Robert Keasbey Asbestos Installation Part 2

147

1 WALTER J. BARILE, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s) MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 vs. LAW DIVISION
3M COMPANY, INC., et als., DOCKET NO.: L-7862-07
3 Defendants.
——————————-
4 RONALD DeMAYO, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s), MIDDLESEX COUNTY
5 vs. LAW DIVISION
AMCHEM PRODUCTS, INC., et als., DOCKET NO.: L-8044-06
6 Defendants.
——————————-
7 MICHAEL C. GERDING, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s), MIDDLESEX COUNTY
8 vs. LAW DIVISION
3M COMPANY, INC., et als., DOCKET NO.: L-8360-06
9 Defendants.
——————————-
10 WILLIAM GRAU, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s), MIDDLESEX COUNTY
11 vs. LAW DIVISION
ALFA LAVAL, et als., DOCKET NO.: L-7959-07
12 Defendants.
——————————-
13 ERNEST HORVATH, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s), MIDDLESEX COUNTY
14 vs. LAW DIVISION
CHEVRON USA, et als., DOCKET NO.: L-2068-06
15 Defendants.
——————————-
16 PATRICIA M. MAKOWSKI, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s) MIDDLESEX COUNTY
17 vs. LAW DIVISION
AGILENT TECHNOLOGIES, et als., DOCKET NO.: L-6531-06
18 Defendants.
——————————-
19 CHARLES WECKER, et als., SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
Plaintiff(s) MIDDLESEX COUNTY
20 vs. LAW DIVISION
3M COMPANY, INC., et als., DOCKET NO.: L-9455-06
21 ——————————-
VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION
22 UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
FRANK SCHERER, DAY 2
23
Brody Deposition Services
24 90 Woodbridge Center Drive, Suite 220
Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095
25 (732) 283-5737

148

1 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the
witness, called for Oral Examination in the
2 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken
pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and
3 Procedure, by and before MARC BRODY, a Notary Public
and Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of
4 New Jersey, at the MOLLY PITCHER INN, 88 Riverside
Avenue, Red Bank, New Jersey on Monday, April 28,
5 2008, commencing at approximately 9:00 in the forenoon.

7 A P P E A R A N C E S:

9 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C.

10 127 Maple Avenue

11 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701

12 (732) 747-9003

13 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ.

14 Attorneys for Plaintiff(s)

16 WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, P.A.

17 90 Woodbridge Center Drive

18 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095

19 (732) 636-8000

20 BY: ANGELO CIFALDI, ESQ.

21 Attorneys for witness, Frank Scherer

149

1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

3 PEPPER HAMILTON, LLP

4 301 Carnegie Center

5 Princeton, New Jersey 08543

6 (609) 451-4118

7 BY: ANTHONY DESTRIBATS, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Honeywell

10 DRINKER, BIDDLE & REATH

11 500 Campus Drive

12 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

13 (973) 360-1100

14 BY: MARK R. GALDIERI, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Neles-Jamesbury

17 EPSTEIN & GILBERTI, P.A.

18 21 East Front Street

19 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701

20 (732) 747-4700

21 BY: SANDY COHEN, ESQ.

22 Attorneys for Defendant, Crane Co.

150

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS, LLP

4 40 Paterson Street – Box 480

5 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08902

6 (732) 545-4717

7 BY: APRIL GLOGOWER, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, Industrial Welding,

9 Perimeter Insulation, Moser Bros., W.W. Grainger

11 REILLY, JANICZEK & McDEVITT, P.C.

12 2500 McClellan Boulevard

13 Merchantville, New Jersey 08109

14 (856) 317-7180

15 BY: KAREN STANZIONE, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendants, ITT, Magnatrol

17 Cleaver Brooks, Leeds & Northrup

19 PICILLO, CARUSO, POPE, EDEL & PUCINI, P.C.

20 60 Route 46 East

21 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004

22 (973) 667-6000

23 BY: MARCIA DE POLO, ESQ.

24 Attorneys for Defendant, Union Carbide,

25 Amchem, Notte, Certainteed

151

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 GARRITY, GRAHAM, FAVETTA & FLINN, P.C.

4 One Lackawanna Plaza

5 Montclair, New Jersey 07042-4205

6 (973) 509-7500

7 BY: SARIT WEITZ, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, State Insulation,

9 United Conveyor

11 LANDMAN, CORSI, BALLAINE & FORD, P.C.

12 One Gateway Center

13 Newark, New Jersey 07102

14 (973) 623-2700

15 BY: ROSARIO M. PATANE, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendant, Bechtel

18 GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP

19 200 Park Avenue

20 New York, New York 10166

21 (212) 801-9200

22 BY: LORING I. FENTON, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Robert A. Keasbey

152

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.A.

4 23 Vreeland Road

5 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

6 (973) 822-1110

7 BY: THOMAS MCNULTY, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, Flowserve, Sloan,

9 Leslie Triangle, Durametallic, Kramer Gunite,

10 John Wallace, J. Heller, Madsen & Howell,

11 Hercules, Safeguard

13 McCARTER & ENGLISH, LLP

14 100 Mulberry Street, Gateway 4

15 Newark, New Jersey 07102

16 (973) 622-4444

17 BY: EVOLEA WATSON, ESQ.

18 Attorneys for Defendant, American Standard

20 HARDIN, KUNDLA, McKEON & POLETTO, P.A.

21 673 Morris Avenue, P.O. Box 730

22 Springfield, New Jersey 07081-1512

23 (973) 912-5222

24 BY: MICHAEL JARDIM, ESQ.

25 Attorneys for Defendant, Strahman Valves

153

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 KEVIN C. GRUBB, ESQ., P.A.

4 The Concourse at Beaver Brook

5 1465 Route 31

6 P.O. Box 546

7 Annandale, New Jersey 08801

8 (908) 238-9400

9 BY: ANNE McNUTT, ESQ.

10 Attorney for Defendant, Union Pump

12 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN

13 216 Haddon Avenue

14 Westmont, New Jersey 08108

15 (856) 858-7200

16 BY: JASON SCHEETS, ESQ.

17 Attorneys for Defendants, H.K. Ferguson,

18 Woolsulate, United Engineers, Furino,

19 Ideal Supply, Badger, Record Industrial,

20 Karnak, Melrath, Central Jersey

154

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER, COLEMAN & GOGGIN

4 200 Lake Drive East, Suite 300

5 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08022

6 (856) 414-6000

7 BY: PAUL JOHNSON, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, D.B. Riley,

9 Henkels & McCoy

11 TIERNEY LAW OFFICES

12 116 Village Boulevard

13 Princeton, New Jersey 08540

14 (609) 734-7430

15 BY: JULIE PATCHELL, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendants, A.J. Friedman,

17 Elizabeth Industrial, Guyon General Piping

19 DELANY & O’BRIEN

20 325 Chestnut Street

21 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106

22 (215) 829-4510

23 BY: DEAN C. SEMAN, ESQ.

24 Attorneys for Defendants, OK Electric,

25 American Industrial Supply

155

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH, P.C.

4 1600 Market Street

5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103

6 (215) 979-8200

7 BY: MICHAEL KSIAZEK, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, ACL

10 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, P.C.

11 100 Southgate Parkway

12 Morristown, New Jersey 07962-1997

13 (973) 538-4006

14 BY: THOMAS COFFEY, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, DuPont

17 O’TOOLE, FERNANDEZ, WEINER & VAN LIEU

18 60 Pompton Avenue

19 Verona, New Jersey 07044

20 (973) 239-5700

21 BY: MIGUEL H. GARCIA, ESQ.

22 Attorneys for Defendant, Clark Reliance

156

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 ECKERT, SEAMANS, CHERIN & MELLOTT, LLC

4 50 South 16th Street

5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

6 (215) 851-8400

7 BY: RACHEL CASTILLO ROSSER, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, CBS

10 HOLLSTEIN, KEATING, CATTELL,

11 JOHNSON & GOLDSTEIN, P.C.

12 750 Route 73 South

13 Marlton, New Jersey 08053

14 (856) 810-8860

15 BY: STUART M. GOLDSTEIN, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendant, Chicago Bridge & Iron

18 SCHNADER, HARRISON, SEGAL & LEWIS, LLP

19 1600 Market Street

20 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103

21 (215) 751-2000

22 BY: ALLISON SNYDER, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, E&B Mill Supply

157

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 POTTERS & DELLA PIETRA, LLP

4 100 Passaic Avenue

5 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004

6 (973) 575-5240

7 BY: MICHELE DeLUCA, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Ford, Bacon & Davis, Inc.

10 SEGAL, McCAMBRIDGE, SINGER & MAHONEY, LTD.

11 830 Third Avenue

12 New York, New York 10022

13 (212) 651-7500

14 BY: ROBERT RIGOLOSI, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendants, Garlock, BW/IP

17 SEDGWICK, DETERT, MORAN & ARNOLD, LLP

18 3 Gateway Center

19 Newark, New Jersey 07102

20 (973) 242-0002

21 BY: JACK McGUIRE, ESQ.

22 Attorneys for Defendants, Foster Wheeler,

23 General Electric

158

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 MARKS, O’NEILL, O’BRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C.

4 6981 North Park Drive, Suite 300

5 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08110

6 (856) 858-6110

7 BY: BRIAN D. PAGANO, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, Georgia Pacific,

9 Bayonne Plumbing

11 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS

12 40 Paterson Street – Box 480

13 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08902

14 (732) 545-4717

15 BY: DANIEL KUSZMERSKI, ESQ.

16 Attorneys for Defendants, Collins Packing,

17 EMCO Fittings, Hudson Iron & Metal,

18 P&H Mining, Joy Mining

20 MORGAN, LEWIS & BOCKIUS, LLP

21 502 Carnegie Center

22 Princeton, New Jersey 08540

23 (609) 919-6623

24 BY: CHRISTOPHER IANNICELLI, ESQ.

25 Attorneys for Defendants, Yarway, Sante Fe Braun

159

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 BARRETT, LAZAR & LINCOLN, LLC

4 145 West Passaic Street

5 Maywood, New Jersey 07607

6 (201) 843-5900

7 BY: DALE HIBBARD, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, A&M Hardware

10 McELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY &

11 CARPENTER, LLP

12 1300 Mt. Kemble Avenue

13 P.O. Box 2075

14 Morristown, New Jersey 07962

15 (973) 993-8100

16 BY: JOSEPH D. RASNEK, ESQ.

17 Attorneys for Defendants, Exxon/Mobil,

18 Invensys, Rockwell, A.O. Smith, Chevron,

19 Allen-Bradley

160

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 DICKIE, MCCAMEY & CHILCOTE

4 20 West Kings Highway, Suite 200

5 Haddonfield, New Jersey 08033

6 (866) 743-6334

7 BY: JAMES PAPA, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Conval, Inc.

10 KENT & McBRIDE, P.C.

11 555 Route 1 South

12 Iselin, New Jersey 08830

13 (732) 326-1711

14 BY: LISA PEREZ, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendants, Mooney, Koenig,

16 Marsam, Pulmosan, Binsky

18 PEHLIVANIAN, BRAATEN & PASCARELLA, LLC

19 2430 Route 34

20 Manasquan, New Jersey 08736

21 (732) 528-8888

22 BY: SYLVIA K. LEE, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Ingersoll-Rand

161

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 HARWOOD LLOYD

4 130 Main Street

5 Hackensack, New Jersey 07601

6 (201) 487-1080

7 BY: CYNTHIA MOLKENTHIN, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendants, Motion Control

9 Industries, (improperly impleaded as

10 Carlisle Motion Control Industries)

12 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.A.

13 23 Vreeland Road, Suite 220

14 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

15 (973) 822-1110

16 BY: JENNIFER HALLY, ESQ.

17 Attorneys for Defendants, DuroDyne,

18 Schering Plough, Joule Maintenance,

19 Lawrence Pump, Resco, Sid Harvey,

20 Central Boiler, Hayes Pump, Peerless,

21 Raritan Supply

162

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 LAW OFFICE OF SUSAN M. SCHILP

4 44 Stelton Road, Suite 210

5 Piscataway, New Jersey 08854

6 (732) 752-5001

7 BY: SUSAN M. DAY SCHILP, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Alfa Laval, Inc.

10 CLEMENTE MUELLER, P.A.

11 218 Ridgedale Avenue

12 Cedar Knolls, New Jersey 07927

13 (973) 545-8008

14 BY: JON HOFSAESS, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendants, Durabla, Squibb

17 HACK, PIRO, O’DAY, MERKLINGER, WALLACE &

18 McKENNA, P.A.

19 30 Columbia Turnpike

20 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932

21 (973) 301-6500

22 BY: ROBERT ALENCEWICZ, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Johansen

163

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 RONCA, HANLEY, NOLAN & ZAREMBA

4 Five Regent Street

5 Livingston, New Jersey 07039

6 (973) 994-2030

7 BY: STEPHEN MCEVILY, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, NYPCO

10 WILBRAHAM, LAWLER & BUBA

11 24 Kings Highway West

12 Haddonfield, New Jersey 08033

13 (856) 795-4422

14 BY: FLOYD W. COTLAR, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Nosroc

17 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, EDELMAN

18 & DICKER, LLP

19 33 Washington Street

20 Newark, New Jersey 07102

21 (973) 624-0800

22 BY: GINA CALABRIA, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, Ductmate Industries

164

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 HOFHEIMER, GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP

4 530 Fifth Avenue

5 New York, New York 10036

6 (212) 944-0500

7 BY: GARY SMITH, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American Corp.

10 MARON, MARVEL & CONSTANTINE

11 75 Montgomery Street

12 Jersey City, New Jersey 07302

13 (201) 369-0600

14 BY: RYAN E. GILBERT, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Industrial Holdings

16 Corp., f/k/a The Carborundum Company

18 LAVIN, O’NEILL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO

19 190 North Independence Mall West

20 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106

21 (215) 627-0303

22 BY: BASIL A. DISIPIO, ESQ.

23 Attorneys for Defendant, 3M Company

165

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 LAVIN, O’NEILL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO

4 190 North Independence Mall West

5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106

6 (215) 627-0303

7 BY: CAROLYN L. MCCORMACK, ESQ.

8 Attorneys for Defendant, M&M Mars, Inc.

10 MARIN GOODMAN, LLP

11 40 Wall Street

12 New York, New York 10005

13 (212) 661-1151

14 BY: MARGARET LOTITO, ESQ.

15 Attorneys for Defendant, Fluor Corporation

17 MORGAN, MELHUISH, ABRUTYN

18 651 West Mt. Pleasant Avenue

19 Livingston, New Jersey 07039

20 (973) 994-2500

21 BY: ROBERT J. MACHI, ESQ.

22 Attorneys for Defendant, Novartis

23 Pharmaceuticals Corp.

166

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d):

3 APPEARING VIA SPEAKERPHONE:

4 WILLCOX & SAVAGE

5 One Commercial Place, Suite 1800

6 Norfolk, Virginia 23510

7 (757) 628-5500

8 BY: ROBERT L. FOLEY, ESQ.

9 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American

167

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS PAGE

3 FRANK SCHERER

4 Continued Direct by Mr. Placitella 168

5 Cross by Mr. Machi 175

6 Cross by Ms. Lotito 178

7 Cross by Mr. Fenton 180, 255

8 Cross by Mr. Rasnek 249

9 Cross by Ms. Weitz 259

10 Cross by Mr. DiSipio 262

11 Cross by Mr. Hibbard 267

12 Cross by Mr. Smith 268

13 Redirect by Mr. Placitella 327

14 Cross by Mr. McGuire 328

17 E X H I B I T S

18 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

19 P-2 Universal Order Register – 168

20 Bates #000001 through #000375

22 D-1 The Asbestos Worker dated 331

23 February 1960

168

1 F R A N K S C H E R E R,

2 58 Haven Drive, Matawan,

3 New Jersey, previously sworn.

4 (Prior to the deposition, Exhibit P-2

5 was marked for Identification.)

6 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:

7 Q. Good morning. How are you?

8 A. Fine.

9 Q. How are you feeling today?

10 A. A little better, thank you.

11 Q. I want to ask you some follow-up questions about

12 the procedure you would go through historically when you

13 were doing your job. As I understand it, you told us

14 last time in addition to sometimes visiting the sites,

15 you would look at plans and specifications, correct?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 Q. What would you do with the plans and the

18 specifications?

19 A. Make a quantity take-off, read the

20 specifications to find out what materials or types of

21 materials were specified to be used in the work and then

22 prepare an estimate from that and submit a proposal.

23 Q. So for your entire career one of the

24 things you did was, you are familiar with how plans

25 and specifications work in terms of ordering

169

1 materials, et cetera?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did that change over the course of

4 time or was it always pretty much the same thing?

5 A. It was always pretty much the same in one

6 form or another.

7 Q. If you looked at, say you locked at a

8 drawing and the drawing had a manufacturer’s name on

9 it, was that something that you had to use or did

10 you have the ability to use other products?

11 A. It generally wasn’t a manufacturer’s name

12 on it, but if there was — it would be there more to

13 show a type of material that you would use and you

14 wouldn’t necessarily have to use that particular

15 type of material. I’m sorry, not the type. That

16 particular brand, but it was generally generic terms

17 rather.

18 Q. If there was a brand shown, for example,

19 how was it ultimately determined what brand you

20 would use? How was that documented at the end?

21 A. Generally in our proposal.

22 Q. What happened is you would look at the

23 plans and specs and you would give a proposal to the

24 building owner?

25 A. Yes. Whoever we were bidding to and we

170

1 would refer to the bid was in accordance with the

2 plans and specifications.

3 Q. And then after you submitted your bid what

4 would happen next?

5 A. If it was accepted we would receive a

6 written order from the customer and then proceed

7 with the work.

8 Q. How was it determined? What manufacturer

9 or brand name would you use? How was that

10 documented?

11 A. Generally wasn’t. We would use whatever

12 we had which met the specifications. Specifications

13 were generally say if it were a fiber job it would

14 state fiberglass insulation and give a K factor or

15 some other, and the smoke and flame spread that was

16 required and we would select the material and use it

17 from there. For example, if it said Guston Bacon

18 fiberglass you could use Owens-Corning fiberglass.

19 Q. Now, I’m going to show you what’s been

20 marked P-2 for Identification and I want to

21 represent that it has Bates numbers on the bottom.

22 375 pages. Tell me if you recognize what this is.

23 The good news is I’m not going to ask you to read

24 all that. Tell me what it is.

25 A. I’m having difficulty reading it. It

171

1 appears to be our contract ledger from New York.

2 Q. Was that a business record kept by Robert

3 A. Keasbey Company?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. Who kept the contract ledger?

6 A. It was kept in our New York office.

7 Q. What was the purpose of the contract

8 ledger?

9 A. Whenever a — when we got a new job or a

10 new contractor it would be assigned a number from

11 that book and the name of the job and customer and I

12 believe the amount of dollars that original contract

13 was for would be filled in on the book.

14 Q. Would it include accounts where you were

15 just supplying materials or just installation jobs?

16 Do you understand my question? Let me rephrase it,

17 bad question.

18 Would it include accounts that you had

19 where you only supplied materials?

20 A. No, it would not.

21 Q. That would be just a separate ordering

22 procedure?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So this book refers to actual contracts

25 you entered into for –

172

1 A. Contracts which we performed in the field.

2 Q. Now this one starts in — looks like it

3 starts somewhere in 1962. Do you know what

4 happened? Was there a predecessor to this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who maintained this in the New York

7 office?

8 A. I believe it was maintained by the order

9 clerk.

10 Q. It was maintained in part of the regular

11 course of business of Robert A. Keasbey?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was it part of their business to make this

14 kind of record?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When there’s a contract referred to in

17 here, what does that represent? Does that represent

18 the date the job was started, the date the contract

19 was signed? What –

20 A. The date we received the order.

21 Q. When you received an order you could start

22 the job right away or could it take some period of

23 time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. For instance, if you got an order for a

173

1 job in 1960 or ’61, it is possible that job would

2 not start for many months later?

3 MR. FENTON: Objection.

4 A. Yes, that could be. That could happen.

5 MR. PLACITELLA: What was the objection

6 for?

7 MR. FENTON: Is it possible.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

9 Q. If you got a job that went in the book say

10 in 1961 or 1960, when would that job generally

11 occur?

12 A. Generally the jobs we got in Jersey were

13 smaller jobs and we received the order, call into

14 New York, get the contract number and in some cases

15 you might start the next day, in some cases the next

16 week.

17 If you had a larger job, say a new

18 building that was being constructed, you might call

19 in, get the order and start preparing materials.

20 That job might not start for three to four months

21 and sometimes longer.

22 Q. If there were changes in that job would

23 they put a new number in the contract book or would

24 they work off the old number?

25 A. No, you work off the old number. Give it

174

1 a dash number. Dash one, dash two.

2 MR. PLACITELLA: What I’m going to do at

3 this point is I want to pass the witness.

4 The way I would suggest that we do it,

5 since there are deadlines in the DeMayo, it is up to

6 you, Angelo, in the DeMayo and the Horvath case, that

7 the lawyers in DeMayo and Horvath go first.

8 MR. CIFALDI: That would give us a little

9 more flexibility if we don’t finish so we don’t have

10 a court ordered dep.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: I’m assuming Keasbey

12 has the most questions, so in the context of DeMayo

13 and Horvath I think they should go after everybody

14 else asks their questions. I’m assuming from that

15 point forward you will have a lot of questions.

16 MR. CIFALDI: I wouldn’t anticipate

17 that many questions.

18 MR. PLACITELLA: Based upon his

19 presentation, I’m assuming they would. Anybody here

20 from DeMayo want to ask questions?

22 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MACHI:

24 Q. Good morning, sir, I’m Robert Machi. I

25 represent a company called Novartis Pharmaceutical

175

1 Corporation, used to be Sandoz. I just have a

2 couple of questions with regard to the testimony you

3 gave the other day concerning the work that Keasbey

4 did at the Sandoz facility, okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I believe you testified that Keasbey did

7 the insulation work at the Sandoz facility on new

8 construction, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You testified that work was done sometime

11 prior to 1970?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you be any more specific? Was it

14 the early ’60s, mid ’60s, later ’60s or you just

15 don’t know?

16 A. I’m not positive. It was — would have

17 been the late ’60s or early ’70s near as I can

18 remember.

19 Q. Do you remember the building designation

20 at all? I know you said it was a research building

21 with some lab rooms in it?

22 A. No, I don’t.

23 Q. So you don’t remember a number or a letter

24 or anything like that?

25 A. No.

176

1 Q. Now, you were asked at the first

2 deposition whether or not the insulation to the

3 piping was asbestos-containing insulation or

4 fiberglass insulation, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And correct me if I’m wrong but the first

7 time you were asked that question your answer was it

8 was probably fiberglass insulation, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have any reason to change that

11 testimony today?

12 A. No. I stated, if I recall, it was

13 probably fiberglass insulation, but that the

14 fittings were done with asbestos cement or

15 asbestos-containing cement.

16 Q. At your first deposition you described the

17 process of taking the bags of the cement, dry cement

18 and dumping it into a bucket and then mixing it,

19 correct?

20 A. Into what they call a mud tub, yes.

21 Q. Mud tub, okay. And this was — you were

22 asked questions about the insulation work that was

23 done in the hallways of the facility. Do you

24 remember?

25 A. Yes.

177

1 Q. Now, the process of taking the bags of

2 asbestos cement and dumping it into the mud tub,

3 where did that take place? Was that done in the

4 hallways in the vicinity of where the work was being

5 done?

6 A. It would normally, if there’s a

7 multi-story building it would normally be done on

8 the same floor that you were doing the work.

9 Exactly what location, I’m not sure.

10 Q. When you say the same floor it would be in

11 the hallways of the same floor where the work was

12 being done?

13 A. I can’t say either, exactly where.

14 Q. You were also asked questions with regard

15 to any interaction between Keasbey and people from

16 Sandoz. Do you remember that testimony?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, no one from Sandoz directed Keasbey

19 how to go about doing that work. Is that correct?

20 MR. CIFALDI: Objection to the form. What

21 do you mean by directed? Told him put this here,

22 this there, told him generally get the job done?

23 Could you be a bit more specific?

24 MR. MACHI: Well, more than put this here

25 and put this there.

178

1 Q. For example, they didn’t tell you how to

2 go about taking the bags of asbestos cement and

3 dumping it Into the tub?

4 A. No.

5 Q. They didn’t tell you how to apply the

6 cement?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Basically, they didn’t tell you how to go

9 about the job you were hired to do. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. That’s correct.

12 MR. CIFALDI: I just have a belated

13 objection to form because they obviously gave

14 specifications so one could interpret that as

15 directing them what to do and where to put it, so I

16 assume you weren’t including that in your question.

17 MR. MACHI: Just the actual work itself is

18 all I’m asking.

19 Q. Sir, that’s all I have. Thank you, very

20 much.

22 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. LOTITO:

23 Q. I’m Margaret Lotito and I have a couple of

24 quick questions. Last week you were asked –

25 MR. PLACITELLA: Who do you

179

1 represent?

2 MS. LOTITO: Fluor Corporation.

3 Q. You were asked last week in reference to

4 Chevron if you recognize the name Fluor Corporation

5 and your answer was yes. That’s accurate?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then you were asked if you associated them

8 with any product and you said no. Is that accurate?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So it would be fair to say you don’t

11 associate Fluor Corporation with any product or

12 equipment or property?

13 A. That’s correct.

14 MS. LOTITO: That’s all I have.

15 BY MR. PLACITELLA:

16 MR. PLACITELLA: Let me ask you one

17 question for clarification.

18 Q. Do you have your magnifying glass?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On P-2, page 43 there is an entry on the

21 top entry for 1963. Can you tell me what that entry

22 is? The very pop entry. Do you see it right there?

23 A. Sandoz Chemical, Hanover, New Jersey. I

24 think it says T and M.

25 Q. T and M, meaning what?

180

1 A. Time and materials.

2 Q. Does that mean it was a big job?

3 A. No, not necessarily. It was not a contract

4 job with a set price on it.

5 Q. You just were in there until you finished

6 the job basically?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to

9 whether you were in Sandoz in the early ’60s?

10 MR. MACHI: Objection.

11 MR. FENTON: Objection.

12 A. Yes, that date was, I forget ’63 was it?

13 Q. Right.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you.

16 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENTON:

19 Q. Mr. Scherer, I’m Loring Fenton from the

20 firm Greenberg Traurig. I am counsel for your

21 former employer, the Robert A. Keasbey Company.

22 Let’s just start with what Mr. Placitella

23 has marked for identification P-2, which you

24 described as the contract ledger. You testified

25 that this ledger was except in New York. Is that

181

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you worked out of New Jersey. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you have any personal

7 responsibility for preparing this ledger?

8 A. Not the actual writing of the information

9 in the ledger, but I would call the information or

10 my secretary would call the information to New York

11 to be placed in the ledger.

12 Q. I would appreciate it if you would try to

13 confine your answers to the questions I ask.

14 MR. CIFALDI: I think he did.

15 MR. FENTON: My question was simply

16 whether he personally prepared the ledger.

17 Q. Did you have any personal responsibility

18 for maintaining the ledger?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And do you know who did, the specific

21 individual?

22 A. There may have been more than one. One

23 who I can remember offhand was a gentleman by the

24 name of Bernie Dresser who was the chief order clerk

25 in New York.

182

1 Q. Am I correct that if you were to look at

2 any particular entry in P-2 that if you didn’t

3 specifically know that job there would be nothing in

4 the ledger itself to indicate whether asbestos was

5 used?

6 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

7 form of the question. It is a very big book. Is

8 there a specific example you could show him or point

9 to? I don’t know if every entry is the same.

10 Q. Take any page you like. Let’s look at

11 page 10. It your question is with regard to what

12 line?

13 MR. CIFALDI: Since he has to look at it

14 based upon your question, I want him to answer your

15 question. You should probably ask a particular

16 question as to a particular line, I would think

17 would be best.

18 Q. Let’s look at line 66 which I think says

19 J.L. Murphy, New York Hospital, New York City, for

20 example.

21 A. It got it. Okay. What would you like to

22 know about that line?

23 Q. Looking at that line is there any way to

24 tell whether or not that job involved the use of

25 asbestos?

183

1 A. No.

2 Q. To your knowledge would that be true for

3 all of the entries in the book?

4 MR. CIFALDI: Would you read that question

5 back.

6 (The above question is read back.)

7 MR. CIFALDI: Objection to form of the

8 question because it assumes he has no knowledge on

9 than any of the jobs. If he has knowledge on the

10 jobs and he could look at the site and then know it

11 is a job he was involved in and identified as

12 asbestos, is that the question, or are you asking

13 him looking at the contract book alone without

14 having any other information and blanking out his

15 mind, can he tell?

16 MR. FENTON: Exactly. I got you.

17 If you or I were to look at this book and you had no

18 personal knowledge of any of the job sites, would

19 you be able to tell with respect to any of the

20 entries whether asbestos was used.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Earlier in your deposition when it began

23 on April 22 you were asked questions about various

24 sites. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes.

184

1 Q. One of the sites that you were asked

2 questions about was the Chevron site?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you testified that from time to time

5 the Robert A. Keasbey Company did work at Chevron.

6 Is that right?

7 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection.

8 Mischaracterizes his testimony.

9 MR. CIFALDI: Also I would like to

10 place an additional objection on the record. This

11 is a discovery deposition. You are referring to a

12 prior transcript. You are summarizing his testimony

13 without showing him what he said and you are saying

14 is this true. Well, whatever he said at his prior

15 deposition he was under oath, so we assume it is

16 true. If you are going to use his prior deposition

17 to cross examine him, the court rules in New Jersey

18 indicate that you must show the witness the page and

19 line and let him review it. If that’s the function

20 you are doing I have no objection, but you have got

21 to show it to him.

22 MR. FENTON: I’m just drawing his

23 attention to the site.

24 Q. Mr. Scherer, with respect to that Chevron

25 site, do you know whether other companies did

185

1 insulation work there over the years?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I’m going to ask you a series of names and

4 ask you if you are familiar with and whether you

5 know whether or not those companies did any work at

6 Chevron. The first is a company by the name of

7 ACandS. Are you familiar with that company?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is ACandS?

10 A. Armstrong Contracting and Supply.

11 Q. And what business were they in?

12 A. Insulation contractors.

13 Q. Do you know whether they did work at

14 Chevron?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

17 American Insulation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what is the nature of their work?

20 A. They were an insulation contractor.

21 Q. Did they do work in the State of New

22 Jersey?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did AC&S do work in the State of New

25 Jersey?

186

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know whether American Insulation

3 did any work at Chevron?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How about a company by the name of Calon,

6 C A L O N?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was the nature of Calon’s work?

9 A. They were an insulation contractor.

10 Q. Do you know whether they did any work at

11 Chevron?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How about Charles S. Woods?

14 A. Insulation contractor.

15 Q. Do you know whether they did any work at

16 Chevron?

17 A. No.

18 A. Yes. I corrected those last two.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I’ll have to say no, not specifically.

21 They may have done work there, but I don’t recall

22 working alongside them.

23 Q. Do you know whether AC&S was bidding for

24 work at Chevron?

25 A. Yes, they were.

187

1 Q. Is the same true with respect to American

2 Insulation?

3 A. I’m not sure.

4 Q. How about Calon?

5 A. Yes, they were bidding.

6 Q. And Charles S. Woods?

7 A. I don’t recall.

8 Q. How about Chevron itself? Do you know

9 whether they did any insulation work on site?

10 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object. Do you

11 mean Chevron employers?

12 MR. FENTON: Chevron employees, yes.

13 A. Their maintenance men may have done work

14 on site. Not that I can recall seeing.

15 Q. How about a company by the name of Ehret,

16 E H R E T?

17 A. I’m not familiar with that name.

18 Q. H.K. Porter?

19 A. Yes, they were an insulation contractor.

20 They may have also — they bid and may also have

21 been doing work in the plant.

22 Q. You can’t specifically recall?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How about a company by the name of

25 Industrial Insulators?

188

1 A. That name sounds familiar, but I don’t

2 recall that either. I think that may have been

3 an insulation contractor that later went out of

4 business and just became a supplier out of Perth

5 Amboy.

6 Q. Can you associate that name with the

7 Chevron site?

8 A. No, not directly.

9 Q. How about a company by the name of Joule,

10 J O U L E?

11 A. Joule?

12 Q. Joule.

13 A. They were a non-union contractor. They

14 did plant maintenance work. Whether they did

15 insulation work, I don’t recall.

16 Q. Parkway Insulation?

17 A. Yes, insulation contractor.

18 Q. And do you know whether or not they bid on

19 any work at Chevron?

20 A. No, I don’t.

21 Q. And therefore you don’t know whether they

22 got any work at Chevron?

23 A. No. As far as I know, they didn’t.

24 Q. How about a company by the name of Peter

25 J. Sica or PJS?

189

1 A. No.

2 Q. Porter Hayden?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what was the nature of Porter Hayden’s

5 business?

6 A. They were an insulation contractor.

7 Q. To your knowledge did they do any work at

8 Chevron?

9 A. They probably did.

10 Q. Are you able to place a decade –

11 A. Just a moment. Can you give me context of

12 time on this?

13 Q. I going to say it.

14 MR. CIFALDI: He was going to ask you.

15 Q. Can you place in a particular decade when

16 you believe Porter Hayden may have done insulation

17 work at Chevron?

18 A. Porter Hayden, ACandS, Woolsulate

19 Corporation, they all did a rather large job there

20 when Chevron refurbished their plant. I believe

21 that was probably 1972 or later, or maybe when the

22 plant was redone. It was a huge project. We didn’t

23 have any part of that.

24 Q. You mentioned Porter Hayden, AC&S. Was

25 there a third company?

190

1 MR. CIFALDI: Woolsulate.

2 A. Woolsulate.

3 Q. I haven’t gotten to them yet. Other than

4 this large project you just discussed, do you

5 associate Porter Hayden with any insulation work at

6 Chevron at any other time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Are you able to place in time whether the

9 Robert A. Keasbey Company was still located at

10 Newark at the time of this ACandS, Porter Hayden,

11 Woolsulate job at Chevron?

12 A. That was just before or just after we left

13 Newark. I’m not positive.

14 Q. Can you remind us when Keasbey left

15 Newark?

16 A. 1972 to ’73.

17 Q. Are you –

18 A. More in ’73.

19 Q. Are you familiar with the name of a

20 company Schwalje, S C H W A L J E?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the nature of their business?

23 A. I don’t recall. I think they were a

24 supplier, but I’m not positive.

25 Q. Do you associate their name with the

191

1 Chevron site in any way?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

4 Sica?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

7 State?

8 A. State?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. State Insulation?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the nature of their business?

14 A. They were a supply house. I think that

15 may have been the one there was Industrial

16 Insulation before they went out of the contracting

17 business.

18 Q. Do you recall during what period of time

19 State was in the supply business?

20 A. They still are, as far as I know.

21 Q. Do you recall during what period of time

22 approximately Industrial Insulators went out of

23 business?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And we mentioned earlier Woolsulate. What

192

1 was the nature of their business?

2 A. Insulation contractor.

3 Q. You associated them with this large

4 project?

5 A. Yes. At Chevron in the ’72, ’73 era.

6 Q. Do you associate Woolsulate with any other

7 work at Chevron?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

10 Plibrico? P L I B R I C O.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the nature of their business?

13 A. I believe they installed or sold

14 refractory materials.

15 Q. Do you associate Plibrico with this

16 Chevron site?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

19 Chicago Bridge and Iron?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the nature of their business?

22 A. They were erectors of tanks, vessels,

23 steel. Maybe even whole plants.

24 Q. Do you know whether from time to time in

25 the course of their business they removed

193

1 asbestos-containing materials?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you associate the name Chicago Bridge

4 with the Chevron site?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How about a company by the name of Braun,

7 B R A U N?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was the nature of Braun’s business?

10 A. They were a construction manager.

11 Q. Do you associate Braun with the Chevron

12 site?

13 A. Not that I recall.

14 Q. You testified previously about a company

15 called Foster-Wheeler. Do you associate them with

16 the Chevron site?

17 A. Not that I can recall.

18 Q. A company by the name of A.K. Ferguson?

19 Are you familiar with them?

20 A. I believe we did some work for them there.

21 That may have been in conjunction to some work we

22 were doing for M.W. Kellogg at the Chevron site.

23 Q. Do you know whether or not from time to

24 time during the course of the work at Chevron, A.K.

25 Ferguson removed any asbestos-containing materials?

194

1 A. No, I don’t.

2 Q. How about with respect to M.W. Kellogg,

3 do you know whether they from time to time removed

4 asbestos-containing materials at the Chevron work

5 site?

6 A. No, I don’t?

7 Q. Are you familiar with a site in New Jersey

8 Warner Lambert?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that a site Keasbey did work at?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In general are you aware of any other

13 insulation companies that did any work at Warner

14 Lambert during the same time period?

15 A. No.

16 MR. CIFALDI: Could we identify the

17 facility, the location?

18 MR. PLACITELLA: I think it is Morris

19 Plains. That’s what I asked him about.

20 Q. Let me ask the witness if there’s a

21 particular town that the Warner Lambert facility is

22 located in?

23 A. Morris Plains. Warner Lambert and, I

24 believe, Warner-Chilcote. I don’t know if they are

25 one and the same or next to each other.

195

1 Q. For this series of questions I’ll be

2 talking about the Morris Plains Warner Lambert

3 facility.

4 Do you know whether Charles S. Woods did

5 any insulation work at Warner Lambert?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

8 Delta Insulation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was the nature of their business?

11 A. Insulation contractor.

12 Q. Do you know whether Delta Insulation did

13 any work at the Warner Lambert facility?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

16 Costfield Brothers?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How about do you know whether Parkway

19 insulation did any work at the Warner Lambert

20 facility?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

23 Wendel, W E N D E L?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the nature of Wendel’s business?

196

1 A. He was a mechanical contractor.

2 Q. Do you know whether Wendel did any work at

3 Warner Lambert?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know whether Woolsulate did any

6 work at Warner Lambert?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You testified about Allied Chemical in

9 Morristown as well?

10 MR. PLACITELLA: No, he didn’t. I

11 don’t have that on my list.

12 MR. FENTON: Strike that then.

13 Q. Are you familiar with an Allied Chemical

14 facility in Morristown?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

17 Tri-B?

18 A. What was that?

19 Q. T R I dash B.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the nature of Tri-B’s business?

22 A. It was an insulation contractor.

23 Q. Do you know whether Tri-B did any work at

24 Allied Chemical?

25 A. No.

197

1 Q. Do you know who supplied Tri-B with their

2 insulation materials?

3 A. No.

4 Q. As I understand it you worked for Keasbey

5 for approximately 32 years?

6 A. That’s correct.

7 Q. You have a brother Paul Scherer?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Was he also employed by Keasbey?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. And do you know approximately how long

12 Paul worked for Keasbey?

13 A. Probably started about five years before I

14 did and went on another five years after I left. He

15 was — about 42, 45 years.

16 Q. He worked out of New York?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know were there other employees at

19 Keasbey who worked as long as you and your brother?

20 A. Yes. Most of them. We were the youngest.

21 Q. So there were people who worked 40, 50

22 even longer at Keasbey?

23 A. That’s correct.

24 Q. When Mr. Placitella showed you what he

25 marked as P-1 for Identification, do you recall that

198

1 exhibit, the insulation brochure?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I believe you said it was issued for the

4 100th anniversary of the company?

5 A. That is right.

6 Q. Do you know approximately when the Robert

7 A. Keasbey Company was created?

8 A. I think it was in 1885.

9 Q. Do you know who founded it?

10 A. As far as I know it was Mr. Keasbey, Sr.

11 Q. Robert A. Keasbey?

12 A. Robert A. Keasbey, Aertsen Keasbey, Sr. or

13 his father.

14 Q. When you arrived at the company do you

15 recall who was in charge of the company?

16 A. Aertsen Keasbey, Sr. His son was

17 president, Jr.

18 Q. Aertsen Keasbey, Jr. was president?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did he have any brothers?

21 A. Yes. He had a brother Tom.

22 Q. Was Tom in the business?

23 A. He was in the business for a while as

24 labor supervisor.

25 Q. Do you recall approximately when he left?

199

1 A. No, I don’t. He was still labor

2 supervisor in 1963, around that time. It was — I

3 don’t really know when he left.

4 Q. So it was a family run business?

5 A. Basically, yes. There were other

6 principals in it also.

7 Q. From time to time did Aertsen Keasbey, Jr.,

8 come to the New Jersey offices?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Approximately can you tell us how often

11 Aertsen Keasbey, Jr., would come to New Jersey?

12 A. No. It would be sporadically.

13 Q. Do you know for what purpose he would come

14 to New Jersey?

15 A. Generally to say hello to everybody and

16 see how things were going.

17 Q. Did Aertsen Keasbey, Jr., ever accompany you

18 to any job sites in the field in New Jersey?

19 A. Not that I can recall.

20 Q. How about Tom Keasbey? From time to time

21 would he come to New Jersey?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you know for what purpose he would

24 come to New Jersey?

25 A. Occasionally to go to a job site. He was

200

1 a labor supervisor.

2 Q. Did you accompany him to job sites from

3 time too time in New Jersey?

4 A. Only once that I can remember.

5 Q. Do you recall what particular site that

6 was?

7 A. Yes. It was the Bell Telephone labs in

8 Holmdel.

9 Q. Did Tom Keasbey wear a mask at that site?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was there insulation work going on during

12 the period of time that Tom Keasbey was on site?

13 A. I don’t recall.

14 Q. Can you describe the physical layout of

15 the Keasbey facilities in Newark?

16 MR. CIFALDI: What time are we speaking

17 about?

18 Q. Good point. When you first arrived at the

19 company in 1954.

20 A. It was a large warehouse type building at

21 320, corner of Adams and Delancy Street in Newark.

22 The main building was two stories high, attached to

23 it there was a three-story building and attached to

24 that another two story building. Both of those

25 buildings when I first came there were leased out to

201

1 a different company. We mainly occupied the two

2 story building and the ground floor of the

3 three-story building.

4 The offices were on the second floor of

5 the main building. That building stretched almost

6 the whole block between Delancy the next block over,

7 which name I can’t recall offhand. There were also

8 some storage facilities out back, old sheds where we

9 kept ladders and equipment.

10 Q. When you arrived in 1954 was there any

11 warehouse associated with the Keasbey facility in

12 Newark?

13 A. All of it except that office space was

14 warehouse space.

15 Q. Where was the warehouse located in

16 relation to the second story offices?

17 A. Underneath it and off to the, I guess, the

18 southside of the building.

19 Q. Was the first floor of the three –

20 adjacent three-story building, was that warehouse

21 space?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And also the first floor of the main

24 building was warehouse space?

25 A. Yes.

202

1 Q. That was all being occupied and used by

2 Keasbey when you first arrived there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me ask you. When you left in the ’72,

5 ’73 era, and by you I mean when Robert A. Keasbey

6 left its Newark facility, was the space that Keasbey

7 was occupying essentially the same or had it

8 changed?

9 A. It had changed somewhat.

10 Q. Can you tell me when it first changed and

11 what the nature of the change was?

12 A. I can’t tell you when it was, but I can

13 tell you what the nature was.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. The buildings that we had leased or

16 portions we had leased, companies had left and we

17 took over the three story building, used part of

18 that. We used that for some storage space. I think

19 the rest of the buildings essentially remained

20 vacant.

21 Q. And did that remain essentially the same

22 until Keasbey left Newark?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to go back to 1954 when you first

25 got there. How did you get from the second story

203

1 office into the warehouses?

2 A. There were double doors on the one side of

3 the office that went directly into the warehouse on

4 sort of the front of the office. Behind there was a

5 small room almost like — maybe 20 feet by seven or

6 eight foot room with a doorway. You could go into

7 that room and there was another door at the opposite

8 end of that room that went into the warehouse There

9 was a staircase in the front and you could get into

10 the lower floor from that staircase.

11 Q. Was the staircase on the warehouse side of

12 the double doors that you described?

13 A. There was one, but it was way down the

14 other end of the building on the Delancy Street end,

15 but in the front of the building on the Adams Street

16 side where the main entry was. There was a stairway

17 that came up to the second floor and it was sort of

18 a foyer and a wall with a window in it where the

19 secretary sat or greeted anybody coming in and then

20 behind that was one large office for the manager and

21 there was the rest of the space for estimators and

22 clerks.

23 Q. When you got there, and again this whole

24 series of questions I’m talking about the period of

25 time from 1954 when you first got there until the

204

1 change that you described at some point. So during

2 that period of time, how was Keasbey using the

3 warehouse space in Newark?

4 A. To store material.

5 Q. What types of material?

6 A. You want a detailed description of it?

7 Q. I mean in general by material types.

8 A. The first floor basically the calcium

9 silicate and magnesia types of materials, heavy

10 design materials. It also had aluminum jacketing,

11 roofing materials, rolls of roofing materials.

12 The alleyway in the basement of the

13 three-story building was used for cements and also a

14 lot of the weather coating mastics. That stuff came

15 in 5 gallon drums.

16 Also on that floor we would have had a

17 wire stainless steel strapping accessory materials

18 like screws and stick clips and glues. I think down

19 at one end we may have kept some Rockwool blankets

20 also.

21 On the second floor, basically kept

22 fiberglass. There was a load of workboard up there.

23 Down the one end we kept miscellaneous materials

24 like Unibestos or calcium silicate or magnesia in

25 very large sizes we didn’t use very often. There

205

1 was also cutting tables for canvas. We kept eight

2 ounces, 4-ounce and pasted canvas. I guess that was

3 about it.

4 Q. Did Keasbey do any fabrication work of any

5 kind in the warehouses at Newark from ’54 up until

6 the time of the change?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When Aertsen Keasbey visited the Newark

9 office from time to time did he go into the

10 warehouse part of the facility?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how about Tom Keasbey, did he go into

13 the warehouse?

14 A. I don’t recall.

15 Q. How would you describe the atmosphere in

16 the warehouse facility at Keasbey from ’54 up until

17 the change?

18 MR. PLACITELLA: What do you mean by

19 atmosphere? Was it a friendly place?

20 MR. FENTON: I’m talking about the

21 quality of the air.

22 Q. Do you have a specific recollection of the

23 atmosphere?

24 MR. CIFALDI: At any particular time

25 during the vast time period he is talking about. If

206

1 not, just say you don’t know.

2 A. Generally it seemed all right.

3 Occasionally you drop a carton and the carton would

4 hit the floor and dust would come out, but it wasn’t

5 particularly — we never dusted anything out there.

6 Swept the floor occasionally.

7 Q. How about up to the time of this change,

8 whenever that occurred, until Keasbey left the

9 Newark facility in the ’72, ’73 time period, what

10 purpose was Keasbey using the warehouses for?

11 A. Same as it always did.

12 Q. During that period of time was any

13 fabrication work going on?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were any pipe covering or blocks materials

16 ever pre-cut to size before being shipped to the

17 site?

18 A. Not that I recall.

19 Q. From time to time during the 30 plus years

20 you were at Keasbey did you ever go to the Keasbey

21 facility in New York City?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall where they were located?

24 A. On West 19th Street and later on 23rd

25 Street.

207

1 Q. Approximately how frequently, whether you

2 went on a monthly, weekly, yearly, whatever is

3 convenient, how frequently would you visit the

4 Keasbey facility in New York?

5 A. Sporadically. I might have to bring

6 something over there. There was a time when I first

7 started with the company I went in and filled in for

8 a two week vacation for somebody. Occasionally I

9 went over to assist some estimating and occasionally

10 I had to go over and see Mr. Keasbey for one reason

11 or another, but not too often.

12 Q. Were there times where you might work a

13 full day at the West 19th Street facility?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And during those occasions would you go

16 into the warehouse?

17 A. Infrequently.

18 Q. But you were in the warehouse from time to

19 time?

20 A. I have been in the warehouse, yes.

21 Q. Do you know whether Keasbey did

22 fabrication work in the warehouse at West 19th

23 Street?

24 A. Yes, they did. They fabricated also on

25 this other top floor. They did some Rockwool

208

1 blanket fabrication.

2 Q. How about fabrication of

3 asbestos-containing materials?

4 A. Not that I saw.

5 Q. Did you ever — did your brother Paul ever

6 tell you about any fabrication work going on in the

7 West 19th Street warehouse?

8 A. Other than the blankets, no.

9 Q. Did you from time to time go out to job

10 sites in New York?

11 A. On occasion. Rare occasions.

12 Q. Do you recall if Aertsen Keasbey, Jr.

13 accompanied you on any of those occasions?

14 A. No he did not.

15 Q. How about Tom Keasbey?

16 A. No, he did not.

17 Q. Did you ever observe either of the

18 Keasbeys in the warehouse at West 19th Street?

19 A. Not that I can recall.

20 Q. What kind of a company was Keasbey like to

21 work for?

22 A. Excellent. Very good.

23 Q. Did your brother feel the same way?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Did other people tell you that they felt

209

1 the same way about Keasbey?

2 A. Mostly they all stayed there a long time.

3 Q. Do you know how many full time employees

4 Keasbey had at any given point? As a point of

5 clarification I’m talking about people who were

6 working full time for Keasbey and not people who

7 were shaping up at the union hall.

8 A. You have to be more clear on that also.

9 We had people who were union people.

10 Q. Who worked for Keasbey?

11 A. Who worked for Keasbey constantly, but

12 they were still union employees. Are you talking

13 about union employees?

14 Q. You can include the ones who were working

15 permanently for Keasbey.

16 A. I really don’t know.

17 Q. As part of your work first as an estimator

18 and then as the plant manager, did you see the

19 contracts that Keasbey would enter with the various

20 entities for whom they did work?

21 A. The what?

22 Q. With the companies who hired Keasbey,

23 would you see the contracts?

24 A. Yes. Not all of them, but generally the

25 ones I was involved in. They were more like

210

1 purchase orders rather than contracts.

2 Q. What sorts of information would you

3 included in these purchase orders?

4 A. They may be a general description of the

5 work and the prices and the terms and conditions

6 that they were going to pay.

7 Q. Would it also include the specs?

8 A. Not necessarily, but it might refer to

9 them.

10 Q. The plans and specifications might be

11 separate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As an estimator you would see the plans

14 and specifications regularly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What sort of information did the

17 specifications include?

18 A. It would include the work to be done. It

19 depends a lot on a particular job. If it were a

20 commercial job and it was something that was

21 produced by an engineer there would be a

22 specifications book or two of them and in there

23 there would be a second on insulation and that

24 section we refer to what systems had to be

25 insulated. For instance, the plumbing system, hot

211

1 and cold water and the purposes or type of material

2 that was to be used on and also what finishes were

3 to go on it and then there would be another

4 specification for the heating, ventilating work and

5 if there was sometimes, very rarely, you might

6 have a third specification if there was going to be

7 a process job involved.

8 Q. Who would prepare the specs on commercial

9 jobs?

10 A. Engineering firms.

11 Q. Who hired the engineering firms?

12 A. The owner. The owner of the building.

13 Q. Keasbey did not prepare specifications on

14 commercial jobs, right?

15 A. No, we didn’t in general prepare

16 specifications on any jobs.

17 Q. Was Keasbey required to follow the

18 specifications?

19 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

20 form. In what sense?

21 Q. Did Keasbey have to use the types of

22 materials that were specified?

23 A. The types?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Generally, yes.

212

1 Q. You say generally. Under what

2 circumstances might Keasbey not have to use the type

3 of material specified?

4 A. Well, a time when a particular type of

5 material might not be in good supply you might have

6 to use something else. There would also be times

7 when there might be a material which is more

8 suitable for use. We would recommend they use that

9 material. We might find that there were times

10 material that was specified was not suitable at all

11 for the use.

12 Q. Were there –

13 A. And we would go back to the engineers and

14 tell them that and in such cases they would do

15 revisions for the specifications.

16 Q. Did that happen with respect to commercial

17 jobs?

18 A. Not frequently. Occasionally.

19 Q. Can you recall any specific jobs where

20 that happened, commercial jobs?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where the engineer had specified an

23 inappropriate material?

24 A. I wouldn’t say it was inappropriate. Just

25 that say that the pricing came out which was much

213

1 too high and they were looking for a way to save

2 money and they asked for suggestions and we made

3 suggestions to change it.

4 Q. In the instances you identified where a

5 particular material might not be available in the

6 market place, what type of material would be

7 substituted?

8 A. The one I can remember offhand was the

9 Hess job which was done in 1985. That was all

10 specified to be calcium silicate and there was a

11 shortage of it at the time and most of the job was

12 done with fiberglass.

13 Q. That was in 1985?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And calcium silicate was specified?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know whether or not in 1985 calcium

18 silicate contained asbestos?

19 A. As far as my knowledge it did not.

20 Q. Was all calcium silicate used as a generic

21 term meaning it might contain asbestos, it might

22 not?

23 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

24 form in terms of time frame.

25 Q. In 1972 or ’73, for example?

214

1 A. It may have been used as a generic term,

2 yes, but there was no mention of asbestos, whether

3 it contained it or didn’t contain it .

4 Q. But at a point in which to your knowledge

5 calcium silicate no longer contained asbestos, there

6 was still materials available under that generic

7 name calcium silicate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know is that same thing true with

10 respect to magnesia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Are there any other materials you can

13 think of where the same generic description was

14 used at a time when materials no longer contained

15 asbestos other than calcium silicate?

16 A. They would refer to mineral wool cement.

17 It was understood mineral wool cement had some

18 asbestos in it at one time. Probably didn’t have it

19 in the late ’70s. Aircell and wool felt had gone

20 out of fashion. Didn’t use it anymore. I would say

21 no.

22 Q. Would there been any way, locking at an

23 invoice in a period of time when there was calcium

24 silicate on the market place that became asbestos

25 and calcium silicate did not contain asbestos, just

215

1 looking at specs or some other sales documents, just

2 said calcium silicate, would there be any way to

3 tell whether it contained asbestos?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection.

5 MR. CIFALDI: Objection. Other than

6 the time period you are talking about which maybe an

7 indicator?

8 MR. FENTON: I’m talking about the

9 time period specifically where it was available both

10 an asbestos form and a non asbestos form.

11 MR. PLACITELLA: I’ll object to the

12 form.

13 A. I don’t recall if being available in bulk,

14 both forms.

15 Q. First it was asbestos and then –

16 A. It was not asbestos.

17 Q. That’s your understanding?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. I’m not sure if I asked you

20 this question before I went off on that detour. Did

21 Keasbey in fact follow the specifications on

22 commercial jobs?

23 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going object. That

24 covers a large time period. It may not always be the

25 same, but you are able to inquire.

216

1 A. Always? No. Generally, yes.

2 Q. In instances in which there was no change

3 order to the specifications, would Keasbey follow

4 the specifications?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So the instance you were identifying

7 earlier is when there was some discussion back and

8 forth where there was a change to the original

9 specifications you would follow what the amended

10 specification was?

11 MR. CIFALDI: As to type versus specifics?

12 Just so the question is clear because we covered both.

13 You mean as to type of product generically?

14 MR. FENTON: As to the type of material to

15 be used, correct.

16 Q. That’s how you understood the question?

17 A. As to the type of material being used, we

18 would follow the specifications.

19 Q. So what was the instance then, just so I

20 understand completely, where there might be a change

21 and Keasbey couldn’t follow the specifications?

22 MR. CIFALDI: Didn’t we give an example of

23 that already?

24 MR. FENTON: I’m not sure.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: I think he did it

217

1 pretty extensively.

2 A. I’m trying to think.

3 MR. CIFALDI: I think we went over this

4 once.

5 A. We might run into a situation, this is for

6 instance now, where you have a what they call a dual

7 temperature job where you have piping that is used

8 for going into fan units in buildings, commercial

9 buildings where they are using hot water during the

10 wintertime and chilled water during the summer.

11 These runouts were very difficult to do

12 because they are made out of copper tube and they

13 were bent. They just run them the best however they

14 could. Specifications might call for fiberglass

15 pipe covering with a vapor barrier jacket on it,

16 which is very good for straight runs of pipe, but it

17 doesn’t go too well on the fan coil unit.

18 We would specify they use or suggest that

19 we put Armorflex type insulation on those lines

20 instead because it was good for both temperatures.

21 It would bend around the pipes much more easy. So

22 in instances like that we would ask for a change in

23 specifications.

24 Q. In instances like that who had the final

25 say as to what would be used?

218

1 A. We would make it to the owner or the

2 engineer or the mechanical contractor and they would

3 submit it up the line and then it would eventually

4 come back opted or reused or — I’m sorry, refused.

5 Q. The point I’m getting at is there was

6 somebody other than Keasbey who made that decision

7 in those instances?

8 A. In an instance like that, yes.

9 Q. We have been going for an hour and a half.

10 Why don’t we take a couple of minutes.

11 (Recess taken)

13 CONTINUED CROSS BY MR. FENTON:

15 Q. Mr. Scherer, did Keasbey have any

16 architects on its staff?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did Keasbey have any scientists on its

19 staff?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did Keasbey have a medical department?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did Keasbey have any engineers on its

24 staff?

25 MR. CIFALDI: People who had an

219

1 engineering degree or people working as an engineer

2 at Keasbey?

3 A. With an engineering degree?

4 Q. No. I mean –

5 A. We called — No. Estimators sometimes

6 they were referred to as an engineer, but they were

7 not engineers.

8 Q. Thank you. Sometimes Keasbey would be

9 working directly for the premises owner. Is that

10 right?

11 A. That’s correct.

12 Q. And sometimes Keasbey would be working for

13 the general contractor. Is that right?

14 A. Not generally. Generally worked for the

15 mechanical contractor.

16 Q. I’m only talking about in New Jersey in

17 these questions.

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Did the premises owners ever have

20 engineers on site?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did the mechanical contractors ever have

23 engineers on site?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You had mentioned that Keasbey insulated

220

1 both hot pipes and equipment and cold or refrigerant

2 pipes as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the specifications for the heat

5 processes generally require the use of

6 asbestos-containing materials in the time period

7 when such materials were available in the market

8 place?

9 A. Not always.

10 Q. Can you — are you able to quantify

11 approximately how often they would?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Under what circumstances might they not?

14 A. If they were specifying fiberglass pipe

15 covering, those insulation materials generally did

16 not have asbestos in them. However, the fittings

17 associated with the piping would still have cement

18 which contained asbestos used on them and generally

19 if there was any equipment involved, even if it had

20 fiberglass on it, the heads of that equipment would

21 have to be leveled off with cement which would

22 contain asbestos.

23 Q. And do you know why the specifications

24 specified the use of asbestos when they did?

25 A. Didn’t necessarily specify asbestos. It

221

1 would say fittings to be insulated with cement.

2 That was what was used to insulate the fittings.

3 Q. I’m talking about material like block,

4 pipe covering and the like.

5 MR. CIFALDI: What is the question?

6 A. Ask the question again.

7 Q. In instances when specifications called

8 for the use of asbestos-containing block or pipe

9 covering, do you know why they did that?

10 A. No. Generally that’s what we used.

11 Q. And how about when you were doing cold

12 processes or refrigerant, what did the

13 specifications call for? What type of material?

14 A. That would depend on the temperature.

15 Cold water generally took, when they had fiberglass,

16 fiberglass pipe covering with a vapor barrier

17 jacket, where before they had fiberglass they used a

18 product called Woolfelt and then if it was cold

19 they had cork insulation and foam glass insulation

20 and later on we had various types of styrofoams and

21 urethanes and the rubber type insulation, Armorflex.

22 Q. Based on your years of estimating for the

23 Robert A. Keasbey Company, and the years in which

24 you were also the plant manager in New Jersey for

25 Keasbey, were you aware of the amount of profit that

222

1 Keasbey would make on a particular job?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did Keasbey make the same amount of

4 profit on a job whether it used asbestos-containing

5 insulation or insulation that did not contain

6 asbestos?

7 A. That didn’t have any determining factor on

8 it at all.

9 Q. So it was the same?

10 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection. I don’t

11 know how he can answer.

12 A. It didn’t determine what the profit would

13 be. The determination would be the price of the job

14 and also how much labor it took. Sometimes we made

15 profit, sometimes we had losses.

16 Q. That was based on the nature of the work?

17 A. Nature of the work, the conditions we were

18 doing it under, what type of people you happened to

19 get out of the hiring hall that week.

20 Q. But –

21 A. There would be a lot of factors.

22 Q. But asbestos or non asbestos, that was not

23 a factor?

24 A. Not a factor in profit?

25 Q. In profit.

223

1 A. In profit figured, no, it wasn’t a factor.

2 Q. Could you just describe briefly for us the

3 way in which Keasbey would get the insulators it

4 needed to do a particular job?

5 A. Generally we had a crew of men who worked

6 for us at all time and that could vary. I would say

7 an average of probably 12 men. I’ve seen it as go

8 down as low as 2 and as high as 250, but we had a

9 base core of 10 to 12 men and when we would need

10 more we would pick up the phone and call the hiring

11 hall and tell them to send some men to a particular

12 job.

13 Q. So I understand, when you say there were

14 10 or 12 men who were basically full time, are you

15 referring to in New Jersey?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What union did Keasbey work with in New

18 Jersey?

19 A. Mostly Local 32. Insulation — I forgot

20 the official name?

21 MR. CIFALDI: Heat and Frost –

22 A. Heat and Frost Insulators and Asbestos

23 Workers.

24 Q. Did you regularly have contact with the

25 union insulators, the extras, not the 10 or 12 core

224

1 men but the others Keasbey would hire from to time

2 to time?

3 MR. CIFALDI: Did he personally?

4 Q. Yes. Did you personally?

5 A. What do you mean by regularly?

6 Q. During the course of performing your job

7 responsibilities was it necessary for you to

8 interact with those men from time to time?

9 A. I would see them on job sites, yes, from

10 time to time.

11 Q. Can you describe for us the sort of a

12 union that Local 32 was?

13 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

14 form. Is that like an atmosphere question?

15 MR. FENTON: More of an ambiance

16 question.

17 MR. CIFALDI: Do you understand the

18 question?

19 A. Yes. I’m trying to think how I would

20 describe it.

21 It is building trades. There were

22 certain — in New Jersey certain unions that

23 belonged to the building trades and you had to be a

24 building trades union worker to work on a building

25 in New Jersey where other building trades were

225

1 working.

2 There was about 350 to 400 men that belong

3 to it. As far as the types of men, they were from

4 not so good to excellent workmen. They had probably

5 one of the toughest business agents in the industry

6 who went on to become the president of the union. I

7 don’t know what else to tell you about it.

8 Q. Were you familiar with the collective

9 bargaining agreement between the union and the

10 insulation companies such as Keasbey?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What, if anything, did the union contract

13 provide with respect to masks?

14 MR. CIFALDI: What time are we speaking,

15 if ever?

16 Q. Throughout the entire time you were with

17 the Keasbey Company.

18 A. I don’t recall them ever having a

19 requirement for it. I know that in later years the

20 men requested them. We had them, 3M masks that we

21 would supply, but I don’t know when that started. I

22 don’t ever recall that being in the contract.

23 Q. Did you actually review the collective

24 bargaining agreements during the course of your work

25 at Keasbey?

226

1 A. Yes. I sat on the bargaining committees

2 for many years.

3 Q. Did you ever see the collective bargaining

4 agreements with Local 12 in New York?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did Keasbey supply masks to its men at job

7 sites and –

8 A. If requested, we did.

9 Q. Were you involved at all in obtaining or

10 providing the masks when requested?

11 A. Not directly, no.

12 Q. Did there come a time when the Local 32

13 collective bargaining agreement did require masks

14 during the period of time you were at Keasbey?

15 A. Not that I recall.

16 Q. When you went to job sites from time to

17 time did you see Keasbey workers wearing masks?

18 A. Occasionally, yes.

19 Q. Do you have a specific recollection of any

20 of the job sites which men were wearing masks?

21 A. No.

22 Q. If I were to go through a list of job

23 sites and ask you that question, would your answer

24 be the same?

25 A. Yes, it would.

227

1 Q. What, if anything, did the collective

2 bargaining agreement with 32 provide with respect to

3 the size of bags of cement?

4 A. I believe they were to be no greater than

5 50 pounds.

6 Q. Do you recall was that a requirement in

7 the collective bargaining fling agreement when you

8 first arrived at the company?

9 A. When I first arrived, I don’t recall.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately when you first

11 or when you know with certainty it did contain that?

12 A. Well, no. I read the collective

13 bargaining fling agreement and it is in there, but

14 when I first read it, I can’t recall.

15 Q. Did Keasbey comply with the requirements

16 of the union contracts?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware of any grievances brought by

19 the union against Keasbey?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall any of the specifics of any

22 of those?

23 A. No. They were generally not related. No.

24 They were not related to work. No, I really don’t.

25 Q. What was Keasbey’s reputation on the rank

228

1 and file union members?

2 MR. CIFALDI: Objection. Calls for

3 conjecture.

4 Q. Do you know?

5 A. As far as I know it was good.

6 Q. Did you ever hear of the expression

7 Keasbey is easy, Mack breaks your back?

8 A. Who breaks your back?

9 Q. Mack.

10 A. I don’t know who Mack was. No, I never

11 did.

12 Q. You testified earlier about products

13 called Rex and RAKCO?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know whether there came a time when

16 Keasbey stopped repackaging Rex and RAKCO?

17 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection.

18 Repackaging?

19 Q. Making Rex and RAKCO?

20 A. Remixed it. There came a time when we

21 stopped.

22 Q. Do you know when there was?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did Keasbey use other kinds of cement as

25 well as Rex and RAKCO?

229

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you name some of the cements Keasbey

3 used?

4 A. We used one called 4X, 7M, Eagle-Picher

5 and MW-1 and MW-50. That’s all I can think of

6 offhand.

7 Q. Did Keasbey use any Johns-Manville

8 cements?

9 A. Do you know what the brand name was?

10 Q. I’ll look it up and ask you later.

11 A. I don’t recall any Johns-Manville

12 cements.

13 Q. 352, 353?

14 A. No.

15 A. There’s another one I think we used R and

16 I. Some of their refractory cements.

17 Q. Stiktite?

18 A. Pardon me?

19 Q. Stiktite.

20 A. Stiktite, yes. That’s probably one of

21 them. They also made one that came in a pail. It

22 was already pre-mixed.

23 Q. Do you recall seeing any warnings of any

24 types of the products that Keasbey would purchase

25 for use?

230

1 A. No.

2 Q. When did you first become aware there was

3 any potential health hazards associated with

4 exposure to asbestos?

5 MR. PLACITELLA: When you say you, you

6 mean him personally?

7 MR. FENTON: Him personally, yes.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay.

9 A. Right. Sometime in the late ’60s or early

10 ’70s. Somewhere in there.

11 Q. What did you learn at that time?

12 A. We learned that there was a problem with

13 it. That was through the union, Dr. Selikoff.

14 Q. Who is Dr. Selikoff?

15 A. He was a physician. I forget which

16 hospital in New York, but he had done a multi year

17 study on asbestos among the members of Local 32.

18 Q. Were you aware of that study while it was

19 ongoing?

20 A. No, I was not.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the Asbestos Workers

22 Magazine?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is that?

25 A. It was a publication, I think it was

231

1 quarterly and it was a union publication. We used

2 to use it to get the labor rates from all the local

3 unions in the area in case we had to hire somebody

4 from another local. That was the extent of my use

5 of it.

6 Q. Keasbey received the magazine at the New

7 Jersey offices?

8 A. Yes. When they finished reading it in New

9 York they sent it over to us.

10 Q. Have you ever heard of the expression

11 Green Sheets?

12 A. No. Wait a minute. Green sheets.

13 Green sheets. As it relates to Keasbey business?

14 Q. Green sheets, meaning bulletins concerning

15 health risks associated –

16 A. No.

17 Q. To exposure to asbestos?

18 A. No. We used to have what we called a

19 green sheet which was the first copy of a contract

20 order.

21 Q. From time to time when you were at job

22 sites did you have the opportunity to observe

23 insulators working for other insulating companies

24 doing their job?

25 A. Yes.

232

1 Q. Did you have occasion to see them install

2 block?

3 A. Not that I recall particularly.

4 Q. Did you have the opportunity to see them

5 install pipe covering?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you have the opportunity to see them

8 mixing cement?

9 A. Not that I recall.

10 Q. How about installing cement, applying

11 cement?

12 A. Not that I recall.

13 Q. Was there something difficult about the

14 way these other insulation companies installed pipe

15 covering and the way that the Robert A. Keasbey

16 Company installed pipe covering?

17 A. Not to my knowledge.

18 Q. Are you aware of anything that Keasbey did

19 differently in performing insulation services than

20 its competitors did it or were doing in New Jersey?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I want to talk now a bit about the Chevron

23 facility at Perth Amboy. Could you describe that

24 are familiar in general and by that I’m talking

25 about the size in terms of acreage, how many

233

1 buildings it had, how many men, Chevron employees

2 that would be working there at any given time, how

3 many different plants or subdivisions? In other

4 words, to describe for us the physical layout of the

5 Chevron plant as you recall it.

6 MR. CIFALDI: At what time period are

7 you speaking?

8 Q. During the period of time when you were

9 there.

10 MR. PLACITELLA: I’ll object to the

11 form. You can answer it. I don’t know which

12 question you want him to answer, but go ahead.

13 MR. RASNEK: You are asking when he

14 specifically was there?

15 Q. Let me ask the predicate questions and ask

16 you during what period of time were you personally

17 at the Chevron facility in Perth Amboy?

18 A. Through the ’50s, early ’60s we were there

19 almost all the time. Later than that not so often,

20 but we were still working there.

21 Q. I want to make sure that we are

22 communicating clearly here. When I’m asking this

23 question I’m not asking about the Robert A. Keasbey

24 Company in general, I’m asking for you personally

25 having been on site. Is your answer the same, ’50s,

234

1 and ’60s?

2 A. The size of the plant.

3 Q. You were there from time to time

4 throughout when you started in 1954 through the

5 remainder of the ’50s and ’60s?

6 MR. RASNEK: Objection to the form.

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PLACITELLA: I don’t think he

9 limited it to the ’60s, just so the record is clear.

10 You cut your question off, I don’t think that’s what

11 he said.

12 MR. FENTON; Okay.

13 Q. When was the first time you recall being

14 at Chevron?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: You, personally?

16 Q. You, personally.

17 A. Sometime in the ’50s, early ’50s.

18 Q. Obviously no earlier than ’54. That’s

19 when you started with the company, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, if you recall my initial question,

22 can you describe the physical plant as it existed

23 when you were there sometime in or around 1954?

24 A. In general terms, it was a large plant.

25 Huge plant. State street ran right through the

235

1 middle of it. On the bay side of State Street was

2 mostly storage tanks and what they call the asphalt

3 plant.

4 On the other side of State Street there

5 was a road that went right through the plant over to

6 Convery Boulevard. On the one part was a lot of

7 tankage and the other one was where they had the

8 crackers and the boiler plant and a lot of that type

9 of facility, manufacturing facility.

10 Q. Are you able in terms of acreage or square

11 footage or any measure, estimate, and nobody here

12 wants you to guess, the approximate size of the

13 Chevron facility?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You mentioned the asphalt plant? Let’s

16 just talk about that in terms of dimensions. How

17 often big was that?

18 A. That’s difficult for me to say.

19 MR. CIFALDI: If you can’t estimate it,

20 don’t worry about it.

21 A. You drove around. If you wanted to get

22 any place you will to take a car.

23 Q. Even within the asphalt plant?

24 A. Yes. It ran from State Street all the way

25 down to the cove.

236

1 Q. You talked about a part of the plant where

2 there was a lot of tanks?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Do you have a particular way of referring

5 to that?

6 A. That was part of that plant, the asphalt

7 plant.

8 Q. That was part of the asphalt plant as

9 well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then you talked about the boiler plant.

12 Can you estimate for us the approximate size of the

13 boiler plant?

14 A. Maybe a couple hundred feet by 100 feet.

15 Q. The asphalt plant, were there buildings as

16 part of the asphalt plant?

17 A. Generally, no. What they call control

18 houses.

19 Q. Most of the equipment and the piping was

20 outside?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you estimate for us how many Chevron

23 employees worked at the asphalt plant?

24 MR. RASNEK: Objection to the form. Are

25 we talking about all about the same time?

237

1 MR. FENTON: Yes. Every question is after

2 1954.

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. How about the boiler plant?

5 A. No idea.

6 Q. Are you able to say whether we are talking

7 about more or less than ten men in the asphalt

8 plant?

9 A. I really don’t know.

10 Q. If I asked you about the boiler plant, are

11 you able to say whether there were more or less than

12 ten men?

13 A. I don’t know.

14 Q. How about the entire facility in 1954?

15 A. I don’t know.

16 Q. How about the crackers you described when

17 Mr. Placitella was asking questions, you described

18 in general their size. I want to talk about the

19 part of the plant where they were found.

20 Can you tell us the approximate size of

21 the part of the plant where the crackers were?

22 A. No, not really.

23 Q. Do you have an understanding of what was

24 happening in that part of the plant, what they were

25 manufacturing by the crackers?

238

1 A. Basic understanding, yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us what that is?

3 Q. Brought the crude oil in, they heated it

4 and at different levels in the cracker what they

5 call the catalytic cracker. It was something, some

6 kind of a bead they but in. I believe it was

7 platinum or had to do with platinum and at different

8 levels in the cracker they had what they call trays

9 and during this heating process at the different

10 levels they would take off different products which

11 might be kerosine or gasoline or different types of

12 oils. Exactly what they were, I don’t know.

13 Q. Are the crackers in the building or

14 outside?

15 A. It was an outside facility.

16 Q. Were there any buildings in that part of

17 the plant?

18 A. There would be control houses, yes.

19 Q. When you talk about control house in the

20 asphalt plant and the crackers, could you describe

21 what the approximate size of a control house is?

22 A. Generally a small building, maybe 40 feet

23 wide, 60 feet long, one story.

24 Q. Do you recall Keasbey doing any work in

25 the control houses at the asphalt plant in 1954?

239

1 A. In them, no, I cannot.

2 Q. How about in the boiler plant control

3 houses?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would that be true throughout the time

6 that you personally were at the Chevron plant?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To the best of your knowledge Keasbey

9 didn’t do any work in the control houses?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How many crackers were there in 1954?

12 A. Only one I can remember.

13 Q. Did there come a time when additional

14 crackers were added to that part of the plant?

15 A. I don’t know.

16 Q. At the boiler plant, was that inside a

17 building, the boiler plant? Most of the piping was

18 that outside.

19 A. Whether the boilers were internal or not,

20 I don’t recall.

21 Q. Is it fair to say that the work that

22 Keasbey was doing in 1954 was primarily outside?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would that be true during the entire time

25 you personally were at Chevron in Perth Amboy?

240

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall any specific inside work

3 that Keasbey was doing at any time that you were at

4 the Chevron facility in Perth Amboy?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It was all outside that you witnessed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you aware of any inside work?

9 A. No. Also off of State Street, I forgot to

10 tell you before there were a couple of large office

11 buildings also.

12 Q. Did Keasbey do any work in the office

13 buildings?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did Keasbey do any work in the outside

16 area in proximity of the office buildings?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you estimate the approximate

19 percentage of the time that you were actually

20 present on site at Chevron while Keasbey was

21 working?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was it a relatively small percentage of

24 the time?

25 A. Yes.

241

1 Q. In the ’50s, starting in 1954 and take it

2 let’s say through December 31, 1959, can you

3 estimate for us, in other words, throughout the

4 ’50s, can you estimate for us approximately how

5 often you would be on site at the Chevron facility

6 in Perth Amboy?

7 A. No.

8 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions in

9 the decade of the ’60s would your answers be the

10 same?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did there come a time when to your

13 recollection the physical plant at the Chevron

14 facility in Perth Amboy changed in some significant

15 way?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. That was in the time period I gave you

19 before when Woolsulate, ACandS and Porter Hayden,

20 they did a huge expansion of the plant. I believe

21 that was sometime in the ’70s. Just exactly when, I

22 don’t recall.

23 Q. You said ’72, ’73 sometime approximately

24 when Keasbey was leaving Newark?

25 A. Okay.

242

1 Q. Let’s then deal with the decade of the

2 1960s then. The physical plant you described from

3 1954 to your knowledge was essentially the same?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you able to, in the ’60s approximate,

6 the number of Chevron employees that were working at

7 the entire facility?

8 A. No.

9 Q. At the asphalt plant?

10 A. No.

11 Q. At the boiler plant?

12 A. No.

13 Q. At the crackers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. If I were to ask the same question at the

16 asphalt plant, more or less than ten, your answer

17 would be the same?

18 A. I got no idea how many men were working

19 for Chevron.

20 Q. At any time?

21 A. At any time.

22 Q. In the decade of the ’60s is it accurate

23 that again you were actually on site during a small

24 percentage of the time Keasbey was doing work?

25 A. Yes.

243

1 Q. From time to time when you were there and

2 Keasbey was doing work were there any Chevron

3 employees in the proximity of Keasbey?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct that you don’t know the

6 names of any of those individuals?

7 A. Other than an engineer I might have been

8 accompanying to the site, no I don’t.

9 Q. Are you able to describe by the nature of

10 the work that the Chevron employees were doing any

11 particular Chevron employee?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know whether there were any Chevron

14 crane operators within 50 feet of Keasbey at any

15 time it was doing work while you were present at the

16 Chevron facility at Perth Amboy?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How about 100 feet?

19 A. No. I don’t recall seeing any crane

20 operators. They may very well have been there.

21 Q. But you don’t recall.

22
(Recess taken)
23

24 Q. I just want to ask you now moving to the

25 period of time from January 1, of 1970 until Keasbey

244

1 left its facility in Newark, from time to time did

2 you have occasion to be present at the Chevron

3 facility in Perth Amboy?

4 A. I can’t recall specifically.

5 Q. How about after Keasbey relocated, do you

6 recall whether you were ever at the Chevron

7 facility?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When is the first time you recall being at

10 the Chevron facility after Keasbey moved away from

11 Newark?

12 A. During the time of that huge construction

13 job we had a job there also, a smaller job. I don’t

14 recall exactly where it was. It was up near the

15 railroad tracks.

16 Q. Do you recall whether or not Keasbey used

17 any asbestos-containing materials at that job?

18 A. Not at that time.

19 Q. I’m sorry.

20 A. Not at that time.

21 Q. I want to move to a different site. The

22 Sandoz facility, pharmaceutical plant in Hanover, New

23 Jersey. Okay?

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. I want to focus on the period of time when

245

1 you first got to Keasbey up until December 31, 1959.

2 Do you recall you personally being present at the

3 Sandoz plant during that time period?

4 A. I don’t recall the specific dates, but I

5 had on and off been in that plant with my boss and

6 the salesman helping him measure some work in there.

7 Q. Can you estimate for us approximately how

8 many times you were in the plant during that time

9 period?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I want to focus now on the time period

12 from January 1, 1960 through December 31, 1964.

13 Were you in the plant during that time period to

14 your recollection?

15 A. As I recall that’s about the time we were

16 doing a large building there for Frank A. McBride

17 Corporation.

18 Q. Can you describe for us at that period of

19 time when you recalled doing this job for Frank

20 McBride, can you describe the physical layout of the

21 Sandoz facility?

22 A. It was a — the layout of the old

23 facility? Not really. It was a fair size facility

24 right off of Route 10.

25 Q. I’m sorry?

246

1 A. It was a fairly large size facility off of

2 Route 10, but it wasn’t anything like Merck or

3 Hoffmann-LaRoche was.

4 Q. You were doing piping in the hallway in

5 connection with that building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was there anything else that Keasbey did

8 in connection with that building?

9 A. We did some outside piping, we did the

10 duct work. I don’t recall if that building had a

11 boiler plant in it or not or if it got the utilities

12 from a central source, but I don’t recall there

13 being a boiler plant in there.

14 Q. Now, do you recall what materials Keasbey

15 was using to do the outside piping work?

16 A. I recall it was fiberglass.

17 Q. What type of duct work was it that Keasbey

18 was doing?

19 A. Heating, ventilating and air conditioning.

20 Q. Do you recall what materials Keasbey was

21 using to insulate the duct work?

22 A. Fiberglass.

23 Q. And the pipes in the hallway, that was

24 fiberglass as well?

25 A. Yes.

247

1 Q. Now, you mentioned that you recall

2 asbestos cement on the fittings in the hallway?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall whether any asbestos

5 materials were used on the outside piping?

6 A. It would be the same on the fittings.

7 Q. How about the duct work?

8 A. Duct work, no, that would not.

9 Q. Now, as you sit here do you have a

10 specific recollection — How frequently were you

11 there while Keasbey was doing the piping in the

12 hallway at this building for Frank McBride?

13 A. I have been to that job a number of times.

14 How frequently, I don’t recall.

15 Q. For what period of time would you remain

16 on-site during the occasions you went?

17 A. Generally no more than an hour or so.

18 Q. Was the entirety of your time spent at the

19 actual location where Keasbey was doing the work or

20 were you sometimes elsewhere? I’m excluding

21 obviously the time it takes to get on-site and walk

22 to where the Keasbey job is.

23 A. No. The reason I would go on the job

24 would be to check the progress of the work, see how

25 much was done and go around the rest of the building

248

1 and see what was going to be coming next or what

2 would be required next to be done.

3 I would not necessarily be in the location

4 where the work was actually being performed at any

5 particular time, although I might walk past it once

6 or twice or three times.

7 Q. With respect to this piping in the hallway

8 at this building that Keasbey was insulating for

9 Frank McBride, as you sit here today do you have a

10 specific recollection of a carpenter being in the

11 vicinity of a Keasbey insulator while he was mixing

12 asbestos cement or applying asbestos cement to a

13 fitting on the piping in the hallway.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the form.

15 A. No, I don’t.

16 Q. With respect to the outside piping, do you

17 have a specific recollection of a carpenter being in

18 the vicinity of a Keasbey insulator at the time that

19 he was mixing asbestos cement?

20 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

21 form. We are limiting this obviously to the time he

22 was there being in that exact at that exact second?

23 MR. FENTON: That’s all he can

24 testify to. I agree with you absolutely, counsel.

25 A. No, I don’t?

249

1 (Discussion off the record)

3 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RASNEK:

5 Q. Good morning, again, Mr. Scherer, I’m Joe

6 Rasnek. I represent Chevron in the Horvath case.

7 I have a few general questions four you.

8 A. Sure.

9 Q. Mr. Scherer, when was the last time you

10 have been deposed in connection with asbestos

11 litigation, if you remember?

12 MR. PLACITELLA: Last week.

13 Q. Other than last week.

14 A. Probably.

15 Q. Somewhere between five and ten years ago.

16 Quite a while.

17 Q. You told us you left Robert A. Keasbey in

18 1985. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And where did you become employed after

21 that?

22 A. After that very, short time at a company

23 called — I forget. It was in Pitman, New Jersey.

24 It was Power Process Corporation. Then I went to

25 work for a while as a real estate agent. I worked

250

1 for Insulation Distributors Corporation as a

2 consultant and a salesman.

3 I worked for Woolsulate Corporation for a

4 year, for Porter Hayden for a year. For K and M

5 Corporation and Absolute Ace Corporation. These

6 were all insulation contractors. I went back and

7 took over as the mechanical insulation product

8 manager for Insulation Distributing Corporation.

9 I worked there for, I guess, for other five years

10 and I left there and went with SPI, Specialty

11 Products Insulation up until the time I retired

12 officially when my eyes went bad. I can’t read the

13 computer any more.

14 Q. What year was that, sir?

15 A. About four years ago.

16 Q. Since leaving Robert A. Keasbey in 1985

17 have you ever done any consulting work for that

18 company?

19 A. For Keasbey? No. The only thing I did

20 for them I was involved in, I guess, as a consultant

21 in a lawsuit they had against M.W. Kellogg.

22 Q. Were you a witness in that lawsuit?

23 A. It never came to trial.

24 Q. Were you deposed in connection with that?

25 A. No. Wait. Yes, I was.

251

1 Q. Where was that case pending, sir?

2 A. Pardon me?

3 Q. Where was that case pending? Was it in

4 New Jersey?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what county?

7 A. I was deposed in Middlesex County.

8 Q. Other than that particular matter did you

9 ever have any other consulting work for Robert A.

10 Keasbey after leaving in 1985?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When was the last time you occasion to

13 look at Robert A. Keasbey documents?

14 MR. CIFALDI: Other than –

15 Q. Other than in connection with this

16 deposition.

17 A. I had the brochure that we put in evidence

18 last week. No, I haven’t seen any documents.

19 Q. Do you recall when the last time was you

20 looked at any Keasbey documents before anything in

21 connections with this deposition?

22 A. I have one document myself. That is all.

23 It is an estimate sheet from the Public Service job

24 in Jersey City.

25 Q. That’s the only document you have?

252

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Other than P-1, which you gave to

3 Mr. Placitella?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. You told us you met with Mr. Placitella

6 prior to last week’s deposition. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many times did you meet with him?

9 A. Once.

10 Q. When was that, sir?

11 A. I’m sorry. Twice. Once not too long ago

12 and I think once last summer.

13 Q. Let’s talk about the meeting last summer.

14 How long was that?

15 A. It was very short. Maybe less than an

16 hour.

17 Q. Where did you meet with him?

18 A. In his office.

19 Q. Did you review any documents?

20 A. No. I shouldn’t say no. Just that. asked

21 me some questions about that contract book.

22 Q. The contract book that was marked today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did Mr. Placitella present that book to

25 you or did you have it from some source?

253

1 A. No, he had it.

2 Q. You met with him a second time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When was that, sir?

5 A. Before. Just before the last session.

6 Q. Before this deposition?

7 A. Before last week’s deposition.

8 Q. How long did that meeting last?

9 A. Probably less than an hour.

10 Q. Did you review any documents during the

11 course of that meeting?

12 A. No, just — no. No Keasbey documents.

13 Q. When was the last time, sir, you looked at

14 a Robert A. Keasbey engineer sheet?

15 A. Ledger sheet?

16 Q. Other than in connection with this

17 documents we have marked as P-2.

18 A. I haven’t.

19 Q. You haven’t at any time since 1985?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No, you have not?

22 A. No, I have not.

23 Q. Would Robert A. Keasbey ledger sheets

24 reflect the work done at particular sites to your

25 knowledge?

254

1 A. Yes. Are you talk about the contract book

2 now?

3 Q. The ledger sheets as to a particular site

4 owner or customer.

5 MR. CIFALDI: Do you know what he is

6 talking about?

7 A. You are talking about these allege

8 engineers.

9 Q. You tell me. Is that different from the

10 ledger sheets that Robert A. Keasbey maintained?

11 A. These are the large engineer sheets.

12 Q. There are –

13 A. We called it a contract book. In that

14 contract book when we got a new contract they

15 assigned it a number, they put the site, the job,

16 whoever the job was and the contractor who we maybe

17 working for, if it were someone other than the owner

18 of the building. That would reflected. Every job

19 that we did would be reflected in those sheets.

20 Q. Just so we understand each other in

21 connection with Robert A. Keasbey work, if someone

22 referred to a ledger sheet it would be a ledger

23 sheet contained in a book like P-2.

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. PLACITELLA: I object. How would

255

1 he know what somebody refers to as a ledger sheet?

2 Q. Rephrase. In connection with your

3 employment at Keasbey, did you ever hear of ledger

4 sheets that might be different from that maintained

5 in the book we have marked as P-2 in this

6 deposition?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would the ledger sheets –

9 A. I’m sure there were ledger sheets in

10 accounting I know nothing about.

11 Q. But in terms of ledger sheets reflecting

12 what work was done at a particular site, you would

13 go to that book marked as P-2?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To your knowledge the engineer sheets

16 accurately reflected work done at particular sites

17 or for particular customers. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. That’s all I have.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: I need five minutes.

21
(Recess taken)
22

23 CONTINUED CROSS BY MR. FENTON:

25 Q. I want to go back to the Sandoz site just

256

1 for a moment and ask you one or two more questions.

2 Do you know approximately how long this hallway

3 piping job that the Robert A. Keasbey Company did

4 lasted, how long it took to do that job?

5 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

6 form. You keep limiting it like it is a hallway.

7 His testimony on direct was multiple. He did the

8 hallways.

9 Q. I didn’t mean to limit it that way. I

10 meant to encompass the entirety of the hallways.

11 A. The entire job, I can’t remember exactly,

12 but probably must have ran at least a year. The

13 research building, they go up very slowly.

14 I do remember that we did a lot of work on

15 duct work in the halls and then went off the job for

16 a long time. Of course, we come back. Work was all

17 recollected and we had to do it over again.

18 Q. I didn’t mean to include duct work or the

19 outside piping, but just the piping in the hallways.

20 All three were going on simultaneously?

21 A. We did the duct work first and came back

22 and did the piping later and just the nature of that

23 type of building.

24 Q. So were there periods when Keasbey was not

25 doing any work at all on the piping in the hallways?

257

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you estimate approximately what period

3 of time during that year Keasbey was not doing any

4 work on the piping in the hallways?

5 A. No. When you say piping in the hallways,

6 I’m considering pipe runs and they would be

7 hallways, they could be in chases down in the

8 basement, not in hallways, just running around.

9 Q. When I asked my question earlier

10 concerning carpenters being in the vicinity of

11 Robert A. Keasbey doing work on piping, I wanted to

12 include the entirety of the piping job. Is that how

13 you understood the question?

14 A. I understood it to be hallways.

15 Q. If I were to ask you the same question

16 with respect to piping inside the building at Sandoz

17 that Keasbey did, would you give the same answer?

18 A. I believe my answer was no, that I didn’t

19 recall any carpenter being in the vicinity of our

20 work.

21 Q. During your deposition you talked about

22 proposals. Could you describe for us what a

23 proposal is?

24 A. Sure. The letter and it would start off,

25 we are pleased to submit the following proposal to

258

1 furnish all necessary labor and materials to

2 insulate whatever we were going to insulate. Then

3 the name of the job and then for the price of, and

4 put a price in it and sign it.

5 Q. Is it fair to say sometimes Keasbey got

6 the job and sometimes it didn’t?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it possible, and again this is not with

9 respect to someone who actually has knowledge of the

10 actual proposal and the actual job site, but someone

11 else is looking at a proposal, that is all they

12 have. Is it possible just from looking at the

13 proposal to determine if Keasbey got the job or did

14 the work?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: You mean –

16 Q. Look at it and say –

17 MR. PLACITELLA: He would know whether he

18 got the job?

19 Q. Someone who was not involved in doing the

20 proposal or doing the job, but someone else if they

21 just had a proposal, that was the only thing with

22 respect to the job could they tell whether or not

23 Keasbey got the work or did it?

24 A. No. I don’t believe so.

25 Q. Is it also correct, even if all you have

259

1 is a proposal, that even if someone establishes that

2 the work was done just from looking at the proposal

3 you can’t tell when the work was done?

4 MR. PLACITELLA: Just looking at the

5 proposal, nothing else?

6 MR. FENTON: Nothing else.

7 A. Unless there was a time line written into

8 the proposal.

9 Q. Was there a time line written into the

10 proposals from time to time?

11 A. Not on our end of it that I can recall.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Scherer, that’s all the

13 questions I have in the Horvath and DeMayo case.

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody have any

15 other questions?

17 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. WEITZ:

19 Q. Good afternoon, I’m Sarit Weitz from

20 Garrity, Graham. We represent State Insulation and

21 United Conveyor. Is it correct that you testified

22 earlier that you are familiar with a company called

23 State Insulation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it correct that you stated that

260

1 they were a supply house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall whether you ever ordered any

4 products from State Insulation?

5 A. What time period?

6 Q. During any of the time you worked for

7 Keasbey.

8 MR. CIFALDI: Are we just talking about

9 State now or their predecessor corporation that did

10 insulation?

11 Q. Just State Insulation.

12 A. For any time I worked for Keasbey?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall what those products were?

16 A. Not offhand.

17 Q. Do you recall whether you ever ordered PVC

18 elbows?

19 MR. CIFALDI: Ever or from State?

20 Q. Ever from State Insulation.

21 A. I would say we probably did, yes.

22 Q. Do you remember the time frame when you

23 would have ordered the PVC elbows?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Are you familiar with the name, Z E S T O N

261

1 brand?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever order any Zeston from State

4 Insulation?

5 A. Yes. I would say we did.

6 Q. Do you recall the time frame for that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall whether you ever ordered any

9 fiberglass from State Insulation?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Are you familiar with the CertainTeed

12 brand?

13 A. I believe that used to be Gaston Bacon.

14 I’m familiar with the brand, yes.

15 Q. Did you ever order any CertainTeed

16 products from State Insulation?

17 A. Not that I can recall.

18 Q. Do you associate State Insulation with any

19 particular job site?

20 A. No.

21 MS. WEITZ: Nothing further.

23 MR. PLACITELLA: Anybody else want to go

24 in any other case?

262

1 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DISIPIO:

3 Q. I’m Basil DiSipio. I represent 3M Company

4 in the Barile matter.

5 In responses to counsel for Keasbey’s

6 questions you mentioned that at some point I think

7 you used in the later years, you had 3M masks

8 available for those who requested them. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I understand from what you told us you

11 can’t pinpoint a time when they were first

12 available, but do you associate when they were first

13 available with either the Newark location or the

14 Rahway location?

15 A. I seem to remember them more at the Rahway

16 location.

17 A. That would have been sometime after ’72,

18 ’73.

19 Q. Am I correct that would have been after

20 Keasbey no longer was using or supplying

21 asbestos-containing products, correct?

22 A. That’s correct.

23 Q. So I take it then the masks for those who

24 asked for them were not being used to protect

25 against asbestos, correct?

263

1 MR. CIFALDI: Objection. He doesn’t

2 really know what they were doing with them, but I

3 guess he could answer, if he knows.

4 Q. Do you know, sir?

5 A. The only one I particularly remember that

6 used them he was more concerned about fumes from

7 urethane, mixing chemicals from urethane. Other

8 than that, they would be just for dust.

9 Q. That was your understanding, they were

10 used just for dust, as far as you knew?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I understand you cannot pinpoint any work

13 sites where they were used. I take it you also

14 therefore can’t pinpoint or name any particular

15 individuals who worked for Keasbey either through

16 the union hall or direct employers who may have used

17 them, correct?

18 A. The only one I can pinpoint was the fellow

19 that used them.

20 Q. For the urethane.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Mr. Scherer, the mask you believe

23 first were available after the move to Rahway, can

24 you describe that for me generally?

25 A. Only ones I can remember were the ones

264

1 that were more recent. It was a cup like affair

2 which had elastic bands, one or two. I don’t

3 remember, and it had a piece of flexible plastic for

4 the nose piece that you could shape it over your

5 nose.

6 Q. Do you remember the color of the one or

7 two bands?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember anything about the

10 packaging?

11 A. Came in a box. I think there were 15 in

12 the box, but I’m not sure.

13 Q. Was there any writing on the mask?

14 A. Not that I can recall.

15 Q. Do you recall the mask changing in any way

16 from the time you first saw it as an employee of

17 Keasbey up until the time you left?

18 A. Yes. I think the later ones were heavier,

19 more solid. The first ones were much more flexible.

20 Q. Did they change in size?

21 A. Not that I recall.

22 Q. How about color? Do you recall the color

23 changing at all?

24 A. No, I don’t.

25 Q. I take it from what you told us earlier

265

1 the masks were available for those who requested

2 them, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It was never a mandatory thing from the

5 Keasbey standpoint?

6 A. Not that I recall. Again, what time

7 period are we talking about?

8 Q. From the time you first saw them, I think

9 you said you associated that with after the move to

10 Rahway, up until the time you left. Was there ever

11 a point when they were mandatory?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. When they started doing asbestos removal

15 work, asbestos abatement work. They were not only

16 those, I think they the first ones that were

17 mandatory. Then they were mandated full respirators

18 with battery operated and white sides and everything

19 to go with it.

20 Q. Would that be for Keasbey employees?

21 A. Any employee that worked for the union.

22 Q. When you say battery operated, are you

23 talking about an air fed respirator?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you associate that period of time, was

266

1 it the ’70s, ’80s before you left?

2 A. No, after I left.

3 Q. After you left?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So this wouldn’t have been when you were

6 with Keasbey, correct?

7 A. Masks were mandatory when I was with

8 Keasbey. In fact, every employer had to attend

9 school which the union ran to go through an

10 abatement course, what was required to do an

11 abatement job. I had to go through it myself.

12 Q. When did you go through that? I didn’t

13 mean to interrupt.

14 A. This would have been before I left

15 Keasbey. So it had to be probably in the early ’80s

16 or so.

17 Q. The gentleman who you do recall wearing it

18 for the urethane, do you know his name?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. Jack Bullis.

22 Q. Thank you. That’s all the questions I

23 have.

267

1 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HIBBARD:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Scherer. My name is

4 Dale Hibbard and I represent A and M Industrial

5 Hardware. Just a few questions. First of all, are

6 you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Roy

7 Grau, G R A U.?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say you have no personal

10 knowledge of Mr. Grau’s alleged exposure to asbestos?

11 A. That’s correct.

12 Q. In your work for Keasbey did you ever have

13 any dealings with A and M Wholesale Hardware?

14 A. A and M?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Not that I recall.

17 Q. Let me give you was couple of other names,

18 also known as A and M Hardware, also known as A and

19 M Industrial Supply?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say you have no

22 personal knowledge of any connection A and M has

23 with any alleged exposure to Mr. Grau?

24 A. That’s true.

25 Q. Thank you.

268

1 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Good afternoon. I’m Gary Smith. I

5 represent Rapid American. I have a few questions to

6 follow up the time period in 1954 until 1964 when

7 Keasbey changed over from Carey products to

8 Owens-Corning products. Okay?

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Between that period did Keasbey ever order

11 asbestos-containing products from any other

12 manufacturers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are you all right?

15 A. Yes. Okay.

16 Q. Would those be pipe insulation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would they be block?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Would it be cement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And with regard to cement, do you remember

23 any of the names of the other manufacturers that

24 Keasbey ordered materials from?

25 MR. CIFALDI: Excluding their own?

269

1 MR. SMITH: Excluding their own.

2 A. M.W., Mineral Wool. Probably mineral

3 wool cement. There was a Carey product and

4 Eagle-Picher cements. I don’t know where we got

5 them from offhand. Also bought aircell, woolfelt,

6 which came from York Insulation.

7 Q. Do you recall a company called Ruberoid?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever order asbestos-containing

10 cement from that company?

11 MR. CIFALDI: In the time period we are

12 talking about?

13 Q. Again, between ’54 and ’53, ’64.

14 A. I don’t recall it, but I don’t recall

15 ordering it myself. We might have gotten it out of

16 our New York.

17 Q. And Johns-Manville, did you ever order?

18 A. Not that I recall.

19 Q. Do you know a company called Keene?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever order asbestos-containing

22 cement from that company?

23 A. Not that I can recall.

24 Q. And Baldwin Ehret Hill, did you ever hear

25 of that company?

270

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you ever order asbestos-containing –

3 A. I can remember some of their bags of

4 cements being around our warehouse. I don’t

5 remember ordering it.

6 Q. But it was a cement product that Keasbey

7 used in the field. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell me a percentage of how much

10 Carey cement was used in comparison to these other

11 manufacturers cements?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Would it be less than 50 percent, more

14 than 50 percent?

15 A. I have no idea.

16 Q. You said Keasbey ordered pipe insulation

17 from other manufacturers. Is that correct?

18 A. I said we ordered Aircell and wool felt

19 from York Insulation, but what type of pipe

20 insulation, not generally, no.

21 Q. Have you ever –

22 A. Are you talking about calcium silicate or

23 magnesia?

24 Q. Either or.

25 A. Have you ever heard of a company called

271

1 Pittsburgh-Corning?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever order pipe insulation from

4 that company?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And again between the period 1954 and

7 1963, 1964?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever order Johns-Manville pipe

10 insulation?

11 A. Not from Johns-Manville. I think we may

12 have bought some from Porter Hayden.

13 Q. Between 1953, 1963 and 1964?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell me in comparison how much

16 Carey pipe insulation was used in the field as

17 compared to these other manufacturers?

18 A. It was mostly Carey, but I don’t know

19 percentage wise.

20 Q. Would you say it would be 50 percent, more

21 than 50 percent, less, something else?

22 A. More than 50 percent.

23 Q. 50, 80 percent?

24 A. I’m sorry.

25 MR. CIFALDI: Just say you don’t know.

272

1 Q. You mentioned 85 percent magnesia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you buy that product from Carey?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall at some point in time that

6 Carey stopped manufacturing 85 percent Magnesia?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 Q. Do you know what period in time that was,

9 what year?

10 Q. Would it be in the ’50s?

11 A. It was when they replaced it with calcium

12 silicate. I don’t know. I don’t recall what year

13 it was.

14 Q. If I told you it was 1958 would that

15 refresh your recollection?

16 A. No.

17 Q. We have talked about the warehouse in

18 Newark. Can you tell me how Carey products were

19 stored in the Newark warehouse for Keasbey?

20 A. Yes. It came in boxes and they were

21 stored on pallets, wooden pallets.

22 Q. Would this be the first floor, second

23 floor?

24 A. Generally on the first floor.

25 Q. Did it take up the whole section of the

273

1 first floor?

2 A. Very large part of it.

3 Q. More than 50 percent?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Almost the whole floor?

6 A. Maybe 75 or even 80 percent of it.

7 Q. Do you recall when in 1963 or 1964 Keasbey

8 stopped using the product?

9 MR. CIFALDI: The Carey product?

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Yes.

12 MR. PLACITELLA: Stopped using it or

13 stopped buying it? I’ll ask him later.

14 A. It was probably ’64.

15 Q. Early in ’64 when they stopped buying the

16 product?

17 A. The last major job we did with it was Bell

18 Telephone Labs in Holmdel and we did that job in

19 1963. It was directly after that job that we broke

20 our relationship with Carey.

21 Q. At that time was there remaining Carey

22 materials in the Keasbey warehouse in Newark?

23 A. Yes, there would be.

24 Q. Can you estimate how much was in that

25 warehouse at that time?

274

1 A. No, I cannot.

2 Q. Then what happened to those materials?

3 A. They were used up until they were gone.

4 Q. Can you estimate what point in time

5 Keasbey finished those products?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Sometime in 1963?

8 A. I don’t know.

9 Q. I would like to talk about the Exxon site.

10 Specifically the Bayway site.

11 How often were you, yourself at the Exxon

12 Bayway site between ’54 and ’63 and ’64?

13 A. Infrequently.

14 Q. A couple times a year?

15 A. Yes. Maybe more.

16 Q. Could you estimate. You testified they

17 were doing work from the ’50s all the way to the

18 ’80s at the Bayway facility. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was there a concentration of work done in

21 the ’50s?

22 A. I don’t recall just how much, but we are

23 talking about the Bayway site now?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I don’t recall how much was done.

275

1 Q. Would you say there was more work done in

2 the ’50s as compared to the ’60s?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you say there was more work done in

5 the ’60s as compared to the ’70s?

6 A. No.

7 Q. About the same amount in the ’60s and

8 ’70s?

9 A. We didn’t do as much work in that plant.

10 Didn’t do an awful lot of work in that plant.

11 Q. Were you the only estimator on the Exxon

12 Bayway site?

13 A. There were other estimators for Keasbey

14 that worked on their site. I was the only estimator

15 on that site after 1963, I would say ’62. Before

16 that there were other estimators.

17 Q. Why was that?

18 A. Because they were there before me and

19 they — those were their accounts.

20 Q. And they became your accounts?

21 A. They became my account when everybody else

22 left.

23 Q. In ’62, ’63?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. What kind of work did Keasbey do at the

276

1 Bayway facility?

2 A. Mostly repair work.

3 Q. Can you describe their work for me,

4 please?

5 A. We would get a call, come down, look at a

6 job where some repair work had been done or a new

7 pump put in or a valve repaired or it might even

8 have been a small process job and we measure off the

9 iron normally and go in and insulate it.

10 Q. This would be the same work throughout the

11 ’50s, ’60s and ’70s?

12 A. Yes. We were basically not, as far as

13 those plants were concerned, more like a

14 maintenance. We did more maintenance work than new

15 construction, large new construction and especially

16 in the Bayway plant we didn’t do much large new

17 construction.

18 Q. Would the Keasbey do asbestos removal

19 during that maintenance work?

20 MR. CIFALDI: You mean in the formal sense

21 or part of their duties.

22 Q. As part of your duties as a maintenance

23 crew?

24 MR. FENTON: Objection.

25 A. It would be only there if there were a

277

1 pipe you were coming up to that was already

2 insulated and you had to match up to it. You would

3 make a cut to make a good match. As a general rule

4 to remove it for any reason, no, we didn’t do

5 removal work.

6 Q. At the Bayway facility, do you remember if

7 the work for Keasbey was done inside or outside?

8 MR. CIFALDI: Or both.

9 Q. Or both.

10 A. Most of it was done outside. I’m just

11 remembering. The paramin plant there was some

12 stuff was inside, but that was like I wouldn’t call

13 it a building, more like a shed with a roof on it.

14 Q. In the shed, was it open air?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The rest of the work was done outside?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did Keasbey use non asbestos products at

19 the Bayway facility between ’54 and ’63, ’64?

20 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

21 form of the question. Do you mean were some of the

22 products they used non asbestos or were they

23 particularly using products designated non

24 asbestos-containing?

25 Q. Were some of the products they used not

278

1 containing asbestos?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know what percentage of those

4 products?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you, yourself ever see

7 asbestos-containing products applied to pipes at the

8 Bayway facility?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That would be in the ’50s?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the ’60s?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the ’70s?

15 MR. FENTON: Objection.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With regard to the Bayonne facility for

18 Exxon was that work done generally outside?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In the ’50s?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In the ’60s?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The ’70s?

25 A. Yes.

279

1 Q. How many times did you visit the Bayonne

2 facility?

3 A. More frequently than I did at Bayway.

4 Q. Do you recall what kind of work was done

5 by Keasbey at the Bayonne facility?

6 A. Generally maintenance work.

7 Q. Similar to that at the Bayway facility?

8 A. It was more extensive because we had a

9 large crew of men in there most of the time. Could

10 have ranged anywhere from 2, 12, 14 men.

11 Q. That was between the ’50s all the way

12 through the ’80s?

13 A. All the way up until they changed their

14 method of operation. We had all the work on a time

15 and material basis.

16 Q. You testified to a PSE&G site in Jersey

17 City?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know when that project started?

20 A. I believe it was in 1967, ’68.

21 Q. Was Keasbey the only contractor at that

22 site?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Who was the other contractor or were there

25 others?

280

1 A. Philip Carey was one of them. I don’t

2 recall who had the turbine end of that project.

3 Philip Carey had the station piping. Keasbey had

4 the boiler and someone else had the turbine. Who it

5 was, I don’t know.

6 Q. Was that work done outside?

7 A. Yes. The whole unit was outside.

8 Q. You said ’67 and ’68. Were you ever at

9 the facility in ’67 or ’68?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often were you there?

12 A. Often. Maybe once a week.

13 Q. Were you able to see he Carey employees

14 work side by side with Keasbey employees?

15 A. Yes. I did.

16 Q. You testified that Keasbey was using an

17 asbestos spray at that facility. Is that correct?

18 A. That’s correct.

19 Q. Do you recall who manufactured that spray?

20 A. A company called Asbestos Spray. I

21 believe it was run by a fellow by the name of Levine

22 and there was another, Hal Drummond, was, I don’t

23 know if he was a represent for Levine or he had his

24 own company that we bought the material from.

25 Q. You testified about Bell Telephone Labs in

281

1 Holmdel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That was the last project, major project

4 that Keasbey used Philip Carey product for. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes. In New Jersey, as far as I was

7 concerned in New Jersey.

8 Q. How long did that project take?

9 A. Over a year.

10 Q. The whole time Carey product was used. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Carey and Gaston Bacon.

13 Q. What kind of Gaston Bacon products were

14 used?

15 A. Fiberglass.

16 Q. Were those fittings? Were they coated

17 with asbestos-containing cement for the fiberglass?

18 A. Yes, they would have been.

19 Q. Was that cement Philip Carey cement or

20 some other product?

21 A. That would have been mostly MW-1, Philip

22 Carey.

23 Q. Do you remember any of the other Carey

24 products used at the Bell Lab site?

25 A. Yes. They were Alltemp pipe covering.

282

1 Q. You testified about Carey work at the

2 American Cyanamid plant. Do you recall that?

3 A. Outside of Linden. I worked in that

4 plant, yes.

5 Q. Do you recall when Keasbey was in that

6 plant?

7 A. Not offhand.

8 Q. Do you recall if it was in the late ’60 s,

9 early ’60s’60s, something else?

10 A. It would have been in there, yes.

11 Q. Before ’63 or ’64?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What kind of work did Keasbey do?

14 A. I don’t recall.

15 Q. Would they have used asbestos-containing

16 products while working at the American Cyanamid

17 plant?

18 A. I don’t recall, but if it was high

19 temperature work, yes, it was.

20 Q. Do you recall if it was high temperature

21 work?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you want a break?

24 A. No, I’m fine. I’m changing my position.

25 Q. You also testified Keasbey worked at the

283

1 Bayonne Best Foods plant. Do you recall that plant?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall when Keasbey was working at

4 the Best Foods plant?

5 A. Seemed we were always working there.

6 Q. When you say always working there, was

7 that from the time you started in ‘ 54?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of work did they do at the Best

10 Foods plant?

11 A. Piping tanks and different vessels.

12 Q. Do you recall if Carey products were used

13 by Keasbey at the Best Foods plant?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. That would be up to ’63, ’64?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall testifying about the

18 Celanese plant?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall when Carey — when Keasbey

21 worked at the Celanese plant in Newark?

22 A. Yes, we always worked in there.

23 Q. When you say you always worked in there,

24 is that from the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s until you left?

25 A. Until they closed.

284

1 Q. What kinds of work did Keasbey do there?

2 A. Everything. Piping, vessels, machinery,

3 ducts.

4 Q. Did Keasbey use Carey products while

5 working at the Celanese plant?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What kind of Carey products?

8 A. Calcium silicate pipe covering, I guess we

9 also used Gaston Bacon. Gaston Bacon was

10 sort of tied in with Carey, fiberglass.

11 Q. Do you recall?

12 A. And block also. Calcium silicate block.

13 Q. Do you recall the the E.R. Squibb side?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You testified that Keasbey was there

16 throughout the ’60s and ’70s. Do you recall if more

17 work was done in the later ’60s or early ’70s or

18 early ’60s?

19 A. Most of it was done in the ’50s and ’60s.

20 Q. What kind of work was done at the E.R.

21 Squibb lab?

22 A. Everything. Full pharmaceutical plant.

23 Piping we did equipment and we did almost all of the

24 work in the plant in those early years.

25 Q. You said you did more work in the ’50s

285

1 into the late ’60s and ’70s?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall the Engelhard plant?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where was that plant?

6 A. On Delancy Street in Newark.

7 Q. When did Keasbey do work there?

8 A. We were always working in there also.

9 Q. From the time you started until the time

10 you left?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That was piping work?

13 A. Piping and vessels, a lot of vessels.

14 Pfaudler jacketed vessels.

15 Q. How would Keasbey employees insulate the

16 vessels?

17 A. Pfaudlers were generally done with calcium

18 silicate block and cement. Piping depended on the

19 temperature. It would be either calcium silicate or

20 fiberglass.

21 Q. Would you say more work was done in that

22 facility in the ’50s than the ’60s?

23 A. We were there all the time.

24 Q. Do you recall the Hoffmann-LaRoche plant?

25 A. Yes.

286

1 Q. Did Keasbey ever do work there?

2 A. One job.

3 Q. When was that job?

4 A. In the ’80s some time. You are talking

5 about the Nutley plant now?

6 Q. Yes. Do you recall the Tenneco Chemical

7 plant?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did Keasbey do work there?

10 MR. PLACITELLA: Didn’t I ask him all

11 these questions already? I think I asked him most

12 of these questions. You are helping, so keep going.

13 A. During the time we were in business as

14 long as Tenneco plant was open.

15 Q. Would that be in the ’60s and ’70s?

16 A. I don’t recall when they closed. It was

17 the ’50s and ’60s for sure. I don’t know if they

18 were there in the ’50s when I think about it.

19 Q. I believe you testified that Keasbey

20 worked there in the ’50s and ’70s?

21 A. That could be. I said I don’t remember

22 when the plant closed, but it was bought by

23 Coca-Cola and they eventually closed it down and

24 moved it down to Atlanta.

25 Q. Do you recall if Keasbey did work there in

287

1 the early ’60s or the late ’60s?

2 A. During the ’60s .

3 Q. Do you recall the Nabisco plant in Fair

4 Lawn?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recall if Keasbey did work there in

7 the ’60s?

8 A. I don’t recall when the plant was built,

9 but we did the whole plant.

10 Q. You mean building?

11 A. Building the plant. Nabisco, National

12 Biscuit Company, Fair Lawn Industrial Park. That

13 would have been early. You identified that. That

14 may have been in the later ’50s. I don’t recall the

15 dates.

16 Q. The Rheingold facility?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that work done in the ’60s and ’70s?

19 A. All the time the plant was there and I

20 worked for Keasbey we did work in there.

21 Q. The Rhodia plant?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did Keasbey do work at that Rhodia

24 plant?

25 A. In the ’60s.

288

1 Q. Late ’60s, early?

2 A. All through the ’60s.

3 Q. And the ’70s as well?

4 A. That, I don’t recall.

5 Q. A. B. Pettage?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you do work there the ’50s?

8 A. Yes. Are you talking about Newark or

9 Lyndhurst?

10 Q. Newark plant.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you do work there in the ’60s?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Early ’60s, late ’60s, something else?

15 A. All during the ’60s?

16 MR. CIFALDI: When you say him, you mean

17 Keasbey?

18 Q. I mean Keasbey. At the Lyndhurst

19 facility?

20 A. Same.

21 Q. 50′s ’60s and ’70s?

22 A. Until they closed.

23 Q. How about the Alcoa plant?

24 A. We did work in there. I never that had

25 anything to do with it. I was never there.

289

1 Q. Did Keasbey do work at the BASF site?

2 A. Yes, we did a job there. That would have

3 probably been the late ’60s and early ’70s. I don’t

4 recall what the job was like. You are talking about

5 the one in Kearny now?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Colgate-Palmolive in Jersey City?

9 A. We did a lot of work in Colgate-Palmolive.

10 Q. Was that in the ’60s?

11 A. All the time the plant was there we were

12 there frequently.

13 Q. And Continental Can in Jersey City?

14 A. We done some work in there also.

15 Q. Was that in the ’60s?

16 A. Off and on during the ’50s and ’60s.

17 Q. And the Hillside plant?

18 A. I only did one job in there. That was –

19 That would have been very late ’60s, early ’70s.

20 Q. How about the Ford plant in Mahwah?

21 A. Yes. When that building was originally

22 built we did a lot of work in there. We did the

23 bases for the paint ovens and we did all the ovens.

24 Q. In the early ’60s, late ’60s?

25 A. Would have been in the ’60s, but I don’t

290

1 remember just exactly when.

2 Q. The Ford plant in Metuchen?

3 A. We did some repair work in there.

4 Q. When would that have been?

5 A. I don’t recall.

6 Q. Do you recall Keasbey doing work at the

7 Koppers Company?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall when that work was done?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you recall Keasbey doing work at the

12 Pabst Brewery?

13 A. No.

14 Q. How about Reichhold Chemical?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When did Keasbey do work at the Reichhold

17 Chemical plant in Newark?

18 A. Off and on during the years.

19 Q. That would be the ’60s?

20 A. Late ’70s, ’60s into the ’70s.

21 Q. And in the Perth Amboy facility?

22 A. Where is that plant located?

23 Q. In Perth Amboy. I couldn’t tell you.

24 A. Is that the former Hayden Newport –

25 Reichhold bought it.

291

1 Q. I don’t know, sir.

2 A. I think it was. Yes, we worked in there.

3 Q. When was that work done?

4 A. That would have been the late ’60s and

5 ’70s.

6 Q. The Ford or Reichhold?

7 A. Who?

8 Q. Ford. The Reichhold facility in Fords?

9 A. That is the same plant, Hayden Newport

10 plant.

11 Q. Late ’60s, early ’70s?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. HIBBARD: Nothing further.

15 (Luncheon recess taken)

17 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Scherer. Other than

18 products manufactured by companies like Carey or OCF

19 or anyone else that Keasbey purchased products from

20 to use in performing insulation services, I want you

21 to eliminate all those types of products from your

22 answer to this question. Were any Robert A. Keasbey

23 products ever delivered to any job site in cartons

24 as opposed to bags?

25 A. I believe there were.

292

1 Q. I’m sorry?

2 A. Yes, I believe there were.

3 Q. What types of products were those?

4 A. I can’t remember the official name for it.

5 It was RAKCO something, but it was a pipe covering

6 manufactured out of woolfelt and roofing papers and

7 pitch and things of that nature. It was used on

8 very cold brine lines.

9 Q. That particular product was not an

10 asbestos-containing material?

11 A. No, it was not.

12 Q. Other than that product do you recall any

13 other Robert A. Keasbey products that were

14 delivered in cartons to job sites?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are you familiar with a gentleman who was

17 a member of Local 32 by the name of Walter Barile?

18 A. I know the name, but I don’t recall the

19 gentleman. The name is familiar to me.

20 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Barile

21 ever worked for the Robert A. Keasbey Company as an

22 insulator?

23 A. Not directly. Not directly. I don’t

24 recall ever meeting him.

25 Q. I want to make sure I understand the

293

1 answer to your question. What do you mean by not

2 directly?

3 A. I never recall directly meeting him or

4 remember if I did. He may have worked for us. I

5 may recognize the name from talking to someone about

6 him or seeing it on a payroll sheet.

7 Q. He was a member of –

8 A. If he was a member of Local 32 it is very

9 possible he did work for us.

10 Q. Earlier today you talked about ACandS and

11 I asked you whether you recall ACandS doing any work

12 at the Chevron site. I want to switch gears now and

13 ask you do you recall ACandS doing any insulation

14 work at Exxon during the period from 1954 when you

15 joined Keasbey through December 31, 1965?

16 MR. RASNEK: Objection to the form. At

17 what particular site?

18 Q. I’ll ask you in general. If the answer is

19 yes, I’ll ask more specifically.

20 A. I never saw them on the site that I can

21 recall. I do recall bidding against them.

22 Q. That would be with respect to both Bayway

23 and Bayonne?

24 A. Not Bayonne, no. Bayway.

25 Q. You recall them bidding at Bayway.

294

1 Q. But you don’t know whether they got the

2 work?

3 A. No. I don’t. I don’t know.

4 Q. You don’t know one way or the other?

5 A. No. I shouldn’t say I don’t know. Yes,

6 they did work there. Where it was, when it was, I

7 don’t know.

8 Q. You can’t place that work there in the

9 early or mid ’60s?

10 A. No, I can’t.

11 Q. What town was Bayway located in again?

12 A. I think it is officially Linden.

13 Q. During the times that you personally were

14 on-site at the Bayway facility in Linden, observing

15 Keasbey insulators doing work, do you have, as you

16 sit here today, a specific recollection of any

17 sheetmetal workers being in proximity of any Keasbey

18 insulators doing work at Exxon Bayway?

19 A. Specifically, no.

20 Q. If I ask you the same question with

21 respect to electricians at Exxon Bayway, is your

22 answered the same?

23 MR. PLACITELLA: Before he answers

24 that –

25 A. Yes.

295

1 MR. PLACITELLA: Too fast. I just have a

2 continuing objection to the phrase specifically.

3 This way no one will ever say I sat through a

4 deposition and didn’t object to that. Okay? Unless

5 you want me to do it each time.

6 MR. FENTON: From this point forward you

7 can have a continuing objection to the word

8 specifically.

9 Q. Would the answer be the same with respect

10 to Bayonne?

11 A. Bayonne?

12 Q. Yes.

13 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

14 form.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During your deposition you have testified

17 about a Public Service powerhouse in Jersey City,

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During the period of time that you were

21 personally present at that facility, sometime in the

22 ’66, ’67 ’68 time frame. Is that correct?

23 A. That’s correct.

24 Q. You testified about Carey insulators doing

25 work at the same time that the Robert A. Keasbey

296

1 Company was doing work, right?

2 A. That’s correct.

3 Q. Do you recall during that same time frame

4 whether any other insulators were present doing the

5 work other than Keasbey and Carey?

6 A. There may have been some insulators who

7 were working on the turbine job, but I don’t recall

8 that specifically there were or weren’t.

9 Q. Is it the time frame that gave you pause

10 or do you have a specific recollection of some other

11 insulation company doing work on a turbine at the

12 powerhouse in Jersey City at some time and you can’t

13 put it in that place or you are not sure one way or

14 the other?

15 A. The time frame is there. They built the

16 boiler. There were three jobs involved in the

17 boiler. The boiler itself, and its associated

18 piping, the station piping, which includes steam

19 piping and utility piping and the turbine.

20 The turbine was generally a separate job.

21 I know Carey had the station piping. I know Keasbey

22 had the boiler piping. Somebody had the turbine

23 piping, but who it was, I don’t recall. They might

24 have had people working on the job at the same time

25 we did.

297

1 Q. Are you sure it wasn’t Carey, it was

2 someone else or it might have been Carey?

3 A. As I say, it might. I don’t know who it

4 was. Carey had the station, we had the boiler. Who

5 had the turbine, I don’t know.

6 Q. I went through a list of other insulators

7 who were doing work in New Jersey previously. If I

8 were to go through that list again would that

9 possibly refresh your recollection as to who did the

10 turbine?

11 A. No. I have an idea who had it, but I

12 don’t know for sure and I can’t say they didn’t.

13 Q. We don’t want you to guess. If it is a

14 guess, we don’t want to know, but do you have a

15 basis to believe you know who had the turbine

16 contract?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you describe for us the Jersey City

19 powerhouse that we have been talking about in

20 general terms, physical layout?

21 A. Yes. It was unit number 2 which was right

22 next to unit number 1. Foster-Wheeler boiler. The

23 dimension of that boiler were 90 feet wide by

24 110 feet, 90 by 110. It was 272 feet high. It

25 consisted of, if you start at the back end, it had

298

1 what they call air preheaters and duct work from the

2 air preheaters to the furnace where the burner

3 sections were.

4 Then the boiler rose all the way up to the

5 penthouse which was at the top, crossed over the

6 penthouse and coming down the other side of the pent

7 house is what they call the exit, economizer

8 sections and then there was a connection from the

9 economizer section back into the preheaters and from

10 there out to the stack.

11 There was a lot of miscellaneous fans and

12 duct work because that particular was unit for

13 burning the coal or oil or gas. There was a lot of

14 loppers for coal and pulverizing equipment involved

15 also.

16 Q. Was unit 1 and unit 2 in separate

17 buildings or were they in the same building?

18 A. They were not in building at all. They

19 were outside units. The only part that may have

20 been in the building would be the turbines. Low

21 office building off the side of the boilers and I

22 believe the turbines were inside them in an

23 enclosure, but I can’t even — no, they weren’t

24 either. They were up on like a platform. They had

25 a sheet metal casing over it. They weren’t inside a

299

1 building, the turbines.

2 Q. Was unit 1 in operation when unit 2 was

3 being constructed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How far, in terms of feet, was the turbine

6 from the boiler you just described?

7 A. Maybe the length of this room.

8 Q. Can you estimate for us?

9 A. I walked it a dozen times. The boiler

10 ended and there was an alleyway and then it was a

11 turbine building next to that.

12 Q. I’m bad at distances. An estimate of

13 50 feet?

14 A. 50 feet or more.

15 Q. 50 feet or more?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. When you, as part of the Keasbey

18 boiler contract — Keasbey had the boiler associated

19 piping. Is that right?

20 MR. RASNEK: Objection to form.

21 A. We had particular piping that came with

22 the boiler, when I say associated pipes.

23 Q. That’s what I mean.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Approximately how far from the boiler

300

1 itself did Keasbey’s jurisdiction end on this job?

2 A. Practically, I would say, on the structure

3 of the boiler itself.

4 Q. And then the Carey insulators would pick

5 up right there?

6 A. They had some piping that came up, station

7 piping that came up on the boiler also. The

8 difference is the boiler piping includes what they

9 call the start-up piping which is on the roof, the

10 high pressure and low pressure heater outlet header

11 which were large pipes heading off the back in

12 between the enclosure.

13 It would include the downcomers which

14 were pipes equalizing the pressure going from the

15 top of the boiler all the way down and back into the

16 boiler again. These were all enclosed in the

17 boiler.

18 Boiler feed water piping, for instance,

19 was not part of the boiler. That’s part of the

20 station piping. The main steam headers, high

21 pressure steam that went down to the turbine, that’s

22 part of the station piping. That was also up on the

23 boiler.

24 So many cases Carey’s people were working

25 near our people on the boiler itself.

301

1 Q. That high pressure piping you described,

2 that was part of the job Carey was doing?

3 A. Yes. The high pressure steam. The main

4 steam down to the turbine.

5 Q. They did the feed water heaters as well?

6 A. The feed water piping up to the

7 economizer.

8 Q. Who insulated the feed water heaters?

9 A. I believe they may have been down inside

10 the turbine building. They weren’t on the boiler.

11 That would have been station piping. That was not

12 part of the boiler.

13 Q. Not part of what Keasbey did?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I’m not sure I understood. Your final

16 recollection were the turbines were inside the

17 building or outside?

18 A. There was a building, at least the top

19 half of the turbines came through the building. It

20 was in like a roof. It was like a walkway.

21 Concrete path and they had a lot of piping inside

22 like the steam piping. Plane steam piping might

23 have been fed through there. The top half of the

24 turbines were up on the top of this building but

25 they were in a shroud of sheet metal which could be

302

1 pulled back or forth to expose them if they had to

2 work on them.

3 Q. Did you have occasion while you were there

4 to enter that structure of the bottom half of the

5 turbine for any reason?

6 A. I may have walked through it, but I didn’t

7 really have any work there.

8 Q. Was that enclosed such that if it rained

9 the water wouldn’t get in?

10 A. Yes, it would.

11 Q. Do you know whether or not someone working

12 in that enclosure on the bottom half of the turbine

13 was in a position to be exposed to any asbestos from

14 the work Keasbey was doing on the boiler?

15 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the

16 form.

17 MR. FENTON: Basis?

18 MR. PLACITELLA: Was he in a

19 position. I don’t know if he was an industrial

20 hygienist skilled and knowledgeable about how far

21 asbestos travels, wind currents, et cetera. If you

22 are asking how far he was, that’s a different story.

23 That’s my objection.

24 MR. FENTON: Okay.

25 A. What was the question again?

303

1 Q. The question is based on your earlier

2 testimony that the bottom part of the turbine was in

3 a structure that would prevent it from getting wet,

4 do you know whether or not someone working in that

5 structure could be exposed to asbestos from the work

6 that the Keasbey insulators were doing on the

7 boiler?

8 A. No, I don’t know.

9 Q. Based on the times that you were present

10 at unit 2 in the Jersey City powerhouse while

11 Keasbey workers were insulating the boiler, do you

12 recall whether or not from time to time it was

13 windy?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. And was that more often than not that it

16 was windy?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. Would you say it was windy every time you

19 were there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When it was windy, did the wind always

22 blow in the same direction or did it below in

23 variable directions?

24 A. Variable directions.

25 Q. Sometimes do you recall the wind was

304

1 blowing away from the turbine towards the boiler?

2 A. Could have been blowing from anywhere.

3 That building was right at the bend in the

4 Hackensack River across the river from Koppers Coke

5 and wind came from every direction.

6 Q. Do you recall whether or not the unit 2 at

7 the Jersey City powerhouse was one of the job sites

8 where Keasbey was shipping masks for the workers?

9 MR. DISIPIO: Objection.

10 A. No, I don’t.

11 Q. If there were documents indicating that

12 masks were being sent to Keasbey workers at this

13 location, you wouldn’t have any reason to disagree

14 with that?

15 MR. CIFALDI: Objection. He hasn’t seen

16 the documents. I don’t know how he could possibly

17 answer the question. It could you be a forged

18 document, it could be be a made up document written

19 by a five year old.

20 MR. PLACITELLA: I would accept that

21 if you are saying as a good faith basis that you

22 have such documents, I have no problem with the

23 question, but I would to turn the documents over

24 because I would like to ask my client how come you

25 didn’t give them to him.

305

1 MR. CIFALDI: With all those

2 objections, do you have an answer to the question?

3 Do you remember what it is?

4 A. What is the question?

5 Q. The question is if there are Keasbey

6 documents indicating that masks were sent to this

7 particular job site, would you have reason to

8 disagree with it?

9 A. If there were documents showing that they

10 went there?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Would I have reason to disagree?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. No.

15 Q. I’m not sure whether you were asked about

16 this particular company. Do you know whether

17 Keasbey ever did any work for DuPont in New Jersey?

18 A. Not that I can recall.

19 Q. Are you familiar with a company by the

20 name of Hemminger Sheet Metal?

21 A. Yes, I am.

22 Q. How are you familiar with Hemminger Sheet

23 Metal?

24 A. I’ve done some insulation work for

25 Hemminger Sheet Metal and Hemminger Sheet Metal was

306

1 the contractor that put the cladding on Hudson

2 number 2 boiler, the lagging, I should say aluminum

3 lagging.

4 Q. Do you recall where the Keasbey Company

5 did work for Hemminger Sheet Metal?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you say did Keasbey ever provide any

8 products to Hemminger?

9 A. No, I didn’t.

10 Q. To your knowledge did Keasbey provide any

11 products to Hemminger Sheet Metal?

12 A. Not that I know of.

13 Q. Now this aluminum lagging, at what point

14 in time does the aluminum lagging go on — strike

15 that.

16 Why don’t you tell us what aluminum

17 lagging is?

18 A. It is the outside surface that went over

19 the insulation to protect it from the weather.

20 Q. At what point in time is the aluminum

21 lagging placed on the piping insulation?

22 A. Not on the piping, on the boiler walls.

23 Q. On the boiler walls?

24 A. Yes. The preliminary floor work is done

25 pretty much at the same time. That particular job,

307

1 what we did, we went in as soon as possible and

2 welded, put spot welding pins on the boiler walls.

3 I believe Hemminger came in at the same

4 time and put what they called highhats on the boiler

5 walls. It was to hold the lagging. Then as the

6 work progressed we would put the boiler insulating

7 material up over our pins and they would follow up

8 and put the lagging over our insulation.

9 Q. What material was used on the boiler walls

10 at unit 2?

11 A. It was what they called BIM, which stood

12 for Boiler Instances Material. It was a fiberglass

13 bat that came in 4 by 8 sheets and was rather light

14 density. I don’t recall using that density. It was

15 probably two and a half or 3-pound per cubic foot.

16 Q. Am I correct that material did not contain

17 asbestos?

18 A. No, it did not.

19 Q. In putting this BIM –

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the boiler walls did that require the

22 use of any cement material?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And did placing the aluminum lagging on

25 the boiler walls didn’t disturb any

308

1 asbestos-containing materials?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are you familiar with a company called

4 Folander, F O L A N D E R Sheet Metal?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How are you familiar with them?

7 A. I did some work for him. He was a sheet

8 metal contractor.

9 Q. When you say you did some work with them,

10 was that during your tenure at Keasbey?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What work did you do for Folander?

13 A. I don’t recall exactly what it was. It

14 would have been insulating duct work.

15 Q. Do you recall when?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did the materials used to insulate duct

18 work contain asbestos?

19 A. Generally not.

20 Q. The duct work that you described at the

21 Jersey City powerhouse unit 2, running from the air

22 preheaters, what materials did Keasbey use to

23 insulator that duct work?

24 A. The boiler insulation materials.

25 Q. So, again no asbestos?

309

1 A. No. From the air heating?

2 Q. It –

3 A. From the air heater to the furnace, no,

4 that didn’t have any asbestos.

5 Q. Was there any duct work associated with

6 the boiler at unit 2 that Keasbey was responsible to

7 insulate in addition to the duct work running from

8 the air heaters?

9 A. Yes, there was.

10 Q. What duct work was that?

11 A. Primary air ducts and the exit flu. You

12 could consider that a duct also. From the

13 economizer back to the preheaters.

14 Q. Can you tell us where the primary air

15 ducts are?

16 A. Underneath the boiler.

17 Q. Can you tell me do you know the maximum

18 design temperature that the primary air ducts are

19 designed to have?

20 A. No, I don’t. Evidently — I don’t know.

21 Q. Do you recall what materials were used at

22 unit 2 that insulated primary air ducts?

23 A. Fiberglass.

24 Q. And how about the exit flu, do you know

25 the maximum design temperature that the exit flue

310

1 would reach?

2 A. Maximum temperature I don’t know, but it

3 was after the economizer. I don’t know the actual

4 maximum temperature.

5 Q. And what materials was the exit flu

6 insulated with?

7 A. Calcium silicate block.

8 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today

9 approximately how many square feet of calcium

10 silicate block was necessary to do the exit flu?

11 A. A lot. I can think about it and make a

12 guess on it for.

13 Q. I don’t want you to guess. If you have a

14 reasonable estimate.

15 A. Well, I would say somewhere probably

16 between 2,500 to 3,000 square feet.

17 Q. Back to Folander Sheet Metal, do you

18 recall the particular job site at which you,

19 Keasbey, insulated duct work for Folander?

20 A. No, I don’t.

21 Q. Was it one job or more than one?

22 A. No. I knew Folander for a number of

23 years. We have figured work for him off and on.

24 Q. Let me go to one more work site, then

25 there’s been a request for a break.

311

1 Are you familiar with a location Schering

2 in Bloomfield?

3 A. Yes. Schering-Plough Corporation, yes, I

4 am.

5 Q. How are you familiar with Schering-Plough

6 Corporation?

7 A. In Bloomfield? Near Kean College?

8 Q. There seems to be a location in Kenilworth

9 and a location in Union.

10 A. Union. Maybe the Kenilworth.

11 Q. You don’t recall any work that Keasbey did

12 during your tenure there for Schering-Plough

13 Corporation in Bloomfield?

14 A. Not during the years you are interested

15 in. We did work there after 1972, ’73.

16 Q. No asbestos?

17 A. I don’t recall any earlier work there.

18 Q. The work you recall at the Schering-Plough

19 Corporation from Bloomfield did not involve

20 asbestos?

21 A. No. The job I remember did not involve

22 asbestos. That. may have been earlier work i was

23 not aware of.

24 (Recess taken)

312

1 Q. Mr. Scherer, did Keasbey ever do any work

2 at the Livingston Mall?

3 A. Not to my knowledge. In fact, I’ll say

4 no, they did not.

5 Q. There’s been some testimony about the E.R.

6 Squibb facility in New Brunswick. Do you know

7 whether or not Keasbey ever sold any products to

8 Squibb at that facility and I’m talking outside of

9 instances in which Keasbey was installing the

10 products.

11 A. Not that I can recall.

12 Q. You had mentioned earlier, I don’t recall

13 what was your involvement, if any, in terms of just

14 the sale of products as opposed to the provision of

15 insulation services during your tenure at Keasbey?

16 A. My first two years I was involved with

17 what they call depot retail of material. I didn’t

18 go out and sell that. When orders came in we would

19 fill the orders and send them out.

20 Q. After that when you became an estimator

21 did you have any continued involvement in the sale

22 of products?

23 A. Very little. Very little. That was

24 whoever was taking the clerk’s job would handle

25 that, the order clerk.

313

1 Q. You testified as well concerning Merck,

2 correct?

3 A. No, it is not.

4 Q. No testimony about Merck? I apologize. A

5 few sites have been covered in the last couple of

6 days.

7 A. I mentioned the site, but I didn’t testify

8 about doing any work.

9 Q. Let me ask you did the Robert A. Keasbey

10 Company do any work for Merck while you were there?

11 A. Not that I recall.

12 Q. Do you recall Keasbey doing any work for

13 Prudential at a site located near Livingston, New

14 Jersey?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you recall Keasbey doing any work in

17 any place in New Jersey for the Prudential?

18 A. Newark.

19 Q. What work did Keasbey do for Prudential in

20 Newark?

21 A. We did some refrigeration lines up in the

22 penthouse and I recall doing some condenser water

23 piping lines or could have been refrigerant piping

24 lines in one of the chases going up to the

25 penthouse. Two different times.

314

1 Q. Do you recall when you, being Keasbey, did

2 the work for Prudential in Newark with respect to

3 the refrigeration lines in the penthouse?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. When?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. That I don’t recall. It would have been

9 probably sometime in the ’60s.

10 Q. How about the condenser chases?

11 A. About the same time.

12 Q. Do you recall what type of insulation

13 materials were used on those jobs?

14 A. No. Those chases we used foam glass pipe

15 covering and the penthouse we used cork.

16 Q. With respect to the use of the cork, did

17 that job require the use of any cement?

18 A. I don’t believe so.

19 Q. How about with respect to the foam glass

20 pipe covering, did that involve the use of any

21 cement?

22 A. No.

23 Q. To the best of your recollection did

24 Keasbey use any asbestos-containing materials at

25 this job for the Prudential in Newark?

315

1 A. Not that I recall.

2 Q. Do you recall whether Keasbey did any work

3 for Martland, M A R T L A N D Hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How about Hess Oil?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you work for them on just one occasion

8 or more than one occasion?

9 A. More than one occasion.

10 Q. Do you remember at what Hess Oil facility

11 Keasbey did work?

12 A. At the plant in Port Reading, in Newark,

13 Bayonne, Edgewater and Perth Amboy.

14 Q. Also, in, I guess that’s Perth Amboy, two

15 First Reserve Terminals, one up on State Street in

16 Perth Amboy and the other one is down near Carteret

17 right off the river.

18 Let’s start with Port Reading. Did

19 Keasbey do work there on one occasion or more than

20 one occasion?

21 A. Many occasions.

22 Q. When was the first time that Keasbey did

23 any work at the Port Reading facility of Hess Oil?

24 A. I don’t recall.

25 Q. When was the last time that Keasbey did

316

1 any work at Port reading?

2 A. 1975 when they rebuilt the plant.

3 Q. During the period of time in 1985 when

4 they rebuilt the plant, do you believe Keasbey used

5 any asbestos-containing materials?

6 A. I don’t.

7 Q. During the earlier occasions do you recall

8 the nature of the work that Keasbey did?

9 A. It was generally piping work. In Port

10 Reading?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. It was generally piping work or small

13 vessels.

14 Q. Do you recall whether or not any of that

15 work involved asbestos?

16 A. Oh, yes, it would.

17 Q. Up until the time when Keasbey stopped

18 using asbestos?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you believe that Keasbey did any

21 asbestos abatement work at Port Reading?

22 A. No. I want to talk about the Hess Oil

23 facility now at Newark. Do you recall whether or

24 not Keasbey did work there on one occasion or more

25 than one occasion?

317

1 A. Basically it was one occasion. It was all

2 insulation on tanks.

3 Q. Do you recall when that work was done?

4 A. No, I do not. In the ’70s.

5 Q. Could that have been the mid ’70′s or the

6 later?

7 A. Probably late ’70s.

8 Q. Late ’70s?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you believe Keasbey did use asbestos at

11 the Hess Oil facility?

12 A. No, we didn’t.

13 Q. How about Hess Oil in Bayonne, how many

14 times did Keasbey do work there?

15 A. Once.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. About the same time. It was also all tank

18 work.

19 Q. No asbestos?

20 A. No asbestos.

21 Q. How about Edgewater?

22 A. Same period of time, same thing.

23 Q. No asbestos?

24 A. No asbestos.

25 Q. And Perth Amboy, the State Street

318

1 facility, how many times would Keasbey be there?

2 A. Again, there was just tanks. We did that

3 at that same period of time.

4 Q. No asbestos?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You said there was a second Perth Amboy

7 facility that was right off the river in Carteret?

8 A. That may have been Perth Amboy also. I’m

9 not sure. Right off the river.

10 Q. Regardless of where it is located, how

11 many times did Keasbey do work there?

12 A. Quite often.

13 Q. When was the first time that Keasbey did

14 any work at that facility?

15 A. Probably in the ’70s.

16 Q. Could it have been the late ’70s?

17 A. I really don’t recall. I know we did the

18 tanks in about the same time as those other tanks,

19 but we had been doing some pipelines there, oil

20 pipelines.

21 Q. With respect to the tanks, you believe

22 that Keasbey used asbestos?

23 A. Not on the tanks, no.

24 Q. How about the pipelines?

25 A. Piping I’m not sure.

319

1 Q. You are not sure one way or the other?

2 I’m not sure if you ever answered that question.

3 A. I’m not sure if we did or we didn’t.

4 Q. Do you know whether Keasbey did any work

5 for Hoffmann-LaRoche?

6 MR. PLACITELLA: Didn’t we do this

7 twice already?

8 MR. FENTON: I’m just setting up the

9 places.

10 A. Which plant?

11 Q. Hoffmann-LaRoche.

12 A. The one in Nutley or the one in Belvidere?

13 Q. Let’s do both. Nutley.

14 A. Did one job in Nutley.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. That was –

17 MR. CIFALDI: This is the one that

18 somebody had an in and they didn’t get much of the

19 work there, remember?

20 Q. No asbestos?

21 A. No asbestos.

22 Q. The other Hoffmann-LaRoche site?

23 A. The one in Belvidere?

24 Q. Right.

25 A. Did one job in there. There was a tank.

320

1 There may have been some asbestos on the roof. I’m

2 not positive.

3 Q. How about M and M?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Hackettstown?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Mr. Scherer, are you familiar with DuPont

8 Photo Products? Does that ring any bells?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In Parlin, New Jersey?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how are you familiar with DuPont Photo

13 Products?

14 A. We did work there.

15 Q. Was that on just one occasion or more than

16 one occasion?

17 A. More than one occasion.

18 Q. When was the first time you recall Keasbey

19 doing work at DuPont Photo Products?

20 A. I don’t remember.

21 Q. Are you able to recall whether it was in

22 the ’50s, ’60s or ’70s?

23 A. Probably in all of those times. In there

24 off and on. Did the work and I would estimate it,

25 we would go and do it.

321

1 Q. When was the last time you recall Keasbey

2 doing any work at Dupont Photo Products?

3 A. I don’t recall.

4 Q. The first job you have a recollection,

5 what was the nature of that work?

6 A. Most of the work we did was on duct work

7 and equipment, fans and things of that nature on

8 roofs.

9 Q. Was there a particular type of duct work?

10 A. I think it was air conditioning. I’m

11 really not sure. May have been some exhaust duct

12 work also.

13 Q. Do you remember who hired Keasbey to do

14 that work?

15 A. We did it directly for the plant.

16 Q. Were you at the DuPont Photo Products

17 facility from time to time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there a particular individual that you

20 dealt with at that facility?

21 A. Yes, there was, but I don’t remember who

22 it was.

23 Q. When you say the Photo Products Facility,

24 there were two plants?

25 A. I forget which was — right next to each

322

1 other. We worked both of them.

2 Q. When you were going the duct work at Photo

3 Products in the ’60s, what were you insulating the

4 duct work with?

5 A. Basically fiberglass and finishing it off

6 in some instances with cement and level it out and

7 then waterproof finishing with mastic.

8 Q. In the ’60s did the cement contain

9 asbestos?

10 A. Yes –

11 Q. Did the plastic?

12 A. I believe it had asbestos fillers in it.

13 Permatex B.

14 Q. How many times were you present at DuPont

15 Photo Products when the Keasbey men were actually

16 insulating the duct work?

17 A. I don’t recall.

18 Q. Were there some instances where you were

19 there when men were insulating the duct work?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During those instances as you sit here

22 today do you have a recollection of air conditioning

23 and refrigeration mechanics being in proximity of

24 Keasbey insulators when they were mixing or applying

25 cement?

323

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is the same true with respect to mastic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you mentioned equipment like fans on

5 the roofs. Was all of the equipment that Keasbey

6 was insulating at Dupont Photo Products on the roof?

7 A. Jobs I can recall were.

8 Q. Where was the duct work, by the way?

9 A. On the roof.

10 Q. All of it was on the roof?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The work was 100 percent outside?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you were insulating the equipment in

15 the ’60s, what materials was Keasbey using?

16 A. Fiberglass.

17 Q. Were any asbestos-containing materials

18 used in connection with that work?

19 A. Cement work.

20 Q. As you sit here today do you have a

21 recollection of an air conditioning and

22 refrigeration mechanic being in proximity of any

23 Keasbey insulators at any time they were mixing or

24 using asbestos cement?

25 A. No.

324

1 Q. Was any plastic used in connection with

2 the equipment?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As you sit here today do you have a

5 specific recollection of any air conditioning and

6 refrigeration mechanic being in proximity of any

7 Keasbey insulators when they were using mastic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. We have spoken today about the PSE&G

10 powerhouse unit 2 in Jersey City. Did Keasbey do

11 any work at a PSE&G facility in Sewaren,

12 S E W A R E N?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the nature of the work that –

15 did Keasbey do work at the Sewaren facility just once or

16 more than once?

17 A. More than once.

18 Q. When was the first time you recall

19 Keasbey –

20 A. I don’t recall.

21 Q. When was the last time?

22 A. I don’t recall.

23 Q. What was the nature of the work Keasbey

24 was doing there?

25 A. Generally we would be doing a water heater

325

1 or some miscellaneous piping.

2 Q. Relatively small jobs?

3 A. Well, the water heater was a fairly large

4 size job. It might take a couple of men a week to

5 do or something like that.

6 Q. Are you able to, without being specific,

7 to give a specific date, place the earliest work at

8 this facility in a particular job title, for

9 example, during the period of time before you became

10 an estimator in 1956?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Are you able to place the work in the

13 ’50s?

14 A. No, not really.

15 Q. Can you place the work in the early ’60s?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I have a higher degree of confidence I’ll

18 be able to pronounce the next job site. Another

19 Public Service Electric and Gas generating station,

20 the Mercer Generating Station in Hamilton, New

21 Jersey?

22 A. Never did any work there.

23 Q. Mr. Scherer, over the years of your

24 experience at Keasbey was there a particular type of

25 insulation that was used more frequently in food

326

1 plants than in other types of facilities?

2 A. That would depend on the plant, what the

3 plant manufactured. For instance, a plant like Best

4 Foods would have a lot of calcium silicate. A plant

5 like Nabisco bakery plant, and that nature, they

6 would not use any fiberglass, but they would use

7 more calcium silicate and Aircell in it.

8 A food plant like Breyers Ice Cream would

9 be using a lot of cork and foam glass. Same with

10 the brewery. No. A brewery would use almost

11 anything. It varied from plant to plant.

12 Q. How about the Rheingold Brewery?

13 A. Rheingold would use on their chilled stuff

14 would be mostly maybe foam glass or fiberglass, but

15 the rest of it would be calcium silicate on all

16 their hot piping.

17 You had to also take into

18 consideration what kind of abuse. The fiberglass

19 did not stand up well to abuse.

20 Q. From time to time were mineral wool

21 products used at Bayway?

22 A. Bayway?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Exxon, Bayway?

25 Q. Yes.

327

1 A. Not on piping.

2 Q. Elsewhere in the plant?

3 A. Possibly on a tank or something of that

4 nature.

5 Q. In terms of Bayway and in terms of

6 performing your job responsibilities for Keasbey at

7 that location, were you with mechanical contractors

8 officers more than the actual site itself?

9 A. No.

10 MR. FENTON: That’s all the questions I

11 have for you right now.

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:

14 Q. Just a couple of follow-up questions.

15 Over the lunch break, Mr. Scherer, did you have the

16 opportunity to look at drawings dated 1961 related

17 to the Sandoz facility?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And after looking at those drawings did

20 you come to a conclusion as to whether or not

21 asbestos-containing pipe covering was installed by

22 Robert A. Keasbey at the Sandoz facility when the

23 research building was constructed?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 UNKNOWN VOICE: Objection.

328

1 A. There the high pressure steam piping would

2 have been done with calcium silicate pipe

3 covering.

4 Q. Why do you say that?

5 A. Because of the temperature.

6 Q. And you saw that specified on the drawing?

7 A. It said high pressure steam and high pressure

8 steam normally would not take fiberglass temperatures.

9 MR. PLACITELLA: That’s all the questions

10 I have.

11 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MCGUIRE:

13 Q. I’m Jack McGuire. I have hopefully a few

14 questions to ask you. Not too many.

15 Mr. Scherer, were you involved in

16 obtaining the contractor for doing the boiler work

17 at unit 2 in Public Service Electric and Gas in

18 Jersey City?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who hired you to do the insulation on the

21 work on the boiler there?

22 A. Foster-Wheeler Corporation.

23 Q. Was there anybody in particular who you

24 dealt with?

25 A. John O’Connor and Walter Malise.

329

1 MR. PLACITELLA: Walter Malise from

2 Shrewsbury, New Jersey?

3 A. He worked for Hemminger. He is the one

4 that got the Hemminger contract to put the cladding

5 on the boiler, the lagging.

6 Q. How long did that contractor take from

7 start to finish? Do you know?

8 A. About a year. Maybe a little less or a

9 little more.

10 Q. I apologize if you were asked this before,

11 but how many times were you personally on site

12 during that year?

13 A. At least once a week. At least?

14 Q. Yes. For the entire day or less than a

15 day.

16 A. It would depend on what I had to do. I

17 kept a very close check on the job.

18 Q. Do you know Charles Wecker?

19 A. No. Don’t sound familiar.

20 Q. You said before that Robert A. Keasbey

21 utilized union insulators. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. And they would be from the Asbestos

24 Workers Union?

25 A. Yes.

330

1 Q. What was the local?

2 A. Local 32.

3 Q. Were you a member of Local 32?

4 A. No, I was not.

5 Q. You said that other employees of Robert A.

6 Keasbey were members of Local 32. Is that correct?

7 A. All men who worked in the field or touched

8 the insulation or took it offer the back of a truck

9 had to be a member of Local 32.

10 Q. Why were you not a member of Local 32?

11 A. I just never was. You have to be born

12 into it or become an apprentice and then go through

13 an apprentice deal.

14 Q. Is it accurate to say, Mr. Scherer, that

15 all jobs that Robert A. Keasbey did they utilized

16 Local 32 insulators?

17 MR. FENTON: In New Jersey?

18 Q. Yes, in New Jersey.

19 A. Exclusively? Let me answer that to say

20 that yes, all insulation work was done by Local 32

21 asbestos workers. That is all we utilized.

22 Occasionally we were using some heavy gauge sheet

23 metal which was not in the scope of the work for the

24 insulator. We would hire combined crews and put

25 some sheet metal worker on to work with us.

331

1 Q. You were asked a question earlier about

2 your interaction with members of the asbestos workers

3 union. Is it fair to say that the management of

4 of Robert A. Keasbey would interact regularly with

5 the members of the asbestos workers union?

6 MR. CIFALDI: If you know.

7 A. I was the management in New Jersey.

8 Q. Did you interact with them on a fairly

9 regular basis?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You indicated earlier that Keasbey would

12 have received regular copies of the Asbestos Worker

13 Magazine, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I want to show you a section of one of the

16 magazines from February 1960 and ask you if you have

17 ever seen it.

18 MR. McGUIRE: Mark this as D-1.

19 (The above mentioned document is marked

20 as D-1 for Identification.)

21 MR. CIFALDI: He is asking if you ever saw

22 that issue before?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. February 1960.

25 MR. CIFALDI: I guess he is referring to

332

1 the happy birthday, the Robert Keasbey section.

2 That would be my guess.

3 Q. Do you see where it says happy birthday?

4 It talks about the birthday of the Keasbey Company?

5 A. No, I don’t recall seeing it.

6 MR. PLACITELLA: Was it a happy

7 birthday?

8 A. What year was it?

9 Q. February 1960. That was the edition.

10 A. No. I hadn’t had big jobs by then yet.

11 Q. You indicated before that you were

12 familiar with the name Dr. Selikoff?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell us what you recall about Dr. Selikoff

15 and the work he did with regard to potential health

16 hazards of asbestos?

17 A. Really very little. Just that I remember

18 we had some discussions at some of the fund meetings

19 about it, but I don’t recall much about it.

20 Q. Do you recall when you had those

21 discussions, when you had those discussions at the

22 meetings?

23 A. When?

24 Q. Yes.

333

1 A. That would have been after 1972 because I

2 wasn’t — I only took the position as a fund trustee

3 after Julius died in 1972, so it would have been

4 subsequent to 1972.

5 Q. When you say a fund trustee, what fund are

6 you talking about?

7 A. All of the union funds.

8 Q. Would that include — didn’t mean to

9 cut you off.

10 A. They have to have an equal number of union

11 and employer trustees for the funds.

12 Q. Did you ever do any work for the health

13 and welfare fund of Local 32?

14 MR. PLACITELLA: Same thing.

15 A. That was one of the funds, yes.

16 Q. Are you aware that when Keasbey hired

17 members of the asbestos workers local to do a job

18 that they had to make a financial contribution to

19 the health and welfare fund to help support Dr.

20 Selikoff’s research?

21 A. We had to make a percentage contribution

22 to all of the funds. That was one of them, but I

23 don’t know what they used the money for. They never

24 discussed it with us, even at the trustee meetings.

25 Q. What members of Local 32 did you interact

334

1 with? Do you recall their names?

2 A. A lot of them. Well, how many do you want

3 to know?

4 Q. As many as you can recall.

5 A. The business agent was Jim Brogan. Before

6 him it was Jim Mulhern. The assistant business

7 agent was John Dwyer. I can’t offhand remember the

8 name of the fund, the fellow that took care of the

9 funds in the office. I had a lot of mechanics.

10 Arty Heim, Joe Wajoka, Jack Billis, Wally Shubert,

11 Eddie Ostrowsky, Fred Dealdun, Jack Kaplan, Sammy

12 and Tommy Stulidge. I can picture a lot of faces.

13 I can’t remember a lot of the names.

14 Q. When did you first meet any of these

15 gentlemen?

16 A. Another one was Roy Doty. I met him when

17 I first came to work in the company in 1954.

18 Q. And Mr. Doty was a member of the asbestos

19 workers union?

20 A. Yes. He was a member of the asbestos

21 workers, but Local 12 New York.

22 Q. What was said to you about the work that

23 Selikoff was that doing at this fund trustee meeting

24 you talked about?

25 A. I don’t recall.

335

1 Q. Is it your testimony that the first time

2 you had heard about the work Dr. Selikoff was doing

3 with regard to studying the health effects of

4 asbestos was after 1972?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. None of the gentlemen you just mentioned

7 who were members of Local 32 ever once mentioned to

8 you that Dr. Selikoff was studying the potential

9 health effects of asbestos prior to 1972?

10 A. Not that I recall.

11 Q. Did you ever undergo any health screening

12 run by Dr. Selikoff?

13 A. No. Not by Dr. Selikoff.

14 Q. By anyone else?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. The Insulation Contractors Association of

18 New Jersey ran some health screenings.

19 Q. What was the name of that?

20 A. Insulation Contractors Association Of New

21 Jersey.

22 Q. Were they affiliated with the union?

23 A. No. They were not. They were — we had

24 what they call an industry fund that ran it.

25 Q. Did anyone from the asbestos workers union

336

1 ever suggest that employees of Robert A. Keasbey

2 undergo health screenings with Dr. Selikoff?

3 A. Not that I recall.

4 Q. What was it specifically that you came to

5 understand Dr. Selikoff was doing when you first

6 found out about it?

7 A. I came to understand that he had been

8 doing some type of a survey of Local 32 workers for

9 a number of years on some kind of a research project

10 which had to do with the health of their lungs.

11 Q. After hearing about Dr. Selikoff’s work

12 did you come to a belief as to the potential health

13 risks of exposure to asbestos?

14 A. Eventually, yes.

15 Q. Was it at that meeting that you were

16 informed about Dr. Selikoff or some time thereafter?

17 A. Probably. We weren’t informed about it.

18 His name had been mentioned, but I hadn’t been

19 really paying much attention to it at the time.

20 Later on we also had our own insulation

21 industry fund and we discussed problems with that.

22 That’s when we decided to have our own screenings

23 and we brought somebody in in a mobile unit and we

24 all went to somebody’s parking lot and got screened.

25 Q. I think you mentioned at some point

337

1 Mr. Keasbey said no more asbestos was to be used?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long after you learned of Dr.

4 Selikoff’s work did Mr. Keasbey make that

5 pronouncement?

6 A. I don’t recall.

7 Q. Was it more than a year, less than a year?

8 A. I don’t recall.

9 Q. During the course of the deposition you

10 were asked by counsel about Keasbey’s familiarity

11 with insulation products. I think you talked about

12 the fact that you had to know about things such as

13 the K factor. Is that correct?

14 A. That’s correct.

15 Q. You had to know temperature ranges of

16 various insulation products?

17 A. That’s correct.

18 Q. And the appropriate use for insulation

19 products in certain applications?

20 A. Yes.

21 A. So, is it fair to say that you –The work

22 you did at Robert A. Keasbey required you be fairly

23 expert with regard to the uses of insulation

24 products.

25 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

338

1 use the term expert. That word has certain legal

2 connotations that may not be in the common parlance

3 of his understanding of the word. With that comment

4 you can answer.

5 A. We had to be very knowledgeable in the

6 uses of our materials.

7 Q. And your specialty was applying insulation

8 materials?

9 MR. CIFALDI: His or the company’s?

10 Q. The company’s.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you read that

13 question back, please.

14 (Record read)

16 Q. And you would be hired by somebody to do

17 insulation work based on your familiarity and

18 ability to install and apply insulation materials?

19 MR. FENTON: Objection.

20 Q. Is that correct?

21 A. And price.

22 Q. And price.

23 MR. CIFALDI: And again, the company?

24 MR. McGUIRE: The company, I think we have

25 been talking about it.

339

1 MR. CIFALDI: I want to make sure. You

2 know what happens at trial somebody will pick out one

3 sentence and read it and the jury can get

4 confused. We wouldn’t want that to ever happen.

5 Q. Is it fair to say, Mr. Scherer, that

6 Robert A. Keasbey was responsible for the safety of

7 its employees when they were out working on a job?

8 MR. CIFALDI: If you have knowledge about

9 safety practices of the company.

10 A. We were required in later years, any way,

11 to obey all the OSHA regulations. I would say yes,

12 we looked after the safety of the men on the job.

13 Q. Certainly before there were any formal

14 OSHA regulations Robert A. Keasbey would have a

15 responsibility for the safety of the employees. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is it fair to say Robert A. Keasbey

19 would be responsible for taking steps to protect its

20 employees and others who might be at risk from any

21 work that Robert A. Keasbey was doing on a job?

22 A. As far as what?

23 Q. Asa far as any risk that might be

24 presented on a job.

25 A. You mean like equipment falling off of a

340

1 scaffold, yes.

2 Q. How about protecting its employees or

3 anyone else who might be in proximity to exposure to

4 asbestos products?

5 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

6 compound form of the question. It asks for two

7 things. Maybe you can break it down.

8 MR. FENTON: Objection.

9 Q. Did Robert A. Keasbey have

10 responsibilities to protect its employees from

11 hazards known about asbestos-containing products?

12 MR. FENTON: Objection.

13 A. Hazards known about them?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. That we knew about? We didn’t know about

16 it.

17 Q. When did you first know about them?

18 A. Early ’70s. Maybe in the late ’70s.

19 Q. Prior to that as far as you know no one at

20 Keasbey had any knowledge?

21 A. Asbestos was the miracle fiber.

22 Q. No one from the asbestos workers union

23 ever told you otherwise prior to that point?

24 A. Not to my knowledge.

25 Q. What did Keasbey do in order to protect

341

1 its employees or others from asbestos risk once they

2 knew about the hazard?

3 MR. FENTON: Objection.

4 A. We stopped using it.

5 Q. You told me you did some, I think, removal

6 work. Is that what Robert A. Keasbey did?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would that removal work involve removal of

9 asbestos?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you start doing that?

12 A. Sometime after. I don’t really know.

13 Late ’70s. During the ’70s.

14 Q. What procedures would you follow to ensure

15 the safety of people in the area while you were

16 doing that?

17 A. Full OSHA regulations. Seal off the area,

18 completely duct tape everything so it is absolutely

19 air tight, put a negative pressure In there to make

20 sure that none of the asbestos fibers escape, have a

21 double set-up to go into the area where you had a

22 place for the men to go in to take all their clothes

23 off and go into the next part, put on white suits,

24 paper suits, masks and, you know, personal air

25 breathers, hats, gloves, things to go over their

342

1 shoes and then we would go in and everything had to

2 be wet down, scraped off, put in bags, sealed and

3 you had the opposite thing when you went out, take

4 your suit off, put all that in the junk pile, go put

5 your street clothes on and leave.

6 Q. You said that after OSHA came into effect

7 Keasbey would comply with all of the safety

8 requirements of that regulation, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. To your knowledge it was the

11 responsibility of Keasbey to assure that its

12 employees abided by OSHA safety regulations with

13 regard to asbestos, if they were working on a job?

14 MR. CIFALDI: I’m going to object to the

15 form of the question. I don’t know if he is

16 authorized to answer on behalf of the company. He

17 can certainly answer in his ability, if he had any

18 such responsibilities.

19 A. I think I answered it before any way. We

20 were not only responsible to be able to see that was

21 done. The union insisted it was done and every

22 member that had anything to the with the field from

23 myself the labor supervisors had to go to the union

24 school and go through the courses and go through

25 this entire procedure and do it at least one time

343

1 Then, if after you went through this course, and any

2 of your men were caught removing asbestos without

3 going through the proper procedures, they stop the

4 work and everybody in the company would have to go

5 through it a second time before the union would

6 allow you to remove it.

7 Q. When Keasbey was hired by a company to do

8 an insulation job, is it fair to say that the person

9 who hired Keasbey would rely on them to know how to

10 use the insulation and work with it and apply it?

11 MR. FENTON: Objection.

12 A. When we were hired to do an insulation

13 job?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. McGUIRE: Nothing further.

17 MR. CIFALDI: Seeing no further questions,

18 we are concluded.

19 (The deposition is concluded.)

344

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

3 I, MARC BRODY, Notary Public and

4 Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State

5 of New Jersey, do hereby certify that prior

6 to the commencement of the examination

7 FRANK SCHERER

8 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth,

9 the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the

11 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript

12 of the testimony as taken stenographically

13 by and before me at the time, place and on

14 the date hereinbefore set forth.

15 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither

16 a relative of nor employee nor attorney nor

17 counsel for any of the parties to this

18 action, and that I am neither a relative

19 nor employee of such attorney or counsel,

20 and that I am not financially interested in

21 the action.

23 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey

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Robert Keasbey Asbestos Installation Part 2

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