy refinery, when were you told
24 about the association between asbestos and cancer?
25 A To be honest, I dont remember any discussion
0074
1 about cancer and asbestos in my employ with Chevron.
2 I was aware of it through reading the newspapers and
3 reading about other cases, et cetera.
4 Now, they may have done it, but I dont
5 recall a specific meeting of any sort.
6 Q All right. So as you sit here today,
7 you cannot recall any specific meeting or
8 communication where Chevron informed you that
9 exposure to asbestos can cause cancer?
10 A No. I dont remember any such meeting.
11 Q All right. As you sit here today, can
12 you recall any specific communication or meeting
13 where Chevron told you or any employee that they
14 should be careful not to bring asbestos home on
15 their clothing to their family?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A No.
18 Q If Chevron was aware that there was a
19 risk to family members from exposure to asbestos on
20 a workers clothing, would you have hoped as
21 management at your level that you would have been
22 told that?
23 MR. LA SALA: Objection.
24 A I dont think I can answer that. That is a
25 sup -- Im -- thats trying to predict what someone
0075
1 else would do and say. I --
2 Q No. Im just asking about you
3 personally.
4 If Chevron had information that
5 indicated that family members could get cancer
6 because of the dust you brought home on your
7 clothing, would that have been something that you
8 would have hoped you would have been told while you
9 worked at Chevron?
10 MR. LA SALA: Same objection.
11 A I -- I think that type of a question is
12 something that I wouldnt know the answer to, and
13 I -- rather than -- rather than have somebody tell
14 me or I tell other people on --
15 Q If Chevron was aware that asbestos
16 could cause cancer during the entire time that you
17 worked there, would you have hoped that that is
18 something they would have told you?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 A You know, thats -- thats a supposition kind
21 of a question, and I can answer it indirectly by
22 saying at no time did I personally think that my
23 exposure to insulation was a problem.
24 I -- my clothes I wore, I wore suits.
25 I wore things, and I never considered that a
0076
1 problem, and so you are asking me a hypothetical
2 kind of a question and such.
3 Would I have done it different than I
4 did, I didnt go home and have it washed or dry
5 cleaned, et cetera, over the years that I worked
6 there.
7 At times when I was employed -- doing
8 inspection of drums, vessels, columns, furnaces and
9 wore -- put on coveralls, I took my clothing home,
10 and my wife washed them, and I never gave a second
11 thought to anything along the lines.
12 Did I think that was a problem?
13 No, I didnt.
14 Q Well, that wasnt my question, so let
15 me go back.
16 If Chevron was aware that asbestos
17 caused cancer during the entire time that you worked
18 there, would you have hoped they would have told you
19 that?
20 MR. LA SALA: Object to form, same
21 objection.
22 A Ah, you know, if -- I think I would
23 be -- want to know anything that would jeopardize my
24 health, all right?
25 Q Well, sir, in addition to your own
0077
1 health, at some point in time you had general
2 responsibility for the health and safety of other
3 men working in the plant, true?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. So in order to do your job
6 properly and responsibly, and I assume that thats
7 something that you took to heart, do you agree?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And you believe that it was --
10 you took the job seriously and to heart that the
11 people who worked for you depended upon you for
12 their health and safety, do we agree?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
15 Q All right.
16 If Chevron had information in its
17 possession that would indicate that the people that
18 worked for you, that you had responsibility for,
19 were at danger of getting cancer, would that have
20 been something that you would have hoped that would
21 have been related to you?
22 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
23 A I believe that I was advised of all hazards
24 that me and my men were exposed to, and -- and I
25 felt that we communicated that to the people.
0078
1 Q Im not taking issue with what you did,
2 sir --
3 A Yeah, I know.
4 Q -- what Im asking you is --
5 A Well, youre asking me a theoretical question
6 that I really dont feel Im in a position to
7 answer.
8 Q Sir, you are aware, are you not aware,
9 that Chevron knew about the dangers of asbestos and
10 refineries going back to the 1930s, are you not
11 aware of that?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Im not aware of that.
14 Q So for the entire time that you worked
15 at Chevron and you were responsible for the health
16 and well-being of the people who worked under you,
17 they never informed you that they were aware
18 specifically of the dangers of using asbestos in
19 refineries going back to the 1930s?
20 MR. LA SALA: Same objection.
21 A I was not aware. That is correct. I was not
22 aware of it.
23 Q Okay. As a person in charge of -- or
24 partially responsible for the health and safety of
25 employees, am I correct, that you were not aware
0079
1 that Chevron was aware -- knew that asbestos could
2 cause cancer going back to the 1940s?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A I was not aware of that.
5 Q Is that something you would have hoped
6 that you would have been made aware of, if it was
7 true?
8 MR. LA SALA: Same objection.
9 A Well, if it -- if it was true, yes.
10 Q Okay. Sir, are you aware that in other
11 refineries, not in Perth Amboy, they took steps to
12 make sure that people who are exposed to asbestos
13 were properly protected going back to the 1940s, did
14 you know that?
15 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Did you know that they treated other
18 people in other refineries, including management,
19 with more respect in terms of health and safety,
20 than they did with the employees at Chevron going
21 back to the 1940s?
22 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
23 A Ah, would you repeat that? Im not sure I got
24 the full question. All right?
25 Q Yes.
0080
1 Would you agree, sir --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- that as a -- as an employee and
4 manager in the Perth Amboy facility, that you were
5 entitled to the same knowledge and respect as
6 Chevron would give to an employee say in a Texas
7 refinery or a California refinery?
8 MR. LA SALA: Object to form, opinion.
9 A Ah, I would like to know any hazards that we
10 were exposed to, yes.
11 Q And would you be concerned to find out
12 that Chevron took steps to protect employees in
13 other refineries that it knowingly did not take in
14 the Perth Amboy refinery?
15 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
16 A Well, I would have to know the details of it
17 more than you described it to answer your
18 question --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- I think its too broad of a question for me
21 to answer.
22 Q All right. What I am going to do is
23 take a break, and I am going to go through some of
24 the evidence and see where we are. Okay?
25 A Okay.
0081
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
2 11:35 a.m.
3 (Recess taken.)
4 MR. PLACITELLA: I am going to have
5 that marked next.
6 (Dust Producing Operations marked
7 Exhibit P-3 for identification.)
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
9 record at 11:50 a.m.
10 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
11 Q Mr. Wirkowski --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- Chevron, before it was known as
14 Chevron, was called California Oil. Is that true?
15 A California Oil Company.
16 Q Right. And California Oil Company was
17 incorporated in the State of California, do you
18 recall that? That is where it came from?
19 A It was a hundred percent subsidiary. I dont
20 know where it was incorporated.
21 Q And California Oil had a refinery in
22 California, correct?
23 A Standard Oil of California did. I dont think
24 California Oil Company did.
25 Q Well, first it was -- how did it go?
0082
1 It was Standard Oil of California, then
2 California Oil, then Chevron. Is that how it went?
3 A Yes.
4 You know, very briefly, when Chevron
5 built up the Barbara Asphalt Place in Perth Amboy,
6 they had the antitrust laws that did not allow them
7 to use the name Standard. Therefore, their
8 subsidiaries were named differently. And then when
9 that got changed, then eventually they changed their
10 name. They couldnt use the word Standard, so
11 they went to Chevron, just like Exxon was Esso,
12 Standard Oil, et cetera, and you had all of the
13 different parts of the Standard brands.
14 You had Amoco, and you had Mobil and so
15 on, and Texas and such, and they all had -- they had
16 different names until they then decided to have a
17 universal name. They changed their name from
18 Standard Oil of California to Chevron.
19 Q And when they were Standard Oil of
20 California and had a refinery in California, they
21 were subject to the laws and regulations of
22 California, do we agree?
23 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
24 A Ah, who was subject to the laws?
25 Q Standard Oil of California.
0083
1 MR. LA SALA: Objection.
2 A Yes, I would assume so. I dont know.
3 Q Now, Ive had marked for identification
4 as P-2 the 1936 regulations for the State of
5 California concerning Protection of Exposure to Dust
6 Including Asbestos. Have you ever seen these
7 before?
8 Show it to Mr. LaSala first.
9 MR. LA SALA: Yes.
10 Object to form.
11 You can look at it and answer, sir.
12 A I never saw these.
13 Q Did you know that there were
14 regulations in place that Chevron was aware of going
15 back to the 1930s that required protection of
16 workers within the refineries from asbestos?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A When?
19 Q 1930s.
20 A No.
21 Q Did you know there were regulations in
22 effect that required the protection of workers
23 families from exposure to asbestos used in
24 refineries?
25 A No.
0084
1 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
2 Q Did you know that back to the 1930s,
3 the regulations in California required Chevron to
4 protect workers by substituting less hazardous
5 products for more hazardous products?
6 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
7 A No.
8 Q Were you aware going back to the 1930s,
9 that Chevron was clearly aware of the need to
10 isolate dusty processes from all of the other
11 employees in the plant?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Dust, Im not aware of any specific rules on
14 that. We used common sense when it came to dusty
15 areas, and as I said earlier, our foremen would give
16 out face masks when the conditions would warrant it.
17 Q Well, were you aware that Chevron was
18 clearly aware in the 1930s of the need to protect
19 workers families from toxic substances brought home
20 on their clothing?
21 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
22 A No.
23 Q Were you aware that in the 1930s, the
24 regulations governing the California refinery
25 required showers and change rooms to prevent
0085
1 families from being exposed to toxins within the
2 refinery?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A I was not -- my responsibilities didnt get
5 into that area, and I was not aware of when they --
6 when they built the Perth Amboy refinery, they built
7 showers and such, and whether that was because of
8 regulations or their own decision, I dont know.
9 Q Mr. Horvath, was -- well, scratch that.
10 You started at Chevron when?
11 A July 7th, 1947.
12 Q Okay. And do you know that two years
13 later, Chevron and other members of the petroleum
14 industry had reached the conclusion that insulators,
15 pipefitters and laborers were at risk of getting
16 lung cancer from asbestos --
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 Q -- inside of the refinery?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 A No.
21 MR. PLACITELLA: We will mark this as
22 P-3 for identification.
23 Is this 3?
24 MR. LA SALA: The last one was 2. I
25 dont remember 1. I dont know if you made reference
0086
1 to 1 or not.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: 1 was the notice.
3 MR. LA SALA: Oh, okay.
4 (Dust Producing Operations marked
5 Exhibit P-3 for identification.)
6 Q I am going to show you what has been
7 marked P-3 for identification, entitled, Dust
8 Producing Operations in the Production of Petroleum
9 Products and Associated Activities by Roy Bonson,
10 dated July 1937.
11 As management at Chevron, have you ever
12 seen a copy of that before today?
13 A No.
14 Q And this report, sir, I will represent
15 to you was testified to by a representative of
16 Chevron as being in their files.
17 This report pertains to a study done at
18 the Bayway refinery. Do you know where that is?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right. That was Standard Oil of
21 New Jersey, true?
22 A That is -- originally, yes.
23 Q Okay. That was the sister to Standard
24 of -- Oil of California, right, before the breakup?
25 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
0087
1 A Ah, they were all part of Rockefeller Standard
2 Oil.
3 Q Right.
4 And the Bayway refinery is how far away
5 from the Chevron refinery in Perth Amboy?
6 A Oh, about 15 miles.
7 Q And is there any reason to believe that
8 the basic operations of the Bayway refinery in terms
9 of producing refinery products is different than
10 Chevrons?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to the form.
12 A Basically they all used the same processes.
13 Q Now, could you just -- I want to show
14 you a couple of things.
15 Can you go to the first page where it
16 says Forward?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Im not going to go through the whole
19 thing, but this report that talks about the dangers
20 of asbestos exposure, in addition to other things in
21 a refinery in New Jersey, was never shown to you
22 while you worked for Chevron or California Oil,
23 true?
24 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
25 A That is true.
0088
1 Q Even though it was your responsibility
2 to have the health and well-being of the men
3 employed under you, who may be exposed to asbestos,
4 this was not something that was shared with you,
5 although it was in the files of Chevron, true?
6 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
7 A No, it wasnt shared with me. Where it was,
8 and who had it, I dont know.
9 Q Okay. I take it, you were never told
10 then that dust counts were actually done back in the
11 1930s showing that people who were working with 85
12 percent magnesia, the same product you testified
13 before, were exposed to excessive levels of
14 asbestos --
15 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
16 Q -- true?
17 A True.
18 Q And I take it, that you were never told
19 that any time you saw visible dust in the air, that
20 that was an indication of danger to a worker --
21 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
22 Q -- true?
23 A True.
24 Q Ah, I put up on the screen a picture.
25 Does that picture look familiar to you?
0089
1 A That could be the Chevron cat cracker.
2 Q All right. And would that -- this
3 accurately reflect what a cat cracker would look
4 like?
5 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
6 A In general, yes.
7 Q All right.
8 And am I correct, that basically all
9 that piping all over the cat cracker would have been
10 insulated with asbestos?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A A significant portion, yes.
13 Q All right. And between every flange in
14 that pack -- in that pipe would have been asbestos
15 gaskets, right?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A There would be a gasket. I dont know if --
18 dont know the composition of the material.
19 Q And the vertical areas in this picture
20 going up some 300 feet that are depicted in white,
21 that was all asbestos insulation, was it not?
22 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
23 A Im not sure. I assume it was. I dont know
24 that as a fact.
25 Q And when somebody was on the very top
0090
1 of that pic -- on the top of this piece of equipment
2 and knocked a piece of asbestos off it with a
3 chisel, it would fall down to the areas below, true?
4 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
5 A Ah, Im not sure where you are talking about.
6 Q All the way up at the top.
7 A Well, there was an elevator, and that may have
8 been the elevator shaft, and I am not sure if that
9 is the case. If it was the elevator shaft, it was
10 not insulated, if you are talking about the one on
11 the left there.
12 Q Okay. The --
13 A The reactor on the right was insulated.
14 Q Okay. Now, when the asbestos was not
15 knocked off these elevated areas, it floated down to
16 the people below it, true?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A They had -- as you can see, there were staging
19 workplaces, and you would often have them go on the
20 platforms, permanent or temporary ones.
21 Q Well, what about -- what happened to
22 the asbestos when it was being knocked off with a
23 hammer, and the dust that was generated when that
24 happened, would that go on the platform or would
25 that rain down on the people below them?
0091
1 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
2 A I cant answer that question. I dont know
3 how -- how far dust blows or not blows.
4 Q Okay. I am going to -- I will move to
5 the next thing.
6 Sir, are you aware of the Standard Oil
7 bulletin? Have you ever seen it?
8 A I believe I have, yes.
9 Q All right. And the Standard Oil
10 bulletin come -- goes to who?
11 A Employees.
12 Q Of Chevron?
13 A Of Chevron.
14 Q Yes.
15 Are you aware, sir, that in the
16 Standard Oil bulletin, Chevron actually had pictures
17 showing that it was okay for workers to wear their
18 work clothes home to their families?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 A I dont know. That was a bulletin that was
21 discontinued some years ago, and -- and I dont
22 remember the articles in them.
23 Q Well, you see this picture here, sir,
24 from 1936?
25 A Yes, I see the picture.
0092
1 Q This is the year of the regulations
2 that I showed you before. Remember that, 1936?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. You see this man here? He is
5 wearing his work clothes home, isnt he?
6 A He is wearing a pair of coveralls.
7 Q Right.
8 And hes got his lunch box in his
9 hand --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- and his daughter is about to come
12 and give him a hug, right?
13 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
14 A Looks like.
15 Q And if he had asbestos, she would be
16 hugging the asbestos, too, wouldnt she?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A I cant answer that question.
19 Q Okay. Now, am I correct, sir, that
20 Chevron conducted no tests to determine the levels
21 of asbestos exposure in the refinery before 1972?
22 A Not that Im aware of.
23 Q Okay. And -- but Chevron was clearly
24 aware, was it not, that if you could see dust in the
25 air, that you needed to do the dust counts in order
0093
1 to protect employees. They knew that before 1972,
2 didnt they?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A Not that Im aware of.
5 Q Well, sir, Im going to show you a
6 videotape of a witness that I took in this room who
7 was a hygienist for Chevron, and I am going to ask
8 you some questions about whether this information
9 was ever known to you. Okay?
10 A Okay.
11 (The following takes place on a
12 videotape:
13 QUESTION: Would you agree that the
14 appropriate response of an industrial
15 hygienist witnessing asbestos-containing
16 visible dust would be to make a study of it
17 and ensure adequate controls for employees
18 safety?
19 Mr. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 ANSWER: I need you to repeat that question.
21 QUESTION: Sure.
22 Would you agree that the appropriate
23 response of an industrial hygienist witnessing
24 asbestos-containing visible dust in a plant
25 would make a study and ensure adequate
0094
1 controls for employees safety, if necessary?
2 ANSWER: I think that would be a reasonable
3 approach.
4 (Videotape turned off.)
5 Q Sir, were you aware that prior to 1972,
6 that Chevron knew that dust studies should be done
7 inside the refinery to test exposure to asbestos and
8 other dust?
9 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
10 A Im not aware of any.
11 Q Are you aware, sir, that prior, way
12 back to the 1950s when Mr. Horvath started working
13 as a crane operator, that Chevron actually had the
14 capability of doing asbestos dust sampling?
15 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
16 A No. Im not aware of it. I didnt even know
17 they had dust studies in those days.
18 Q All right. Im going to show you the
19 testimony here of Mr. Dryden who was the hygienist,
20 and I am going to ask you questions about whether
21 this information was made known to you.
22 (The following takes place on a
23 videotape:
24 QUESTION: Chevron -- Chevron had the
25 capability of doing airborne test sampling by
0095
1 the -- by the fifties, do you agree?
2 ANSWER: They had very primitive means
3 of doing it at that time, yes.
4 QUESTION: But they did have it?
5 ANSWER: They had it, yes.
6 (End of videotape)
7 Sir, as management in the Perth Amboy
8 refinery, did you know that Chevron had the
9 capability of doing dust studies in the plant going
10 back to the 1950s?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A I am not aware of anything regarding dust
13 studies.
14 Q Am I correct, sir, that the first dust
15 studies that were ever done in the Perth Amboy
16 refinery were after 1972?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A I was not involved, and at this point in time
19 I dont remember anything about dust studies ever.
20 Q Okay. Sir, I put a slide up, and the
21 slide says: Chevrons decision not to protect
22 Mrs. Horvath. Chevron protected workers in other
23 refineries, but not Perth Amboy.
24 Do you see that?
25 A Yeah, I see that slide.
0096
1 Q Okay. Is that true?
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 A Im not aware of what they did in other
4 refineries. I never worked in any of the other
5 refineries.
6 Q Were you aware that in other
7 refineries, they provided laundry services, so that
8 employees families would be protected from any
9 toxic material that was contained on the employees
10 clothing?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A Im not familiar with any practices regarding
13 laundry at other refineries.
14 At Perth Amboy and very dirty jobs, we
15 did supply coveralls.
16 Q Did you have laundry services, so that
17 employees would not bring asbestos-laden clothing
18 home to their families?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 A Ah, on their -- on their individual clothing?
21 Q Yes.
22 A We had no laundry service that I am aware
23 of --
24 Q Okay.
25 A -- for that -- for individual personal
0097
1 clothing.
2 Q Are you aware, sir, that in other
3 refineries, workers were made to take showers before
4 they went home in order to protect their families?
5 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
6 A Im not familiar with what was done in other
7 refineries.
8 And as I told you earlier, we required
9 that when they worked in cleaning lead storage
10 tanks, they were required to take showers and wear
11 special uniforms, and we laundered -- the company
12 had those laundered.
13 Q Sir, Chevron had the resources and the
14 knowledge to protect its employees and their
15 families, if it wanted to. Do you agree with that?
16 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
17 A Had the -- Im not aware that they had the
18 resources or the knowledge.
19 Q Im going to show -- Im going to show
20 you Mr. Drydens testimony and see if this is the
21 first time you knew this.
22 (The following takes place on a
23 videotape:
24 QUESTION: And Chevron was really
25 up-to-date on all of the information
0098
1 concerning the things and the products
2 that were used in its operations, would you
3 agree with that?
4 ANSWER: Yes.
5 QUESTION: Okay. And Chevron had the
6 money and the resources to ensure that any
7 toxic or unsafe material used or generated in
8 its plants would not be carried home to
9 their -- home to their workers families,
10 true?
11 Mr. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 ANSWER: Certainly had the resources
13 and money, yes.
14 (End of videotape.)
15 Would you agree with that, sir, Mr.
16 Drydens testimony, that Chevron certainly had the
17 resources and the money to protect workers families
18 if it wanted to?
19 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
20 A Chevron was a profitable corporation, and I
21 assume they could afford -- they could afford it, if
22 it was required and necessary.
23 Q Sir, are you aware of any evidence that
24 Chevron employees in Perth Amboy were given the same
25 respect in terms of information on health and safety
0099
1 related to asbestos that employees in other Chevron
2 refineries were given?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A I have no knowledge of what information was
5 given at other refineries, so I cannot make a
6 comparison.
7 Q Sir, I put up a slide here. I called
8 it No Warnings and No Protection.
9 Do you see that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you see in the middle Ernie Horvath?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you recognize him?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did you know his wife, Frances?
16 A No. I never met her that I know of.
17 Q Am I correct, and I have a -- I have a
18 few arrows up there. I want to ask you about a
19 couple of them.
20 Am I correct that -- and I have a
21 washing machine, that no laundry facility was ever
22 provided to Mr. Horvath to prevent him from bringing
23 asbestos-laden clothing home to his family?
24 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
25 A The only washing machines that I am aware of
0100
1 that were at Chevron were installed during a long
2 strike at the plant.
3 Q That is when the management was doing
4 the work, right?
5 A Yes, thats correct.
6 Q Okay. And am I correct, that there was
7 no danger sign that said, cancer and lung disease
8 hazard, that was there to protect Mr. Horvath or his
9 family from asbestos, true?
10 A I dont remember seeing any signs such as is
11 on the slide here regarding cancer and lung disease
12 hazard.
13 Q Okay. Now, you understand that
14 Mrs. Horvath developed a disease called
15 mesothelioma?
16 A I heard that recently only.
17 Q Do you know what that is?
18 A It is an asbestos-related disease, but I dont
19 know how it works or the details.
20 Q And do you know -- are you aware of any
21 information as you sit here today how Mrs. Horvath
22 was exposed to asbestos?
23 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
24 A Im not aware that she was exposed to
25 anything.
0101
1 Q One way or the other?
2 A What?
3 Q Do you know one way or the other
4 whether she was exposed?
5 A No, I dont.
6 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. I am going to
7 take a break, but I think I am done.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Two minutes.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: He is running out of
10 tape.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
12 12:17 p.m.
13 (Recess taken.)
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
15 record at 12:24 p.m.
16 MR. PLACITELLA: I told you I would get
17 you out of here by lunch, and that was pretty good.
18 BY MR. PLACITELLA:
19 Q As you sit here today, are you aware of
20 any instance where Ernie Horvath did not follow
21 safety procedures implemented in the plant?
22 A No, I am not.
23 Q All right. And are you aware of any
24 information that would indicate that had Ernie
25 Horvath been warned about the dangers of asbestos,
0102
1 that he would not have protected himself?
2 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
3 A Ah, Im sorry. Would you --
4 Q Are you aware of any information as you
5 sit here -- scratch that. I wont ask that
6 question.
7 Is today --
8 A Oh, okay.
9 Q -- the first day ever that you found
10 out that Chevron knew about the dangers of asbestos
11 before 1970?
12 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
13 A Ah, I read an interrogatory -- an
14 interrogatory that -- a couple of days ago.
15 Q What is that, that you read? I thought
16 you only read the two transcripts.
17 A It was on the -- on a Dryden one.
18 Q Oh, you read Drydens testimony?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Oh, I didnt know that.
21 And was there anything in Drydens
22 testimony that you took issue with?
23 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
24 A Ah, I skimmed over it, and I didnt have
25 any -- any differences or opinions on it.
0103
1 Q Okay. Before reading Mr. Drydens
2 testimony -- you understood he was a representative
3 of Chevron, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He was their industrial hygienist,
6 true?
7 A Thats -- thats what it said. I never met
8 the man. I dont know him.
9 Q But he didnt work at the Perth Amboy
10 refinery, true?
11 A True.
12 Q And he testified, did he not, that
13 there were procedures in place to protect employees
14 from exposure to asbestos in other refineries that
15 were not provided to Chevron before 1972 in Perth
16 Amboy, true?
17 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
18 A I -- I skimmed it. I didnt read it in that
19 detail, so...
20 Q Before reading Mr. Drydens testimony,
21 was that the first time when you read that
22 testimony, that you found out that Chevron was
23 knowledgeable about the dangers of asbestos before
24 1972?
25 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
0104
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Was -- before -- did you know
3 before reading Mr. Drydens testimony, that Chevron
4 was aware about the relationships between asbestos
5 and cancer going all the way back to the 1940s?
6 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
7 A No. I -- I was not aware that there was any
8 knowledge.
9 Q All right. Do you have any reason to
10 doubt Mr. Drydens testimony?
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A I have no knowledge about him or what he
13 testified about, so I cant make comment on it
14 intelligently.
15 Q Is -- is -- before a couple of days ago
16 the first time -- well, a couple of days ago when
17 you read Mr. Drydens transcript, was that the first
18 time that you found out that in other refineries
19 owned by Chevron, they had procedures in place to
20 protect families from toxic substances?
21 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And when you read all of that for the
24 first time, knowing that you were charged with the
25 responsibility of helping -- preserving the health
0105
1 and safety of men that worked under you, how did
2 that make you feel?
3 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
4 A In all honesty, I think I would have to talk
5 to Dryden extensively before I could answer your
6 question intelligently.
7 Q Well, was there anything that I asked
8 Mr. Dryden -- didnt ask Mr. Dryden that you want to
9 ask him?
10 A Ah, I --
11 MR. LA SALA: Object to form.
12 A -- I think -- I think there are -- there are
13 studies made all of the time in all fields, some of
14 which are substantiated, some are dropped sooner or
15 later, so I think Id have to know more than I know
16 about that to be -- to answer that intelligently.
17 Q Okay. I think that is a fair answer.
18 A All right.
19 Q I think that is the only questions I
20 have for you --
21 A Okay.
22 Q -- and thank you for taking the time,
23 and I hope we get some sun.
24 A I hope so, too. Ive got ten yards of mulch
25 to...
0106
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
2 testimony today, June 18th. The time is 12:29 p.m.)
3 (The videotape deposition was concluded
4 at 12:29 p.m.)
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0107
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, a Certified Court
4 Reporter, Certified Realtime Court Reporter, and
5 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, do hereby
6 certify that prior to the commencement of the
7 examination, the witness, EDWARD WIRKOWSKI, was duly
8 sworn by me to testify the truth, the whole truth,
9 and nothing but the truth.
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing
11 is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony
12 as taken stenographically by and before me at the
13 time, place and date hereinbefore set forth.
14 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
15 a relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel to
16 any of the parties to this action, and that I am
17 neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or
18 counsel, and that I am not financially interested in
19 the action.
20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
21 PHYLLIS T. LEWIS, C.C.R. XI01333 C.R.C.R. 30XR15300
Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
22 My commission expires 11/5/2010.
This transcript was prepared in accordance with
23 NJAC 13:43-5.9.