Plaintiff Details Asbestos Exposure at Ciba New Jersey

SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION : MIDDLESEX COUNTY
DOCKET NO. W-037668-88
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – :
DANIEL VASSALLI and,
CECELIA VASSALLI, his wife;
Plaintiffs, : DEPOSITION UNDER
vs : ORAL EXAMINATION
A.C. & S., INC., et al., OF
Defendants. : DANIEL VASSALLI
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -

T R A N S C R I P T of the deposition of the
witness called for Oral Examination in the above
captioned matter, said deposition being taken pursuant
to Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by
and before CAROL G. DeBARTOLO, a Notary Public and
Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of New Jersey
at the QUALITY INN, 815 Route 37 W., Toms River, New
Jersey, on Monday, February 28, 1994, commencing at
11:00 in the forenoon.

BRODY & GEISER
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 77 Hamilton Avenue
Fords, New Jersey 08863 (908) 738-8555
JOB # 402285
A P P E A R A N C E S:
WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZERBY: LYNNE M. KIZIS, ESQ.,
Attorneys for the Plaintiffs
NOWELL, AMOROSO & MATTIABY: JEANNE DAMGEN, ESQ.,
Attorneys for the Defendant, Ingersoll Rand
MATTSON, MADDEN & POLITOBY: EDWARD G. MADDEN, ESQ.,
Attorneys for Defendant, Chem Flow Corporation
TUCKER, BIEGEL & GOLDSTEINBY: PERRY A. GANDELMAN, ESQ.,
Attorneys for Defendant, Owens Corning FiberglasCorporation
CHASAN, LEYNER, TARRANT & LAMPARELLO
BY: KIM R. ONSDORFF, ESQ.,Attorneys for Defendant, Robert A. Keasbey Company
LAW OFFICES of R. PATRICK WHITE
BY: GARY J. CHESTER, ESQ.,Attorneys for Defendant, Woolsulate Corp.
MEGARGEE, YOUNGBLOOD, FRANKLIN & CORCORAN
BY: THOMAS M. OLEARY, ESQ.,Attorneys for Defendant, H. H. Robertson Co.
HACK, PIRO, ODAY, MERKLINGER, WALLACE & McKENNA
BY: ROBERT G. ALENCEWICZ, ESQ.Attorneys for Defendant, The Johansen Company
GOLDSTEIN, TILL & LITE
BY: DONNA LAVISTA SCHWARTZ, ESQ.Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American Corporation
BORRUS, GOLDIN, FOLEY, VIGNUOLO, HYMAN & STAHL
BY: MICHAEL L. MARCUS, ESQ.Attorneys for Defendant, Burns & Roe Enterprises, Inc.
EVANS, OSBORNE & KREIZMAN
BY: KEVIN E. HOFFMAN, ESQ.Attorneys for Defendant, Mooney Brothers Corp.

OZZARD, WHARTON,BY: WENDY WIEBALK, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant, Porter Hayden Company
McCARTER & ENGLISHBY: JEANNE LAHIFF, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendants, A. C. & S., Inc., KeeneCorporation and Owens-Illinois, Inc.

I N D E X
WITNESS NAME PAGE NO.
DANIEL VASSALLI
Direct by Ms. Damgen 5 Cross by Mr. Hoffman 78
Cross by Mr. Madden 88 Cross by Mr. Onsdorff 89
Cross by Ms. Lahiff 97 Cross by Mr. Gandelman 101
Cross by Mr. Chester 106 Cross by Mr. Marcus 110
Recross by Mr. Hoffman 110

E X H I B I T S
EXHIBIT NO DESCRIPTION PAGE NO:
D-1 Certification to amended answers to interrogatories 12

MS. KIZIS: Lynne Kizis.
MS. DAMGEN: Jeanne Damgen for defendant,
Ingersoll Rand.
MS. KIZIS: Let the record reflect that
Im taking Mr. Vassalli out of the room.
The defense counsel are going to put
their appearances on the record at the
reporters request.
MS. SCHWARTZ: Donna Lavista Schwartz,
Goldstein, Till and Lite for Rapid American.
MR. ALENCEWICZ: Robert Alencewicz,
Hack, Piro, ODay, Merklinger, Wallace & McKenna
for Johansen Company.
MR. OLEARY: Tom OLeary from Megargee,
Youngblood, Franklin & Corcoran for H. R.
Robertson.
MR. CHESTER: Gary Chester, Law Offices
of R. Patrick White for defendant Woolsulate.
MR. GANDELMAN: Perry Gandelman, Tucker,
Biegel & Goldstein for Owens Corning.
MR. ONSDORFF: Kim Onsdorff, Chasan,
Leyner, Tarrant & Lamparello for Robert A.
Keasbey Company.
MR. MADDEN: Edward G. Madden Jr.,
Mattson, Madden & Polito for Chem Flow.
MS. DAMGEN: Jeanne Damgen for Ingersoll
Rand.
MS. KIZIS: Let the record reflect we
are back in the room.
D A N I E L V A S S A L L I,
Having been first duly sworn according
to law, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. DAMGEN:
Q My name is Jeanne Damgen. Im an
attorney and I represent one of the defendants in your
lawsuit.
Can you hear me okay?
A Yes.
Q We are here today to take your
deposition.
And I realize in 1990 you also underwent a
deposition; but because it was so long ago Im going to
go through all the rules again with you just to make
sure.
You are under oath. You just took an oath and
you are expected to tell the truth as you know it.
If you dont know the answer to something,
please just tell me you dont know. Thats a perfectly
acceptable answer. Please do not guess. It doesnt
help anybody, including yourself.
If you want to give us an estimate, if you are
estimating distance or time or something like that, you
can do that; but just tell me you are estimating.
When you respond to an answer, you have to
respond verbally as opposed to shaking your head or
saying Um-hum (Yes), like you were just doing, because
the court reporter has to take down words.
Do you understand that?
A Yes.
Q If you dont understand one of my
questions, please tell me that and I will put the
question in another format.
If your attorney makes an objection, please
refrain from answering the question until your attorney
places the objection on the record and then shell tell
you whether or not you should answer that question.
Okay?
A Yes.
Q There are other attorneys in the room,
so we would appreciate it if you could try to speak up
as loud as you can.
And, most importantly, if you need to take a
break at any time, just please tell me and well stop.
Okay?
A Yes.
Q Are you on any medication right now?
A Yes.
Q What are you taking?
A Percocet. Zantac. Im taking a thyroid
medication, Synthroid its called. And Im taking a
sleeping pill, Restoril, I think its called.
Q Did you take that today, the Restoril?
A I took it last night. Its a sleeping pill.
I took a Percocet this morning and I took one at
three oclock this morning along with the stomach pill.
Q Is that the Zantac?
A Zantac.
Q You took that at three oclock in the
morning?
A Yes.
Q And what about the thyroid medication?
A I took that this morning.
Q What time?
A About 6:30.
Q Is there any other medication you
currently are taking?
A No.
Q Do you feel that any of the medication
that you are taking affects your ability to understand
my questions?
A No, it does not affect me.
Q Okay. And do you feel any of the
medication affects your ability to testify here today?
A No.
Q What I want to do initially is just ask
you some up-dated questions from the last time that you
were deposed.
Last time you were deposed, in August of 1990,
you were taking some ulcer medication on a daily basis.
Do you still take that?
A Yes.
Q Thats –
A Thats Zantac. I was taking Tagamet; but they
changed it to Zantac. Its also ulcer medication.
Q And since all of 90 to today had you
been taking ulcer medication on a daily basis?
A Pardon?
Q From your last deposition in 1990 until
today, were you taking medication for your ulcer on a
daily basis?
A Yes.
Q Are all your children still in good
health?
A Yes.
Q Great. And how many grandchildren do
you have?
A Three.
Q How old are they?
A My granddaughter is going to be 16. And my
other two grandchildren, the oldest one is going to be
13 and the other one is going to be eight in August.
Q Okay. And are all your grandchildren in
good health?
A Yes.
Q Other than your wife, is anyone
financially dependent upon you today?
A No.
Q How is your wifes health?
A Fair.
Q Does she have any medical conditions?
A She has a back problem, has an eye problem and
shes in her seventies. She is in fair condition.
Q Okay.
A Physically.
Q How old is she?
A 71.
Q And how old are you today?
A 69.
Q Other than your wifes back and eye
problem, does she have any other health problems?
A No.
Q The last time you told us you had one
brother and three sisters.
Are they still all alive?
A Yes.
Q And how are your siblings health today?
A You are speaking of my or my wifes?
Q You. Your brothers and sister. How are
their health?
A Good. Good health.
Q Does anyone in your blood family suffer
from any form of cancer?
A No. No one.
Q How about any lung disease?
A Refer to the other question on my — how many
sisters do I have?
Q I think the last time you said you had
three sisters.
A No. I have two sisters.
Q Okay.
A One sister passed away. My older sister.
Q When did she die?
A Two years ago.
Q And what was the cause of her death?
A Brain tumor. And I think there was lung cancer
involved also.
Q What was her name?
A Mary Turo. T – U – R – O.
Q Okay. Did Mary smoke during her life?
A Yes.
Q Did she smoke?
A Almost until she passed away. She smoked
Camels.
Q Do you know when she started smoking?
A I would say at least 35 years ago.
Q When the two of you were living in the
same house, when you were younger, did your sister
smoke then?
A No.
Q Other than Mary, does anyone else in
your family, related to you by blood, have lung
problems.
A No.
Q Since your last deposition, have you
resumed smoking at all, cigarette smoking?
A No, never.
Q And I believe you testified last time
that one of your sons was smoking last time.
Does he smoke today?
A Yes.
Q What is that sons name?
A Daniel F. Vassalli.
Q Does he smoke around you?
A No. He is in California.
Q When did he go to California?
A About three years ago.
Q Do any of your other children smoke?
A No.
Q And your wife does not smoke. Correct?
A No. Never has.
MS. DAMGEN: Would you mark this.
(D-1 marked for identification.)
Q Mr. Vassalli, this has been marked D-1
for identification.
A Pardon? I didnt hear you.
Q This document has been marked D-1 for
identification. And what it is, is a certification to
amended answers to interrogatories.
Is that your signature?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember signing this?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Do you know when you signed this?
Its not dated.
A I do believe it was in 92 or 93. I dont
remember exactly.
MS. KIZIS: If I could just clarify
something.
The questions that shes asking you about
are not the first ones that you did. They are
the second updated answers to the questions that
you did.
Did you understand that?
THE WITNESS: No, I didnt understand
that.
MS. KIZIS: Okay. The second set of
questions that you answered, how long ago did
you do that?
THE WITNESS: Sometime — more, I would
say — rephrase that.
MS. KIZIS: Do you remember, for
example, providing updated information about
your medical condition?
THE WITNESS: Um-hum (Yes).
MS. KIZIS: Do you remember giving these
answers?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. KIZIS: When did you give these
answers?
THE WITNESS: I think it was in 1993;
but Im not positive.
MS. KIZIS: How long ago.
THE WITNESS: In 1993.
MS. KIZIS: Never mind.
THE WITNESS: I cant help you.
MS. DAMGEN: Thats okay, Mr. Vassalli.
Q At some point in time you got back in
touch with your lawyers or they got back in touch with
you and you sat down and you gave them further
information about your medical condition. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And you also gave them more information
about your work history. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Im going to talk now just about your
work history.
When you sat down with your lawyers the second
time and gave them information about your work history,
had anything happened to refresh your memory so that
you remembered products that you didnt remember three
years ago?
MS. KIZIS: Im going to object just to
the extent that the question may call for
information covered by the attorney client
privilege.
You can answer her question if you can;
but I will stop you if you are saying things
that you dont need to say. Okay.
THE WITNESS: I just gave it more
thought and I happened to think about different
things.
Q Mr. Vassalli, you have given some
information in your amended interrogatory answers about
pumps?
A Yes.
Q Im going to ask you specifically now.
Last time, at your other deposition, you didnt testify
at all about pumps.
What, if anything, prompted your memory that you
recall pumps now as opposed to the fact that you
couldnt recall them three years ago.
Did you review anything? Did you talk to a
former co-worker?
A No. I just kept thinking about it and it came
to my mind that we did work on pumps.
Condensate pumps and different kinds of things.
Q Do you remember when you first
remembered this last time working on pumps?
A Not specifically, no.
Q Your interrogatory answers, the amended
ones, do not indicate where you worked on pumps. What
work site did you work at with pumps?
A In Celanese and Ciba Geigy mainly.
Q Both of those sites?
A Yes, both places.
Q All right. We are going to stick to
Celanese right now.
You worked there from 1961 to 1966. Is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q And tell me what you recall about pumps
at that site?
A We used to take the pumps apart if they werent
working properly. Some of them were hooked up with
unions. Some of them were with flanges.
And we had to take them apart and put them on
the work bench and work them over and make them work.
Change the impellers or change the packing.
Whatever was involved to make them work again and
reinstall them.
Put all new gaskets and whatever was required.
Unions or whatever.
Q When you were at Celanese, how often did
you do work with pumps?
A Whenever we were told to see what was happening
on this particular job site, what wasnt working right
and make it work. Not a specific time. Once in a
while we had a routine where we would check them, but
not always.
Q How often would you have a routine? Was
that once a year? Once a month?
A I would say ones a year.
Q Now when you said you had a routine,
what does that mean? You were told to check all the
pumps to make sure they were working one time a year?
A Yes.
Q Did you also have to check all the other
equipment in the facility?
A Yes.
Q How many pumps were located at Celanese?
A You mean as far as a number?
Q Yes.
A I cant say. They were mostly in crawl spaces
and stuff. I would say at least eight, ten.
Q Okay. Were they located in any specific
building?
A They were in buildings. They were in the pilot
plant. They were in crawl spaces underneath the
building.
Q How many buildings were at Celanese?
A It was a pilot plant and one big building.
Q Do you know what that was called that
big building? Did it have a name?
A Research and Development.
Q Were there pumps in that building?
A We had a boiler room in the building and there
were pumps located there.
Q Okay. Do you mean there was a boiler
room in the Research and Development building?
A No.
Q All right. The boiler room was a
separate building?
A Yes.
Q We have Research and Development, a
boiler room and a pilot plant?
A Yes.
Q Were there any other buildings at
Celanese when you were there?
A I dont remember.
Q Were there pumps in the Research and
Development building?
A I think they were in the crawl spaces.
Q Do you know how many pumps were in the
crawl spaces in that building?
A No. I cant recall.
Q Okay. Were there pumps in the boiler
room?
A Yes.
Q How many, if you recall?
A I cant give you specific number. I dont
recall.
Q Can you give me an estimation?
A At least four.
Q Okay. And were there pumps in the pilot
plant?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall how many were in that
building?
A I would guess about the same amount.
Q Well, we dont want you to guess.
A I would say its the same amount. This is
sometime ago.
Q Okay. I understand that. The pumps in
the Research and Development building that were in the
crawl spaces, did you actually work on those pumps?
A Yes.
Q And on those pumps did you perform all
the duties that you told me about earlier? You changed
impellers, changed packing, put in gaskets and unions?
A Replacing them, yes.
Q Okay. Do you recall the manufacturer of
the pumps in the Research and Development building?
A It was Ingersoll Rand. Worthington. I dont
know if there was Crane. There were several. I dont
know all of them. But I recall those.
Q Ingersoll Rand, Worthington and Crane?
A Yes.
Q Now Im just concerned with Research and
Development, okay?
A Yes.
Q And you remember those three in that
building, correct?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Did you work on all three pumps in that
building?
A At different times, yes.
Q Did the three pumps — strike that.
How many Ingersoll Rand pumps were there in the
Research and Development building?
A I cant recall.
Q Do you recall how many Worthington
pumps?
A No.
Q How about Crane?
A I cant recall. There may have been others; but
I dont remember by name.
Q Okay.
A Its sometime ago.
Q Can you recall specifically what you did
on the Ingersoll Rand pump in the Research and
Development building?
A Any time we took them apart we had to work on
the impellers, take them apart from where they were
located, bring them to the shop on the bench and work
on them.
Do whatever had to be done to them. And replace
them.
Q Replace the entire pump?
A Yes. Replace the bump to where, you know, from
where I took it. After we repaired it.
Q And do you recall specifically what you
did on the Worthington pump in the Research and
Development building?
A Basically the same things.
Q Is there anything different that you did
on the Worthington that you didnt do on the Ingersoll?
A I dont recall.
Q Okay. And how about the Crane? Do you
recall specifically what you did on that pump?
A No.
Q Do you believe that you were exposed to
asbestos while working on the pumps in the Research and
Development building?
A Yes.
Q Okay. How were you exposed to asbestos?
A There was covering on the lines to the pumps.
And taking apart the gaskets and the flanges and
replacing them or breaking a union. However they were
hooked up we had to take them apart.
Q Anything else that you recall?
A No, thats about it.
Q Now you said there was coverings on the
lines leading to the pumps. Did you do anything to the
pipe — strike that.
Did you do anything to the covering? You
personally.
A Not that I recall, no. Unless it needed
replacing. I might have done that, but I cant say for
sure I did that.
Q So when you say you were exposed to
asbestos on the covering, you mean you were exposed
just because you were right next to it?
A Right next to it and whatever vibration was
caused by taking it apart.
Q Taking what apart?
A Taking the pump — removing the pump from its
location.
Q And that would cause the covering to
vibrate?
A Whatever. And then if they were with a union,
breaking a union, hit it with a hammer to break the
union. Hit a wrench with a hammer to break the union,
that could disturb insulation and make dust.
Q Okay. And you said that you took apart
gaskets. Do you recall any of the gaskets — strike
that.
Do you recall any of the manufacturers of the
gaskets in the pumps in this building, Research and
Development?
A By name, I dont recall. But they were just
gaskets.
Sometimes we had to make different gaskets and
punch holes out for the flanges, depending how many
bolts were on the flange.
I dont remember for sure.
Q Okay. Now you say you took apart a
gasket in the pump. Describe that to me. What exactly
did you do?
A Where the flange or the pump was hooked up to a
flange, take that apart. If it was blowing by the
gasket, you know, you would replace that, shut the
valves off and take it apart.
Q Now when you say you take it apart, does
that mean you replaced it with a different piece?
A Replace the gasket, whatever had to be done to
replace the pump and put new gaskets in.
Q All right. The new gaskets that you put
into the pumps, do you recall the manufacturer of
those?
A I dont recall offhand. But I think I mentioned
it once before.
Right now I cant recall it.
Q Can you describe them for me? What they
looked like?
A They were formed gaskets. They were grayish
color or white. And thats about what I can recall of
them.
I think they were asbestos; but –
Q Why do you think they were asbestos?
A Because they had to do with heat.
Q So thats an assumption that you are
making?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall seeing the packaging that
these gaskets came in?
A No.
Q When you had to get a new gasket to put
in a pump, how did you go about getting it?
Did you have to go physically get it yourself?
Did you have to order it?
A In the crib. We used to get it in a crib. We
had a tool crib and we would ask who was in charge of
the crib for a gasket.
Q And that would be given to you?
A Yes.
Q All right. And you also said that you
were breaking unions.
Did the unions contain asbestos?
A No. But sometimes the unions were frozen and
you had to put a wrench on it and hit the wrench with a
hammer to break the union.
Q Okay. Is there any other way you were
exposed to asbestos while working on the pumps in the
Research and Development building?
A Unless there were gaskets flowing and that
caused asbestos to be into the air. That might be one
of the other ways, I would think.
Q What do you mean by gaskets blowing?
A Sometimes a bolt would break and you would see
some vapor coming from in between the gaskets.
Q And where were these gaskets located?
A In between the flanges on the pump.
Q How often would that occur?
A Pardon?
Q How often did that occur, if you recall?
A I dont recall.
Q Do you recall any of your co-workers at
Celanese that worked with you on pumps in Research and
Development?
A I think I mentioned Vince Crosifi.
Q Can you spell his last name?
A C – R – O – S – I – F – I. And Frank Gentile.
G – E – N – T – I – L – E. I dont know exactly.
Q Anybody else that you remember?
A Not offhand.
Q Do you know if both these men are still
living today?
A I think so.
Q Okay. Have you talked to them in the
last three years?
A No.
Q Are either one of them still employed at
Celanese?
A I doubt it.
Q Do you know where they are employed?
A No.
Q If at all?
A Probably retired.
Q All right. Now switching to the boiler
room. You said that you worked on pumps there also.
Do you recall how many pumps were in the boiler
room?
A I would think about four. I cant recall
exactly. About four.
Q All right. And do you recall the
manufacturer of the pumps in the boiler room?
A Oh, I would say Ingersoll Rand. Worthington.
Gold. Crane. C – R – A – N – E.
Q Did you work on all four of these pumps?
A At different times, yes.
Q Do you believe that while working on all
four pumps in the boiler room you were exposed to
asbestos?
A Yes.
Q All right. How?
A In the boiler room itself we were exposed to
asbestos all the time.
Q Okay. I understand that. And I think
you discussed that at your last deposition. What Im
concerned with here is asbestos concerning your work on
the pumps. So, its very specific.
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Tell me how you were exposed to asbestos
while working on pumps in the boiler room?
A If the flanges were blowing, if the steam was
escaping between the flanges and the gaskets where
asbestos or probably where asbestos, then we would be
exposed to it.
Q All right. Did you physically do
anything to the gaskets on the pumps?
A Replaced them. Scrape them out from the flanges
if they were stuck real bad. Scrape out old gaskets
and put new ones in.
Q Okay. Do you recall the manufacturer of
the old gaskets?
A No, not offhand. I might have in the last time
gone by since we spoke about them. I forget after
awhile.
Q Okay. And do you recall the
manufacturer of the new gaskets that you put into the
pumps?
A Not offhand, no.
Q How often did you have to work on pumps
in the boiler room?
A Whenever it required. I cant say specifically;
but where ever it required or whenever we had a
shutdown on a particular boiler, we would go over the
whole set up.
Q All right. Did you have shutdowns on
the boilers on a regular basis?
A When we had state inspections, yes.
Q And how often did that happen?
A Once a year.
Q Okay. And besides that, you said
whenever it was required.
How often did that happen on average?
A Every five or six months.
Q All right. And was that during the
entire time you worked at Celanese from 1961 to 1966?
A Yes.
Q How long did it take, on average, to
replace a gasket on a pump?
A Depends on if the gasket was — had to be
scraped off the flange or both flanges.
I cant say for sure.
Q Well, if it did have to be scraped off
on both flanges, how long would that take?
A About a half hour, three quarters of an hour.
Q If it didnt have to be scraped off, how
long would it take?
A Ten, 15 minutes.
Q When you replaced a gasket on a pump,
was any dust created?
A If we had to scrape it, yes. We had to break a
flange or break a union, yes.
Q When you — during the time at Celanese,
whenever you — strike that.
During your time at Celanese, did you ever wear
any protective clothing when you scraped a gasket?
A No.
Q Was any protective clothing available to
you?
A No.
Q Did you ever complain about that?
A No.
Q Did the dust bother you in any way? Did
it cause you to cough or anything like that?
A It made our throat dry; but we just used to
drink coffee.
Q Drink coffee?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Do you recall any of your co-workers
that worked on pumps with you in the boiler room?
A Joe Summers. I cant recall some of the other
names.
Q Okay. Have you talked to Joe since your
last deposition?
A No.
Q Do you know if he is alive?
A No.
Q In the boiler room, can you tell me if
you worked on one pump more than the others?
A No.
Q Was it basically you worked on all four
of them the same amount?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Is that a yes?
A Yes.
Q And the same question for when you were
in Research and Development. Did you work on one pump
more than another?
A No.
Q You worked basically the same amount of
time on each one?
A Yes.
Q While working on pumps in the boiler
room, do you believe you were exposed to asbestos in
any other way that you havent told me about?
A I cant recall.
Q All right. And you also told me that
there were pumps in the pilot plant?
A Yes.
Q How many pumps were there?
A I would say three or four. But I cant recall
the number.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of those
pumps?
A I would say it was the ones I mentioned.
Q Okay. Can you mention them again.
A Worthington. Ingersoll Rand. Gold. Crane.
Q How often did you work in the pilot
plant on the pumps?
A Whenever it required it. I cant say exactly
the number of times.
Q Did they have shutdowns in the pilot
plant?
A At times, yes.
Q How often did that occur?
A Every six months or so.
Q And during the shut down, did you have
to work on the pumps?
A Yes. We always had to check them out.
Q Okay. And then you also did it whenever
it was required. How often did that happen?
A Every several months.
Q Several. Three? Four? Five?
A Three or four.
Q Okay. Do you believe while in the pilot
plant working on pumps that you were exposed to
asbestos?
A Yes.
Q And how do you believe you were exposed
to asbestos?
A Throughout the whole building.
Q All right. Now Im just talking about
the pumps again. I understand there was asbestos in
the building.
But just while you were working on the pumps, do
you think you were exposed to asbestos?
A With the scraping of the gaskets, whatever
packing was involved. Thats about it.
Q The gaskets that you scraped, do you
recall the manufacturers of those gaskets?
A No.
Q Did you also replace gaskets?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of any of
the gaskets that you put in?
A Not today. I think my last deposition I did;
but not today.
Q Now you mentioned packing for the first
time. You had to pack the pumps?
A Sometime, yes.
Q How often did you do that?
A Whenever we took them apart. That was involved
in part of it.
Q How often did you take them apart in the
pilot plant?
A The same amount of times. Three or four.
Q Did you pack all four of the pumps that
you testified; Worthington, Ingersoll, Gold and Crane?
A I think so. Yes. They had form packing and I
think they were asbestos. Im pretty sure they were.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of the
packing?
A No.
Q Did you ever see the packing in
packages? In boxes or anything?
A I did, but I cant recall what they were.
Q You cant recall anything about the
packaging?
A No.
Q How long did it take to pack any of the
pumps on average?
A About 15, 20 minutes.
Q And when you did that, was any dust
created?
A Some.
Q Did you wear any protective clothing
when you packed pumps?
A No.
Q And I take it there was no protective
clothing available to you. Is that correct?
A No.
Q Did you ever complain about dust while
packing pumps?
A No.
Q You said it was form packing. Can you
just describe the actual product to me?
A Pardon?
Q Can you describe the actual packing to
me? What did it look like?
A It looked like a ring packing.
Q And just tell me what color it was.
Dimensions. Things like that. If you can.
A They fit around the shaft. I dont recall
exactly. Thats about as close as I can tell you.
Q And how do you know that the packing
contained asbestos?
A I dont know for sure.
Q When you had to pack a pump, could
you — did certain type of packing — strike that.
Did certain manufacturers packing have to go,
say in the Ingersoll Rand pump?
Could you only use one particular brand of
packing or could you use whatever was available?
A I think if it was already formed you would have
to use a particular form. Particular brand.
Q Do you recall the brand of packing you
used with the Ingersoll Rand pumps?
A No.
Q Was that the form packing?
A I think so; but Im not sure.
Q Do you recall any of the co-workers who
worked with you on pumps in the pilot plant?
A No. The ones I mentioned. Vince Crosifi.
Mostly Vince Crosifi.
Q How about the other two? Mr. Gentile or
Mr. Summers?
A Oh, there was Al Ott. He was another person.
But he is deceased anyway. Hes not with the us
anymore.
Q All right. Now sticking with Celanese.
You also stated in your amended interrogatory answers
that you used asbestos Teflon envelope gaskets on glass
lines and vessels?
A Yes.
Q All right. Where was that? What
particular location?
A In the pilot plant.
Q Is that the only place you did that?
A I think so. Yes. I think that would be the
only place.
Q Whats a Teflon envelope gasket? What
is that?
A Its a round gasket. It has clipped on — metal
clips onto it and it fits between wherever the glass
made contact.
It was a separation between two pieces of glass
or from a pipe to a vessel.
Q Did the Teflon gasket contain asbestos?
A I think so. I believe they did.
Q Okay. And why do you believe that they
did?
A Because it had to do with heat and that was –
those were the objects that they contained.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of the
Teflon gaskets that you used in the pilot plant?
A No.
Q Did you see the packaging that the
gasket came in?
A No. They were various sizes for whatever size
the glass pipe was.
Q And did you just clip the gaskets on or
did you have to cut them or do anything to them?
A No. We just clipped them on. Replace the old
ones and put the new ones on.
Q When you did that, replace old and put
new ones on, was dust created?
A No. I dont think so.
Q How often did you do that, replace
Teflon gaskets in the pilot plant?
A On shutdowns mostly or whenever necessary.
Whenever one was leaking.
Q Okay. And the shutdowns, you said,
occurred about once a year?
A Different projects it was more frequent.
Q All right. Well on average while you
were at Celanese, how often did they have shutdowns in
the pilot plant?
A I would say about six months. Unless something
happened and the flange was leaking, then we had to
replace them.
Q And the other thing — strike that.
Sitting here today, do you recall any other ways
you were exposed to asbestos at Celanese that you have
not talked about either today or three years ago?
MS. KIZIS: I object to the form because
its kind of broad.
But, if you can give her an answer to the
question, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Repeat the question,
please.
Q Okay. Im trying to ascertain whether
or not, sitting here right now, you can recall any
other way you were exposed to asbestos at Celanese that
you havent talked about either today or at your last
deposition?
A No.
Q Now Im going to switch gears and talk
about Ciba Geigy.
You told me that you were exposed to pumps at –
strike that.
That you worked on pumps that Ciba Geigy. Is
that correct?
A Yes.
Q In what buildings or locations in Ciba
Geigy did you work on pumps?
A I think there were about 32 buildings in Ciba
Geigy.
Q Okay.
A And most of the buildings had a pump; either
condensate pump or whatever.
They had many pumps in them for different
reasons. And most every one had a pump in it. Most of
the buildings. Plus the boiler room.
Q Did you work on pumps in every building
in Ciba Geigy?
A I would imagine so. I think so.
Q Can you tell me if you worked in one
building more than another?
A The boiler room.
Q Okay. Most of your time was spent in
the boiler room. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q How many pumps were in the boiler room?
A I would say about eight.
Q Do you recall the manufacturers of the
pumps in the boiler room at Ciba Geigy?
A I think they were the same ones. Gold.
Ingersoll Rand. Worthington. Crane.
We had condensation pumps. I cant recall all
the names, no. I think thats about it. The ones I
can recall.
Q And did you work on all eight pumps in
the boiler room?
A At different times, yes.
Q Do you believe that while working on the
pumps in the boiler room, you were exposed to asbestos?
A Yes.
Q And how do you believe you were exposed
to asbestos?
A Taking the pumps apart. Scraping flanges.
Breaking unions.
Q Any other way besides the three things
you just mentioned?
A No. Not that I recall.
Q Did you do anything with gaskets in the
pumps in the boiler room?
A Taking gaskets off them, replacing them,
packing, whatever.
Q Okay. Well, you have to tell me,
because if you dont tell me, then I dont know, okay.
The gaskets; you replaced gaskets?
A Replaced gaskets. Replaced packing.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of the
gaskets that you replaced?
A No.
Q Do you recall the manufacturer of the
gaskets that you put in?
A No.
Q Did you have to cut those gaskets?
A No. I think they were mostly formed gaskets.
Fit a certain four inch flange or whatever.
Q Okay. And how often did you replace
gaskets in pumps at Ciba Geigy in the boiler room?
A Whenever the gasket was blowing. Whenever we
took the pump apart we had to scrape the gaskets if we
had to. Or replace them when we put the pump back in
service.
Q And on average how often did that
actually happen?
A About a dozen times a year.
Q Okay. And you worked at Ciba Geigy from
1970 to 1987. Is that right?
A Right.
Q Did you work on pumps during your entire
17 years there?
A On and off, yes.
Q Was there any certain amount of time
that you didnt work on pumps? Did a whole year ever
go by that you didnt work on a pump?
A I dont think there was a year gone by when I
didnt work on one pump.
We had millwrights and they did a lot of work on
pumps also.
Q Was that their job?
A Um-hum (Yes). It was part of their job. We
would take them apart and give them to millwrights or
we would work them over ourselves. Whatever.
Q Okay. And then you said also that you
replaced packing on pumps?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Do you recall the name of the
manufacturer of the packing?
A No.
Q And what kind of packing was this?
A I think it was formed packing.
Q Do you recall that specifically or are
you just guessing?
A I think. Specifically, I think it was. Like I
say — lets put down Im guessing.
I dont know for sure. It has been sometime
ago.
Q Okay, thats fine. How often did you
have to replace packing on pumps in the boiler room?
A I cant recall.
Q When you did replace the packing, was
any dust created?
A Sometimes.
Q Not every time?
A No. Not every time.
Q Okay. Do you know why sometimes there
was dust and why sometimes there wasnt?
A No.
Q Was there dust more times than there
wasnt?
A I cant recall.
Q Did you ever wear any protective
clothing while you were replacing packing on pumps?
A No.
Q Was there protective clothing available
to you there at Ciba Geigy?
A In the later years.
Q And when it was available in the later
years, did you wear it?
A Yes.
Q You did. And that was while you were
replacing packing on pumps?
A Whenever we worked with any asbestos that we
thought had contained asbestos we always took those
precautions.
Q That would include replacing packing on
pumps?
A I would think so, yes.
Q Do you recall the first time you wore
protective clothing at Ciba Geigy?
A The mid seventies.
Q And when you were working with the
gaskets on the pumps, did you ever wear protective
clothing?
A Later on. Like I said, later on.
Q In the same time period?
A Yes.
Q Okay. When you replaced gaskets on
pumps, was any dust created?
A Sometimes.
Q Okay. And again Ill ask you the same
question.
Do you know why sometimes there was dust and
sometimes there was not dust?
A No.
Q What type of protective clothing would
you wear when you replaced gaskets in the later years?
A A dust fold mask. Thats about all.
Q And same question for replacing packing;
what kind of protective clothing did you wear?
A The same.
Q The mask?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Is that a yes?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Do you need to take a break at
all?
A Sounds like a good thought.
Q Okay. Thats fine.
(Whereupon a recess was taken.)
MS. DAMGEN: Okay. We are back on the
record.
Q Mr. Vassalli, in your answers to
interrogatories, the amended ones, you also mention
that you now recall the names of two companies;
Woolsulate and Nova Insulation?
A Yes.
Q What do you recall about Woolsulate?
And this is at Ciba Geigy?
A Yes.
Q What do you recall about Woolsulate
Company?
A That they brought their asbestos products into
the place and they had union pipe coverers that worked
for them and did work in the plant.
Mostly they had one man on the job; but if they
had a bigger job they would call for more men.
Q Mr. Vassalli, do you recall a company,
Nova Insulation, at Ciba Geigy?
A Yes.
Q And what did Nova Insulation do at Ciba
Geigy?
A They insulated bigger jobs.
Q Okay. Now you say bigger jobs. What
does that mean?
A When there were new installations. New lines
put into different locations, then the outside coverers
did that work.
Q Okay. Did you see Nova Insulation at
Ciba Geigy more than one time or more than one job?
A Quite frequently we used to see them, yes.
Q Were they there during the entire time
that you worked at Ciba Geigy? On and off type basis?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever work next to the men from
Nova Insulation?
A At different times, yes.
Q Do you recall specifically where you
were when you were working near these men? What
building?
A Some of the chemical buildings. Buildings P
and R.
Q Okay. And would that be two separate
jobs? Buildings P and R were different jobs?
A Different buildings and separate jobs. Yes.
Q Was there any other time that you worked
next to men from Nova Insulation?
A No. I think there are more than just that one,
those times, yes.
Q Do you recall other locations that you
were at?
A In the boiler room.
Q How many times in the boiler room?
A I cant give a specific number.
Q Okay.
A Many times.
Q It was many times. Okay. Any other
locations you recall?
A Most all the chemical buildings.
Q How many chemical buildings were there?
A P-1, P-2. R, R-1, R-2. Im trying to think.
Throughout the whole plant, actually.
Q Do you know the type of asbestos
products that Nova Insulation was using at Ciba Geigy?
A I think it was Kaylo, Keasbey. All different
kinds.
I cant recall all the names.
Q Okay. Right now Im asking you the
types as opposed to the manufacturer or brand name.
A The type pipe covering?
Q Is it just pipe covering or did they use
other asbestos products?
A I dont recall if they used blocks. I know they
had block in one of the storage rooms. Asbestos block.
They had a building where they would store a lot
of their equipment.
Q Where is that building?
A I think it was Z building. One of the
buildings that they didnt use hardly any more. And
thats what they used, the basement of that building.
Q Okay. Did just Nova use this building
or did others?
A I think Woolsulate did, too. Im pretty sure
they did. We used to have different size pipe
covering. Inch. Two inch. Three inch. Whatever.
Q You personally were in this building?
A Yes.
Q Why would you have to go down there?
A Sometime we, if we had to use a small piece of
covering for a certain little job we did or whatever,
we broke it off. We would do that ourselves. Replace
that little piece, or whatever.
Q Okay.
A If it wasnt a big job, we would do it.
Q Now when I asked you about the type of
products that Nova used, you said Kaylo.
K – A – Y – L – O.
A Pipe covering.
Q And you also said Keasbey. What is
Keasbey?
A I think its also, Im pretty sure, its pipe
covering.
Q Do you recall the names of — do you
recall any other brand names of pipe covering used by
Nova?
A Offhand, no. Im sure there were more, but I
dont recall them.
Q Can you recall any other outside
companies, other than Nova and Woolsulate that came to
Ciba Geigy?
A Offhand, no.
Q Okay. You started to talk about
Woolsulate Company at Ciba Geigy?
A I think they used to bring in also pipe covering
asbestos. Bagged asbestos pipe cover. Different kinds
of powdered asbestos. Ill call it Philip Carey.
Q How often do you recall seeing
Woolsulate at Ciba Geigy?
A How often? Quite frequently. Because the
outside coverer, I guess — Im sure he was a union
pipe coverer. Whenever he needed stuff he would just
order it and they would deliver it to him.
Q All right. What jobs do you recall
Woolsulate working on at Ciba Geigy?
A Throughout the whole plant.
Q Do you recall any specific billings or
jobs? Can you recall, sitting here right now?
A In the chemical — all the chemical buildings, I
would say. Boiler room and some of the utility rooms.
Q Did Woolsulate come to Ciba Geigy on a
regular basis during the entire time that you worked
there?
A Yes. I would say yes.
Q And were you ever in the same area when
they — when those men were working?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall specifically where that
was?
A No, not specifically. But, many times. We
worked side by side on different jobs. If we were
doing a pipe fitting job and they were doing their
thing, we just kept going.
Q You said they brought in some sort of
bag asbestos. Do you know what they did with that
product?
A They covered the fittings. Covered the
fittings. And made repairs on floors in the boilers.
Q Okay. And I think you mentioned pipe
covering also?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the manufacturer of the pipe
covering?
MS. KIZIS: This is Woolsulate you are
focusing on?
MS. DAMGEN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Kaylo.
Q Kaylo?
A Philip Carey, I think. That was the bag stuff.
Quite a few others; but I cant recall.
Q Okay. Philip Carey was the bag stuff.
Do you recall any other manufacturers of the bag stuff
that the Woolsulate men used?
A Not offhand.
Q All right. Did the Woolsulate men use
any other asbestos products besides the bag asbestos
and the pipe covering?
A I think they used blocks on different jobs; but
I cant say for sure. They did their own thing and I
wasnt always involved with them.
Q Okay. Are there any other — I may have
asked you this. Did I ask you, are there any other
outside companies that you recall other than Woolsulate
and at Ciba Geigy?
A There may have been more; but thats all I
recall now.
Q How about at Celanese? Do you recall
any other outside companies that you didnt testify to
earlier?
A Keasbey, I think.
Q Okay.
MS. DAMGEN: Off the record.
(Whereupon an off the record discussion
was held.)
THE WITNESS: We used to talk –
MS. KIZIS: Wait until she asks a
question.
Q Just going back to the pumps that you
worked on at Ciba Geigy, do you know the names of any
of the suppliers of either the gaskets or the packing?
A Offhand I cant say I do.
Q Okay. And same question for Celanese.
Do you recall any of the suppliers of the gaskets?
MR. HOFFMAN: I object to the form.
THE WITNESS: Offhand, no.
Q At your earlier deposition in 1990 there
was some mention made of a handwritten list that you
had written concerning products that you believed you
were exposed to.
Do you recall that testimony?
A Vaguely, yes.
Q Do you know where that list is?
A No.
Q Did you ever see it after your last
deposition?
A No.
Q So you have no idea what was done with
it?
A No. Definitely not.
MS. KIZIS: If we could let the record
reflect, too, that upon reviewing that
transcript, I saw that request and I conducted a
search of our files and came up with nothing
resembling what was discussed there.

So, I dont know what become of it.
Other people in my office have worked on this.
I asked them and we really just dont know what
it was or where it is.
Q Okay. Now Im going to switch a little.
Are you still a member of the Toms River Social Club?
A Yes. The Retirement Club. Yes.
Q How often do you participate in
activities at that club?
A Maybe once a year.
Q How long have you been going there once
a year?
A Since 1988.
Q And how about the V. F. W.? Are you
still a member of the V. F. W.?
A Yes. Im a life member.
Q How often do you participate in any
activities with the V. F. W.?
A Maybe once a year. I go to a meeting once a
year. I dont participate too much in anything.
Q Okay. And how long have you been going
to meetings one time a year there?
A Since about 1988.
Q And I dont know what my notes mean;
D. A. V.
A Disabled American Veterans. Im a life member
of that also.
Q Do you participate in meetings or
activities there?
A Very seldom.
Q Did you used to participate more?
A I would go to a meeting about once or twice a
year; but not in the past several years. I get
literature from them, but I dont go to meetings.
Q Is there a reason why you dont go
anymore?
A They usually have night meetings and I dont
care to go out at night.
Q From the time of your last deposition in
August of 1990 up until this past summer when you were
fishing and you had the pain, how were you feeling in
between that time period?
A Repeat that question, please.
Q Okay. From the last time that you were
here in August of 1990 at your deposition, up until
July when you had the pain while fishing, so from
August of 1990 to July of 1993, how were you feeling
generally?
A Fair. I had a little shortness of breath. I
was — thats about it. I was feeling fairly well.
Q How often were you fishing, say, in the
beginning of last summer?
A Maybe twice. Twice, three times a year.
Q And the summer before? How often were
you fishing?
A About the same amount.
Q Okay. Now in July of 1993 you had a
pain in your side?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Describe what happened for me that day.
A Well, I had gone fishing on a Tuesday in July.
And I dont remember the exact date. I think it was
the ninth.
But about three days later I got this awful pain
on my right side. And I went to the emergency
hospital — the hospital emergency room and they said
it was a muscle spasm.
They gave me some injection, and after awhile
they released me from the hospital. From the emergency
room.
But the pain persisted and I went to my doctor
and he thought it was something to do with my
skeletal — muscles or whatever. Rib or something.
And he told me to have some x-rays taken.
Q Okay. Let me just stop you. What was
the name of your doctor?
A Dr. Gaetano. Lawrence Gaetano.
Q Prior to when you went to Dr. Gaetano.
When was the last time you saw him before that?
A For a yearly checkup. I would say about six
months prior to that.
Q And when he gave you the yearly checkup,
what did he do? Did he take an x-ray?
A No. He recommended I have an x-ray taken by Dr.
Sollami, my pulmonary doctor.
Q Did you go for that x-ray?
A Yes.
Q Now Im talking about when you went for
your regular checkup with Dr. Gaetano.
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q So he sent you for an x-ray with Dr.
Sollami?
A He recommended I did. He didnt actually send
me for it. I think I went later. I cant remember
specifically.
Q Did you go later, after you had the pain
or before you had the pain?
A I think it was before I had the pain.
Q Okay. Do you know where you had that
x-ray done?
A In our Mini Mall here. They have an x-ray
place. And thats where I had it taken.
Q Whats the name of that Mini Mall?
A I just know it as the Mini Mall; but there is a
regular x-ray place. Its right on Mule Road.
Q In Toms River?
A Yes. Right in Toms River on Mule Road.
Q Did you get the results of that x-ray?
A Yes.
Q And what was that result?
A That the lining around my lungs was still — Im
trying to think of the phrase. I cant recall the
phrase.
But the lining around my lung was inflamed and
it was the pleura of my lung.
Q Okay.
A And there was some calcification and there
was — from the x-ray, nothing was out of line as far
as Dr. Sollami noticed.
Q Did he recommend that you do anything or
have treatment for anything at that time?
A Yes. He gave me some inhalants and that was it.
Q Okay.
A And he wanted to see me in six months time and
have more x-rays taken and follow up.
Q Okay. So now its after you have the
pain that you went to the emergency room and then you
went to Dr. Sollami.
He sent you for another x-ray at that point?
A I believe he did, yes.
Q Okay.
A But the pain persisted and I went to another
doctor. Comisulli her name was. Its a woman doctor
in Dr. Gaetanos office building. She gave me an
injection.
Q All right.
A They still thought it was skeletal?
Q Let me just stop you again. When you
went for the second chest x-ray with Dr. Sollami, did
he give you the results that time?
This would be around August of 1993, correct?
A Yes. About the same. Everything was about the
same.
Q As the last chest x-ray?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Okay. Did he prescribe anything for you
at that time?
A Just to continue with the inhalants.
Q Okay. And then he sent you to this
other doctor. Doctor Comisulli?
A No. I did that on my own because the pain
persisted.
Q Okay. Did Dr. Comisulli take any
x-rays?
A No.
Q She just examined you?
A Yes.
Q Did she give you a breathing test?
A No.
Q Okay. And so then she gave you an
injection because she thought it was skeletal. Is that
correct?
A Yes. Dr. Sollami gave me a breathing test. I
think I should have mentioned that. Yes. They have a
pulmonary function thing that they do.
Q Did he tell you the results of your
breathing test?
A He said that I was doing pretty fair.
Q All right. Other than Dr. Comisulli
giving you the injection. Did she do anything else for
you?
A No.
Q And what happened next?
A The pain persisted and I went to Dr. Gaetano and
he suggested that I go for scans. Chest scan and a
bone scan.
Q Okay. This was around September of
1993?
A Yes.
Q And you went for those tests?
A Yes.
Q And where did you go for the test?
A At the hospital. Community Memorial Hospital.
Q Okay.
A Wait a minute. I think it might have been at
the x-ray place here at the Mini Mall. Im not sure
now. Im a little vague on that.
Q Okay.
A It was at one place or the other for sure.
Q I believe that your answers to
interrogatories say that it was at the hospital?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q If that helps you.
A Yes.
Q You went as an outpatient?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Is that when they drained the
fluid from your lung?
A Im trying to think. I saw Dr. Sollami again
and thats when they found I had fluid in my lung and
Dr. Sollami was going to remove the fluid from my lung.
As an out-patient.
Q Okay. Let me just stop you again. When
you went for the chest and the bone scan at the
hospital, were you given the results?
A My doctor was given the results.
Q Dr. Gaetano?
A Dr. Gaetano.
Q Did he discuss that with you?
A Somewhat. But he referred me to Dr. Sollami
again.
Q Okay. What do you recall that he did
tell you at that point? Dr. Gaetano.
A I dont recall too much about what he said. I
think he more or less put it in Dr. Sollamis hands,
the pulmonary doctor.
Q And Dr. Sollami told you, you had fluid
in your lungs?
A Yes.
Q And this was again in September of 1993?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q What happened next?
A Well, I was admitted as an out-patient.
Q At Community Memorial Hospital?
A To have the procedure done. In the course of
having this procedure done I passed out. They did draw
some fluid out and from the test. And the fluids that
they did take out showed that there were some cells
that were questionable. And Dr. Sollami suggested that
I see a surgeon and have some biopsy taken of my lung.
Q This might be a really stupid question;
but do you know why you passed out?
A I have no idea. While they were drawing the
fluid out I passed out. Thats all I remember. I
passed out and I was on the bed and I was receiving
oxygen.
Q Before you passed out, when you were
getting the fluid drained, were you on any anesthesia
at that point?
A No. I was given some local needles. Whatever
was in there. Novocain. Xylocaine. Whatever.
And then they put the big needles in and it was
hurting.
Q It hurt. Do you want to take a break?
A No.
Q Did you have to be admitted to the
hospital that time when you passed out?
A No. Dr. Sollami was quite concerned with the
blood test and the results of what little fluid he
drained.
And I had blood tests taken. And he didnt like
the results of the blood test. And he wanted me to go
back to the hospital that same day and have more blood
tests taken that evening.
At 7:30 in the evening. He was afraid maybe
blood had gone into my lung or whatever. He had
suspicious feelings about it.
Q And did you go back?
A Yes. I went back for a second series of blood
tests.
Q Okay. Was that when you saw Dr. Dara?
A Yes. He thought I had lupus. And he thought I
had a clotting factor in my blood.
Q Did he recommend that you do anything
about that?
A He put me on some steroid. I forgot the name of
it.
Q Anything else Dr. Dara did?
A He drew blood and he kept me on the steroid for
about three weeks.
Q Okay. And now in the meantime, how were
you feeling physically?
A More out of breath. More tired.
Q Were you still having pain?
A Yes.
Q And where was the pain?
A In my lower right back underneath my rib cage.
Q Okay. Did you get the surgical biopsy
done, too?
A Dr. Dara wanted me to have the surgical biopsy
done in November and I was admitted into the hospital
and they drew blood and they said I had a clotting
factor and they gave me two pints of blood plasma
thinking that could straighten out the whole affair.
Which it didnt.
And I got discharged from the hospital without
any surgery.
Q Was that in November of 1993 that all
that happened?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A Then the doctors wanted me to have another
hematologist.
Q Okay. Just let me interrupt again. Did
you see a Dr. DeCapua?
A DeCapua what was the surgeon.
Q You had a consultation with him?
A Yes.
Q And that was in September of 1993,
right?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you after the
consultation?
A That he thought I would have to have surgery and
biopsy to see what was going on with my lungs and if I
had a tumor.
Q What kind of tests, if any, did Dr.
DeCapua do?
A Mainly a physical exam.
Q No x-ray?
A Im trying to think. I had x-rays taken at the
hospital. No. When I was admitted in November I had
x-rays taken.
But I think all he did was went by the old
x-rays that I had and he did the physical examination.
Q Okay. So Dr. DeCapua recommended the
surgical biopsy; but your other doctor, Dr. Dara,
wanted you to wait until November of 1993. Is that
right?
A Right. He wanted me to keep taking the steroids
figuring that would help my blood condition.
Q All right. Was that when you were
admitted for the surgical biopsy? Was that at
Community Medical or Memorial, Im sorry.
A Community Memorial.
Q Your answers to interrogatories
indicated when you were given the two pints of plasma
at that hospital, that was October 27th. Does that
sound right?
A Yes.
Q All right. What happened after that?
After you were given the two pints of plasma?
A I had another blood test and they said that I
still — Dr. Dara said I had a coagulating factor with
my blood. And he said no operation. No surgical
procedure. And I was discharged from the hospital.
Q Okay.
A At that time the doctors wanted me to have
another hematologist, a secondary opinion on the
hematologist. And that was Dr. Shirley Ho.
Q And you went to Dr. Ho in November of
1993. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q And what did she do?
A She took me off the steroids and had more blood
tests taken. I think it was called a Factor 12 blood
test.
Q Okay.
A And then by that test, after a week or two when
they got the results, she was under — she got the
opinion that I didnt have a problem with my blood
coagulating.
And she okayed me for surgery.
Q Was her opinion that you never had the
problem with the blood or just at that time you no
longer had the problem?
A Repeat that.
Q Dr. Ho, was her opinion, as far as you
know, that you never had a problem with blood
coagulating? That the other doctors were essentially
wrong?
A She thought it was questionable, but not a
definite yes or no.
Q Okay.
A Thats why she took the other blood test and she
determined that I did not have that problem, that I
could undergo surgery.
Q Okay. And you had the surgery done?
A December 1st.
Q December 1st. And that was at Community
Memorial?
A Yes. By Dr. DeCapua.
Q You were admitted to the hospital,
correct?
A Yes.
Q How long were you in the hospital for?
A I think it was nine days. Two days in the
recovery or intensive care and the other days
recuperating.
I had a chest tube in me, too, for drainage.
Q How long did you have the tube in you?
A I think two days.
Q Okay. And did your doctor then talk to
you about the results of all your tests?
A Yes. He spoke to my family and myself.
Q This is Dr. DeCapua, correct?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you?
A He told me that I had mesothelioma. And he said
it was life threatening and there wasnt too much
anybody could do with it.
And he said his opinion was that any other
surgery would shorten my life. And he didnt recommend
any radiation treatment or chemotherapy.
Q Okay. When you got out of the hospital
after the nine days, how were you feeling?
A Poorly. Very bad. I had visiting nurses come
to the house. The doctor recommended that I have
visiting nurses come to the house and check my
breathing and my condition. My blood pressure and so
on and so forth.
Q How long — strike that.
How many times a day did the nurses come to the
house?
A Three times a week.
Q Three times a week. Once a day?
A Yes.
Q And for how long a period of time did
they come? Three times a week?
A About three weeks.
Q You also said you were feeling poorly.
Can you just tell me a little more about how you were
feeling?
A Well, I felt very severe pain. The muscles by
my chest wall and my ribs were hurting because I knew
that they had spread my ribs to do what they had to do.
And when they went back in place it was very, very
painful.
Q Were you on any medication at this time?
A I was taking pain killers.
Q How about morphine? Were you on any
morphine?
A Yes.
Q How long were you on the morphine for?
A Quite awhile. Im still on it. Im still on
morphine but a different type.
Any time I took a deep breath it hurt. Any time
I moved, any time I sneezed or coughed or yawned it
hurt.
Q Were you able to get out of the house at
all during the period after you got out of the
hospital?
A No. I stayed home for about three weeks while
the visiting nurse came. And then after, I started
going out a little bit.
Q Okay. Now after the three weeks, what
happened, if anything? Did you see any more doctors?
A I wanted a second opinion, so I went to the
Philadelphia or Pennsylvania School of — Pennsylvania
University Hospital to their lung center. And I
brought all my information. My slides and pertinent
information. And x-rays. And they were examined by
several doctors.
And Dr. Treat was the one that came when all the
doctors had a conference about what I showed them. And
he said there wasnt too much anybody could do for me.
That it was pretty bad. And radiation wouldnt help
me, nor chemotherapy wouldnt help me.
And he said maybe later on, for pain
maintenance, radiation might help. He recommended that
I take MS Contin, another drug.
Q Did you take that drug?
A I took that drug for — well, he ordered a heavy
dose and I think it was 30 milligrams. And it was very
powerful. I was sleeping most of the day. And they
recommended that I take a half that dose. 15
milligrams. And what happened then is it helped the
pain, but it — my stomach was — I had a condition
with a stomach ulcers. I had three stomach surgeries
before this. And my stomach started giving me a lot of
pain. And they finally had to take me off that.
Dr. Ho finally took me off that MS Contin. The
hematologist which I was associating with afterwards.
And she put me on this Percocet. I could take six of
those a day every three hours for pain.
Q Do you know the dosage of the Percocet?
A I think its 325.
Q Each pill?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Now are you still having problems
with your stomach and your ulcers?
A Yes. I take a sleeping pill at night. I take
the Percocet during the day when I get the pain. And
at night I take this Restoril, I think its called.
Its a sleeping pill prescribed by the doctor. And
that helps me make it until about three oclock in the
morning. At which time I get a sharp pain and I wake
up. And I take another pain killer and a stomach pill.
Zantac.
Q Now you are saying you get the sharp
pain around three oclock. Where is the pain?
A The pain is underneath my rib cage on the right
side and back. How can I describe it. Back here,
under my rib cage. And right cross my whole chest.
The lower part of my chest and my stomach.
Q Before last summer, were you having any
problems with your ulcer?
A Not that much, no. I used to just take it –
once a night I would take it. Once at night before
going to bed. It didnt bother me at all compared to
what it does now.
Okay. After this second opinion, that I got
from the Philadelphia Lung Center, I went to the Sloan
Kettering Hospital in New York.
Q When was that, approximately?
A I think it was about four weeks ago. Its a
rough approximation.
And I brought all my slides and things over.
And they looked at them and they said, right now there
wasnt anything anybody could do for me.
One of the doctors said that they would almost
have to cut me in half to do any kind of surgery that
would help me.
And that didnt go too good.
Q Did they recommend chemo or radiation?
A No. They said it wouldnt help me at that time;
but they did recommend that I see a surgeon, a Dr.
Roush.
Q Do you know how to spell that?
A I think its R – O – U – S – H; but Im not
sure. Its a woman surgeon.
Q Okay.
A Shes at the Sloan Kettering.
Q Just one more question about Sloan
Kettering. Did they change your medication in any way?
A No.
Q Okay. Did you go to see Dr. Roush?
A Yes.
Q And when was that?
A I would say two weeks ago. I saw her on two
occasions. One occasion she examined me and took a
blood test because I was feeling — I told her I felt
very weak and tired.
And she thought I might need some Vitamin B
injections. And she said that I should go back and
have pulmonary function tests done to see if I was a
candidate for surgery.
I asked her what did this surgery involve and
she said it was the removal of my lung.
Q Which lung?
A Right.
Q Okay.
A So Im waiting to see the results of these tests
to see if Im a candidate for this surgery.
Q Do you know when you are going to get
the results?
A I think today or during this week.
Q If she tells you, you are a candidate,
are you going to have the surgery?
A I dont think so.
MS. DAMGEN: You want to take another
break?
THE WITNESS: All right. I think I
will.
(Whereupon a recess was taken.)
MS. DAMGEN: Okay. Back on the record.
Q Mr. Vassalli, can you tell me generally
today how you are feeling.
A Im short of breath. I have pain from my chest
to my back to my right shoulder. I cant take a deep
breath without feeling some pain. I cant sleep well
at night. If I cough or sneeze it hurts me quite a
bit.
Where I had this surgery done, they took a piece
of lung out. And Im thinking about what the future
holds for me and it doesnt look all that rosy. I
asked this Dr. Roush what did she think my chances were
if I didnt have the surgery and she said, zero.
I didnt think that was very encouraging. And
like I said, I dont know what the future holds for me
or my family.
And its just something to think about. I know
its pretty serious. As serious as it can get.
Q Okay. If you dont have the surgery,
are you aware of any other alternatives? Has the
doctor discussed that at all with you?
A They said later on for pain maintenance, maybe
radioactive –
Q Radiation?
A Radiation therapy may be helpful, but that
doesnt sound too good. I dont relish that thought,
either.
Q Do you have any other appointments with
any other doctors at this point?
A To see Dr. Roush. And find out what the results
are. If I am a candidate for the surgery. If my left
lung will sustain me if they do take out the right lung
where the tumor is.
And Im supposed to have an appointment with Dr.
Sollami, the pulmonary doctor.
Q Are you going to have appointments with
him on a regular basis, as far as you know?
A Yes. And Dr. Shirley Ho. Shes the oncologist.
MS. DAMGEN: Thank you. Thats all I
have.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOFFMAN:
Q Mr. Vassalli, my name is Kevin Hoffman.
I represent one of the defendants named in your
lawsuit.
I just have some follow up questions for you.
It shouldnt be too long.
I want to talk about the Teflon jacket gaskets
that you talked about earlier.
Its my understanding that you used those while
you worked at Celanese. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Is that also true for your time at Ciba
Geigy?
A Yes.
Q Im also correct that you — as to the
Teflon jacket gaskets that you used at Celanese, you do
not recall the manufacturer of those gaskets?
A No, I dont.
Q Do you recall who supplied the gaskets
to Celanese?
A No. They were brought into the crib and
whenever we needed them we would go and get how many we
needed. Whatever sizes.
Q Do you know if there was more than one
brand of Teflon gasket that you used at Celanese?
A No, I dont know.
Q Its possible?
A Anything is possible. What could I say? Yes.
Q Its my understanding that you used the
Teflon jacket gaskets in connection with glass piping?
A Yes.
Q And thats at Celanese?
A Yes.
Q Thats yes?
A Yes.
Q Did you use the Teflon gaskets when you
did work on the other piping in the plant?
A No. I think only on the glass piping.
Q All right. So when you are talking
about the taking off the gaskets on the piping, other
than the pilot area, you are talking about a gasket
other than this Teflon gasket?
A Yes. It only — we only used them on glass.
Mostly on glass lines or glass vessels.
Q Was there any particular job category at
Celanese that had responsibility for removal and
installation of the Teflon gaskets in the pilot?
A The pipe fitters and sometime the millwrights.
Q Was that sort of activity within your
specific job?
A Yes.
Q Limiting my focus on just the time you
were at Celanese, did you use the Teflon gaskets during
the entire time you were there?
A I would say so, yes.
Q Was there any period of time — well,
let me back up. My review of your initial
interrogatory answers reflect that you worked at
Celanese between 1961 and 1966. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q During that five year time you used the
Teflon gaskets?
A Yes.
Q Was there any interruption in that time
period when you didnt have occasion to use those
Teflon gaskets?
A There was a time I worked in the boiler room
specifically. And the last year or two that I worked
specifically in the boiler room.
Q So as a result, you wouldnt have come
in contact with the Teflon gaskets?
A For that last year or two I would say yes. I
didnt come in contact with it.
Q You now you mentioned that, generally
speaking, you would work with the Teflon gaskets during
shutdowns and sometimes when –
A There was a leak between the lines.
Q Im a little confused as to the number
of shutdowns per year. I have written down in my notes
approximately two times a year.
Is that generally accurate?
A Thats about right unless there was a problem
with a leaking glass line, then we would have to change
the gasket.
Q Can you approximate for how long that
kind of leaking would happen? For instance, once a
month? Once every six months?
A Once every couple of months we would have a
problem.
Q When you would work on one of the
leaking areas and fix the gasket or replace the gasket
in the flanges between the glass pipes, how long would
that take for an individual gasket to be taken off and
replaced?
A About ten or 15 minutes. I had to see what size
it was, locate where the leak was, see what size line
we were talking about, get a replacement gasket and go
back and replace it. Take the bolts apart and put it
back.
Q You talked earlier about the fact that
the piping, other than the glass piping, sometimes the
gasket material would be deteriorated and you would
have to scrape it off in order to get the old gasket
off?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Is that something that would also happen
with the Teflon gaskets, or would they remain intact?
A I think they would remain intact mostly.
Q Now Im correct that the Teflon gaskets
were pre-formed?
A Yes.
Q They never came in any kind of sheet
form?
A No.
Q Did the Teflon gaskets have the holes
already punched in them?
A Yes. And then there were the ones that just had
the brass fittings between them and they more or less
centered themselves on the glass lines.
Q Is that the ones that would clip on?
A Yes.
Q In other words, you didnt have to do
any hole punching or cutting of the Teflon gaskets?
A No. I think most of them were already set for
that.
Q Now I may have missed it, but I know
that you described your usage of the Teflon gaskets at
Celanese but Im not sure how you described how you
used them at Ciba Geigy.
Can you tell me, at Ciba Geigy between 1970 and
1987, what kind of use you made of Teflon jacket
gaskets?
A On glass lines more specifically. Thats about
it.
Q So the same holds true at Ciba Geigy?
They were used in conjunction with glass piping?
A Yes.
Q Im going to go through some of the same
questions I asked you about Celanese, but Im going to
focus your attention on Ciba Geigy.
Was there a part of the plant that the glass
piping was housed in?
A Almost all the chemical buildings.
Q You said before there were approximately
32 buildings in total, how many buildings would have
the glass piping in them? If you can approximate?
A I would say about six. Six or eight.
Q Now its accurate that you worked at
Ciba Geigy between 1970 and 1987?
A Yes.
Q Did you have occasion to use or work
with the Teflon gaskets during that entire time period?
A On and off. Not — on and off. Not regularly;
but on and off.
Q When you say on and off, can you be any
more specific as to what that means? Weekly? Monthly?
That kind of thing?
A Pardon?
Q Weekly or monthly. That kind of thing?
A I would say monthly.
Q Did there come a point in time during
this number of years between 1970 and 1987 that the
Teflon gaskets were no longer used?
Did they stay there the whole time?
A I think they stayed there the whole time.
Q Do you recall a manufacturers brand
name or trade name of the Teflon gaskets that you used
at Ciba Geigy?
A No, I dont.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to who
supplied the Teflon gaskets to Ciba Geigy?
A No. We would just get them from our crib
whenever we needed them.
Q The Teflon gaskets that you used at Ciba
Geigy, did they have any writing on the gasket material
itself that you noticed?
A No. I cant recall.
Q All right. Did you ever see — well,
let me back up. Did it come in any kind of packaging?
Or when you got them were they simply already
separated?
A They were already separated.
Q Did you ever see any of the kind of
packaging that the Teflon gaskets came in?
A No.
Q Did you have any responsibility for
doing any ordering of the Teflon gaskets?
A No.
Q Did the appearance of the Teflon gaskets
at Ciba Geigy look any different than the ones you used
at Celanese?
A Not to my recollection, no.
Q Do you recall whether they had a color,
the ones that you used at Ciba Geigy?
A No. I recall that they were white. Thats
about the most I can recall of them.
Q The Teflon gaskets that you used at Ciba
Geigy, those were pre-formed gaskets?
A Yes.
Q Did you have to do any cutting or
punching of those gaskets?
A No.
Q When you — did you have to replace or,
Im sorry, did you have to remove old Teflon gaskets at
Ciba Geigy?
A All of them? I dont know.
Q Old.
A Old ones?
Q Right.
A Yes.
Q Did that process require any scraping of
the glass?
A Sometimes there might have been a little residue
on the glass. Just scrape that off. It wasnt that
much; but there was some.
Q How long would that take, typically?
A Five minutes.
Q All right. Did that create any dust?
A Didnt notice it.
Q I want to ask you a couple of questions
about the fact that the Teflon jacket gaskets were only
recently brought into the case or talked about in this
case.
And I understand that youve made an amendment
to your earlier answers to interrogatories to include a
description of using these Teflon gaskets at Celanese
and Ciba Geigy.
Can you explain to me how it was you recalled
using these Teflon gaskets after you had already
answered interrogatories in this case?
A Just giving it some deep thought and thinking
about the different glass lines that we had. And it
entered my head that we did use them specifically on
glass lines.
Q All right. What process did you go
through, yourself, in trying to recollect the types of
products you worked with, when you answered your
interrogatories initially?
A Just brain picking, mostly. And trying to
recall a lot of the stuff that I worked with through
the years. And I did work with asbestos and their
products.
Q Was there anything that you read or saw
or any kind of conversation you had that jogged your
memory as to use of Teflon jacket gaskets?
A I cant recall.
Q Since you answered your interrogatories
initially and underwent a discovery deposition, this
same procedure some years ago, have there been any
materials or books that youve looked at since that
time?
A No.
Q And when I say that, I mean with regard
to recollecting or identifying any products you used.
A No. Didnt look at anything.
MR. HOFFMAN: I think thats all I have
for you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MADDEN:
Q Were you ever involved in the original
installation in Ciba Geigy where they installed the
Teflon covered asbestos gaskets?
A I dont recall being involved in original
installations. They were done by outside contractors
and we were involved with repairs.
Q So is it accurate to state you would
only be involved with the Teflon gasket if you were
replacing a Teflon gasket into a pipeline or vessel?
A Yes.
Q When you go to the crib, the tool crib,
and pick up certain sizes of the Teflon gaskets, there
would be no dust involved with that? Any asbestos
dust?
A Not to my knowledge. I never took that much
care to see if there was a little dust or not.
I never took that much of a notice of it.
Q I dont mean dust on the outside. I
mean dust leaking out from the Teflon which
encapsulated the asbestos.
A They would sometime fall apart, but I never took
that much notice of it.
Q Then when you installed them on the
glass line or the glass vessels, was there any dust
involved in that?
A No. I dont think so.
Q No further questions.
(Whereupon a recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ONSDORFF:
Q Are you all right?
A Yeah.
Q Mr. Vassalli, my name is Kim Onsdorff.
The firm I work for represents one of the defendants in
this matter also.
Let me get a preliminary question, if I could.
I dont know whether the record reflects it or not.
It is true we took a short break so that you
could get more medication. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us what medication you went
home to take?
A Percocet. There it is.
Q And you took one dose of that?
A Yes. Im supposed to take it with milk and
after some food; but I just took it with some milk when
I went home. Thats what I just did now.
Q Your taking that medication now, will
that affect your ability to recall, at all, at this
time?
A No. I dont think so at all. No.
Q Okay. Thank you, sir.
Earlier today, Mr. Vassalli, you testified that
when Nova Insulation was working at Ciba Geigy, one of
the products that you recall using was Keasbey.
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And I believe you said that was a pipe
covering?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall seeing the name Keasbey
associated with that product?
A I vaguely remember seeing it, yes.
Q And do you recall where you saw that?
A I recall seeing it in the places where I worked;
Ciba and I guess even I would say even in Celanese.
I just remember seeing it. I never specifically
said Im using this particular type of covering.
I just remember seeing it and thats how I
recall it.
Q Well, right now Im directing my
questions to the times that you saw it in connection
with Nova.
A Yes.
Q When I said do you recall seeing it, I
meant did you see it on the pipe covering itself or on
a box? Do you recall?
A I think it would be on the box. But I dont
recall that well. Its sometime ago.
Q Okay. But you have a specific
recollection of seeing the name Keasbey?
A Yes.
Q Was that the full extent of the name
that you remember seeing or was there more to the name
than just Keasbey?
A Thats about all I recall.
Q Now?
A See in our line of work, whatever we did,
whatever we needed, we got it, we used it. We never
made note of whatever the product was.
Whatever I recall now, thats how I mentioned
it.
Q So you also have a recollection that you
personally used that product. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And your recollection is that you used
it at both Ciba and Celanese?
A Yes.
Q I believe you testified earlier that
when Nova was working at Ciba Geigy they also used a
product by the name of Kaylo. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if you saw one or the other
more, when the people from Nova were working there?
A No, I cant recall that.
Q Did the people that worked for Nova,
were they involved in strictly renovation at Ciba Geigy
or also involved in new construction?
A I would say in both. Renovation and new
installation.
Q New construction and renovation?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any recollection of a
specific building or insulation at Ciba Geigy that
would have had new construction that Nova was involved
in?
A No. We had so many buildings that whenever –
we had, besides our maintenance crew, we had outside
contractors working there.
One specifically was Laughton and Burns. And
wherever they did their thing, when they got done, the
insulator would go there and do it.
But as far as my saying specifically in building
A, B or C, I cant tell you for sure.
Whenever something new was put into it, then the
outside insulators were on it.
They were union insulators, to my knowledge.
Thats how it came about.
Q The Keasbey product that was being used
by Nova at Ciba Geigy, do you have any recollection of
ever seeing anyone deliver that product to that
location?
A There were trucks coming all the time delivering
different things. I cant recall a truck that said
this or said that. I cant.
There was plenty of action all the time. Like I
said, new construction going on. Outside contractors
and we just did more or less repair work or
maintenance.
Q So that when you were using a Keasbey
product, it was in conjunction with repair work or
maintenance?
A Yes.
Q And you dont have any recollection of
who might have delivered that product to the site?
A No. There were just trucks coming in. And then
they had the storage place and they would put it there.
They had different size covering and whatever.
And I dont recall exactly too much more about
who delivered it.
I know that the outside union contractors were
the ones that mostly used the products.
Q Would that have been true for Keasbey
also?
A I would say so, yes. And, like I said, we just
did whatever little repair work we had to do.
Q And your recollection is that was a pipe
covering product. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Any other type of product that you
recall that was a Keasbey product?
A No, not really.
Q In addition to Nova at Ciba Geigy,
youve also recalled Keasbey at Celanese. Is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q And that recollection was that it was a
pipe covering?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any other recollection of
Keasbey at Celanese, other than it was a pipe covering?
A No. I cant say that I have. It was quite
sometime ago. Especially in Celanese.
That was in the sixties. So I cant pinpoint it
or say definitely, you know.
Q That was a period of time that covered
from 1961 to 1966. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a recollection of seeing the
Keasbey product there during that whole course of time?
A I would say yes.
Q In addition to your using the Keasbey
product which youve already testified to at Celanese,
do you recall seeing anyone else who used it there?
A Im pretty sure the outside coverers did. The
union outside pipe coverers that belonged to the union.
Im sure they did.
Q Do you know who they worked for?
A No. We were — if we bumped into them or worked
next to them, we talked. And they discussed who they
were working for or whatever. But I never made a
mental note of it.
Q And again when you were using the
Keasbey product at Celanese, was that primarily for
repairs and renovation?
A A lot of times when we did some small new jobs I
would use it, yes.
Q In addition to repairs and renovation?
A Right. Yes.
Q Do you recall where those new jobs were?
What building?
A No. They had a lot of crawl space under the
main building and in the pilot plant also.
Q Do you know, aside from when you used it
for new construction work, what buildings you were
using the Keasbey product in at Celanese?
A Celanese, no, not really.
Q Do you know if you used it in all of the
buildings?
A Oh, I would say yes. Specifically, I cant say.
Its been sometime ago. I know we used it. I saw it
around.
Q The insulators who would have used it at
Celanese, were they using it for new construction or
renovation? Do you know?
A Yes, for both. Whatever reason, yes.
Q For both?
A Um-hum (Yes).
Q Do you have any recollection of any
project that was a new construction project where they
would have used the Keasbey product?
A I would say in the pilot plant most of the new
construction was going on.
Q Was the pilot plant built while you were
there?
A Yes. And they added to it then. I think later
they put a new building in, too, but I cant recall
that.
Q A new building separate and apart from
the pilot plant?
A Um-hum (Yes).
MR. ONSDORFF: I dont have any other
questions, thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. LAHIFF:
Q Mr. Vassalli, my name is Jeanne Lahiff.
I work for McCarter and English in Newark, New Jersey.
Do you know what the initials A. C. & S. stand
for?
A No.
Q Have you ever seen the initials A. C. &
S. on any packaging?
A I might have.
Q But you cant say definitively that you
have or have not?
A No.
Q Okay. When did you first become aware
of the dangers of asbestos?
MS. KIZIS: Hold on just a second.
If you had the opportunity to review the
prior transcript, all these questions were
covered at great length.
The purpose for this deposition today is
to update anything that happened since 1990 and
give opportunity to counsel for the defendants
who have been added to this case, to ask
whatever they would like.
I, frankly, dont remember off the top of
my head whether your firm was present; but given
the time frame when this was done I have to
believe that they were.
If you only have a couple things, Ill
let you; but if this is going to be a long time,
I have to object because he has been through
this already.
MS. LAHIFF: I understand. I only have
a couple of questions.
MS. KIZIS: Mark Wiseman was here and
cross examined. And Ill give you a couple
questions leeway; but I cant permit him to be
redeposed on areas that havent changed and were
covered before.
Go ahead.
Q Are you aware that there are warnings on
cigarettes?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
Q Are you aware that there are warnings on
cigarette products?
A Yes.
Q When did you first become aware of them?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I cant even recall. I
guess in the early seventies.
Q Did you do anything in response to these
warnings?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I cut down on smoking, if
it helped any. And 16 years ago, when my
granddaughter was born, I stopped smoking
entirely. I quit smoking.
Q Was that because your granddaughter was
born?
A No. Because of what I heard. What I heard
about cigarette smoking.
Q What had you heard about cigarettes?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Pardon?
Q What had you heard about cigarettes?
A Well, they can give you lung cancer or can be
detrimental to your health.
Q Okay. That was 16 years ago?
A Yes. Thats when I quit, yes. I think I might
have heard it sooner, but thats my answer.
Q So there was a period of time during
which you were aware of the warnings, but you continued
to smoke?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q Did a doctor ever recommend your
stopping smoking?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q When did a doctor first recommend this.
A I would say in the early seventies.
Q Did you do anything in response to this?
A In the late sixties, I believe.
Q Did you do anything in response to these
warnings by doctors?
MS. KIZIS: Objection. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Say that again, please.
Q Did you do anything in response to the
warning that your doctor gave you?
A I cut down on smoking.
Q When you say cut down, by how much did
you cut down?
A Id say by about 25 percent.
Q Okay. I have no further questions,
thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GANDELMAN:
Q Sir, my name is Perry Gandelman. I just
have a couple of questions for you.
Sir, earlier you told us about removing gaskets
from pumps and piping. Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q You told us that you had to scrape that
material out of there?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever have to use an air hose to
blow any of that material out of the place where the
gasket was?
A Yes.
Q Would that create dust?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Did you breathe any dust when you
were using the air hose to take out the gaskets?
A I would say so, yes.
Q Now I want to go back to when you told
us you were at, I believe, Ciba Geigy when you recalled
Nova?
A Yes.
Q Is that right? Okay. Do you have any
idea where Nova came from?
Were they from north Jersey, central Jersey? Do
you know?
A No idea.
Q Do you know how many men Nova employed
while you were at Ciba Geigy?
A To the best of my recollection, they had one man
steady. Now when they had a bigger job he would call
for more men or another man or whatever and when they
brought in other supplies.
Q What is the largest or greatest number
of men that you recall from Nova working at Ciba Geigy
for a particular job?
A I cant recall numbers. I would say three or
four at the most. I cant say more than that.
Q How could you distinguish a Nova person
from another outside contractor?
Did they have a certain uniform?
A No. I dont believe any of them had uniforms.
I think they just wore the regular street clothes and
they had the respirators or whatever. And we were
talking to each other. They would mention that they
worked for this company or whatever.
Q Do you recall any of the names of any of
the persons that worked for Nova?
A No.
Q Did they have their own trucks, the Nova
people?
A I dont remember.
Q Do you recall what years the Nova people
were at Ciba Geigy?
A No.
Q Can you estimate in any way?
A No. I know that they were different companies,
different people. And I cant say which one was which.
I cant say honestly.
Q Can you say how many years in total you
would have seen these Nova people?
A No. I couldnt differentiate.
Q Do you recall any specific job that the
Nova people were working on in a particular building,
lets say?
A They would be working throughout all the
different buildings. I cant say specifically this
building or that building. They were throughout the
whole plant. In the boiler room. All over.
Q Okay. But I think you told us at times
there was just one Nova person. Is that right?
A I think they had one man steady, but I dont
know for sure if that was Nova. But I know they had
men on there steady. And when they had a bigger job,
they would call for more men.
I wasnt involved with how they worked it or who
called them to work in or whatever.
Q Okay. Do you recall any specific jobs
that you were doing where the Nova person was present?
A No. If we were in a chemical building and they
were doing their thing –
Q I dont want you to say if you dont
specifically recall.
A When we were in a chemical building and they
were doing their thing and we were working on piping or
whatever, we would be working in the same area.
But more than that I cant specify.
Q Okay. Now how did you know the brands
of the material that the Nova people were working with?
Were you just assuming or guessing?
A I could recall seeing some names on boxes and
whatever. But, more than that I cant say.
Q And you specifically recall the Nova
people using those materials?
A No.
Q Okay. And you never were employed as a
supervisor, supervising the Nova people, were you?
A No.
Q And you had your own separate job
duties, separate from the Nova people. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, you never ordered any materials for
the Nova people, did you?
A No.
Q Would you have any way of knowing how
the materials that the Nova people used got to the Ciba
Geigy job site?
A No. Because where they brought their equipment
in, we would just know that it would — whoever trucked
it in would bring it in.
I have no way of knowing.
Q You never unloaded Nova trucks, did you?
A No, sir.
MR. GANDELMAN: Thats all the questions
I have. Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. CHESTER:
Q My name is Gary Chester. I represent
Woolsulate. I have a few questions.
On what occasions do you recall Woolsulate being
present at Ciba Geigy?
A Speaking with the union insulators their name
was mentioned and different people that we worked with
mentioned their names, that they were on our job site
and working there.
Q And when did you speak with the union
insulators?
A Different times during my working time I would
speak to them.
Q Do you remember the names of any of the
insulators who mentioned Woolsulate to you?
A No.
Q Did you see any trucks there indicating
that they were from Woolsulate?
A No.
Q Did any of the workers wear any uniforms
or other clothing indicating they worked for
Woolsulate?
A Not to my knowledge, no.
Q During what time period was Woolsulate
at Ciba Geigy?
A I cant specifically say; but I think all my
working time there from the seventies on. Thats my
recollection.
Q And the recollection, is it based on
anything more than speaking with union insulators at
the job site?
A No.
Q Do you have any specific recollection of
working with employees from Woolsulate?
In other words, did you do the same job as any
employees from Woolsulate while you were at Ciba Geigy?
A Like I repeated, if they were working on
something and we were working on something else in the
same building, we would see each other and maybe
converse with each other.
Q And to your knowledge, those insulators
may or may not have been from Woolsulate.
Is that correct?
A Um-hum (Yes). Correct. Yes.
Q Are you able to name one Woolsulate
worker who worked at the same time you did at Ciba
Geigy?
A No.
Q Now other than the Philip Carey and the
Kaylo product that you testified to earlier, now that
youve had a little time and Ill ask you to take your
time, can you name any other asbestos containing
products used at Ciba Geigy by individuals that you
thought were working for Woolsulate?
A Repeat that, please.
Q Okay. Other than what youve testified
to already, are you able to indicate for us any other
products which may have been used by workers from
Woolsulate at Ciba Geigy?
A No.
Q When you testified that a certain
asbestos containing powder was present at Ciba Geigy,
were you referring to the Philip Carey pipe covering or
did you make a distinction between two different
products?
A I think it was more of the powdered.
Q Do you know the manufacturer of the
powder?
A I think that was Philip Carey.
Q And on what basis did you testify that
this particular product was used by Woolsulate?
A It was on our job site and I saw it there and
thats what my feeling was that they brought it in.
Q Were there other insulating contractors
at Ciba Geigy at the same time as Woolsulate was there?
A There might very well have been; but I dont
know.
Q And what was the basis for your
testimony that Woolsulate used a product known as Kaylo
at Ciba Geigy?
A I think that was the pipe covering, to my
knowledge. That was their pipe covering.
Q All Im asking is what is your knowledge
based upon. Is it based upon conversations with other
workers or something else?
A Conversations with other workers and seeing it
on some of their — I recall seeing it on some cartons
or whatever. Just — its a vague memory.
Q Well, if it was there, is it possible
that it was brought there by an insulating contractor
or entity other than Woolsulate?
A I cant answer that honestly, no.
Q You dont know?
A No, I dont.
MR. CHESTER: Okay. Thats all I have.
Thank you, sir.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARCUS:
Q Mr. Vassalli, my name is Michael Marcus.
My firm represents another one of the defendants that
has been named in this lawsuit. I just have a few
questions for you.
Have you ever heard of Burns & Roe Enterprises,
Incorporated?
A I cant say that I have.
Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge that
Burns & Roe Enterprises had any material and/or workers
present at any of the sites that you worked at?
A To my knowledge, no.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to why
Burns & Roe was named as a defendant in this lawsuit?
A I cant recall.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any Burns &
Roe products being used at any of the sites where you
worked?
A Right now I cant recall.
MR. MARCUS: Thats all I have, thank
you.
MR. HOFFMAN: I have one follow up.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOFFMAN:
Q Mr. Vassalli, Im sorry. I was
interested before in the Teflon jacket gaskets. When
you testified at Ciba Geigy and at Celanese that you
did work with removing and replacing gaskets on pumps,
was any of that gasket material the Teflon jacket
gasket or was that another type of gasket material?
A Repeat that question, please.
Q You indicated earlier during your
deposition you worked on pumps and did removal and
replacement of gaskets on pipes that led to and from
the pumps. Was any of the gasket material the Teflon
gasket material or was that strictly involved with the
glass piping?
A I think they could have been on both; but for
sure I cant give you a straight answer.
Q So as you sit here right now, you cant
specifically recall Teflon jacket gaskets being used on
the pumps?
A At the time I cant recall, no.
MS. KIZIS: The video deposition is in
the same room here on the eighth.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Deposition concluded at 2:04 p.m.)

C E R T I F I C A T E

I, CAROL G. DeBARTOLO, a Certified
Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporterand Notary Public of the States of New Jersey and New
York, do hereby certify that prior to the commencementof the examination.

DANIEL VASSALLI
was duly sworn by me to testify the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth.
I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing isa true and accurate transcript of the testimony as
taken stenographically by and before me at the time,place and on the date hereinbefore set forth.
I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a
relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of anyof the parties to this action, and that I am neither a
relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel, andthat I am not financially interested in the action.

———————————— CAROL G. DeBARTOLO, C.S.R.
N.J. License No. X100824 N.J. No. 165846
My Commission expires on September 27, 1995