There is little dispute that Sheetmetal workers are at a significant risk for developing mesothelioma because of their exposure to asbestos while working in the construction trade. The following is an excerpt of the deposition of Michael Gerding detailing some of the exposures that a sheetmetal worker commonly encounters. Michael worked closely with his father Augusts Gerding who died from mesothelioma. Michael loved his father dearly and wanted to see justice done in the name of his beloved father.
So is it correct then, Mr. Gerding,
25 that your dad worked at Folander Sheet Metal
32
1 from about 1963 until 1994 and he retired
2 because of that injury to his knee?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your dad worked anyplace else
5 doing anything after he stopped working at
6 Folander Sheet Metal?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did he go on any kind of
9 disability; do you know?
10 A. No.
11 Q. He didnt file for social security
12 disability or anything like that?
13 A. I dont know.
14 Q. Okay. Do you know what his sources
15 of income were after he left his work at
16 Folander Sheet Metal in 1994?
17 A. Savings and investments.
18 Q. Was he entitled to receive and did
19 he receive any pension from any source?
20 A. Union.
21 Q. And the union paid him a monthly
22 benefit as best you know?
23 A. I dont know what his source of
24 income was aside from his savings and his
25 investments, but I know latter years, 59 years
33
1 old I believe or 59 and a half he entitled to a
2 pension. And, also, when he left the union he
3 had a very large annuity due him. I know he
4 had his time in, and I believe that was a
5 couple hundred thousand dollars that he
6 received. Then he just cashed in his annuity.
7 Q. Okay. Do you have any personnel
8 knowledge of the nature of the work your father
9 did when he worked at Hemminger Company from
10 1954 to 1961?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever go, now I know that
13 you were born in 53 you told us, certainly
14 during the early years you would have been too
15 young. Did you ever go to any job site, that
16 you can remember, during the time that your
17 father worked at Hemminger & Company?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any information about
20 the nature of any products that he would have
21 used in doing his work for Hemminger and
22 company?
23 A. No, I wouldnt know. I was never
24 there.
25 Q. Okay. Lets move on then to the
34
1 time period when he worked at Folander Sheet
2 Metal beginning in 1963. Mr. Balsamo has
3 testified in this case that John Folander had
4 also been an employee of Hemminger; is that
5 your understanding?
6 A. I read it, yes.
7 Q. Do you know that before you read it
8 in the deposition transcript?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know what your fathers job
11 title was when he worked at Folander Sheet
12 Metal Company?
13 MS. PLACITELLA: At what time?
14 MR. SUSS: When he first started.
15 THE WITNESS: I think youd have to
16 call it the everything title.
17 Q. And –
18 A. Everything meant that it was a very
19 small company, and my father wore many hats.
20 He made the sheet metal. He put the sheet
21 metal together. He set up the equipment in the
22 shop, many hats.
23 Q. And youre talking to the best of
24 your knowledge when he first went to work for
25 Folander Sheet Metal?
35
1 A. On a continuing basis.
2 Q. When you say that it was a small
3 company, can you tell me the number of
4 employees –
5 A. No.
6 Q. — that it had?
7 A. No, Im sorry. I should have
8 waited.
9 Q. Thats quite all right. Before we
10 get into a little more detail about your dads
11 work at Folander Sheet Metal Company, Id like
12 to go back to something that you told us about
13 a little while ago; and that is that you
14 indicated that you joined Sheet Metal Local 10
15 when you were 16 and a half; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. And did you remain a member of the
18 local?
19 A. Yes, I did, until 1973 I believe it
20 was. Thats when the gas crises hit, and,
21 basically, Local 10 moved to Florida. And
22 people who stayed here from Local 10 were
23 absorbed into Local 25.
24 Q. Now, you indicated I believe you
25 graduated from high school at 16 and a half?
36
1 A. I graduated at 17.
2 Q. At 17 and what year was that, sir?
3 A. 1971.
4 Q. And had you been a member of the
5 Sheet Metal Local before you graduated from
6 high school?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you would have joined the Local
9 10 at some point in 1971; is that correct?
10 A. Thats correct. But thats not
11 when I started working for John Folander.
12 Q. Well, were going to talk about
13 that in just a minute. We will get to that.
14 And is it correct that you remained a member of
15 the local from 1971 until 1973?
16 A. Thats correct.
17 Q. Did you ever become a member of
18 that sheet medical local or any other sheet
19 metal local after 1973?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you first became a member of
22 the local in 1971, did you go out and do jobs
23 assigned out from the local?
24 A. No. I worked at the shop.
25 Q. And when you say you worked the
37
1 shop, what shop was that?
2 A. Folander Sheet Metal.
3 Q. And when did you begin working at
4 Folander Sheet Metal?
5 A. Summer of seventh grade, 1966.
6 Q. And did you work at Folander Sheet
7 Metal through that summer?
8 A. Every summer, every year through
9 grade school from seventh grade through high
10 school and a heck of a lot of Saturdays during
11 the year to get an extra $4 or $5 an hour in my
12 pocket so I can go on dates and have things to
13 do. Money is kind of important to teenagers.
14 Q. When you first began your work in
15 the seventh grade for Folander, did you work in
16 the field or in their shop?
17 A. Shop.
18 Q. And where was their shop located?
19 A. 10 Fairfield Avenue, West
20 Caldwell.
21 Q. In the following summers, did you
22 continue to work in the shop?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was there ever an occasion that you
25 went out into the field as an employee of
38
1 Folander?
2 A. Yes. Once I graduated high school
3 and I had a drivers license and all that, I
4 worked exclusively in the field.
5 Q. At time that you –
6 A. Id like to say something too.
7 Please excuse me.
8 MS. PLACITELLA: Are you trying to
9 clarify an answer?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Im sorry, Im
11 clarifying an answer. There were many
12 times during my high school days, when I
13 had no drivers license and my dad would
14 work almost every Saturday, there were
15 many Saturdays I would go to work with my
16 father. Even though I was not a member of
17 the local, to be a gofer, a doer, a get me
18 this, and, once again, thats alluding to
19 teenagers needing money, I dont know if
20 that quantifies as field work; but I was
21 in the field on many Saturdays.
22 Q. Well, well talk about that in a
23 little more detail, okay? Thank you, Mr.
24 Gerding. Now, at the time that you began to
25 work for Mr. Folander, your dad was already
39
1 working there; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And during that time when you began
4 working there, did your dad, as far as you know
5 have a particular job title?
6 A. As I answered before, my father did
7 everything in that shop and he taught me to do
8 everything in that shop. You have to remember
9 its a small company. Everybody did
10 everything, and in the union, you have to be
11 qualified to do everything.
12 Q. That first summer you indicated you
13 worked exclusively in the shop of Folander
14 until you were able to drive?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Where did your –
17 MS. PLACITELLA: With
18 clarification. He did say that on
19 Saturdays hed go with his dad.
20 Q. Well, excluding Saturdays, which
21 were going to talk about separately, where did
22 your father work during those summer months?
23 A. In the shop.
24 Q. Did your dad do any work in the
25 field?
40
1 A. No, exclusively shop at that time.
2 Q. And what kind of work did your dad
3 do in the shop for Folander Sheet Metal Company
4 during the those summers when you were also
5 working there?
6 A. Whatever the job required. If he
7 had to weld, he welded. If he had to run the
8 brake, he ran brake. If he had to the shear
9 work, shear work. If he had to do layout, he
10 did layout. If he needed things cut, he would
11 cut them. If he had to do cleanup, if his shop
12 was a little slow, he cleaned up.
13 Q. Now, youve used some terms that
14 Im not sure I understand. So let me ask you
15 some follow-up questions. When you say that he
16 ran the brake, what does that mean?
17 A. A brake is an instrument to bend
18 sheet metal so you can make it square or
19 whatever transition piece is necessary so it
20 can be put into the field.
21 Q. And youve indicated that there was
22 share work, what is –
23 A. Shear work.
24 Q. Oh, shear work, I apologize.
25 A. S-h-e-a-r.
41
1 Q. And can you just describe for us
2 what shear work is?
3 A. Sheet metal comes in 4-by-8, you
4 cut it up to the sizes necessary to make a
5 6-by-6 piece, the transition squared around
6 whatever necessary.
7 Q. You also used the verb cut and as a
8 separate activity, was cutting something
9 different than shear work?
10 A. Yes, because a lot of times we
11 would have this stuff called Certainteen
12 (sic). It was kind of a heavy pipe, and we had
13 tried cutting it many different ways, and it
14 was hard to work with. And sometimes youd get
15 three or four pieces and they had to be cut a
16 certain way it was a heat application. So he
17 would cut it up and use it, dusty stuff, very
18 bad stuff. I found out much late. And I may
19 say also cutting up the insulation necessary
20 for ductwork cause sometimes the air
21 conditioning lines, you know, return lines keep
22 the air cool. It saves money, bills.
23 Q. Were going to return to some of
24 things in just a minute. There was another
25 activity that you mentioned earlier and that
42
1 had to do with layout. What was involved in
2 layout? What was that task?
3 A. Take a flat piece of metal, you
4 would set your tabs, lay out for our Pittsburg
5 seam, or your standing seam, whatever
6 necessary. Then you make your cuts. And when
7 the metals folded up, it goes together like a
8 box. Its kind of like wrapping a Christmas
9 present. You lay out the paper though.
10 Q. Okay. And what was being laid
11 out? What was the material that was being
12 laid?
13 A. Sheet metal.
14 Q. And when you talked about the shear
15 work before, that was cutting sheet metal too?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And running the brake also, that
18 was bending sheet metal, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Lets talk a little bit about that
21 heavy pipe that you described just a moment
22 ago. Can you give me a better description of
23 its shape?
24 A. Well, its round. Sometimes it
25 came in flat sheets, but mostly it was round.
43
1 It came in 2 inch, 4 inch, 6 inch; usually
2 6-foot long sections. Very brittle. It
3 cracked very easy. Very hard to work with.
4 Very difficult to cut. Lots of different
5 things we tried to cut it.
6 Q. What would necessitate it having to
7 be cut, Mr. Gerding?
8 A. The field requirements.
9 Q. And how would those working in the
10 shop know what the field requirements were?
11 A. Job supervisor at that time would
12 call the shop and tell them what he needed and
13 then ship them in the truck to the job.
14 Q. How would this pipe that youve
15 described get delivered to the Folander shop?
16 A. From the vendor that we would buy
17 it from. There was many vendors that came into
18 the place.
19 Q. Do you know the vendor that sold
20 that particular product to Folander?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know how it was actually
23 delivered to the shop?
24 A. It was delivered on a truck by
25 whoever delivered it. Theres many different
44
1 vendors that delivered a lot of different
2 products.
3 Q. What kind of truck, if you know,
4 was it delivered?
5 A. Cube truck. Usually diesel
6 engine. Sometimes international. Sometimes
7 Ford. Some of the trucks were black with white
8 lettering. Theres a lot of trucks that I
9 unloaded that I remember the companys names.
10 Im sure youre going to ask me that eventually
11 so Im just waiting for that, but it was a
12 constant thing. It was a shop.
13 If you got a big job, you might
14 have 20 guys in the shop working. If you
15 didnt have a big job, guys go back down to the
16 hall and wait for work elsewhere. There might
17 be three guys in the shop working. And Im
18 talking about when I was young working in the
19 summers. Folander did become very successful,
20 and they did get much bigger jobs.
21 MS. PLACITELLA: Just hold on one
22 second.
23 Q. The pipe that was delivered on the
24 trucks, was it packaged in any way?
25 A. No.
45
1 Q. Were these just pieces of pipe that
2 were delivered on the trucks?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were they attached together in any
5 way to keep them from rolling or being jostled
6 on the truck?
7 A. Usually, no. It was, as matter of
8 fact, no. It was just lay it on wood and
9 stacked the right way in the truck.
10 Q. And you indicated that one of the
11 tasks that you would perform on occasion would
12 be to unload that pipe from the trucks?
13 A. Correct. If we got ten pieces, we
14 got ten pieces. You would unload them all.
15 Q. And what would be the maximum
16 number of pieces that you can recall being
17 delivered to the shop at any time during the
18 period that you were working there?
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. Can
20 you clarify what pipe youre talking
21 about?
22 MR. SUSS: Were talking about that
23 heavy pipe that came in the 6-foot
24 sections that Mr. Gerding I think have
25 been talking about.
46
1 Q. You understood that my questions
2 where so far been addressing that product?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Good. So the question is, what was
5 the largest delivery of that product that you
6 can recall being delivered at any one time?
7 A. I couldnt tell you a number of
8 pieces, but it was a two-man men job of
9 off-load it and sometimes it would be a big
10 pile, a pile as big as this table inside the
11 truck. And it would, then it would be bound
12 together with, I dont know, it was like a
13 metal strapping you know. You couldnt just
14 cut it cause all the pipe would roll off and
15 crack. So you had to get a piece of the metal
16 and loosen it up and go from there.
17 Q. And when you unloaded the truck,
18 where would you put this pipe product after it
19 was off-loaded?
20 A. In the rack.
21 Q. And where was that rack located?
22 A. A small area that we referred to as
23 the loading dock.
24 Q. Was that inside or outside?
25 A. Inside.
47
1 Q. And it was inside the Folander
2 building?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you describe for us, please,
5 what the Folander building looked like when you
6 working there?
7 A. A dump. It was an old corner.
8 Some kind of silo, two silos. First time I
9 went there I was ashamed. I said, Dad, you
10 work here? Seriously, it was a dump.
11 Q. Can you give us some idea of the
12 size of that dump?
13 A. Forty feet, 50 feet wide; 80 feet
14 long. The loading duct had to be added on. It
15 was relatively modern, I guess.
16 Q. You talked about silos, were those
17 like barn silos? Thats what I pictured in my
18 head.
19 A. You got it.
20 Q. And where were the silos located
21 with regards — to?
22 A. The exact opposite end of the
23 building.
24 Q. And the building itself, was it
25 separated by any walls?
48
1 A. No. You can see right through the
2 place. It was wide open. It was like looking
3 out that window.
4 Q. And when you say looking out that
5 window, were looking out these lovely picture
6 windows in this hotel here; is that correct?
7 A. They are nice.
8 Q. Were there windows in the dump?
9 A. Yeah. Its kind of funny. It
10 might be a piece of Plexiglas with a piece of
11 glass, with a piece of glass with a wire
12 through it. And they tilt it this way, and
13 when the wind blew, if the lock wasnt closed,
14 it would flap and break. Then I got to fix
15 em.
16 Q. Where were the windows located?
17 A. On opposite walls, parallel walls.
18 Q. And would that have been on the
19 width?
20 A. The runway, the width.
21 Q. Were there any windows along the
22 length of the building?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. Do you remember the number of
25 windows there were on each side of the
49
1 building?
2 A. The ones that worked? You know,
3 when a window blew up too many times, a welder
4 come over to make sure it didnt open anymore
5 you know so. And in the summer you wished the
6 welder didnt do that but — ten windows on
7 each side, I guess, you know.
8 Q. How many stories was the building?
9 A. Five shops. The silos were I think
10 maybe more than two stories. Im not sure. I
11 was just one level. No basement.
12 Q. Can you give us an idea of how high
13 the ceilings were? Were the ceilings high?
14 A. At that time, I can jump up and
15 touch it.
16 Q. Okay. And was that the shape of
17 ceiling from one end of the building to
18 another?
19 A. See, yes, but youve got to
20 remember too, storage was a major issue you
21 know. I remember working a couple of Saturdays
22 when my dad would just through up a whole bunch
23 of Plywood, and the next thing I know there was
24 a door cut in it and the ceiling; and that was
25 the storage area so.
50
1 Q. Going back to the pipe product, do
2 you know who supplied that pipe product to
3 Folander Sheet Metal?
4 MS. PLACITELLA: Youve asked that,
5 counsel.
6 A. No, I dont know.
7 Q. Do you know who manufactured the
8 pipe product?
9 A. One was Ductmate and one was
10 Duradyne (sic) I believe. Duradyne Im
11 positive. Ductmate, see, Ductmate was less
12 expensive so we usually bought Ductmate.
13 Q. And, once again, were still
14 talking about that round heavy pipe; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did that particular product come
18 in different diameters, if you know?
19 A. Yes. It came in different sizes,
20 different diameters, but I dont know how many
21 different sizes.
22 Q. Do you have any specific
23 recollection of the actual physical
24 measurements of the pipe product weve been
25 talking about other than the fact that you told
51
1 us it came in 6-foot lengths?
2 A. Ill say 4-inch and 6-inch, maybe
3 some two sometimes, but, you know, I dont know
4 every variety.
5 Q. What would be the necessity of that
6 pipe product having to be cut, or did it have
7 to be cut?
8 A. Yes, it had to be cut on a regular
9 basis. It wasnt in the shop all the time, but
10 a lot of times it was. And it always had to be
11 cut. What youre going to do with 6 feet?
12 Q. I dont know the business at all,
13 Mr. Gerding so thats the reason I am asking.
14 Do you know the use of that particular product?
15 A. High temperature I was told. It
16 took temperature. Sometimes you could bury it
17 for a reason or two. I guess it took being
18 underground very well also. I dont know all
19 the applications.
20 Q. Is it your understanding that that
21 particular product was something that would be
22 used in underground applications as well as
23 above ground applications?
24 A. It is my understanding that it was
25 multipurpose.
52
1 Q. Did you ever see that product
2 installed in the field?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when would that have been, what
5 period of time?
6 A. When I went into the field.
7 Q. And that would have been after
8 1973?
9 A. No. I went in the field once I got
10 my license in 1971.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: Counsel, lets
13 take a break.
14 MR. SUSS: Sure.
15 MS. PLACITELLA: Lets take a
16 five-minute break.
17 (Whereupon a brief recess is
18 taken.)
19 BY MR. SUSS:
20 Q. Mr. Gerding, back on the record.
21 Before we took our break you made reference to
22 the fact that this pipe that we have been
23 talking about had to be cut, and my question to
24 you is why would it have to be cut from its 6-
25 foot length to be made smaller, if you know?
53
1 A. You just need different sizes to
2 complete different tasks on a job. And its
3 like if you go to Home Depot, you by an
4 8-foot-2 by a four, you dont use the whole
5 length, youve cut it per need.
6 Q. Is the cutting of this particular
7 product something that you do in the Folander
8 Sheet Metal shop?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it something that your father
11 did in the Folander Sheet Metal?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you able to tell me when the
14 first was that you ever saw your father cut one
15 of these pipes that weve been talking about?
16 A. When he taught me how to cut it.
17 Ill say when I first started working there
18 full summers, eight 1967.
19 Q. And are you able to tell me when
20 the last time it was that you ever observed
21 your father cut such a product?
22 A. Probably right before Tom
23 Belamsambo came to the shop.
24 Q. And are you able to give us a time
25 period when that was?
54
1 A. I dont remember when Tom started.
2 In here it says when he started.
3 Q. My own notes indicate that Mr.
4 Balsamo testified that he started at Folander
5 in 1968 or 1969. Does that sound correct to
6 you?
7 A. It sounds about right. I couldnt
8 put my life on it, but it sounds about right.
9 Q. And would that have been the last
10 time then that you observed your father cutting
11 that pipe? That wouldnt have been the last
12 either?
13 A. I saw him cut in field but after
14 that he wasnt really in the shop very often to
15 do that type of work. In the field you cut
16 whatever you — sometimes things are wrong and
17 you have to cut them.
18 Q. Well talk about the field work in
19 a little bit. Right now lets direct our
20 attention to the work that was done in the
21 Folander Sheet Metal shop, okay?
22 A. I understand.
23 Q. Very good. What was the process by
24 which this particular product was cut?
25 A. You would take it out of the rack,
55
1 pour it on the ground on a little thing that
2 was built — usually a piece of angle iron
3 shaped like that so the would pipe sit on it.
4 Take a Magic Marker usually or a marking
5 crayon, mark it all the way around.
6 You take a grinder, sometimes youd
7 use a circular saw, but let me tell you, it ate
8 blades like crazy, expensive blades. And you
9 take the grinder and youd cut it and turn it
10 and cut it and turn it and cut it and turn it
11 until you succeeded in making the cut you
12 wanted. It was a Carborundum blade that came
13 that was thin like for a chop saw?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. That was the best. They wore out
16 quick, but then they came out with these real
17 good blades that lasted a long time.
18 Q. What kind of tools would those
19 blades go into?
20 A. Chop saw.
21 Q. The chop saw.
22 A. Its an actual saw like this, any
23 homeowner can go buy one now and it would just,
24 its like the guillotine.
25 Q. How long would it take to cut one
56
1 of these pieces of pipe?
2 A. You cut it slow. If you cut it too
3 fast, the blade would explode or to the piece
4 would break. Whenever you cut anything you
5 always took your time and you cut slow. This
6 way you got maximum life out of the blade and
7 the product.
8 Q. Are you able to give me your best
9 estimate of the amount of time it would take to
10 do such a cut?
11 A. I dont want to guess.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Different people have different
14 ways. If you had — I dont know. I dont
15 want to guess.
16 Q. Would it have been something that
17 would have taken in excess of a minute to
18 perform the entire cut?
19 A. Now, youre asking me to guess.
20 Q. Well, Im not. Im asking you if
21 you can give me an estimate. If you cant give
22 me an estimate, then thats fine. Well move
23 on.
24 A. When I would cut pieces myself, I
25 would say it probably took about, you know, a
57
1 half a minute to cut through it. And then it
2 would take another half minute to see anything
3 because the dust was insane. I mean youve
4 been a lawyer your whole life.
5 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Objection. General
6 objection on the record to counsel
7 whispering to her client during
8 deposition.
9 Q. Had you finished your answer, sir?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. You also mentioned that another
12 tool that you used to cut this particular
13 product was a circular saw; is that correct?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No?
16 A. I said a reciprocating saw.
17 Q. Im sorry. I misheard you. Can
18 you describe what a reciprocating saw is?
19 A. Yes. Its a saw, approximately,
20 this long.
21 (Indicating.)
22 Q. About a foot and a half, youre
23 showing saying; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. It has a blade on the ends
25 and it reciprocates. It goes in and out, back
58
1 and forth.
2 Q. Is that a power saw, or is that
3 also a hand?
4 A. Thats an electric saw.
5 Q. When this cutting was done, was the
6 electric saw used more often than the other saw
7 youve described?
8 A. Speaking in the shop, the
9 Carborundum blades were the most accurate way
10 to cut this material.
11 Q. And what kind of, which of the
12 tools used Carborundum blades?
13 A. A chop saw.
14 Q. And was that a saw that was a power
15 saw, or was it only a hand operated tool?
16 A. Its an electric saw. You manually
17 apply pressure to cut with it.
18 Q. On how many occasions would you
19 have cut this particular product that weve
20 talked about in the Folander shop?
21 A. I couldnt guess but I wasnt the
22 only one cutting. If it was part of my duties
23 that day, thats what I would do.
24 Q. Are you able to estimate for us the
25 frequency that that particular product would
59
1 have to be cut in the shop?
2 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You
3 can answer the question, if you can.
4 THE WITNESS: I dont know how many
5 times. Some jobs required a lot and then
6 you wouldnt see it in the shop for a
7 month. And then there it would be again.
8 Q. Would the cutting of the product
9 that youve described be something that would
10 be done inside the shop or outside the shop?
11 A. Inside the shop.
12 Q. Is there a reason that the cutting
13 would be done inside the shop as opposed to
14 outside the shop since you described it as
15 being a dusty process?
16 A. The material is heavy. You dont
17 carry heavy material outside to cut it. It
18 just kills time and energy plus transporting
19 the piece outside you can break it.
20 Q. After the pipe was cut, what would
21 be done with it?
22 A. Put on a Folander truck and shipped
23 out to the job with whatever else was necessary
24 for that order for that job.
25 Q. This pipe product that you talk
60
1 about, what size would be cut down to if you
2 were cutting it down?
3 A. It varies. I could not tell you
4 the exact sizes. Its always different.
5 Whatever the job requirements were.
6 Q. Would you know what the job
7 requirements were at the time that you were
8 cutting the product?
9 A. I wasnt privileged information
10 like that. I wasnt on the job. I was in the
11 shop.
12 Q. So is it correct to say you
13 wouldnt know what use the product was going to
14 be put to in the field; is that correct?
15 A. At that time, correct.
16 Q. You also talked about a different
17 product, a flat sheet product, could you
18 describe that for us in a little more detail?
19 A. I didnt do a lot work with that.
20 It just, it looked like the pipe. It was
21 sheets, various sizes. And I never really
22 worked with it. It was too brittle. They
23 would get a mechanic. I was an apprentice.
24 Q. Did you ever see your father
25 working with that product?
61
1 A. Handling it, moving it around. I
2 saw him cut it once or twice, but after that,
3 no.
4 Q. Are you able to give us your best
5 estimate of the size of these sheets?
6 A. As I said, it varied. It could be
7 two-by-three; two-by-four. The smaller the
8 sheet, the easier it is to handle because its
9 not like you can pick it up and carry — it
10 was, you know, it broke easy. It broke very
11 easy.
12 Q. Are you able to tell us the
13 thickness of the sheet, your estimate?
14 A. It would be quarter inch. It would
15 be three-eighths. It would be half inch. It
16 would — like I said, I didnt personally work
17 with it, so I am giving you a guess on that
18 dimension.
19 Q. Is that a product that would also
20 be cut in the Folander shop?
21 A. I think they tried to order that
22 mostly to size because it was so brittle. I
23 saw people cutting it, but I never really — I
24 dont think it was a uniform size. It was
25 uniform in shape. It was always square or
62
1 rectangular, but it was never jagged or round
2 or something like that.
3 Q. What color were the sheets?
4 A. They were like a light grey,
5 cream.
6 Q. And what color were the pipe?
7 A. The pipe was pretty much the same
8 color only the pipe was denser. The wall was
9 thicker. It led to a little darker color.
10 Q. Do you know, Mr. Gerding, whether
11 or not the 6-foot section of pipe that weve
12 talked about contained asbestos?
13 A. Not to my knowledge.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not the flat
15 sheets that weve talked about contained
16 asbestos?
17 A. No, I do not.
18 Q. During the time period that you
19 worked in the shop for Folander, did you
20 observe deliveries of different kinds of
21 products come to the shop?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you able to tell us, because
24 you alluded to earlier, the companies that
25 delivered product to the Folander shop during
63
1 the time that you worked there and your father
2 work there?
3 A. Yes. We had Central Jersey Supply,
4 Mooney Brothers, Elizabeth, American Hardware,
5 Roth, I believe was one. There were many
6 more. I am trying to remember. I know that
7 theyre listed in this thing, but. . .
8 Q. Well, why dont we refresh our
9 recollection since its going to come up at one
10 time or another. If you turn to part of the
11 answer to interrogatory I-6, there are a number
12 of companies listed under a heading of
13 supplier. Do you see that, Mr. Gerding?
14 A. I-6, okay, yes I do.
15 Q. Why dont you take a look at those
16 companies. Some of them youve already named.
17 Does looking at that list refresh your
18 recollection as to additional suppliers?
19 A. Most of them on there I recognize.
20 Some of them I do not.
21 Q. All right. Well, why dont we do
22 this, take a look at the list of suppliers and
23 tell me which you suppliers you recall making
24 deliveries to the Folander Sheet Metal shop.
25 A. There was one place we got out of
64
1 Manhattan where they delivered a lot of welding
2 supplies, welding blankets, gloves. They used
3 to give us the gloves for free. Manhattan, I
4 cant think of any others. It was just a
5 supplier out of Manhattan. They had a black
6 truck, red letters on the side and it curved.
7 Q. So this was a company that was
8 based in Manhattan to the best of your
9 recollection but you cant remember the name of
10 it; is that correct?
11 A. The first name is Manhattan without
12 a doubt.
13 Q. Okay. Well, lets take a look at
14 the list and lets do it this way, Mr.
15 Gerding. Do you remember a company called
16 Robert Keasbey –
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Supplying products to Folander?
19 A. Yes, I do cause I used to think it
20 was Keasbey, New Jersey.
21 Q. Do you remember a company called
22 York?
23 A. Yes, I do. Mooney Brothers, Ive
24 already named. Central Jersey Supply Ive
25 already named. Unless you want to ask the
65
1 question?
2 Q. No, no. This is fine. If we can
3 expedite, thats fine. Thats what Im looking
4 for.
5 A. State Insulation I remember.
6 Safeguard I remember, but Im not sure if it
7 was actually their own job sites. Raritan
8 Supply definitely I know. Elizabeth Industrial
9 Hardware, they were there a lot. American
10 Hardware was there a lot. Passaic Metal, they
11 might as well just lived with us. They always
12 were delivering lots of things, sheet metal,
13 gasket material. They delivered a lot of
14 Garlock stuff to us.
15 Q. Have you finished your answer?
16 A. (Indicating.)
17 Q. Okay. Lets talk a little bit
18 about these. Im going to go down the list of
19 the names in the order that weve talked about
20 them. You mention a company, Central Jersey
21 Supply, do you remember a period of time when
22 they delivered products to Folander?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you remember the first time you
25 ever saw Central Jersey making a delivery
66
1 Folander?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you remember the last time that
4 that company ever made a delivery to Folander?
5 A. No, I do not. And I think I know
6 where this is going. If youre going to ask me
7 every single –
8 MS. PLACITELLA: He has the right
9 to ask you questions.
10 THE WITNESS: Im sorry. Go ahead,
11 sir.
12 MS. PLACITELLA: See, Sebastian, I
13 didnt whisper. I said it right out
14 loud.
15 BY MR. SUSS:
16 Q. Can you tell us please, if you
17 recall, the product or products Central Jersey
18 delivered to Folander?
19 A. No. I was too busy unloading the
20 trucks. Just do it.
21 Q. And how did you know it was Central
22 Jersey that was making the deliveries?
23 A. It usually said so on the side of
24 the truck.
25 Q. And would you give me the same
67
1 answer if I were to ask you that same question
2 as each of these different suppliers that were
3 going to be talking about that there was some
4 designation on the truck?
5 A. Usually there was something on the
6 truck. It would be very rare to get something
7 delivered in a pickup or something like that.
8 I mean, usually it was, you know, sometimes you
9 would get to work in the mornings and there
10 would be a couple of truck sitting right
11 there. Youd have your coffee and a buttered
12 roll, and, you know, maybe waiting to be
13 off-loaded.
14 Q. Do you know whether Central Jersey
15 Supply delivered any asbestos-containing
16 products to Folander?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The next company you named was
19 Mooney Brothers as a supplier of products to
20 Folander. Do you remember the first time that
21 they ever made a delivery?
22 A. No, I do not.
23 Q. To you remember the last time you
24 ever saw them making a delivery?
25 A. No, I do not.
68
1 Q. Do you know whether or not Mooney
2 Brothers delivered any asbestos-containing
3 products to –
4 A. I wasnt aware of asbestos at
5 Folander at the time. So, no, I do not.
6 Q. Well, let me ask you this question,
7 do you recall the type of product or products
8 that Mooney Brothers delivered?
9 A. No, I do not.
10 Q. Are you able to tell us from your
11 point of your knowledge today whether or not
12 you believe Mooney Brothers delivered any
13 asbestos-containing products to Folander?
14 A. Most suppliers delivered just about
15 every product we had in shop. There was no one
16 specific supplier that delivered one specific
17 item.
18 MR. DENARO: Move to strike as
19 nonresponsive.
20 MS. PLACITELLA: This is a
21 discovery deposition, counsel.
22 MR. DENARO: I understand. Lets
23 not waste anytime.
24 BY MR. SUSS:
25 Q. Lets talk a little about that last
69
1 answer. Youve indicated you cant tell me
2 from any specific recollection what Mooney
3 Brothers delivered to Folander; is that
4 correct?
5 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.
6 MR. SUSS: And your objection, as I
7 understand it from past history, Ms.
8 Placitella, is that you dont like the use
9 of the word specific; is that correct?
10 MS. PLACITELLA: Its specific
11 recollection together.
12 MR. SUSS: Im going to give you a
13 continuing objection –
14 MS. PLACITELLA: To my objection?
15 MR. SUSS: To my usage of that
16 phrase so we can go forward.
17 BY MR. SUSS:
18 Q. Do you have a specific recollection
19 of any particular product or products delivered
20 to Folander by Mooney Brothers?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. Okay. Youve indicated that you
23 remember a company named Elizabeth Industrial
24 making deliveries to the Folander Sheet Metal
25 shop, and once again, I know this is tedious;
70
1 do you remember the first time you ever saw
2 delivery –
3 A. No, I do not.
4 Q. Do you remember the last you ever
5 saw delivery from Elizabeth Industrial
6 Hardware?
7 A. No, I do not, sir.
8 Q. Are you able to tell me,
9 specifically, any particular product or product
10 type that Elizabeth Industrial delivered to the
11 Folander shop?
12 A. A lot of gasket material. A lot of
13 caulking, Ductmate.
14 Q. The gasket material that youve
15 indicated was delivered by Elizabeth
16 Industrial, was there a particular manufactured
17 of that gasket material that they delivered?
18 A. I believe it was Garlock. Garlock
19 made an awful lot of gasket material that we
20 received. Im not positive but I want to say
21 Garlock.
22 Q. The Garlock gaskets that youve
23 mentioned, can you describe those gaskets for
24 us?
25 A. There was a few different type of
71
1 gaskets that they made. It was wire or ripe,
2 and they had the stuff they used to call it
3 like gaskets that you would mount on ductwork
4 on the side to insulate against the heat so
5 heat wouldnt travel to the angle iron that
6 supported it. Its kind of like a square. As
7 a matter of fact, if you rolled it out, it came
8 in a roll, it almost looked like your ladder; a
9 ladder you can climb.
10 Q. Were there any other type gaskets
11 that you recall with the Garlock name?
12 A. There was gasket material stuff
13 that was delivered in the drum, and you would
14 seal ductwork with it. Sometimes you would
15 take it and literally fill up a tube with a
16 pump that was on the drum and then you would
17 put in the caulking gun, and you would fill a
18 box top with that and then when you sealed it,
19 it was an airtight seal heat resistent. That
20 was kind of like a liquid material.
21 Q. Well, lets stick, if we can first
22 to gasket material. Is the material you just
23 described something you considered to be a
24 gasket material?
25 A. It is gasket material, sir.
72
1 Q. Okay. And what would that been used
2 for, if you know?
3 A. High temperature airtights.
4 Sometimes just airtight, depending on the
5 color.
6 Q. And is it your understanding that
7 product was also a Garlock gasket material?
8 A. No. That was just a black drum
9 with a orange — a drum is usually — sir, have
10 youve ever seen a 55-gallon drum? Its got
11 two rings, and its black on top, black on the
12 bottom, orange in the middle. Usually, it
13 would — not even a label on it. Its just,
14 just a hand pump.
15 Q. Is that a product that would have
16 been delivered to Folander by Elizabeth
17 Industrial, to the best of your recollection?
18 A. We got it from Elizabeth and I
19 believe we also got it from American Hardware,
20 and, I think Central Jersey Supply. It
21 depended who gave us the best price because I
22 understood it to be a very expensive thing.
23 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did
24 that product that came in the black drum
25 contained asbestos?
73
1 MR. ARNO: Objection.
2 Q. You can answer.
3 A. Oh, he didnt say I could answer.
4 Q. Well, he doesnt have to say it.
5 He can object.
6 A. To best of my knowledge, I dont
7 know.
8 Q. What about the Garlock gasket that
9 you described as a wire rope, do you believe
10 that contained asbestos?
11 MR. ARNO: Objection.
12 A. I dont know.
13 Q. And the gasket material that came
14 in the roll that youve talked to us about, do
15 you believe that product contained asbestos.
16 MR. ARNO: Objection.
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. The gasket material that came in
19 the roll, was that a product that would have to
20 be cut?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was it something that was cut in
23 the shop?
24 A. No, not really. It was sent to the
25 field cause the field knew the size they
74
1 needed.
2 Q. You indicated that another supplier
3 was American Hardware, and youve told us that
4 you believe American Hardware also supplied the
5 gasket material that came in the black drum.
6 Is there any other kind of product that you
7 recall American Hardware supplying to Folander?
8 A. Nuts, bolts, screws, text screws,
9 flat stock, angle iron. Simple things too like
10 layout, duct tape, 3M products, Karnak. There
11 was roofing material used for flashing.
12 Benjamin Foster black cat roofing material. We
13 used for doing roofing work when you had a vent
14 or an exhaust chute. You had to seal it all up
15 with that stuff. It was various products.
16 The biggest suppliers that we had,
17 though, like Central Jersey, Elizabeth, they
18 supplied lot of stuff. They were there the
19 most.
20 Q. You mentioned a phrase that was
21 called flat stock, what is flat stock?
22 A. Flat stock serves as a banding
23 banning material, approximately, an eighth of
24 an inch thick and about one inch wide. And as
25 you put up your ductwork, you needs hangers.
75
1 Its a good banding material. It usually comes
2 in eight-foot length. And you dont cut it in
3 the shop. You just sent it out to the job.
4 The men cut it to suit what ever sites they
5 need.
6 Q. Whats it made of? Is it a metal
7 medical product?
8 A. Its galvanized metal. Its just
9 like sheet metal galvanized.
10 Q. You mentioned that you recall
11 American Hardware delivering 3M products out to
12 the Folander shop. Were there specific types
13 of products that you recall?
14 A. Well, I dont know which particular
15 one they would deliver. They could be
16 delivering the same thing cause 3M is like,
17 they could be sending out duct tape as we
18 needed it or they could be sending out text
19 screws as we needed it. They could be sending
20 out gasket material as we needed it.
21 The expediter would call up, get
22 the best price. Theys say a new job was
23 coming in a month, and they could lay out the
24 job. They could find the least expensive
25 supplier and get the best price. If it was a
76
1 need, they just call up the first guy they knew
2 that had it and get it delivered fast. And
3 just about everything went into the shop and
4 then to the job.
5 Q. Am I correct that you indicated
6 that the 3M products that were supplied include
7 gasket material?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What kind of ever gasket material
10 did 3M supplied?
11 A. Its actually a gasket aerosol
12 adhesive. When you put your insulation on the
13 ductwork, you would spray this stuff down
14 literally like as if you — here we go with
15 hair spray again — maybe you had hair spray
16 and you would spray it on the ductwork, and you
17 would take it and you would set your insulation
18 right on it. And then the brake would — fold
19 it up and the inside of the ductwork would be
20 insulated. And the adhesive sealer would hold
21 it in place. Aerosol cans, DAP, which was, DAP
22 is a product manufactured actually. But they
23 made all different types of sealers and
24 adhesives for putting ductwork together and
25 things.
77
1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did
2 aerosol adhesive material that came from 3M
3 contain asbestos?
4 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.
5 Q. You used the name a moment ago
6 Karnak as product that American Hardware
7 supplied. What kind of product Karnak
8 supplied? Can you describe that for us please?
9 A. Five-gallon pail full of roofing
10 material. It is a paste-like object with the
11 consistency of thick mayonnaise that you apply
12 with a trowel over an opening in a roof so you
13 can install your flashing on top of it and make
14 a water tight bonded seal that has a very long
15 life.
16 Q. When that material came into the
17 shop, would anything be done to it before it
18 would be shipped out to the field?
19 A. Right to the field. Theres no
20 reason to open it in the shop.
21 Q. And the description that youve
22 told us about its use, is that something that
23 you, yourself, did when you were working in the
24 field?
25 A. Yes.
78
1 Q. Is it something that you saw your
2 father do when he was working in the field?
3 A. He taught me.
4 Q. And youve indicated that it came
5 in a five-gallon pail, what was color of the
6 material in the pail?
7 A. Black.
8 Q. And I think you said it was applied
9 with a trowel, am I correct?
10 A. Thats correct.
11 Q. And the consistency of the product,
12 was it a wet product; a dry product? I mean –
13 A. It was wet.
14 Q. After it was applied in the manner
15 in which youve described, did anything else
16 have to be done to that product?
17 A. No, except breath, smell it. It
18 stunk.
19 Q. Are you able to describe what it
20 smelled like?
21 A. Not in the presence of ladies.
22 Q. All right. An unpleasant smell; is
23 that what youre intimating?
24 A. (Indicating.)
25 Q. Yes?
79
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You mentioned another product, sir,
3 Benjamin Foster black cat. Was that a roofing
4 product also?
5 A. Yes, it was. Un mistakable label.
6 Black cat right face, orange paper.
7 Q. Are you table to indicate for us
8 the weight of that pail?
9 A. No. Its heavy, but no.
10 Q. Is that a product that would get
11 brought into the shop at Folander but then
12 shipped out to the field for use –
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. — without having to be opened
15 within the shop; is that correct?
16 A. Correct. Unless Johns roof was
17 leaking, then you would put it on the roof and
18 go up there and fix the roof.
19 Q. Did you ever have occasion to fix
20 the roof –
21 A. Thats what jogged my memory, yes.
22 A couple of times we would have to go up there
23 and fixed the roof.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not your dad
25 had to go up on the roof –
80
1 A. Yes, Im sure he did because I know
2 a couple of times on Saturdays we would go up
3 there on the roof just to fix the roof.
4 Q. So you have a recollection of you
5 and your dads going up –
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 MS. PLACITELLA: Let him finish.
8 THE WITNESS: I have to wait. I
9 apologize.
10 Q. Thats okay. You have a
11 recollection of you and your dad going up on
12 the roof at the Folander Sheet Metal shop to
13 repair the roof there; is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Do you know which of the roofing
16 products you used to make that repair on the
17 occasions when you did that?
18 A. What we found in the shop. If
19 there was Karnak, we used Karnak. If there was
20 Benjamin Foster, we used Benjamin Foster.
21 Q. Understood. And my question is do
22 you, specifically, recall which of the roofing
23 products you and your father used when you made
24 any repair to the roof at the Folander shop?
25 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. You
81
1 can answer.
2 A. I believe I just stated that we
3 used both. And you want me to just say it so
4 that she can write it down? Benjamin Foster
5 and Karnak. So it wasnt one time we fixed the
6 roof.
7 Q. Tell me, you called it an orange
8 pail, what was the made of?
9 A. Metal.
10 Q. And you would have to pry off the
11 top of the metal pail; that correct?
12 A. Thats correct.
13 Q. And how would the Benjamin Foster
14 black Cat product be applied?
15 A. With a trowel.
16 Q. And what was the color of that
17 product?
18 A. I think dark brown. Again, forgive
19 me. I am color blind. Not bad but I dont see
20 shades as well. There are times Ill say, I
21 love these black pants. Ill find out theyre
22 dark blue, so excuse me, typical male.
23 Q. It was dark in color; is that what
24 youre telling me?
25 A. Dark.
82
1 Q. And was this product the wet or a
2 dry product?
3 A. Wet.
4 Q. And what would be the application,
5 the usage to that product?
6 A. It was a roofing product, sir,
7 dedicated to repairing roofs, watertight
8 process. I guess if you had a leak somewhere
9 due to rain, you can use it. Just about every
10 chimney a America has got some kind of flashing
11 on it, metal, because it needs to be sealed.
12 Q. And after applying this product
13 with the trowel, would anything else be done to
14 that product after it was applied?
15 A. Yes. Youd have to put tar paper
16 over it to create a bond. Theres also a
17 product by Celotex that we would use sometimes
18 because we — its a roofing product, and that
19 came in big sheets. But Ill let you ask your
20 questions.
21 Q. Lets finish talking about the
22 Benjamin Foster product. Do you remember the
23 first occasion when you used that product?
24 A. No, I do not.
25 Q. Is this product that you observed
83
1 your father using?
2 A. Yes. We worked together using it.
3 Q. Do you remember the first time that
4 your father used that product?
5 A. No, I do not.
6 Q. Do you remember the last time your
7 father used that product?
8 A. No, sir, I do not.
9 Q. Do you know whether or not the
10 Benjamin Foster black cat product that weve
11 talked about here contained asbestos?
12 A. No, I do not.
13 Q. One of the other products or
14 product manufacturers that you talked about was
15 DAP, and your testimony was that they made
16 sealers an adhesives; is that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Is that a product that would be
19 delivered to the Folander Sheet Metal shop?
20 A. Thats correct.
21 Q. What was the DAP sealer used for?
22 A. To seal ductwork, sir.
23 Q. And how would it be applied in
24 order to accomplish that task?
25 A. It would come in a tube. You would
84
1 put in a caulking gun, and with, you would
2 apply it. And then the piece would be
3 assembled.
4 Q. And after you applied it with the
5 caulking gun, would anything else have to be
6 done to the installation?
7 A. I dont understand.
8 Q. Well, after you put the sealer on,
9 was job completed or did you have to perform
10 something else to the sealer once it had been
11 applied?
12 A. You would have to assemble the
13 piece so that the actual seam that you wish to
14 seal would be an airtight seal. And then you
15 would take a hammer and close your Pittsburg
16 seam or you would take your tool and squeeze
17 your standing seam. And then you would clean
18 your tools and your hands because it just the
19 nature of the application, messy.
20 Q. And what was the consistency of
21 this sealer?
22 A. Very thick, very, very thick. You
23 could squeeze a little bit out of the tube and
24 let it sit there for about two or three minutes
25 before you used it.
85
1 Q. Whats a Pittsburg seal?
2 A. A Pittsburg seam is a seam that
3 looks like a P. As you interlock, the outer
4 side comes straight up. It comes around and
5 goes up. And the adjacent piece that goes
6 nestles inside the actual part that makes the
7 top of the P. And as you put them together,
8 if you look at it, it looks like a P. And you
9 take, I dont know what they use nowadays, but
10 a sheet metal hammer has got a specific
11 design. You use the side of the hammer a lot,
12 and you would tap it literally to close the
13 seam. And that would be it.
14 Q. What was the color, if you know, of
15 the sealer?
16 A. Different colors for different
17 applications. Sometimes you had red for temp.
18 Black was normal. White was clear for possibly
19 exposure. They varied. There was no one, it
20 all depended on where the ductwork was going to
21 be installed, sir. If youre going into a
22 boiler room, it was an entirely different
23 process. If you were going into an open mall,
24 it was an entirely different process. It all
25 depended.
86
1 Q. Did you observe your father using
2 this DAP sealer product that youve described?
3 A. Again, sir, he taught me.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us the number
5 of occasions that you used this particular
6 product over the years?
7 A. No. I do not know exactly how
8 many, but it was a pretty frequent thing to
9 use, pretty frequent product.
10 Q. Is this a product that would have
11 only been used in the field that you observed
12 your father using or would have been –
13 A. Shop and field, sir. Sorry, I
14 didnt let you finish. I apologize.
15 Q. And is this something that you
16 observed your father using both in the shop and
17 in the field?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. You also mentioned a DAP adhesive,
20 is that something different than the sealer
21 that youve talked about?
22 A. No. Sometimes you have a sealer
23 adhesive, and something that once put it
24 together its kind of together. Its done.
25 But then you have sealers that you can put
87
1 things together and you can still work with
2 them a little bit. Its just a different
3 application.
4 Ideally whenever youre using its
5 sealer of some kind, youre making it airtight,
6 watertight and giving it a lot of life. Or
7 youre making it so that it resists temperature
8 or it doesnt resist temperature. It just
9 depends on the application needed for the high
10 vac process.
11 Q. Is the adhesive product applied in
12 the same way as the sealer product that you
13 talked to us about?
14 A. Yes. Although as I stated earlier,
15 the 3M product is a sealer adhesive, but it
16 comes in a spray can.
17 Q. Now, were just talking about the
18 DAP products. So is the DAT adhesive something
19 that would have been –
20 A. A few times I saw a DAP product
21 that came in regular, say, kind of like a paint
22 can. And when you opened it up, it with was
23 grey. And when you were putting insulation on
24 ductwork, you would seal it with this grey
25 material. And like if you had, lets say you
88
1 had a piece of ductwork that was — now, Im
2 getting too technical here. You would use it
3 to seal.
4 Q. Is this something, a product that
5 you saw your father use?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how would that product be
8 applied in the last application you talked
9 about?
10 A. With a trowel. It was kind of like
11 a furnace cement, very high temperature. Very
12 high, very hot stuff it was made for.
13 Q. And would that be an application
14 that would have been done on a regular basis by
15 Folander in the course of its work?
16 A. Yes. Because they did a lot of
17 boiler room work, sir. And the boiler room,
18 even a human body youre not supposed to be in
19 there for extended time frame.
20 Q. The company that you talked about a
21 bit earlier, named Manhattan, you had indicated
22 to us that –
23 A. Manhattan Rayasbestos (sic), excuse
24 me for interrupting you. Manhattan Rayasbestos
25 thats what it was. And thank you for jogging
89
1 my memory.
2 Q. My pleasure. Do you know the kinds
3 products of products that Manhattan Raybestos
4 delivered to Folander in addition to the gloves
5 and blankets you previously mentioned?
6 A. Mostly welding supply and theres a
7 lot of applications where we needed ten gauge
8 sheet metal. Ten gauge is actually No. 7
9 metal. Its 164th of an inch lighter than
10 one-eighth and they delivered a lot of the
11 heavy stuff to us. They had the best pricing.
12 Q. Is it a metal product, sir?
13 A. Yes, it is, sir.
14 Q. Lets talk a little bit about the
15 gloves. Do you know who the manufacturer of
16 those gloves were?
17 A. Nah. They didnt really have a
18 name on them.
19 Q. Do you know who the manufacturer of
20 the blankets were that were delivered to –
21 A. Lincoln.
22 Q. And how do you know they were
23 Lincoln blankets?
24 A. Cause they said compliments of
25 Lincoln Electric right on them.
90
1 Q. Okay. And when they said
2 compliments of Lincoln Electric, does that mean
3 a company called Lincoln delivered them or that
4 they were delivered by Manhattan with the
5 Lincoln name on them?
6 A. No. I dont know what it meant.
7 All Im telling you is what it was.
8 Q. Okay. Are the Lincoln blankets
9 something that Manhattan Raybestos delivered to
10 Folander?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. In case you didnt hear me, yes.
14 MS. PLACITELLA: Theyll let you
15 know if they didnt hear you. Dont worry
16 about it.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 Q. The gloves that youve alluded to,
19 do you know whether or not the gloves contained
20 asbestos?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. Are the gloves something that you
23 observed your father wearing during the time
24 that he worked at Folander?
25 A. Yes. Getting gloves was a big
91
1 thing.
2 Q. Why was that?
3 A. When youre making $5 an hour and
4 gloves cost $12, thats a big thing for me
5 anyway. Everybody would get them around
6 Christmastime, Thanksgiving the vendor would
7 show up and everybody would get a pair of
8 gloves, and you took good care of them too.
9 Q. Can you describe these gloves?
10 A. We referred to them as railroad
11 gloves. They were grey. They had a, they came
12 up high. This part was opened so your shirt
13 would fit inside, and they were like a band
14 across the back. And they fit good. And as
15 they wore in, they were tough in the beginning,
16 you know its almost like if you did this with
17 the glove you would hear a crackle. It was
18 funny. It was a good solid durable glove.
19 When youre work in sheet metal like razors
20 edge, cause sheet metal is like this. You can
21 cut yourself really with sheet metal. Those
22 gloves they lasted.
23 Q. And were they five finger gloves?
24 A. Yes, they were, sir.
25 Q. What would be the use of the
92
1 blankets that would come into the shop?
2 A. Well, the welders, a lot of times
3 if you want to protect something, you know, it
4 what they call fire blanket. And if you want
5 to make a special transition and youre welding
6 overhead and the slag is falling on the metal
7 down here, it will stick to it and store it up.
8 And then youve got to grind it and then it
9 looks like heck. If you protect the metal with
10 the blanket, the blanket does not catch fire.
11 The welding sparks do not hurt it you know.
12 And when your done, you know, a lot of times
13 you can wet the blanket down.
14 As a matter of fact what we used to
15 do sometimes on a, if there was a lot of
16 welding to be done, you know, literally just
17 wet the blanket down and then when it dry out,
18 take it outside. Put it in the sun. Let it
19 dry and then fold it up nice and neat and put
20 it away. It was weird, though, those blankets
21 when they dried out. I dont know they just –
22 they got dusty.
23 Q. Did you father do welding for
24 Folander?
25 A. Yes, he did, sir.
93
1 Q. Did he do welding for Folander
2 during the entire time that you worked with
3 him?
4 A. No, not the entire time. It was a
5 need to do. It wasnt always. It was once in
6 a while.
7 Q. Every time that he did do welding
8 that you did observe, would he use one of the
9 blankets that were delivered to the shop?
10 A. Not every time.
11 Q. In response to an earlier answer
12 youve named another product. Youve talked
13 about Celotex roofing products. Can you tell
14 me a little bit, describe for me what those
15 Celotex roofing products were?
16 A. It comes in a board. Its about an
17 inch thick. A foot, a foot wide. Eight foot
18 long. And you would cut to your need.
19 Q. Do you know what that product was
20 used for?
21 A. Roofing material, sir. Also an
22 insulant.
23 Q. When you say roofing material,
24 would it be used to make a roof?
25 A. Make a roof, repair a roof, yes,
94
1 sir.
2 Q. Is that something that would only
3 be used in the field?
4 A. I never remember using it in shop.
5 I remember handling it in shop, not using it,
6 but loading it on trucks to be sent out to
7 jobs.
8 Q. And how did you know that it was a
9 Celotex product?
10 A. It said Celotex on it.
11 Q. Is it a product that you observed
12 your father use during the period that you
13 worked together?
14 A. Yes. In the field not in the shop,
15 sir.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Handling in the shop, yes.
18 Q. Would that product ever have to be
19 cut?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And how would that product get cut?
22 A. Usually out on the job. I mean Im
23 leaving the shop now. You want me to leave the
24 shop?
25 Q. Well, were going to get out in the
95
1 field in a little while.
2 MS. PLACITELLA: You mean the shop?
3 MR. SUSS: Right.
4 THE WITNESS: In the shop, sir, you
5 would be cutting that up.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. The shop would be like middle man.
8 Q. And when you got out into the
9 field, since were talking about the product
10 and who knows if Ill make sense of these notes
11 later on, how would that product be cut?
12 A. Well, the easiest way would be like
13 if you had a wood saw. You lay it out on we
14 horses. You lay out what pieces you needed.
15 You would take a wood saw, not a long one
16 actually, just a regular short saw and cut it.
17 And then you would — whatever application
18 necessary.
19 Q. Well, when you say whatever
20 application necessary, can you tell me the
21 kinds of application it would be used for?
22 A. Yes. As you were to go shopping,
23 Woodbridge Center, youll notice that on the
24 roof theres all kinds of ductwork, inlets and
25 vents. Thats the heart and sole of any high
96
1 vac system. You have your fresh air intake and
2 your exhaust for either boiler rooms or
3 whatever.
4 You have a hole in your roof. You
5 got it framed out with regular wood or metal or
6 steel or whatever the frame is. You would cut
7 this material to fit that frame. Then you
8 would seal the entire thing with roofing
9 cement, Karnak, Black Cat, whatever. Then you
10 would place a piece of metal flashing on the
11 top of it. Then the actual ductwork that was
12 either the register to vent the building or
13 draw fresh air supply, would be fitted right
14 inside there. Thin you would seal the entire
15 unit again with your roofing material, your
16 bonding agent. And you would have a complete
17 watertight seal that would last a very long
18 time.
19 Q. And what part of that process that
20 you described use a Celotex board?
21 A. The board would be the walls.
22 Q. Is the process that youve just
23 described to us something that was a regular an
24 usual part of the work that Folander did during
25 the time that you worked for Folander?
97
1 A. Yes, it was because whenever you
2 bid a job, you got the whole job. All the
3 flashing that surrounds the roof, anything
4 metal, any sheet metal, excuse me, not metal.
5 Anything sheet metal is your job. They fought
6 with the union for roofers for years but the
7 said roofers thats ours. They never won.
8 Sheet metal always did that.
9 Q. And is that a task, that is the one
10 you described, one that you observed your
11 father actually performing during the time that
12 you and he worked together at Folander?
13 A. Yes, again, he taught me how to do
14 it.
15 Q. Is it something that he did as part
16 of his regular duties for Folander during the
17 you worked together?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You mentioned another supplier
20 named Robert Keasbey?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you able to tell us the first
23 time timing you ever observed Robert Keasbey
24 making a delivery to Folander?
25 A. No, sir. I cannot.
98
1 Q. Do you remember the last time you
2 remember Keasbey making a delivery?
3 A. No, I cannot.
4 Q. Are you able to tell me what it is
5 that Keasbey delivered to Folander?
6 A. I believe they delivered a lot of
7 insulation. I seem to associate that and
8 roofing materials. As a matter of fact, Id
9 say roofing materials, yeah. I am trying to
10 remember how much they delivered.
11 Q. What kind ever installation do you
12 remember Keasbey delivering to Folander?
13 A. Four-by-eight sheets of standard
14 board Fiberglas insulation, roofing insulation,
15 a lot of our round ductwork that we would
16 install we bought that pre-made. You need a
17 special machine to make it. And we would buy
18 the round insulation for that. It came with
19 straps on it. You put on real easy. You cut
20 it real easy.
21 Q. This round ductwork that youve
22 just talked about, can you describe the size of
23 it?
24 A. Every size that you can imagine,
25 sir, and Im not trying to be rude with my
99
1 answer. Its anything from 4 inch to 32 inch.
2 You can use it for a trunk line. You can use
3 it for a return line. A lot of the vents that
4 you see in that ceiling, you see thats how
5 thats a that round register, youre going so
6 see round ductwork coming out of the trunk line
7 that will tie into that.
8 Now, thats suited to fit the
9 Celotex tile. Most times its a lot smaller so
10 you take the tile down, you cut a hole in it
11 and then you put it back and you mount your
12 register.
13 Q. How did that product come packaged
14 if it did come packaged?
15 A. Paper.
16 Q. In wrapping paper?
17 A. Are you talking about the metal?
18 Q. Im talking about the round –
19 A. Oh, no. It just came in links.
20 That came in, as a matter of fact, that came in
21 kind of long. I think they were 10 footers, 8
22 footers or 10 footers. But Ill say 8. Thats
23 the most common size in sheet metal, 8 foot.
24 Q. And it would be applied around
25 ductwork to insulate it?
100
1 A. Thats correct.
2 Q. Do you know what that material was
3 made of?
4 A. It varied you know. Sometimes it
5 was obviously Fiberglas, but there was also
6 other materials like a greyish type of foam.
7 But there was stuff that they used again in the
8 boiler rooms that was high heat. But it was
9 not real heavy, but it was dense. It was
10 dense.
11 Q. Do you know whether or not any of
12 the material that was delivered to Folander by
13 Robert Keasbey contained asbestos?
14 A. No, I do not.
15 Q. Youve talked about a company
16 called York Insulation, do you remember York
17 making deliveries to Folander?
18 A. Yes, I do, sir.
19 Q. Do you know what York delivered to
20 Folander?
21 A. They delivered insulation,
22 insulation brackets and support, and insulation
23 bending, which is, some insulation is split and
24 you have to put it on and then apply a band to
25 it to hold it on good and tight.
101
1 Q. Do you know what kind of insulation
2 that you York delivered? That is to say what
3 was its shape for example?
4 A. It was flat. It was round. It was
5 various sizes, and they used to deliver a DAP
6 cement with it for high heat application. And
7 that usually was for a one-gallon paint can.
8 Q. And do you know whether or not the,
9 well — strike that. The York insulation, the
10 insulation delivered by York, where would it be
11 applied, how would it be used?
12 A. It would be applied in the field.
13 It was usually, stuff like that was usually not
14 done in a shop. But to expediate some jobs,
15 pipe was delivered and you would put the
16 installation on it. And you would leave like a
17 one-inch gap so that the pipe could be put
18 together. And all the man in the field had to
19 do was put it together, you know, secure it
20 with a hanger and then take the cement and seal
21 it and then go. It depend cause when you bid
22 a job sometimes, you bid it for two weeks but
23 you know its going to take you three. But you
24 want the job so you do everything in the job to
25 assist the men in the field.
102
1 Q. What was the shape of the
2 insulation?
3 A. Round, flat. Never anything else.
4 It was always round and flat.
5 Q. The flat insulation, what would
6 that be applied to?
7 A. External ductwork.
8 Q. And the round insulation, what
9 would that be applied –
10 A. External ductwork.
11 Q. Onto ductwork?
12 A. Duct, d-u-c-t, sir.
13 Q. Right, not pipe?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know what the insulation
16 supplied by York was made of?
17 A. No, I dont, but, once again, it
18 was standard Fiberglas. It was high
19 temperature stuff. There was medium
20 temperature stuff. It varied in price.
21 Q. When you talked about Fiberglas and
22 then high temperature stuff, is there a
23 difference in the Fiberglas insulation and high
24 temperature stuff that youve talked about?
25 A. In the longevity. I mean they both
103
1 give you temperature control, but Fiberglas
2 breaks down fast, and its with terrible
3 vibration. And the other stuff they sell it
4 just durable or sack. Hard to work with, but
5 it lasts a lot longer cause it doesnt expand
6 or contract like Fiberglas. It doesnt break
7 down like Fiberglas does.
8 Q. Do you know what the nonFiberglas
9 insulation was made off?
10 A. No, do not.
11 Q. Do you know whether it contained
12 any asbestos?
13 A. No, I do not.
14 Q. Do you know whether any of the
15 products delivered by Folander by York
16 contained asbestos?
17 A. No, I do not, sir.
18 Q. You mentioned a company called
19 State Insulation.
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Do you know or do you recall what
22 State Insulation delivered to Folander?
23 A. Sir, I do not. I dont recall a
24 lot about State. I really dont believe they
25 were there a lot. I know they were there, but
104
1 I do not know how frequently.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not State
3 Insulation delivered any asbestos-containing
4 materials to Folander?
5 A. I do not, sir.
6 Q. We talked about a company called
7 Safeguard, did they make deliveries to
8 Folander?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know what Safeguard
11 delivered to Folander?
12 A. Duramite and Duradyne. They were
13 for expansion connections put together. That
14 was some nasty stuff.
15 Q. What is Duramite?
16 A. I dont know what it is.
17 Q. Lets talk about Prudential in
18 Newark. Did you work with your Father at that
19 location?
20 A. Not in Newark, sir, no.
21 Q. Did you work with your father at a
22 Prudential building located at some place else?
23 A. Yeah. I spent sometime at
24 Prudential. I think it was outside of
25 Livingston. Im trying to think of the name of
105
1 the town. I know my father worked at the
2 Newark location because he elaborated so.
3 Q. Okay. But you didnt work there
4 with him?
5 A. Not at that location with him.
6 Q. But you worked with him at a
7 different location?
8 A. Yeah. I want to say Livingston.
9 Its of exit 137 off the parkway. I can give
10 you directions. I dont have the name of the
11 town.
12 Q. How long did you work with your
13 father at that Prudential location?
14 A. I really dont know. It was
15 getting towards the end where I was, my, you
16 know, I just wasnt into it that much anymore I
17 knew I was going to be leaving soon because
18 thats when the gas crunch was coming up. The
19 United State Government was put a big crimp on
20 local, on every sheet metal, on every union in
21 the country.
22 Q. Are you able to estimate for me the
23 amount of time that you spent there? And if
24 you cant tell me, please tell me, and well
25 move on.
106
1 A. You know, Id say a couple of
2 months. The usual thing that we do would be
3 there for a couple of months. Id see him once
4 or twice a week. We worked together once,
5 twice a week. And then you would move onto
6 another job. Its the way that Folander
7 worked.
8 Q. Do you recall the nature of the
9 work that you did at the that location?
10 A. You know I really cant. I dont
11 remember the work that we did at Prudential.
12 Q. Do you remember anybody else from
13 Folander who worked there with you during the
14 time that you were there?
15 A. I can remember the faces. There
16 were a couple of other workers on the job I
17 mean you know, but it doesnt do you any good
18 for me to tell you Barry was there I mean.
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Was Barry there?
20 THE WITNESS: A guy named Barry was
21 there, yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. See, but, thats just it. Youd
24 call up guys from the union hall. You dont
25 send people out of the shop. The shop is busy,
107
1 designated people. I call you up, the business
2 and say, hey, I need three guys. You send me
3 three guys. Three guys you never saw before
4 show up. You work together you know and then
5 it adios and then you bump into somebody, the
6 same guys at another job.
7 Q. Other than yourself and your dad
8 and Mr. Folander, did Folander Sheet Metal
9 Company have any employees who worked only for
10 Folander during the time period that you worked
11 with them?
12 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection, the
13 question was vague.
14 Q. Did you understand my question?
15 Let me re-ask the question. Mr. Gerding, other
16 than your dad and yourself and Mr. Folander,
17 did Folander Sheet Metal have any other persons
18 who worked only for Folander during the time
19 period that you and your dad worked together?
20 A. Not that many.
21 Q. Okay. But there were some?
22 A. There was a handful that
23 consistently worked for John Folander Sheet
24 Metal.
25 Q. Do you remember the names of any of
108
1 those individuals?
2 A. Tommy Belamsambo worked there. My
3 father worked there. Freddy Farrell worked
4 there. Kirk Igleman worked there. Mike
5 Gerding worked there. Bobby Mylon was a
6 constant employee. Did I say Fred Farrell,
7 yes, I did. Howell Folander worked there.
8 John Folanders wife was the secretary there.
9 There was a guy that was a drafter, really
10 good.
11 These were people that were
12 consistently there that kept working. It was
13 about and eight or nine person shop. But its
14 just not the nature of the union to have, when
15 you have a company that owns a union, thats
16 one thing, but when you have fifty companies in
17 a union in a union hall, you got a job in each
18 ten men for a union, you call the union hall.
19 Youve got ten of them.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Next
21 question.
22 Q. Mr. Gerding, do you happen to
23 remember to the first name of Mr. Folanders
24 wife?
25 A. No. I always called her Mrs.
109
1 Folander. I know what she looked like when she
2 had my check.
3 Q. Do you know whether shes still
4 alive?
5 A. No. I wouldnt have any knowledge
6 of that, sir.
7 Q. Do you know the names of any
8 outside contractors who worked on the
9 Prudential building job?
10 A. No, sir. I cant think of any.
11 There was one contractor we worked for a lot.
12 John something. I just cant think of his last
13 name.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And it was a normal thing to work
16 with him. It he was pretty big too. If I
17 remember it. . .
18 Q. Youll let me know. Did you work
19 with your dad at the Martlin Hospital in
20 Newark?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember when you worked
23 there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell me please?
110
1 A. That was the last job I ever worked
2 on in my life with my father. It was 1973. It
3 was a complete tear up. They were building a
4 New Jersey School of Dentistry.
5 Q. Do you remember how long that job
6 lasted for you working with your father?
7 A. For me it was about, Ill say four
8 months. I have no idea how long it lasted.
9 Q. And when you which say complete
10 tear out, was that similar to what you
11 described earlier when you described the nature
12 of a tear up?
13 A. This was different because we were
14 in the boiler room a heck of a lot, and the
15 heat in that room was uh. . .
16 Q. What did you have to do in the to
17 boiler room as part of your duties?
18 A. We had t add major trunk lines to
19 go to the 14th floor cause the 14th floor was
20 a major storage facility and they were going to
21 turn it a room for patients. In a hospital
22 room you have every trade imaginable in one
23 room. And that was all.
24 Q. Did you ever have occasion to
25 notice the manufacturer of the boiler in that
111
1 boiler room?
2 A. You know 15 minutes ago could have
3 told you. Right now I cant think of it. That
4 irritates the heck out me.
5 Q. Other than yourself and your
6 father, were there other Folander employees who
7 were worked there or who were employed by
8 Folander?
9 A. Fred Farrell was working there.
10 Bobby Mylon was working there. These are the
11 best people though. You always had the best
12 start up, get the job done. Get it done
13 right. And when youre running a trunk line,
14 140 foot in the air, and youre off by an
15 eighth of an inch in the basement, you kind of
16 screw the pooch you know.
17 Q. Were there other contractors who
18 were working there that youre aware of during
19 the course of the time you were there?
20 A. Sir, there were numerous
21 contractors on the job, but Im sorry, but I
22 really cant — I just dont remember them.
23 Right here, Frank McBride, he was a big time
24 contractor that Folander did a lot work with.
25 Q. And youve –
112
1 A. Atlas Engineering, Incorporated,
2 Frank Driscoll, these are all people that
3 Folander did a lot of work with. McBride
4 especially did an awful lot of work with. And
5 the name on the front of that boiler is going
6 to keep me up tonight.
7 Q. Well, Im sorry about that. That
8 was not my intention. Lets — you jumped
9 ahead and you took a look at a different part
10 of the interrogatory answers by pointing to a
11 section where it was indicated outside
12 contractors with whom your dad would have
13 worked during the course of his career.
14 A. I apologize.
15 Q. Thats quite all right. And we
16 will return to those, if not today, hopefully
17 the next time when we all get together. Lets
18 see if we can though, this afternoon, if you
19 are okay to continue –
20 A. Im fine.
21 Q. — continue with the different job
22 sites that have been listed in the
23 interrogatory answers. Is it your recollection
24 that Frank McBride, however, was a contractor
25 at the Martlin Hospital job, or is that just
113
1 the name of a make contractor you remembered
2 generally?
3 A. I remembered Frank McBride on a lot
4 of jobs. John Folander and Frank McBride
5 worked together hand-in-hand a lot. I cant
6 say I remember him at the Martlin Hospital
7 job.
8 Q. Fair enough.
9 A. But I remember him at the New
10 Jersey School of Dentistry across the street,
11 which was also a sheet metal job done by John
12 Folander, and he was the general contractor.
13 But Martlin Hospital and New Jersey School of
14 Dentistry were not associated at that time.
15 Q. Well, did you work with your father
16 at the New Jersey School of Dentistry in
17 Newark?
18 A. No. He was there, but we were
19 there at different times.
20 Q. When you say you were there at
21 different times, does that mean you were not
22 employed by Folander when you were at the New
23 Jersey School of Dentistry?
24 A. I was there for about three days
25 and that was actually the end of my career.
114
1 But you have to understand, sir, Martlin
2 Hospital is here, New Jersey School of
3 Dentistry is here.
4 Q. Right.
5 A. You can jump off the roof and land
6 on the next one. Thats how close.
7 Q. Well, did you ever work your father
8 at the New Jersey School of Dentistry during
9 that three-day period?
10 A. No, I did not. I know he worked at
11 that location, but I did not work with him at
12 that location.
13 Q. Did you ever work with your father
14 at any Hess facility?
15 A. No, but I know he worked at the
16 Hess facility because it the was office complex
17 in Woodbridge.
18 Q. And how do you know that?
19 A. He told me.
20 Q. He told you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know when he worked there?
23 A. You know Id say early-eighties
24 because I was married for a few years then –
25 early-eighties.
115
1 Q. Do you know the nature of the work
2 that he did there while he was there?
3 A. I think it was all clean
4 installation. It was a brand new building. I
5 dont think there was anything special about
6 it.
7 Q. Do you know who may have been
8 working with him at that site?
9 A. No, sir I do not.
10 Q. Did your dad mention to you when
11 you and he discussed that site the name of any
12 outside contractors who were working there
13 while he was working there?
14 A. No, he did not, sir.
15 Q. Lets talk about the Hoffman-La
16 site in Nutley.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you work there with your dad?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Do you remember when you worked
21 there with him?
22 A. During my two and a half years on
23 the road I work with my dad. Just dont know.
24 Q. Are you able to estimate for me the
25 amount of time total that you would have spent
116
1 working at the Hoffmann-La Roche site in
2 Nutley?
3 A. Once again, maybe a month. I mean
4 depended on how long a job you know.
5 Q. Do you know the nature of the work
6 that was done at that site?
7 A. Yeah. That was a burn out, a pull
8 out, get it down.
9 MS. PLACITELLA: Excuse me? Burn
10 out?
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. They had some
12 kind of fire there and we had to get
13 everything out of the building and do it.
14 All the windows got blown out of the
15 place. They had to go up there and put
16 sheet metal all over the windows and seal
17 up the building. It was a real dirty
18 disgusting thing. Very bad job.
19 Q. What precisely do you recall your
20 father and yourself doing at that site?
21 A. Working side by side pulling
22 everything out of the building.
23 Q. When you say pulling everything
24 down, –
25 A. Taking it down. Im sorry, sir.
117
1 Im taking down the ductwork, the plumbing that
2 was in the way, cutting out the electrical
3 conduit that was in the way, the damage from
4 the fire, whatever was necessary to start
5 rejuvenating the building.
6 Q. Did that include knocking the
7 existing walls, taking down ceilings? Mean
8 were there other –
9 A. No, sir. There was not much to
10 knock down after that. It wasnt really a very
11 safe think to do, scary.
12 Q. Did you get involved in any new
13 construction while you were at the that site or
14 was it only a tear down?
15 A. No. It was just a tear off that I
16 know. There may have been more after that, but
17 not for me, no.
18 Q. Were there individuals who you
19 recall working with yourself and your father at
20 that site?
21 A. I think thats one of the very
22 first times I ever saw Tom Belamsambo go out on
23 a job.
24 Q. And in addition to the Folander
25 personnel, do you recall whether there were any
118
1 other outside contractors involved in the work
2 at the site where you –
3 A. Not at that location for that exact
4 time, no.
5 Q. The next to last site is M&M in
6 Hackettstown, New Jersey. Did you work there
7 with your dad?
8 A. No, I did not. I just ate all the
9 candy he brought home.
10 Q. Do you know when your dad worked
11 there?
12 A. No. I cant say I know when. See,
13 it was, no, I dont know when. It was an was
14 ongoing thing. He might have went there seven
15 or eight times a year for a day. I dont know
16 exactly how frequently, but, you know, they had
17 a couple of guys that stayed there all the
18 time. They just did whatever M&M told them to
19 do.
20 Q. When you say they had a couple of
21 guys who stayed there all the time, who is
22 they?
23 A. John Folander had employees on
24 site. I should have said Folander. Im sorry.
25 Q. Thats okay.
119
1 A. One of them was a guy named Burke.
2 I think his first name was Joe. Im not sure.
3 But you know, I think he just said Burke. It
4 was B-u-r-k-e. I think he pronounced his name
5 Burke.
6 Q. Did you ever have occasion to work
7 on a job with Mr. Burke?
8 A. No. I just heard his name. I met
9 him a couple of times cause John Folander used
10 to have really good Christmas parties for
11 everybody and Thanksgiving turkeys were given
12 out, you know, so all the employees and their
13 families would go there.
14 Q. What would be the nature of the job
15 that would require your father to go to a
16 facility like M&M for just a day?
17 A. Burke might need a hand doing
18 something. It might be a two-man job and M&M
19 didnt want to supply. It might have been –
20 the guy was, you know, just two people working
21 there maybe called out sick you know.
22 Q. Do you have any specific
23 information you can give to us about exactly
24 what your father did on those occasions when he
25 was at the M&M?
120
1 A. No, do not. I just know he brought
2 home candy, and I liked that.
3 Q. And did he ever indicate to you the
4 names of any other out side contractors who
5 would have been at M&M on those occasions when
6 he was there?
7 A. No, sir, I cannot.
8 Q. The last specific work site listed
9 in the answers to interrogatories is Sandoz
10 Pharmaceutical.
11 A. Yeah. Thats off of Route 10,
12 Paramus I believe it was. That eventually
13 became a whole different company.
14 Q. Did you work there with your
15 father?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. You recall remember when you worked
18 there?
19 A. Sometime after I stopped working in
20 the shop.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know the nature of
22 work that you and your father did at that
23 facility?
24 A. That was a constant, how would you
25 say renovation. Theyre always taking things
121
1 out, knocking out ductwork, putting up new,
2 adding. They did staircases there, fire
3 escapes there, walkways, handrails. Anything
4 Sandoz wanted John would do. There was nothing
5 wrong it, it was good work, good pay, you know,
6 but they were there pretty frequently.
7 Q. Would the installation of handrails
8 and fire escapes be general jobs that sheet
9 metal guys be called upon to do?
10 A. Not normally but it was highly
11 sought after. That stuff is like an erector
12 set. You by the steps. You buy the rails. You
13 bolt it together. You put a handrail together
14 and bingo. You buy it. Theres a lot of good
15 money in that.
16 Q. Do you know how much time
17 altogether that you would have you worked there
18 with your father at the Sandoz facility?
19 A. A couple of weeks I was there.
20 Yeah, and I think that my dad was there almost
21 every day with me. I know he was there a lot.
22 Q. And in addition to your dad and
23 yourself, were there any other individuals that
24 you recall working with you there?
25 A. I think that Kirk Igleman actually
122
1 identify left Folander and started working for
2 Sandoz. I think they became a different
3 company. I am not sure. I know John Mays
4 worked there for a while. Probably a couple of
5 other people from Folander, but I cant
6 remember exactly who. But I remember that
7 really got John mad.
8 I think he left John Folander to go
9 work for this cause it was a new company was
10 buying Sandoz or something like that. And they
11 wanted him because John Kirk was a smart guy.
12 He was no dummy. He knew his stuff.
13 Q. In addition to Folander employees,
14 do you recall during that couple of week period
15 whether there were any other outside
16 contractors who worked at that site?
17 A. I remember Munson Electric was
18 there. Munson was there. I cant remember any
19 other, sir, just Munson. They popped up at a
20 lot of places, and I think it was, what you
21 call it. I know Im skipping a lot, go ahead.
22 Q. Other than the work sites that
23 weve talk about here, do you recall any other
24 locations where you worked with your dad during
25 the time period that you were employed with
123
1 Folander Sheet Metal Company?
2 A. No, sir, I do not.
3 Q. We talked about a number of supply
4 houses earlier, who made deliveries to the
5 Folander shop, did supply houses with whom
6 Folander do business make deliveries to work
7 sites; do you recall?
8 A. I never saw that happen myself.
9 No, I dont know. Its possible. I guess if
10 there was a real urgent need, but I dont
11 remember.
12 MR. SUSS: Okay. Lets go off the
13 record for a moment.
14 (Whereupon discussion is held off
15 the record.)
16 Q. Mr. Gerding, in the answers to
17 interrogatories, youve indicated to us that
18 your dad was exposed to the various asbestos-
19 containing products while he worked. I guess
20 the general question I want to ask you is that
21 with regard to the many work sites that weve
22 talked about here this afternoon, other than
23 the Celotex floor tile, which you indicated was
24 marked as asbestos and the ceiling tile that
25 was designated asbestos; do you whether or not
124
1 your father was exposed to any asbestos-
2 containing material in any other job sites that
3 weve talked about?
4 A. My knowledge now today, now I know
5 that he was exposed to a heck of a lot. And
6 its got nothing to do from research. Its got
7 everything to with, you know, you asked the
8 right questions, Im going to give you the let
9 giver right answers you know. Do you ever
10 defend a steel mobile victim?
11 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Lets stick
12 to the question. Next question.
13 Q. Can you indicate to us any specific
14 work site that we have talked about that are
15 listed in the answers to interrogatories where
16 you believe that your father was exposed to an
17 asbestos-containing product?
18 A. I would say every one of them.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And the reason why I say that is
21 because I was there myself, and now I know what
22 I know. And it comes from training.
23 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Next
24 question.
25 Q. And the training that youre
125
1 talking about, what kind training is that?
2 A. Industrial training, reading Haz
3 Mat material. Reading whats on labels now.
4 Just going into a regular store and picking up
5 a can of WD40 and knowing what it says.
6 Knowing the products now, the labels now as
7 opposed to then. Nothing was labeled.
8 Everything today is labeled. You know data
9 material sheets, little books, all of it.
10 Q. Can you tell me with regard to the
11 list that weve gone through, and each of us
12 have in front of us, on which you work sites
13 you believe exposed your dad to asbestos-
14 containing materials.
15 MS. PLACITELLA: He already
16 answered that.
17 THE WITNESS: I believe I just
18 answered you. I said every one of them.
19 Q. Okay. Well, what kind of asbestos-
20 containing products was he exposed at Schering
21 Pharmaceutical?
22 A. Schering Pharmaceutical the boiler
23 room, the insulation band applied, the ductwork
24 that was put together with the special
25 sealants, the Centerteen (sic) pipe that had to
126
1 be put together for the vent lines. If you
2 wanted — Im sorry, go ahead.
3 Q. When you talked about sealants,
4 what sealants are you talking about that you
5 believe contained –
6 A. The Garlock sealant, sir. Sorry I
7 didnt wait for you to finish.
8 Q. Okay. So you believe that the
9 Garlock sealants exposed your dad to asbestos;
10 is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are there any other specific
13 products that you believe caused your father to
14 be exposed to asbestos at Schering?
15 A. At Schering I dont know how much
16 longer he was there after I was there. The
17 roofing material was most like exposure. Ill
18 just say, no, okay? All the products that him
19 and I used together to assembled this ductwork
20 I know and I fear for my own life in every one
21 of these companies and every site that I went
22 to too.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Okay. Were talking about my
25 father.
127
1 Q. Well, lets talk a little bit about
2 that. Youve talked about the materials that
3 you used to assemble the ductwork,
4 specifically, what materials are you referring
5 to?
6 A. I answered you. I said the
7 sealers, the applicators, the actual material
8 used because of the heat necessary, the
9 insulation that was put onto the ductwork to go
10 ahead and keep the ductwork safe and clean, not
11 the human. All of those things, sir. The
12 entire process of the boiler back then was so
13 very different than todays technology.
14 Q. Well, are you telling me that you
15 were exposed to asbestos because you were
16 working around a boiler?
17 A. No. I was exposed to asbestos
18 because the products that I used were not
19 labeled. If I saw a label, I would have read
20 it. Nine times out ten you want to read the
21 label just to find out the correct way to use
22 the product. Most of the labels didnt even
23 tell you that.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Okay. Next
25 question.
128
1 Q. Did you read the labels on products
2 that you used during the time that you were
3 working at Folander?
4 A. Most products came in without any
5 type of information. It came in Product of
6 Central Jersey Supply, Product of Passaic
7 Metal, Product of Elizabeth Industrial. It
8 wasnt, you know, they would tell you its oil
9 in a can. A 55-drum full of the stuff with no
10 label whatsoever, sir. I would have read, if I
11 had the ability to, but things were not
12 labeled.
13 Q. So are you saying that there were
14 no labels on any of the products or that you
15 didnt read the label?
16 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection. Thats
17 a mischaracterization, and objection also
18 as to vaguement. Do you want to rephrase
19 the question?
20 MR. SUSS: Not particularly but
21 Ill do it out of courtesy.
22 Q. Mr. Gerding, let me ask you this,
23 the products that you used, the sealants, were
24 there labels on the sealant products?
25 A. Yes, there were, sir.
129
1 Q. Did you read the labels?
2 A. Yes, I did, sir.
3 Q. And did your father also instruct
4 you on how to use the products?
5 A. Thats correct, sir.
6 Q. And did you read the label every
7 time that you used the product?
8 A. No. It wasnt necessary to repeat
9 the process. Once you read it and you used it,
10 you knew it.
11 Q. Okay. And the labels that were on
12 the products, what did they tell you, if
13 anything, about the product?
14 MS. PLACITELLA: Objection.
15 Objection as to form. I dont know what
16 product youre talking about.
17 THE WITNESS: The products that
18 were labeled –
19 MS. PLACITELLA: Wait, wait. I
20 dont understand the products that youre
21 talking about.
22 Q. Lets talk about the sealant
23 products that you talked about.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Which particular
25 sealant? Give me a name.
130
1 MR. SUSS: Well, Im using a name.
2 Mr. Gerding didnt use a name when he
3 answered my earlier question. He said
4 that sealers and the insulation and the
5 ductwork contained asbestos. And he said
6 there was nothing that told him anything
7 about it. Im just trying to find out
8 what he knew about it.
9 BY MR. SUSS:
10 Q. Lets talk about –
11 A. I can answer that question if
12 you –
13 MS. PLACITELLA: No. Theres no
14 question posed.
15 MR. SUSS: Well, there is a
16 question posed. He said he can answer it.
17 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, then repeat
18 it. Repeat it. I dont remember what it
19 was after your dissertation.
20 MR. SUSS: Yeah, but you dont have
21 to answer. Mr. Gerding can answer. If
22 you can answer the question, sir, please
23 do it.
24 MS. PLACITELLA: Dont answer the
25 question until I know what the question
131
1 is. Do you want to repeat the question?
2 MR. SUSS: No.
3 MS. PLACITELLA: Well, then lets
4 stop. Ive had enough for today. Its
5 five to five.
6 MR. SUSS: Okay.
7 (Deposition adjourned at 4:55 p.m.)
